# A Tree Grows in Windsor

An episode of [Rose City Politics](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247337855), 23 Apr 2023, 36 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/53620547/a_tree_grows_in_windsor.mp3

Jon and Doug chat about recent tree-related media coverage in Windsor. Rose City Politics is brought to you with the kind support of LiUNA Local 625: Building Better Communities. Support the show at Patreon.com/RoseCityPolitics. Read our stuff in Biz X Magazine or online at BizXMagazine.com and RoseCityPolitics.ca.

## Transcript

[0:23] Good evening everyone. Welcome to Rose City Politics. It is April twenty first.
[0:27] Our regular panel tonight includes Doug Sartory and myself, John Lidkey. Support
[0:32] us at patreon dot com forward slash Rose City Politics. We'll be able to
[0:35] hire panelists who come in on a regular basis and it won't just be the
[0:37] two of us. Doug, what do you think, Well, how many
[0:40] Patreon subscribers are we gonna need to get to that point? Well, you
[0:43] know we're gonna, We're gonna we're gonna keep growing the circle out and manageable
[0:46] tears. Okay, but we got we gotta waste to go. If you're
[0:49] currently a Patreon subscriber, you need to find two friends. This is how.
[0:53] This is the way. Um we are in biz X magazine and online
[0:56] as well and Rosalie Politics broadcast live on tape and sometimes live thanks to the
[1:00] kinds of port of Lena six two five Building better communities again. Apologies about
[1:04] how the audio has been for the last little bit. We've been working at
[1:07] all out, but we think we've got most of the bugs worked out of
[1:11] the system. It's Don's fault. Yeah, Well, I mean Don always
[1:15] ran the board and Don's been gone since we've really come back to recording in
[1:22] the physical presence, so as his tradition, we can just blame Don for
[1:26] it. Absolutely, and he's not even able to defend himself. He's sick
[1:30] still, yep, So like this is perfect. We're just beating on a
[1:33] guy who's defenseless. Absolutely. This is how I pick my fights, quite
[1:38] frankly. So we were going to talk about the big story this week of
[1:42] the Sandwich south Lands, but we've decided to put them on the back burner
[1:46] until next week to make sure that the whole panel can get a look at
[1:49] it. Probably a good idea too, just because that story continues to develop.
[1:53] You know, we weren't able to talk about it on Wednesday, but
[1:59] there's you know, continually new information is evolving here. So I think it's
[2:04] best that we're I think this is a good thing. We're letting it marinade
[2:07] right now, and a couple new flavors might emerge before we get to have
[2:10] the actual first taste. Exactly. You folks out there, you you know,
[2:15] you don't think of this as being forced to wait for our takes.
[2:20] Think about it as waiting until our takes are actually good, and I'm you
[2:23] know, continually just sort of seeing what other people's takes are on the file
[2:28] as well, with more and more stories coming out. Yeah, obviously,
[2:30] I you know, I do think that we have interesting change over the past
[2:39] six months in terms of our local discussion, you know, the local discussion
[2:45] that happens on social media. We're having fun here, folks. I think
[2:52] that there is And maybe maybe I'm just I'm just a little too tired at
[2:57] the end of a long work week, but I feel like there is a
[3:00] better quality of discussion happening out there right now in Windsor than there has been
[3:05] for quite some time. And I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly like
[3:10] how to put my finger on what the cause is, but it does seem
[3:14] like there's a bit of a bit of more maturity in the public conversation.
