# Taking it Seriously

An episode of [Rose City Politics](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247337855), 2 Sep 2023, 44 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/56669936/taking_it_seriously.mp3

Jon, Don, Melinda and Doug develop a rubric for evaluating city councillors. Rose City Politics is brought to you with the kind support of LiUNA Local 625: Building Better Communities. Support the show at Patreon.com/RoseCityPolitics. Read our stuff in Biz X Magazine and online at BizXMagazine.com or RoseCityPolitics.ca.

## Transcript

[0:25] I'm not you know what, I have started recording like three minutes ago,
[0:28] and uh so this is all just part of the fun. Yeah. We
[0:34] we told people they'd get to see the sausage. Okay, you you might
[0:39] you might want to just slide in another intro right now, just budd Hey
[0:43] everyone, if you're just tuning in right now, because as you all know,
[0:46] this is live terrestrial radio. That's how we broadcast, not in a
[0:49] podcast that's produced an intention beforehand. Uh, this is Rose City Politics.
[0:54] We are broadcasting live on tape right now, September the second. Our regular
[0:58] panel includes Doug Star, Tory MOLLINU mcgroad on, Mary, Philip Junior,
[1:00] and myself John Lidkey. We're on Patreon dot com, slash Rose City Politics
[1:04] and business magazine online everywhere and banned only somewhere. Rosity Politics broadcast live on
[1:10] tape because of Leuna six two five building better Communities. We're talking about a
[1:12] council report card Rubrick. We're showing you all how we do it behind the
[1:18] scenes, and we're talking about the first criteria for the Rubrick communication is sort
[1:23] of what we've landed on. Yeah, okay, John, your sound check
[1:26] was good. And if you're a patron subscriber, you get to its bestial
[1:30] bonus episode of us fucking up the plugging name Mick Microphones. Okay, that's
[1:36] really good. So yeah, communication it's really important. It's just so important
[1:44] to communicate effectively. That there was some really good insight in that in that
[1:49] like sort of nine minutes that may be lost forever. Now hopefully we'll be
[1:53] able to get that And I have no idea what kind of patchwork recording we're
[1:59] gonna up with, but to try to bring some of that substance back the
[2:05] You know, we were talking about media skills, and I think media skills
[2:07] matter, but it's to me it's there are it's one of those optional tools
[2:15] at the municipal level, and I think that that, like for doing the
[2:21] job of counselor media capability is an asset, but it's not necessary. I
[2:27] think the most important thing that it can have an impact in your day to
[2:30] day I believe, and I'm really interested in Melinda's perspective on this, but
[2:35] I believe that there is a perceived difference from the folks who do business with
[2:43] counselors based on whether they're they are the kind of politician who has ambition to
[2:49] serve at a higher level or whether they are not. Someone who is clearly
[2:53] doesn't have the tools to serve at a partisan level may not have the same
[2:59] kind oft as a counselor. I think there's something to that, I think,
[3:04] and I think it comes back to the part of the what I was
[3:06] trying to say before, which is that the test for the rumor or the
[3:10] report card for whether you are good at getting elected, and the rubor for
[3:15] whether you're good at being a counselor or not necessarily the same. So to
[3:20] get elected, as you pointed out in the in the part of the podcast
[3:23] at may or may not appear counselor cash Act wasn't particularly good at dealing with
[3:29] the media, but he was really good at dealing with the constituents and was
[3:30] able to get elected without those media skills. And he still really doesn't have
[3:35] them in the same way that counselor constante or the mayor for example might have
[3:38] them. Sure remember the fumbled no comment, Ye, right, So he's
[3:43] so that so the skills needed to get elected versus this, which I think
[3:47] probably at a higher level of you know, government, media skills are really
[3:52] critical may not be necessary to get yourself elected as a municipal counselor, but
[3:57] is media skill a proxy for your ability to communicate with the people who need
[4:00] to hear the message coming out of the council. I think there's a lot
[4:06] of people who know how to talk to people and know how to listen and
[4:11] who have those skills who are who don't have a clue about how to deal
[4:15] with the media. And and uh, you know, I'm thinking, like,
[4:19] don your profession certainly generates a lot of political candidates. In part I
[4:26] think it's just because you guys like having your name on signs, sure,
[4:30] looking at ourselves. But I think also partly because those skills are really important,
[4:35] Like what is your job if not communication? Sure? And and uh,
[4:41] like the point I'm making is there are many paths to having the tools
[4:46] to be effective as a counselor in terms of communicating with constituents, and media
[4:51] is just one path, right. Well, I think we saw a really
[4:54] good example of that in January this year with Counselor Counselor Agustino so He.
[5:00] It was in the media talking about the CTS, the Consumption Treatment Center,
[5:04] and it was like going seriously south for him, and he reverted to a
[5:10] communications style that he's very good at, which he started to go and talk
[5:13] to people where they were in the bars, on the street at meetings and
[5:17] left the media behind and went right to where people were. And I think
[5:20] having that capacity and so some counselors are better and you've talked about that Downto
[5:25] a councilor Sleeman for example, or a councilor cash. I good at talking
[5:29] to people where they are maybe not so good at talking to them in the
[5:31] media and trying to and being able to patch up that that particular daff In
[5:35] really very successfully ultimately sticking with the councilor Augustino because I had just shared this
[5:41] in our chat earlier today. Remember he had asked counsel to come back about
[5:46] a QR code donation portal for panhandling, so as to remove the need to
[5:54] actually provide cash directly to people that are panhandling, and then instead the city
[5:58] would collect the money through an app and then it would be dispersed equally.