[3:20] Well, I mean, the post election hangover is done, and the election
[3:23] was really interesting because you know, as with most elections, you get different
[3:29] and competing visions, but in Windsor that hasn't always necessarily been the case,
[3:32] having strong mayoral opposition candidates this time around. Now We've talked about this on
[3:38] the show. You know, there's a large group of people that are now
[3:40] disaffected, who are still engaged, and now you have Mayor Dilkin seemingly veering
[3:46] off a different way from some of their people on council, or maybe they're
[3:50] veering off from him. So we're just we're getting so many different perspectives that
[3:53] just haven't been presented to us before. Yeah, and I think that the
[3:58] change on council I'd have something to do with it as well, you know,
[4:01] just that there's there are some new faces around the table. The dynamic
[4:06] has changed, I think has changed pretty drastically, and perhaps there is a
[4:12] feeling out there that there's an opportunity, more of an opportunity for conversation to
[4:18] have a real impact than there was in the eight years before. Well,
[4:21] and we've seen a win, I mean, most notably with the CTS site
[4:26] opening up. I mean it's still going to move, but that was a
[4:28] win the likes of which you know, I've never seen before any stepping backwards
[4:32] on a file before. So yeah, I mean it's it's interesting, but
[4:35] we'll look at that next week. Yeah, I couldn't fool you into predoing
[4:40] that segment now, like I realized, like, no, you got me
[4:43] pretty close into it, but I'm pulling back myself. Okay, this was
[4:46] a fun one because just looking at the windsor Star main page right now,
[4:53] this show sort of crystallized itself because we have two conflicting headlines and this is
[4:59] an interest topic about how media covers are politics locally, how are politics games
[5:05] the media locally as well, and how that all ends up getting presented to
[5:11] the average person who probably doesn't listen to rosany politics on a weekly basis,
[5:15] and who probably doesn't read past headlines in the paper if they even bother to
[5:19] look at a physical paper or go to the website. All this to say,
[5:24] the two headlines are the first, as Earth date turns fifty three,
[5:29] local area earns a fail on tree coverage. Now that's from IRKA, the
[5:32] Essex Region Conservation Authority. Now the second headline, winds are making great improvements
[5:39] in urban tree coverage Dilkins. So let's just take a look at the first
[5:46] story, because Doug, you when I first pitched this to you, when
[5:48] I came in, your first question was, well, it was there quote
[5:51] at all from the mayor and the first piece, so the first piece talks
[5:56] about how there was always a plan for seventy and trees to be planted across
[6:00] Essex across Essex County in the coming weeks. It is a drop in the
[6:05] bucket. Only five point seven percent of the landmass in the area is forest.
[6:10] ORCA has given that an f and their president says that the situation would
[6:16] need to improve to be able to get to a d let alone a C
[6:20] but we are years away from doing that. And you know, this is
[6:26] an issue of course, with Earth Day coming up, it's not surprising to
[6:29] have seen the media latch on to, you know, earthly topics and they
[6:35] go into talking about some of the efforts that are going on in the county
[6:40] as well partnership with any utilities. And we can sort of stop stop talking
[6:45] about it right there because we're not here to just read the full article to
[6:47] you. Just interesting. Let's let's just work through this one right now.
[6:54] You and I. So this is the story. I presume that this is
[6:57] the first story that hits you know, Erka says, Hey, we're looking
[7:01] for a comment from you. How are things going. Well, We're really
[7:05] bad. We get a fail next phone call Mayor's office, Hey, Mayor
[7:11] Dilkins, we need to quote most likely. We presume we don't know that
[7:14] this occurred. It doesn't say that there wasn't a comment or request, but
[7:18] there's no comment from the mayor and this piece whatsoever. But then this second
[7:21] piece shows up, and this is the one about how everything is going so
[7:26] great. So stopping right there before going into the second article, where where
[7:32] do you stand on this one, Doug? Just seeing these two juxtapositions,
[7:35] because I look at it and it's just I just smile and sit back at
[7:40] this point. Yeah, I think I think your analysis is probably spot on.
[7:47] What I think likely happened is the mayor's office was approached for comment on
[7:51] the Erka story and decided that it would be a good idea to send a
[7:59] distinct message of their own um rather than rather than comment in that story and
[8:05] make it into a you know, he said, he said kind of thing.
[8:09] Um, you know that that's what I see. I guess. Um.
[8:13] The reason that I think that's even more likely in this case is the
[8:16] nature of the um the Arka story, because, as you say, this
[8:20] is an earth Day story, So the earth Day story probably is not something
[8:24] that they're they're putting together on the Thursday before Earth Day. This is most
[8:30] likely something that was cooking for a while. You know, you you know
[8:33] that this is going to be a story. We're gonna, We're gonna,
[8:35] I'm I am presuming that that's the case. But what, um, what
[8:41] that time period would do is create more space for a response and more space
[8:46] to um, you know, to stand up a response, to issue a
[8:50] press release, to put together you know, whatever it was. So what
[8:54] what did what? What did happen? What is that second piece about?
[8:56] John? Well, you'll open it up again. Winds are making great improvements
[9:00] in urban tree coverage. Dilkins headline perfect. You've achieved the goal right there,
[9:05] right off the bat the photograph. It's Mayor Dilkins and Gary cashac Ward
[9:09] eight counselor as well as the executive director at Parks and the City Forester planting
[9:13] a tree outside of our greenhouses. And it is Mayor Dilkins defending the progress
[9:18] that's been made in our community regarding our forestry. He says that six thousand
[9:24] trees are going to be planted by the city and its partners this season and
[9:28] in the fall as part of our twenty three million dollars ten year investment in
[9:31] forestry, and he says even though that Erica gave us the failing grade,
[9:35] I think quote, I think we're making great improvements. We know we can't
[9:39] change this scenario overnight, but we are committed to it now. This is
[9:45] one of those ones, Doug, that you'll like right here. Last month,
[9:48] the Arbor Day Foundation, and it's the world's largest membership nonprofit organization,
[9:52] dedicated the planting trees. They recognized Windsor as a Tree City of the World,
[9:58] which Dilkins said is a high water mark that for us shows that we're
[10:03] making improvements and making progress. Windsor is only nineteen percent tree covered. We
[10:11] don't need to dive in now into any more financials. We're not going to
[10:15] debate the substance of the tree thing, are we really? I don't want
[10:18] to. I don't want to. Should it be nineteen percent, should it
[10:20] be twenty three point eight percent? I don't know. From trees. I'm
[10:24] sure they you know, they've got a good plan here. It's just I
[10:26] don't think that they were necessarily going to be having the big press announcement inside
[10:31] of the greenhouse planned, or maybe they were getting ahead of it, because
[10:35] this is a story, as you said, that every year, you can
[10:37] expect it. Maybe the mayor's comms shop has just gotten to the point that
[10:39] they can actually be ahead of the things themselves. Not give the comment,
[10:43] but I just it's here's Mayor Dilkins in front of the podium again, investing
[10:50] in windsor standing in the greenhouses defending an F grade. Yeah from Irka.
[10:56] So I think like, like, let's take a back and and I want
[11:01] to communicate something that I think is actually pretty important here when we do this
[11:05] kind of analysis. Um, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with
[11:11] effective political communication. And I don't think that I just don't want our listeners
[11:18] to think that, um, you know, we're saying that there's duplicity happening
[11:24] here or that this is offside or a foul. I think it's very effective
[11:28] political communication by the Mayor's office too. I don't know that the I don't
[11:35] know that we're doing that, we're doing our best story solves the issue.
[11:41] But I think having the press event and making it into a stand alone piece
[11:48] and doing enough to justify a standalone piece, that's that is the excellent work
[11:56] here. Those quotes would have been so much less effective if they were just
[12:01] the you know, the twenty words edited version of whatever Mayor Dilkins wanted to
[12:05] say that would make that would make it into the RCA piece. They got
[12:11] their own piece. You know, you can't but take your hat off,
[12:15] because that is and I think, a pretty minor, low stakes example,
[12:18] but it's a good example of effective political communication and effective maneuvering with the media.
[12:24] We've talked about how his comps shop has improved dramatically since he had his
[12:30] own chief of staff and that hasn't changed at all right now, and you
[12:35] know, you're absolutely right, because this is a good story. Winds are
[12:39] making great improvements in urban tree coverage, Mayor Dilkins, this is the exact
[12:43] story that's going to be clipped added to the newsletter sent out at the end
[12:48] of the month, and come tax season, maybe we'll show up in our
[12:52] tax envelopes as one of the things that we've achieved in our climate change initiatives.