[6:01] I don't know how that process would work. Anyways, he made the suggestion.
[6:04] Administration has come back and said no, it's a dumb idea. We
[6:08] looked into the other cities where it's being done, and it really doesn't work
[6:12] that well. And I think it's important to note that those other cities are
[6:15] in the United States, where you can pretty well just be like picked up
[6:18] by the cops and driven to another city, whereas like, we've got a
[6:20] whole different set of like laws here. So I think that it's more of
[6:25] like in the US, like this policy is like, you know, it
[6:29] looks nice and it's all well and good, but if you're caught pandel in
[6:31] handling, yeah, we're going to drive you away, so swamp down by
[6:34] the inalligators. It didn't work here. But regardless all that to say,
[6:38] the media called up councilor Augustino and went, hey, your thing failed.
[6:42] And there's a really interesting quote from him, and without reading it and directly
[6:46] but to paraphrase it, he just said, look, I don't I don't
[6:49] take this as a winner. I don't take it as a loss. That's
[6:51] not how this should be looked at. I'm taking every idea. I see
[6:55] you throwing it at the wall and hopefully something sticks. And that's how we're
[6:58] going to, you know, end up with a community. And what an
[7:00] interesting way to frame it, because you know, some counselors would have responded
[7:03] by getting their heels into the ground, aggressively defending themselves and you know,
[7:09] not backing down, whereas he just went, oh, well, we'll go
[7:12] on to the next one. And I think it's such an interesting strategy that
[7:15] he deployed, if the one that, quite frankly, I've never seen in
[7:17] local politics. So so Rinaldo I want to talk about this because I feel
[7:23] so fascinated by this, Like that approach I think is really interesting. The
[7:30] idea of counsel questions as brainstorming. It's probably how it should be. It's
[7:36] probably like if you if you don't think about all the apparatus of democratic politics
[7:45] that we've developed over the last four thousand years, it's like, that's the
[7:48] way it should be. It's just that's not how we do it. But
[7:51] I think I think that what this instance kind of crystallized for me is that
[8:01] there's a lot more strategy behind Agastino's choices than I gave him credit for before.
[8:11] This is really adroit. He is sending a bunch of messages at once,
[8:18] and I find it, I find it really impressive, and I think
[8:22] that, like, it's really interesting to see how people's perception of Rinaldo has
[8:28] evolved over the course of the last year. And I don't know if it's
[8:33] a metric of success or not, but like the city has actually gotten to
[8:39] know Rinaldo since he got elected. And I think that that's not unique to
[8:46] me, that perception of him has changed. And I don't know that any
[8:50] other counselor can say that that there has been an evolution of the public perception
[8:56] of them in the months since the election. And he He's not the only
[9:00] one who's trying. We just it's I think Dawn wants again in I wanted
[9:03] to say to bring this back to the to the Rubrick. Sure is having
[9:07] good ideas or being creative a criteria for being an effective counselor. They haven't
[9:15] any ideas, so and that that sounds, you know, kind of dismissive.
[9:20] But honestly, there's so many counselors I've seen over the years who their
[9:22] whole strategy is don't say anything and don't cause any trouble. You know.
[9:28] I guess there's two things with Ronaldo's strategy. I guess what concerns me is
[9:33] my perception of Windsor. You know, over the last twenty three years since
[9:35] I've been back here, is any good idea that comes out. It seems
[9:39] like administration's job is to kill it and say why we can't do it,
[9:43] and I'll never work here. That is a very Windsor thing. We can't
[9:46] do that here because of whatever. So I think the risk Counselor Augustino has
[9:52] when he does this kind of stuff, he's putting too much confidence in the
[9:56] people who are going to run these ideas through the meat grinder to come up
[10:01] with a valid answer or or has he taken that into account. I don't
[10:05] know. It depends how he's doing it, Like you say, is he
[10:07] just more like Johnson is just throwing a blank at the wall and seeing what
[10:11] sticks, which is fine, but what's gonna stick is going to be decided
[10:16] down by administration. But it's not just throwing stuff at the wall. It's
[10:20] like he Rinaldo has been pretty single mindedly focused on a very small number of
[10:28] issues in terms of the things that he puts forward. And and I think
[10:35] that the benefit that he's getting from all this is that everybody, every person
[10:39] in Windsor who sets one foot Downtown, understands that this is this is a
[10:45] neighborhood in terrible state, in crisis, big problems, big opportunity, but
[10:50] big problems. Or Rinaldo is acknowledging those problems, and he is focused on
[11:01] idea, idea, idea, idea, idea. Try it, it fails,
[11:05] move on. But that I don't think that like if you're if you
[11:11] were setting out to orchestrate a campaign to create the impression that you were relentlessly
[11:20] focused on the most important issue to your constituents, it would look a whole
[11:24] lot like everything Ronaldo has done since he's been elected, and you know,
[11:30] so like I have already written down communication, and then this sort of shifted
[11:33] into a new Rubert point. I think ideas and innovation, and while I
[11:37] was writing those down, I was about to write implementation. And then our
[11:41] conversation just sort of went to where it's at and it raises a really interesting
[11:46] point. Doesn't matter if your ideas don't get through. Ronaldo doesn't control no
[11:50] counts or control's administration. Right if they come back and say no, you
[11:54] have no bearing on that process. Actually know who else was like that?