[12:56] Yep. And that's such a good point too. Getting a clean headline
[13:00] and a clean story like this so much more valuable for future campaigning because that
[13:07] headline photograph is something that you can you can snip and put on a piece
[13:13] of literature, and it's super clean. If if instead you were trying to,
[13:18] you know, for whatever reason, polish the mayor's environmental credentials and you
[13:24] were relying on a comment in a piece called Urka gives you know, winds
[13:28] or a failing grade, it would be far less effective. Right. So,
[13:31] Um, there's a lot going on here, and there's a lot of
[13:35] reasons why that was a good move. Oh yeah, absolutely, UM.
[13:39] And like listen, it's you would hope that with the money that gets spent
[13:43] in the mayor's office, there's obviously been a big reduction over the past a
[13:46] year, year and a half of two years. Excuse me, Um,
[13:50] you hope you'd be getting a good ROI on that, and this is an
[13:52] example of it. Now. Is the ROI great for the city? No,
[13:58] not necessarily, but it's great for the office. And that's yeah.
[14:01] And that's like I think that's um, let's dig into that because this is
[14:05] really fascinating to me, you know, um. And and I want to
[14:09] tie it to the tax bill insert because there's um, there's a continuum of
[14:16] of um political communication and it you know, there's there's like forget about effective
[14:24] versus ineffective, but there's a continuum of sort of house leazy it is,
[14:28] you know, and uh Um, I don't think that that any major party
[14:33] or successful politician can avoid entirely making certain choices in order to um shade communications
[14:41] in a positive way. That's that's part of the job, right. So
[14:46] so, if you are an elected official, and you are elected to govern
[14:50] a city, a province of country, um, you will have publicly funded
[14:56] political staff whose job it is to make you look good. Um. And
[15:00] the argument would be, I think that the the duly elected democratic representatives deserve
[15:09] and should have the tools that they require in order to communicate effectively with the
[15:15] public. And I think that's true. And as far as it goes,
[15:18] I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the mayor having a com shop
[15:24] and a com shop that is dedicated to promoting the city and promoting the mayor.
[15:30] I think that's reasonable. But where I think there's an issue in Windsor
[15:35] is the disparity because we don't have just one municipal elected official. We have
[15:39] eleven yes and the ten counselors around the table. Although their role may in
[15:48] the future be diminished through strong mayor legislation, they are a vital part of
[15:54] municipal government, and they are the representatives of municipal wards. They are the
[15:58] ones who represent and the interests of specific neighborhoods, areas of the city,
[16:03] very important role um and I think that when Mayor Dilkins talks about being the
[16:08] only elected official citywide, blah blah blah, that's a point, But there
[16:12] is a corresponding point that that means that that means that it's that representation ward
[16:22] representation is really important because we wouldn't I don't think we would be well served
[16:26] to have ten um at large counselors, for example. So the point I'm
[16:32] getting at and making and saying all that, making all those comments is they
[16:36] serve a vital function. Council serves a vital function in our democracy, and
[16:40] in some cases they provide an alternate vision and an alternate voice to the mayor's
[16:47] agenda. And that's really important. And you can't you can't stop at the
[16:52] mayor's office and say this is the this is the end of the line.
[16:56] Past this point, no politician needs the tools to effectively communicate with their constituents.
[17:04] And I think what makes it even worse or exacerbates that challenge that disparity
[17:11] is that the like quite frankly, the political experience and skill gap between the
[17:17] average counselor and the mayor. And not just this mayor, but any mayor.