[11:58] Eddie Francis was like that a lot throughout all kinds of what people might say,
[12:01] we're crazy ideas from you know, the water way down here, the
[12:05] canal. But least he was throwing ideas out and I think Ronaldo's kind of
[12:09] taking that kind of strategy too. I can see the similarities between the two.
[12:13] So yeah, so you've the very different things. I don't think the
[12:16] implementation is all that important because you can't control administration and you can't control the
[12:20] way council is going to vote. I'd say the vote is more important than
[12:24] administration, but a vote can be killed by the administration recommendation. Yeah,
[12:28] so I think I see almost two rubrics there. So one is are you
[12:31] good at getting ideas out there? And we can look at our eleven counselors,
[12:35] ten councilors in the mayor and say who's good at ideas. I think
[12:39] the other one, which I had on my list, as political savvy,
[12:41] but we might call it more, you know, perhaps this snoughtily getting the
[12:46] votes. I think the capacity the vote. Okay, well, whipping the
[12:52] votes, I mean maybe the mayor whips the votes, but the capacity of
[12:54] any individual counselor to get the votes to get the stuff they want on done
[12:58] is different than munications and different than having ideas, but it's an equally strong
[13:03] important part of the crit I think. So I want to talk about ideas
[13:07] for a minute, but I also want to talk about that because I think
[13:09] that is actually a critically important piece. Ideas are worthless, Okay, And
[13:16] maybe maybe maybe I'm jaded and biased because of my profession. Do you guys
[13:22] know how many fucking ideas I hear in a month? And like they're good,
[13:28] bad, in different, doesn't matter. Why would you say something so
[13:31] controversial yet so brave? The point, the point I'm making is that ideas
[13:41] are are not what matters. What matters is the process that you go through
[13:46] to evaluate the ideas and then and then implement and actually make something happen.
[13:52] So what what? And And also like, I do not care if if
[13:58] a counselor is originating any ideas themselves. In fact, I think my preference
[14:03] would be that they're not. I think that I like, ideas are commonplace,
[14:09] and a counselor is going to hear lots and lots and lots of people's
[14:13] ideas. Okay, I've said it so much that that word is like losing
[14:18] its meaning now. But and and and so I think that there it actually
[14:24] is a communication. Like I'm not saying that we shouldn't talk about ideas and
[14:28] innovation, but like for a city counselor the the the skill around ideation,
[14:35] in my opinion, is to be able to sift through all of the things
[14:41] coming your way and identify opportunities that are feasible right that that can be implemented
[14:50] and that could conceivably solve the problem right that, like, and then can
[14:56] I package it? Can I package this? And can I you know,
[15:00] do all the other things that I have to do, like generate support around
[15:03] the table and whatnot. So that's ideas. I think I think that the
[15:07] like, you got to be careful because I think that there is a lot
[15:13] of times when people think that just being the idea guy has intrinsic value or
[15:18] is good. And generally speaking, those are the people who most need to
[15:22] have a sock full of manure in their mouth instead of pocket. It's gonna
[15:28] be you know, mono rails and gondolas is what it is, exactly.
[15:33] But on so so on the bins to subtweet anyone in particular, zip lines,
[15:41] folks, we just need a zip line it's cheaper. Jesus Christ,
[15:46] this is no, We're not doing another gondola. So we decided we're always
[15:52] doing this Saturday after Yeah, this is a lot of time, Okay,
[15:56] I got to collect myself. So so managing the caucus, engaging with the
[16:03] caucus, right U, and engaging with administration like all of that, engaging
[16:08] with the machinery of government and the decision making machinery to bend it to your
[16:11] will. I think that, Melinda, honestly, like using the distinction that
[16:18] you drew between skills that get you elected and skills that make you effective in
[16:22] office, Knowing how to pull the levers to get the outcome you want is
[16:25] the skill. So I'm gonna actually going to turn to down if it.
[16:29] So you said an initiating think a little while ago about about how you know,
[16:32] for most of the councilors are just they're you know, doing what you're
[16:36] told. You're having ideas is not helpful. You know, being a communicator
[16:41] is not necessary. So to what to what ex it do you see that
[16:44] you know that question of like the ability to get things done or get the
[16:47] get the boats ut Like I look around the current council table and I think,
[16:49] how would I score or you know, all those different wards on did
[16:52] they get did they have a something they want it done? And did they
[16:56] get it done? And how did they go about doing that? And I'm
[17:00] and I'm at a loss. There's a few of them. I was like,
[17:02] oh, I've even forgot that person. Is even the like thing?