[17:22] Any mayor is going to have a significant amount of skill and experience gap
[17:26] between them and the average member of a council. So with all that being
[17:32] said, it's not about necessarily making sure that every single politician is great at
[17:40] doing it all by themselves, you know, That's not what what the people
[17:45] of each ward need is for their representative to be able to make the case
[17:51] that they want made as effectively as possible. So I think that the challenge
[17:56] and the issue is not necessarily that the mayor as a comms budget and that
[18:00] he uses it well. I think the challenge in the issue is that counsel
[18:03] doesn't have a comms budget. And I mean I think that at the very
[18:08] least, you could say, okay, take the mayor's office budget is what
[18:12] three hundred, Say you take one fifty not out of that, but just
[18:15] one fifty, allocate it towards all counselors. So maybe that's you can hire
[18:22] two constituency assistance across the board or one comms person, whatever it is that
[18:27] represents the whole of counsel that does what you you know, you're talking about
[18:32] the role of making sure that these people look good, can can best serve
[18:36] interests. I think it's really unfortunate that, you know, you have some
[18:38] counselors and I think, you know, Ronaldo is a perfect example right now,
[18:42] hustling, really hired, engaging with literally everybody on social media, doing
[18:48] the Doug Ford rob Ford, here's my cell phone number, call me with
[18:52] absolutely anything, and he's getting stuff done, and he's being creative about it
[18:56] and working with partner organizations to get stuff and it's you know, being a
[19:00] great rep on the boots level. Some counselors aren't able to do that because
[19:06] they're may be working full time or maybe they don't have the same social media
[19:10] skills to be able to reach out. The point being is, I don't
[19:11] think that right. I think we work shouldn't be part of the counselor work
[19:17] in like the end, So I think they need to. I think they
[19:19] need to be responsible for the constent work because that's part of what comes with
[19:23] being having a geographic boundary that you represent. But um, but beyond that,
[19:30] and I think it's a really good point. Rinaldo's um Rinaldo's professional experience
[19:38] has put him in a place where he can be a very effective counselor in
[19:45] terms of communication others around the table who have different experiences. You know,
[19:52] if you were a banker or if you were a you know, a public
[19:56] servant, you will not have had those same experiences and not had the opportunity
[20:00] to build up those skills. And in a ward race, it might not
[20:06] matter right an award race, you may be able to convince your neighbors because
[20:10] so much of that happens at the door. So much of that conversation and
[20:14] that persuasion happens talking to people on a face to face level. So a
[20:19] person, for example, you've had a chance to chat with Gary Cashac since
[20:22] I mentioned the ex public servant, Gary Kashak is pretty personable guy, a
[20:30] pretty pretty good face to face would I would suggest that he's a pretty good
[20:36] retail politician in terms of his ability to connect with people face to face.
[20:40] Great, that's got him there, but um to be able to make effective
[20:45] interventions in office, those same skills are not are not what is going to
[20:49] get you there, no, and like as he's like a public servant banker,
[20:56] people who work in very bureaucratic institutions don't have the same mindset as an
[21:00] entrepreneur who goes, let's just get this done. Yep, this is such
[21:06] a small thing in front of me. Right now, I've got it.
[21:07] It's like, I mean, we were having this conversation last week. You
[21:11] say, you know there's X amount of projects. They're always triaged. You
[21:15] know, it's what it's going to take when it's going to get to them,
[21:17] and when some bullshit shows up, it's just a hurdle that you've just
[21:21] got a kick out of your way to get back onto the track that I'm
[21:22] on. And that's private business, one on one, and it's completely unlike
[21:26] anything related to public service, banking, anything that has you know, layers
[21:30] of layers of bureaucracy to protect the institution as a whole. I guess my
[21:37] issue is when you end up having constituents that don't get the same level of
[21:41] service. And I think that when we already have this dichotomy between the mayor's
[21:45] office having so much versus counselors having so little, and then the breakdown and
[21:49] having some great counselors versus you know, historically some that we're not so great.