[17:03] Well one hundred percent? Yeah, I mean, there's a few counselors who've
[17:06] just kind of disappeared us off into the ether, I mean, and some
[17:08] of them. You know, Ronaldo came out strong and kind of shit the
[17:14] bed a little bit with the whole CTS thing. And you know, Mark
[17:15] McKenzie was part of that too. He was very anti that whole situation,
[17:19] and he's kind of just quieted down because it did not turn out well for
[17:22] him. Ronaldo, I think he's still in the he's still in contention.
[17:27] Backyard Smokers was a good one. Etr blocking a rong. He's still fighting,
[17:34] he's swinging, so all right, fine, we'll give him that one,
[17:40] I think. I mean, unfortunately, you know, I've been doing
[17:42] this show for a long time and been kind of paying attention to politics for
[17:45] a long time, and windsor the way the things get things done is make
[17:49] sure the mayor can frame it as his idea. So if you can,
[17:52] and especially now was with the strong mayor situation, the only way, look,
[17:57] we understand what the mayor's person he is, like, the only way
[18:00] you're going to get anything done is to get him onside. And if you
[18:04] can't get him inside, you can have the greatest mono rail or gone to
[18:07] the plan in the world. It is never going to happen. So you're
[18:14] the kid trying to figure out how do I convince my parents to take me
[18:17] to Disney World. Dad, there's a Hooters along the way. Ye'll do
[18:22] it, Dad, So simple was not one of the criteria that's way down
[18:32] on the list, but I won't say it's not one of the creds.
[18:33] Okay, Well, let's keep moving forward. So we got communication, ideas,
[18:37] innovation, getting the votes, and we can detract from the list at
[18:40] the end when we get through it all. Yep, Doug, Melda,
[18:42] sorry, i'd be because I made a list because you know you all know
[18:45] me fancy. So this is kind of two parts of the same question.
[18:52] Knowledge or like what you know about the sector, like your basic you know
[18:57] understanding what is you're supposed to be doing as a counselor combine with lens by
[19:03] lens, I mean the perspective that you bring to the table. To what
[19:06] extent are either of those are together those two things kind of score to be
[19:11] scoreable criteria for being a competent counselor. So. Something I've been probably saying
[19:15] way too much lately is for all politicians of every level, the most important
[19:22] thing to know is what you don't know. And you know, development seems
[19:27] to be the top of it the day because a lot of the thing going
[19:30] on in the province right now. If you look at our counselors and I'm
[19:34] not trying to make you know, I'm not trying to be level on any
[19:37] of them, but in big picture things, whether it's development, housingco like,
[19:41] none of them have any experience in this. So it's important for them
[19:45] to understand that they are certainly not the smartest people in the room. And
[19:48] I think the problem is sometimes they get rolled over by people who are a
[19:51] lot smarter than they are about any given topic, and that's how they get
[19:53] in trouble a little bit. So I think it's I think that's important,
[19:57] but I think it like I said, I think it's more and understand that
[20:00] there's gonna be a lot of things that are presented to you and you have
[20:03] no clue as to what is good, bad, or indifferent. And it
[20:07] is your job not to pretend, because there are some counselors who pretend they
[20:11] know everything, and I will include the mayor in that situation, and they
[20:15] get themselves in trouble and get the city in trouble, begains. They come
[20:18] up with stupid decisions on things they really have no knowledge, and then development
[20:22] will be certainly one of the big ones. I think that's a really important
[20:26] point. I can't stand when you hear counselors going on, you know,
[20:30] especially when you development such an easy one to talk about, Like, you're
[20:33] not an architect, you're not a re builder, you're not a builder,
[20:37] you're not a developer, you're not okay, you're a landowner. Congratulations does
[20:41] not make you qualified to give your own opinions on this, Yeah, like
[20:45] your opinions, like when you were talking about ideas, Like your opinions are
[20:48] fucking worthless. What you need to do is make a decision amongst the rest
[20:52] of your counselors as to whether or not what the smart people are recommending if
[20:56] you want to do it or not, and then you get to on it,
[20:59] and that's it. I think I don't want your opinion having a strong
[21:02] bullshit detector in there, because just because the experts are coming to the table
[21:04] doesn't mean they're telling you the truth about the right. So you don't know
[21:08] much about development, but your bullshit detector says, those two things you're telling
[21:12] me can't be true at the same time, So then what if right?
[21:15] But that's the skill I think it's actually like it's kind of a like it's
[21:18] an executive or CEO kind of skill set. Like you know, you don't
[21:22] expect that the CEO of still antists will understand anything about how like the battery
[21:29] system works or is constructed or is designed. That's not their job. But
[21:33] their job is to resolve disputes between people who do know. You just describe
[21:37] the plot, right the NBC show that's about cars right now? Oh man,
[21:41] it's lip that's literally a television show. They bring in a CEO who's
[21:45] not who's from like Package Goods, who becomes the CEO of one of the
[21:48] big three and or like it's another fourth brand or whatever that it's just like
[21:52] whatever, I've still Kansas soup. What's the difference with a car? It's
[21:56] right, pretty funny, but I mean there's like it makes sense though books.
[22:00] So there have been some counselors over the years when it's you know,
[22:04] obviously for people don't know I've been a real estate for twenty three years who
[22:07] have called me about stuff like this. Hey, this has been presented to
[22:11] me. Tell me if this is bullshit or not, and I tell them
[22:15] you're no, he is. I'm just I'm not saying all of them.