[21:57] You have a mayor who's also able to then use his powers as mayor
[22:02] to help out counselors that he enjoys the you know, having the friendliness of
[22:07] to call up public works and say, hey, get something done in this
[22:10] word, I need it done for that counselor now. And we end up
[22:14] in a situation with you know, wards that have decorative lighting that gets replaced
[22:19] versus alleys that historically haven't had any lighting. And at the end of the
[22:23] day, it's just what's the point of you know, pan taxes if it's
[22:29] everyone's not going to be represented the same way, right, And and so
[22:32] I think we're in agreement on this and like to just shift the conversation a
[22:34] little bit because I think it's it's fair to say that this is not likely
[22:41] to change in the next three years. Um the you know, it's not
[22:48] likely that that office budgets would be an issue that counsel would choose to defy
[22:53] the mayor on. And it's this mayor is not very likely to be the
[22:59] kind of person who looks at the playing field and says, you know,
[23:02] this. This isn't fair to the other team. This isn't fair to those
[23:04] guys I think we got we gotta clean this up. That's not going to
[23:07] happen. So so what I want to ask you now, John, is
[23:12] what's your advice for counselors. This is the situation you've got. And let's
[23:18] take the tree example. If you're a counselor and you get wind of a
[23:23] story that's going to make you look bad or that it's going to have a
[23:26] negative impact on your public perception, let's say it that way, your ability
[23:30] to get in front of it, your ability to deal with it is so
[23:33] much less than the mayors. So what what would your advice be to the
[23:41] median counselor? You know that, what can they do without an additional budget
[23:45] to address this imbalance? Cultivate your relationship with members of the media. If
[23:51] you don't have like friendly relationships, take them out for a coffee or meet
[23:55] for coffee. You don't have to spend money on it by any means,
[23:57] but lord knows that probably helps in some cases. But get some friendly people
[24:03] who use inc on your side that when it does come time that you need
[24:07] a story, you're able to uh, you know, get the help what
[24:11] we were trying. How do you build those relationships? John? What what
[24:15] do what do reporters and other media people? What do they want from a
[24:19] politician. I'll make my job easy, right, Just give give me the
[24:23] quotes I need, give me the background that I need. Let me know
[24:26] there's a story that I could chase. Anything that makes pick up the pick
[24:30] up the phone, do the work. I mean, don't sit there and
[24:33] complain that the media is gonna, you know, give you crap coverage if
[24:36] you're not willing to engage with the media and try to get ahead of that.
[24:41] When we did the you sponsored the event last year that I was on
[24:45] the panel for at chapter two about media, and I remember Don MacArthur talking
[24:49] about covering Camp Bramble for the Windsor Police and he said, you know,
[24:56] it's a good story, there's nothing wrong with it. But it's also one
[24:59] of the lower hand fruit pieces that there is to cover in the hierarchy of
[25:03] police stories. But they like it. It's there. They're good pr And
[25:07] he said, this is what's called a beat sweetener. So you give them
[25:11] something nice and then they're more than likely willing to give you something nice when
[25:15] you need it. Point being is get to that point when you are aware
[25:18] that there's you know, maybe a competing outlet that's gonna be putting out a
[25:22] negative story, you're able to go to a reporter or a different outlet,
[25:25] give them a completely different story, and go to a partner in the media
[25:29] that you can maybe a not for profit or a charity or something that you
[25:30] can jump onto or latch into. I mean, we live in a world
[25:33] right now or unfortunately media is not able to cover things as in depth as
[25:38] we'd like them to be, so you know, use that to your advantage.
[25:42] So build relationships. I agree with everything that you've said build relationships,
[25:49] but I think there is something that comes before that, and that is being
[25:56] comfortable in terms of having a microphone in your face and making effective use of
[26:00] that moment um and and being prepared to make a statement that is not going
[26:07] to make you lose ground. Um and um. There was a recent story
[26:15] where we had some counselors who got caught a little bit trying to no comment,
[26:18] but they didn't quite get the no comment clean, and they they flummed
[26:22] it. And then and then obviously the reporter was not particularly sympathetic, because
[26:27] if they were, they probably would have just taken that as a no comment,
[26:30] and instead they kind of twisted a little bit, like twisted the knife
[26:33] a little bit and let let them let them hang um and and I think
[26:38] that's a good example of of just like you know, know what the rules
[26:42] are like, no, what know what the actual rules of the game are,
[26:47] Know what the person on the other other side of the microphone like,
[26:49] what their agenda is, what they are, what they are trying to accomplish
[26:52] today, and and make an effective statement. But do you think that it's
[26:57] possible to to you know, some people are naturals at that sort of thing,
[27:02] But do you think that's something that's possible for an individual our media and
[27:04] counselor that we're talking about to just cultivate well by yourself. I think so.