[22:21] I'm just saying a couple and this is I have a very narrow focus.
[22:26] Any counselor needs to know anything about real estate or bass playing, I'm the
[22:30] guy to call anything else. Don't call me because I'm probably not a great
[22:34] person to throw ideas off. That's a really good point, like knowing what
[22:38] you don't know and then knowing who to ask. Well, and like you
[22:41] guys are saying, I think it's it's important to reach out to people who
[22:45] do know about this because I think some like you were saying you're bullshit meter
[22:49] I think and again we'll just use development because that's the easy one developers will
[22:52] go in todd counselors and they can sell anything to make it sound like a
[22:56] fantastic idea. But it's important to not just take their word for it,
[23:00] even if you don't have the bullshit meter. Forget me asking other reels that
[23:04] agent. Ask a developer or a builder that you know who's not involved in
[23:08] this project, and get outside of advice. I guess would either. So
[23:11] I want to draw a negative example here. You know who was horrible at
[23:18] this? Yeah, because he thought he knew everything. Also, we talked
[23:23] about professions that are good that give you the skills that tend to enhance your
[23:30] abilities as a counselor. I'm just speculating, but I wonder if being a
[23:36] teacher would contribute to being a ship counselor. Because here's the thing. Like
[23:41] Barelli, in my estimation watching him a counsel, he wanted to be the
[23:48] one who knew more than everybody in the room. Like he was desperate to
[23:51] always be the one with the idea and to be the one who had the
[23:56] insight that no one else in the room was capable of having. Makes a
[24:00] lot of sense when you realize he spent a ton of his professional right life
[24:03] in a room full of fourteen year olds like I think, yeah, to
[24:08] restore our leadership of teachers, I think the teacher would actually be a guys
[24:14] would be a really good good profession have to become a counselor because we have
[24:18] Rlinda's doing good cop right now. You have to know a lot of things,
[24:22] a little bit about a lot of things, and you have to know
[24:23] when you don't know. But I think being a lousy teacher is the issue.
[24:30] And so it goes and thinking and thinking that everyone around you is fourteen,
[24:33] yes, I think, and that fourteen year olds have nothing useful work
[24:37] on. There's right, that there is, Yes, there is no difference
[24:41] between the people in the council chambers and classroom of fourteen year old because he
[24:45] could not discern a difference, right, which tells you a lot about Paul
[24:49] BURRELLI guy was a walking embodiment of I think the teaching profession in winch would
[24:55] all say as a as a to a person that guy is not one of
[24:57] us. Okay, teachers, you can photoshop Melinda Outie or RCP dark boards,
[25:04] you people, because I'm gonna throw myself right in the middle of that
[25:07] dark board right now, on fucking face, right at the middle. I
[25:11] mean, so there's a saying in the real estate industry, and I would
[25:15] like to apologize everybody, this is gonna offend, But there's three teachers.
[25:18] There's no We're not that rude like that. But there are three people who
[25:23] we all know are very difficult to deal with in real estate. It's engineers,
[25:29] it's police officers, and teachers. Okay, I thought you were gonna
[25:32] saying lawyers like we dodge explawyers. Yeah, they're just like us, so
[25:34] we understand them very well. But what's it like the cell house to a
[25:38] doctor, they're usually pretty good. Interesting because they kind of do know what
[25:42] they don't know. And I think that's the problem. Interesting, that's the
[25:47] problem with teachers. I don't think Barelli was a special case. In my
[25:52] experience, and in my experience with lots of people I know in real estate,
[25:56] teachers are very difficult to deal with because they think ain't know everything on
[26:02] the money. Just like thanks, we're never getting rich off this podcast.
[26:06] Next up on our CP Don explains all the different ethnic groups and what real
[26:11] estate agents say about that. You know the problem with the Swedes. I
[26:15] really like the idea of you saying that Paul Barelli's not special. Paul Brelli
[26:21] is incredibly special. He's one of a kind. Well, look at he's
[26:23] been gone for how long and we're still talking about him like he's like the
[26:29] Trump of windsor politics in the media. He's like that LP. You keep
[26:33] around, you've got to put the hits back on every now and then.
[26:36] Okay, So we've got communication, ideas, innovation, getting the votes,
[26:38] knowledge and smarts. We've talked about, Doug, your idea of when you
[26:42] like, what ideas to throw out when they're good ones, like having that
[26:47] ability sort of like a newspaper editor. What your inclusion and euro obsion.
[26:52] Melinda, You've talked about lens and political savvy. I'm going to talk about
[26:56] Can I just add a bit about Len's story before you go on, John,
[26:59] because he ties to what we were just saying as an example, which
[27:02] was that the other example a council that had to do with lens and knowledge
[27:06] was and bullshit detectors was the anti racism the first attempt at an anti racism
[27:11] strategy, which was the Mayor's office offering a contract directly to multi council Council
[27:15] and to all my dear friends and Multi Culture Council, it's not about you.
[27:18] The bullshit on display was outrageous, but there was no one at that
[27:23] council table who experiences racism on a daily basis who was able to actually say,
[27:30] hold their phone, this is utter nonsense. Members of the public tried
[27:33] to get onto the agenda and tell them that this was not the right way
[27:37] to approach this, but they were also happy with themselves that they voted for
[27:40] and then Multi Council Council correctly backed out almost immediately. So I think that
[27:45] your lands, whether you're coming from the perspective between female or from a visible
[27:48] minority or racialized minority, whether you are a gender non conforming, whether you
[27:53] have a disability, is that I mean you can't you can't say, well,
[27:57] no one on council is ever going to get an ann section of the
[28:00] rubric. But having consciousness perhaps of the necessity of that one a criteria for
[28:04] being an effective against I just I don't know how you would mark that because
[28:10] it's so subjective, right, I mean, everybody has a different career,
[28:12] they all come from different places. Are you giving, like, how do
[28:15] you assess someone coming from, you know, a non gender conforming background as
[28:21] a criteria for politics other than what I would argue is throwing you know,
[28:26] lens your own mission and inclusion under the modern category of just political savvy.
[28:32] And I think sure, I think that that's all about your ability to ability
[28:34] to understand a situation and then articulate rights. Yeah kind of yeah, which
[28:41] sorry, Yeah, So we're talking about a lot here about skills, right.
[28:47] We have come up I think, with a good rubric so far in
[28:51] terms of what are the skills that we should be measuring, But there are
[28:56] also like attributes, and the one that, in reflecting on everything that we've
[29:03] talked about, none of these would be a majority decider in my view,
[29:08] character and integrity. To me, that is the that is the criteria that
[29:15] is fifty one percent of your mark, because if you don't have character and
[29:21] integrity, you can't pass well. I think voters have a bullshit meter too,
[29:26] when they can figure it out pretty quick if you're a bullshit or not.
[29:30] Sometimes sometimes and that so, like when we were talking about media and
[29:37] the and the media skills and stuff, the thing that kept kept coming to
[29:42] my mind was does it even matter anymore? Because like media, like if
[29:47] you but really, if you're a city if you're a city counselor, and
[29:49] you don't particularly want to be in the media, it's not a problem.
[29:55] No, one's just if you don't do not literally trip on your dick,
[29:59] and you will be fine, right Like that's you'll be fine. Nobody will
[30:03] seek you out and if you say no, it's not going to have any
[30:06] negative consequences. It's just not the way it was twenty years ago. But
[30:11] then then that brings me to how do residents voters figure out the character and
[30:19] integrity of their representatives if they have the only time that you get to see
[30:23] them in action is really the theater of the council table. How many pay
[30:30] attention, Oh, virtually not. Yeah, So my perception, I think
[30:34] it depends what worders. So someone like councilor Augustine, you know, he's
[30:37] in the high profile ward that does have a lot of horrible issues. They're
[30:41] doing this right now. He has to be out there, he has to
[30:44] be talking on the media, he has to be in your face kind of
[30:48] let's go councilor Genia X probably one of the most boring wards out there.
[30:52] As long as the place doesn't burn down, they're not even going to notice
[30:56] what's going on politically out there, which I think that's actually come true for
[31:00] her in some ways when they were it was terrible flooding her. You know,
[31:04] numbers in the election started to the challenged the other pecause people felt like
[31:08] we're having we're feeling pain, and we're not really seeing our counselor helping us.
[31:12] So if we can digress and just talk about Geniak for a second,
[31:15] because I'm fascinated, right, one of the most powerful people in Windsor,
[31:19] Yeah, and maintains an incredibly low profile considering that she is an elected official
[31:26] and has been for so many years. It's such an interesting person to me
[31:30] and like, and I mean this sincerely, like the one like an enigma.
[31:34] You know, Geniak is one of the most interesting people on council because
[31:37] I think there is so much going on, like inside her head that we
[31:44] never see. I think she's learned very effectively how to navigate different mayors,
[31:48] different administrations and just kind of walk her way through it. So my question
[31:55] about your comment is she probably one of the most powerful people on council will
[32:00] due to duration or ability. I think duration has a lot to do with
[32:04] it, and I also think ability, but but I want to I want
[32:07] to get back to like to to actually addressing Melinda's Melenda's point, Geniac,
[32:14] like Geniac is super savvy, right and has a lot of tools, But
[32:27] Geniac doesn't have any particular need to be out there. The thing that I
[32:31] detect, though, and you mentioned and Melinda on the election results in ward
[32:37] six, is that there is she has a limited amount of support in her
[32:43] award. It's enough for her to get re elected and possibly, you know,
[32:47] as long as she wants to. But there is also a like a
[32:52] deep well spring of discontent with Geniac, and I think that it has developed
[32:58] and hardened over years. And with all due respect to the folks who are
[33:02] courageous enough to put their name up in ward six, there hasn't really been
[33:07] a standout candidate to take a shot at Geniac in many, many years,
[33:14] if ever, and I suspect that if a truly capable person were to,
[33:21] you know, with all the things that you need, were to run against
[33:23] her, that it would not be so inevitable that she would win. Do
[33:27] you think that her issues are citywide more so as opposed to specific to reward.