[27:11] Yeah, I definitely do think so. I mean, and it can
[27:14] be as simple as I mean, as you said, you got to get
[27:18] comfortable in from of a microphone first, But it can be as simple as
[27:19] at an event, just walk over afterwards and just say hi to a journalist
[27:25] that you don't know, Go hug a journalist. I feel it's verging into
[27:29] that territory there. But you don't have to give them a quote right off
[27:30] the bat. You just go introduce yourself. You now be a human being.
[27:36] Treat the other person as a human being. And again, I mean
[27:40] understand that with it being twenty twenty three and this is the media landscape,
[27:45] how lucky you are that this is it today because with all the tools that
[27:49] we have from social media to video on the fly and everything in between.
[27:55] Imagine if newsrooms were able to keep up with the staff and the insight of
[28:00] got twenty years ago, let alone fifty sixty seventy years ago, where people
[28:03] actually had regular beats and there were teams that worked on them, and there
[28:07] were people that would go, he's given you a bullshit line. He said
[28:11] this before, but this is what he actually But none of that exists anymore.
[28:15] So just recognize that, you know, the journalist is tired and they
[28:18] just got to put a story out at the end of the day. Okay,
[28:21] one last thing I want to ask you, now, let's flip this
[28:26] and talk about it from the perspective of a resident of a citizen. You
[28:32] are reading, I mean, you're listening to ro city politics, so you're
[28:36] already doing some some smart and good things. But as a consumer of news,
[28:42] what can you do to to try to smooth out your perception of politicians?
[28:49] Because you'll have some politicians who are very effective and some politicians who are
[28:53] less effective at communication. You'll get you some offices or better at um at
[29:02] at getting their message out and getting the press that they want. And it
[29:07] doesn't just stick to the municipal level. You know, we've had um and
[29:10] I do not want to get into this today, but we had the urban
[29:12] park stuff recently, and there's some you know, chippiness and conflict and differing
[29:19] stories between two MPs representing different ridings and windsor and um. You know,
[29:27] there's a whole there's a whole back and forth there. But as a resident,
[29:33] my interest is in knowing the truth and getting at the getting at What
[29:37] should my impression be? I you know, how do I see what everyone's
[29:42] trying to do? So? So how do I take a story like this
[29:45] tree story? How do I evaluate that? How do I how do I
[29:49] like inoculate myself against the the always siding with the more effective communicator. I
[29:59] mean that's tough, because I mean, how do you solve media literacy?
[30:02] Overnight, Doug. Well, that's the question. So so you say media
[30:06] literacy, what does that mean as a as a resident? If I don't
[30:10] know anything about about the topic, I might not be be particularly you know,
[30:15] like, oh, now I know what I need to do. I
[30:17] know the ten steps because he said media literacy. So what does that mean?
[30:19] Well, I mean, I guess first off, you've got a question
[30:22] what the sourcing is? Where where are you reading it? Is it from
[30:25] a very like a reputable source or not. I'm not suggesting that we have
[30:27] fake news by any means down in these parts, but you know, something
[30:32] that's gone through the Windsor Star, I would take far more than like an
[30:34] online blog for example, like us Rose any politics fair enough to use a
[30:38] fair example. If we contradicted the Windsor Star, I would probably suggest the
[30:42] Star has probably got it right. Yeah, And so I mean, right
[30:45] off the bat there, and then I'd look at you know what are if
[30:48] you have two conflicting stories like this one, you just got to ask right
[30:51] off the bat, like what's going on here? Like this this looks weird
[30:53] And that's the only reason why this story we're having this conversation the Windsor star
[30:57] is deciding, and you know what's going to happen tomorrow for the front page
[31:00] on Saturday. You're gonna have two conflicting stories running on a one above the
[31:04] fold most likely, and I can't wait to see that printed. So you
[31:07] know, at question what people's motivations are, Why are people's quotes there?
[31:12] Why aren't people's quotes there? And then i'd, you know, take the
[31:15] step back and try to figure out is there partisan politics at play here?