[33:36] Yes, Like some of the negatives that people say about councilor geniac don't
[33:39] really have anything to do with reward. It's maybe even social issues or whatever
[33:44] her opinions are and some of the things that are going on downtown. I
[33:46] think she reflects her constituents opinions and prejudices. But that was kind of my
[33:52] point. I think you're right on a citywide scale, so maybe running for
[33:57] mayor might be hard for her, but I think her ward, she is
[34:00] her ward. That's they all think. Like's not they often, but the
[34:04] people vote, that's how they feel about these issues. Far from the first
[34:07] time I've said it on this show, I think that the city would have
[34:10] been way better off if she had run for mayor in fourteen instead of Dilkins.
[34:14] And I think she would have crushed it if she did. Oh yeah,
[34:16] yeah, yeah, you're probably right. So that sort of suggests a
[34:22] question of whether the ability to get re elected. So while we're not looking
[34:25] at the criteria for how to get elected, is the ability to get reelected
[34:30] a criteria for being an effective counselor? Yes, So that would you add
[34:35] that to our lists? I think those are two different tops because I think
[34:39] getting elected as a whole process. You know I ran and obviously lost in
[34:44] you know, John's and Ed ran at the same time. So the process
[34:46] of initially getting elected, I think is very different than not, pardon my
[34:52] French, fucking up so bad that you can't get re elected because the reality
[34:57] is most people are just voting for the same verse over and over again unless
[35:00] they did something stupid. So I think that's why Joanne gets elected. I
[35:04] don't think she does it. I think no. But you're right, well,
[35:06] so I think there's I think that's two different criteria getting elected and getting
[35:09] reelected. It's a different shame. You gotta play well because incumbency comes with
[35:13] so much at your disposal. You're like, just as you said, the
[35:15] theater of counsel looking the part. You put a suit on and a tie
[35:20] or dress up and you look, get some photos you are a counselor it
[35:22] looks good. It's all about perception. Yeah, you know, I I
[35:27] said all that stuff about somebody potentially beating geniac, Well, it's easy to
[35:30] say because no one will ever run against her. Who's good. That will
[35:35] never find out because that's not how it works. Right. You get you
[35:37] wait until she's going right, You're not going to run unless you have a
[35:40] complete idiot like we have seen him war ten a few times and then yeah,
[35:45] but he gets and he got re elected. No he didn't. Didn
[35:49] he win twice? Are you talking about? Are you talking about talking?
[35:53] Sorry made me only got elected once and while Barelli only go I'm like,
[35:57] okay, I thought al who was elected twice? I really really like that.
[36:01] You said that idiot in Ward ten and three different people had three different
[36:07] different we all had three different idiots. We chose pull up your ten.
[36:14] Sorry, I thought Paul got re elected ones. Okay, I was my
[36:15] stagment. Okay, let's do a rundown then as to where we stand right
[36:20] now? Communication, ideas and innovation getting the votes, knowledge and smarts,
[36:24] political savvy, a bullshit detector, I added on, because we talked about
[36:29] but I didn't mention that already. Character and integrity dug your point. And
[36:32] now we're at re electability. Do we think that there's more to add to
[36:37] that list? Or did we naturally come to the end with re electability because
[36:39] that is sort of that should natural. Sod pot. Just somebody who I
[36:45] will bring up who is like a perfect encapsulates my point perfectly. Darcy Renold
[36:51] is running against Fred Francis twice. If Darcy Renault had run in any board
[36:54] at any given time, she would have won except that one. Yeah,
[36:58] because Fred's there. If Fred wasn't there, she would have been our counselor.
[37:01] And if she had worked. I bet if she had ran on ward
[37:04] three as I suggested to her, and she didn't listen to me, or
[37:07] any ward that was open, she would have won. She would be a
[37:09] great counselor. But you can't get in there because friends there. No matter
[37:14] all the good ideas she has, she has a good team. Buyers is
[37:17] all this stuff. So again that goes back to my point about getting elected
[37:22] and getting re elected and very different things. You know what I really like
[37:23] about Darcy, now that you've brought it up. She's lost twice and but
[37:31] has the soul and the spirit of a champion. Sure, And she is
[37:36] not thinking, oh, I could win a seat more easily if I went
[37:38] to word three. She's thinking, when I win word one, yeah,
[37:43] I will have the best seat on counsel Yeah. Yeah, at the heart
[37:46] of a champion. That's one of the things I really like about Darcy.
[37:49] Yeah, well, friend's probably been running very next time. Next time,
[37:52] there you go on another thing on my list. But I think it's caps
[37:55] it in character and integrity, except that it could be slightly different. Is
[38:00] an eight percent, and I know it becomes a rechargeability. I forgot to
[38:07] plug it out last the and hence my my last criteria is acts of sheer
[38:14] stupidity? To what extent do acts of sheer stupidity? Are they different from
[38:20] character and integrity? See I disappear for six weeks, John takes over the
[38:23] role of throwing everybody off At the point, that's a good point. They
[38:27] are. They are totally different. Like like character, you can be a
[38:31] person of integrity and still have bozo eruptions. You can have character and still
[38:38] like act like a moron. Yea, it's not those are not distinct.