[31:21] Is that just oppositional politics at play? I'm curious what you know, what
[31:23] your thoughts are for some people too, well, I'm just picking up on
[31:26] something that you said. And this might apply more at the partisan level than
[31:32] the municipal level, just because we don't tend to have competing voices and coal
[31:37] competing ecosystems like we do at the provincial and federal level. There are there
[31:42] are competing communications ecosystems that go all the way from social media all the way
[31:48] up to heads of government and leaders of thought position and so forth. And
[31:53] in in those cases, something that I see a lot that I think is
[32:00] not good is folks dismissing a source out of hand. Um that is the
[32:07] National Post. I can't believe it. UM not understanding the difference between editorial
[32:14] and news, and not understanding the difference between UM an otherwise reputable news outlet
[32:23] that may UM that may not be an ideological fit for you is a very
[32:30] different thing from a news outlet that doesn't care about the truth. And I
[32:34] think it's really important, um to not to not create an insulated thought world
[32:38] where you only hear things that comfort you, and you only hear ideas that
[32:44] are congenial and are like a warm information blanket instead of you know, instead
[32:46] of some scratchy and annoying things that might might not you might not agree with.
[32:52] I think I think you have to embrace a little bit of discomfort if
[32:55] you want to be a really informed news consumer. I don't like the Toronto
[33:01] Sun, but I still flip through it on a regular basis. I'll read
[33:06] the articles if they seem like they're newsworthy a lot of time, you know,
[33:09] and then the blending between there is news that does show up an editorial.
[33:13] We don't really have to worry about that down here anymore, but it
[33:15] was always something that we did have to be concerned about. You know,
[33:19] why is Ann Jarvis writing a news story today based on an anonymous quote that's
[33:24] being used, or why is Henderson or vander Dolan doing it? And like
[33:30] you got a question, why why did the editorialists get pulled into it?
[33:34] Well, because they wanted it to be kept out of newsroom for some reason,
[33:37] or they felt that it couldn't get into newsroom. But again, I
[33:39] mean, these are things that we don't need to worry about because we don't
[33:43] have editorialists anymore. Which is even more interesting because now it goes to when
[33:46] we see an anonymous source that's just used straight in news and you know it
[33:52] happens infrequently, but you have to question why is anonymity being provided in a
[33:59] lot of cases, and if it's just like so and so had this to
[34:01] say about what's going on in city hall, but they're not a city hall
[34:06] insider, so you question, like, well, why is that person getting
[34:08] anonymity? Remember the public, like what's the what's the benefit? Are they
[34:14] going to get fired for this? And if so, isn't that the story?
[34:19] Then someone provides comment, but there's forces that might get them pushed out
[34:22] a job, So you know, it's it's it's tough to teach the media
[34:25] literacy class in ten minutes. Yeah, I think I think what I was
[34:30] hoping we could do tonight and I think we did it is um it's perhaps
[34:35] give folks some things to think about and uh and highlight the um you know,
[34:38] how it impacts public perception. And I think that this this episode is
[34:45] going to be a really good primer um for our discussion about the Sandwich Southlands,
[34:51] because um, I think that there is a huge amount of information and
[34:57] narrative shaping that has gotten us to where we are and um, and I
[35:01] think that this discussion will really inform that one. Perfect. Well, then
[35:07] why don't we just uh, we'll call this then Doug and We've had a
[35:09] nice little time here on a Friday afternoon, and we'll gather back next week
[35:14] with the full team. Sounds great, perfect Well, Hey everyone, thank
[35:16] you so much for tuning in to Rose City Politics. I am John Olidkey.
[35:21] That was Doug sar Tory and today is the twenty first of April.
[35:27] Somehow we were able to pull off a show the day after four twenty and
[35:30] your office open house and the premiere of the final episode of Star Trek Card,
[35:38] all of which I celebrated. The Blue checkscut pulled away. Yeah.
[35:43] I didn't celebrate that one, No, but then the rocket blew up.
[35:45] Yeah, So I mean yesterday, it's the crazy day day we were able
[35:49] to pull together an episode. Today, I'm sorry. Thank you for listening,
[35:52] folks. Go to patreon, dot com, forward slash Roseny politics,
[35:54] support us, read us in biz X, and we'll back next week live
[35:58] on tape thanks to the kind support of Lena six two five Building Better Communities M

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