[38:42] I don't and I don't know if that should be a character. I mean,
[38:45] I think it's sort of in there in a way. Like maybe it's
[38:46] like you get a few, you lose a few marks. If you're doing
[38:51] great, you're getting an ex if we got to give you a beam,
[38:52] honest, because what the actual thing you can I suggest that we I like
[38:58] it can. I suggest we expand and that that category a little bit though,
[39:01] to make it a little bit more of an X factor, because it's
[39:05] also like there's so there is like doing something stupid, and then there's having
[39:09] horrible luck, which ought often looks exactly the same. Right, there's an
[39:15] X factor like some so this is superstitious and not not particularly scientific or whatever,
[39:22] but like some people are just unlucky, Like some people you just do
[39:25] not want on your baseball team, right, like they're just bad luck.
[39:30] Well, you know, X factor. Failed council candidates should consider like hitting
[39:36] up like a witch doctor or something and trying to get a curse on there
[39:38] the person that want I want to see more of this kind of stuff happen
[39:42] on council. There was a good example in real life of councilor former councilor
[39:46] Borland, which we said council former counsel Borland was a champion of the Bozo
[39:51] eruption, and yet no one would ever think that he was not a person
[39:53] of character and integrity. Yeah that's a really good point. Okay, so
[39:55] we got bozo eruption, but you're gonna have great character integer still be a
[40:00] dumbasch still shoot your mouth off in appropriately or whatever? Yeah, okay,
[40:05] okay, well we got a list, We got nine points. Now what
[40:07] we got to do as a sign weight? Yes, so I liked what
[40:09] you said with character and integrity almost taken fifty one percent, or at least
[40:14] fifty, because really everything else is sore a window dressing. Well, they're
[40:19] all the tools that you use, but that's like, that's like the thing
[40:22] that informs your judgment. I would say, character, integrity, and judgment
[40:25] are are the attributes that matter in terms of whether you're good or not.
[40:30] So we have judgment would sort of fall under knowledge and smarts. Sure,
[40:35] okay, so let's what do we want to fuck? We only have nine?
[40:38] Should we go to ten to make it even? Who has the nicest
[40:42] hair? No, we shouldn't go to ten. Keep it at nine.
[40:45] Or we could ask the wonderful listeners of Rose City politics what we missed?
[40:52] Maybe emails and maybe there is a ten crid the people who are not teachers
[40:57] who still listen to another police. There's are engineers. Yeah, doctors are
[41:02] still really good doctors. Yeah, doctors are great. Yeah. I feel
[41:07] like we can wait, like we should overweight those particular criteria, and everything
[41:13] else can be sort of evenly waited. That would be how I would so,
[41:15] then why don't so in order to divide eight things evenly nine things,
[41:21] if we give judgment characters, well, so, now we would be doing
[41:25] that's probably part I know, we would probably be bating knowledge and smarts and
[41:30] character and integrity. I'm not hearing enough formulas. You got it. We
[41:36] take down the percentages next to each one. If we write down character and
[41:40] knowledge and smarts together equal fifty one, which is what Doug wanted, it
[41:45] leaves us seven things to you know that, so forty nine to by seventy
[41:50] seven, everything else gets seven. You never wonder why things in politics don't
[41:52] get done as because with all the rules down to this, eventually these board
[41:55] meetings, right, and then two people will go off and actually do the
[42:00] work, and two people are just being smart asses. Yeah, I'm still
[42:04] going to vote for what they said. Well, what's fifty one divided by
[42:07] two? No, it's fit. Well, they're they're kind of one.
[42:09] How is this going to work that kind of one thing? Or Okay,
[42:13] let's say once twenty six and I'm gonna go with twenty five and a half.
[42:19] John, I know that. I mean, I am not a mathematician,
[42:23] but you know, you guys are seeing what my brain looks like on
[42:28] a regular I really mastered my times two tables as a kid. Like.
[42:30] I don't know what this is going to sound like, you guys, but
[42:32] this is some of the fucking funniest things. Is there a gas leak in
[42:37] there? It could be yeah, yeah, maybe it is a little more
[42:40] mote today wouldn't get her water into Okay, so twenty six point five that
[42:45] now it would be twenty six and twenty five if we don't want them to
[42:51] be six and John do the outro. Jesus Christ, Yeah, we're not
[42:54] doing the maths. Well, if we had listeners who are good at math,
[42:58] maybe one of them can send us. We have listeners who should tell
[43:00] us what's most important to them, and we will throw it into our fancy
[43:04] word rubric. We don't even know what the hell that means. Well,
[43:06] as soon as we need decimal places in the scores, I'm like the fell
[43:09] apart. Ye close the box. Yeah, well, speaking about closing the
[43:14] box, we're going to close this episode and lock into box and hopefully we'll
[43:17] release it in like twenty years of the Time capsule and stuff next week or
[43:22] today. Good evening, folks, This is low Rose City Politics, September
[43:25] the second. Our regular panel here include Doug Sartory, Melinda Monroe, Don
[43:30] Mary phil Junior, myself, John Lidkey. Support us at patreon dot com
[43:32] slash Rose City Politics. We're in Bizex magazine, online everywhere and banned only
[43:37] some places. And Roastity Politics broadcast live on tape thanks to the kind support
[43:40] of Lena six two five building better Communities. See y'all later,

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