# Oh No The Student Vote

An episode of [Rose City Politics](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247337855), 30 Sep 2023, 1 h 14 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/57005419/oh_no_the_student_vote.mp3

The Rose City Politics panel reviews the City's progress on climate change, some pushback from a city councillor towards local post-secondary institutions, and a political Facebook bun-fight. Rose City Politics is brought to you with the kind support of LiUNA Local 625: Building Better Communities. Support the show at Patreon.com/RoseCityPolitics. Read our stuff in Biz X Magazine or online at BizXMagazine.com and RoseCityPolitics.ca

## Transcript

[0:24] Hey, everyone, Welcome to Rosary Politics. Regular panel today includes Doug Sartory,
[0:29] Malin Monroe, myself, John Lydkey. You can support us at Patreon.
[0:33] You know where it is. Rosary Politics. We are in print,
[0:37] in biz X, online, banned in some places, and we broadcast live
[0:42] on tape thanks to the kind of support of Leuna sixty five building Better Communities.
[0:48] Wow, this is you're really leaning into the chill Saturday afternoon mode of
[0:52] new RCP. Right, I'm cutting the fat out of all of the words
[0:57] that I have in the show. Doc They don't need to be there.
[1:00] We're getting down to the just the core essentials. Okay, it's fun.
[1:03] He's practicing his NPR voice too. I really liked it. We're gonna dive
[1:08] into the inner dynamics of how windsor works. Everybody thinks that it's a machine
[1:12] and the machine requires firm lubrication, oil guard works lubrication. What is firmly
[1:22] firm lubrication is the applied lubrication. It's it's firmly applied. Oh my god,
[1:27] it is what makes the city run one minute twenty seven seconds off the
[1:33] rails. We could have some back, buddy, We like it could have
[1:37] just been like a thing like that could have just been like a little speed
[1:38] bump. Molinda decided like, now we're gonna pull up for a second and
[1:44] do a little time for she pulled the crank on the railway line. Yep,
[1:49] that's fine. Anyways, Hey, welcome to the show. We're gonna
[1:52] talk about a bunch of stuff today. That's usually what we do here.
[1:56] City politics. Our first topic that we want to dive into is a it's
[2:01] a big one. It's one of those existential ones that surround us, which,
[2:06] unfortunately and winds are a lot of our topics are existential. Yeah,
[2:09] we don't ever have like a good you know, egg salad debate anymore.
[2:15] Right, No, those days are done. It's all like people dying and
[2:19] you know, terrible tragedy. Yeah, like the stuff is coming. We've
[2:22] got to figure out how to stop the visigoths. We'll figure it out maybe
[2:25] and if not, yeah, good run. I remember though, like during
[2:30] COVID for a little bit, when we tried to divert from the COVID stories,
[2:34] we were like really into the nuances of like, oh, the city's
[2:38] replacing the bolts on the light posts on Windot Street and that was so awful
[2:45] for those couple of months when we were just like the mundane city topics.
[2:49] So I guess I'll take the existential ones as they come. I know,
[2:52] last that's good. It's a good mixing it up from last week where we
[2:54] spent the whole time talking about beach, volleyball and old and counselors. So
[2:58] that was a fun one though. I don't know, so that wasn't too
[3:00] existential unless maybe you're, you know, well, let's volleyball, volleyball.
[3:07] So let's dive into this one right here. Windsor's biggest climate pollution problems and
[3:14] that's the issue that we have right now. We're trying to figure out how
[3:16] to deal with it. The city released the first greenhouse gas Emissions and Energy
[3:23] Usage Report, breaks down where our climate emissions or carbonagement emission. Imagine if
[3:30] there were climate emissions, that would be great if we could, like,
[3:34] you know, fix it just with our emissions. Carbon emissions are coming from.
[3:38] And it's broken down into three main categories that we're going to look at
[3:44] just in a quick second here. But what we actually have to understand here
[3:50] is that in twenty nineteen, we set that Climate Change Emergency mandate by law,
[3:58] target declaration, declaration nonsense that can just be overturned at any moment.
[4:04] I mean, it's hard to take it seriously, especially in windsor so like.
[4:08] I don't like to give it the credence of a formal title. I
[4:11] suppose, but the goal was to cut our emissions by sixty eight percent of
[4:16] the two thousand and five totals by the end of twenty thirty. We are
[4:21] not really halfway there yet. We have those seen a thirty percent reduction since
[4:29] those two thousand and five levels. We're now using the twenty nineteen emissions the
[4:36] stats that we have because COVID screwed everything up for us when industry shut down.
[4:42] I love this part from the report that says that if we just didn't
[4:46] want to do anything at all, like let's just say, like, you
[4:47] know, it's screw it, but we still want to meet it. We
[4:51] can do it. We just need to go plant one point nine million acres
[4:55] of forest, which is only twenty nine or twenty six million seedlings for two
[5:00] years. That'll capture all the carbon from twenty twenty one. Unfortunately, that
[5:04] for us would be fifty two times the size of our city, which is
[5:10] actually like a pretty useful visualization of the problem that we have and the scope
[5:15] of what the natural dealing with it would take. So how do we actually
[5:24] deal with The biggest trunk of our pollution right now is coming from transportation?
[5:29] Are you driving, are you using a bus? It's the trucks that we
[5:34] have in the city. After that we can look to home emissions is the
[5:41] big one. The vast majority of our houses in the city are built before
[5:46] nineteen eighty, before like standard building codes were put into place that took into
[5:50] account at least you know, let the wind account for it, I suppose,
[5:57] And that's one of the biggest And then after that as industry, I
[6:00] think industry can be kind of like put aside because that's something that is dealt
[6:04] with at the provincial level and the federal level and at the shareholder level.
[6:11] Quite frankly, so our two based ones transportation and houses, and that's where
[6:15] we can really start this conversation off, I think, is the transportation component.
[6:20] We just had a money year old debate that was over public transportation.
[6:25] If you really want to look at what some of the key topics was,
[6:28] and we had one candidate, Chris Holt saying, let's go do transit.
[6:31] We know what we have to do. Money money, money, money,
[6:35] It'll work out at the end. It creates econ development, it helps our
[6:42] claim change goals, it does all those things. And you had Mayor Bilkins
[6:46] on the other side who said, if you want to vote a Chris Holt,
[6:48] you're voting for a garage mahal blah blah blah. And we saw the
[6:53] battle lines and we saw our voters went yeah. Not just that. In
[6:57] that debate, Dilkins also went after Holt because accusing him of disloyalty to the
[7:05] automobile, if you remember, and he expressed shock that a that a multi
[7:11] generational employee of an OEM would would be so disloyal to the automobile that brought
[7:17] his family and his city prosperity, etcetera, etcetera. So so I just
[7:23] wanted to bring that up because I wanted to I wanted to identify the exact
[7:30] like haft of the marker that Dilkins put down in that debate, like he
[7:34] was not at all equivocal. Do you think that it was not widely known
[7:42] among the general public prior to October's election that on road transportation represents a significant
[7:49] part of the climate impact of Windsor. I think you, well, so
[7:56] here's the thing. I think you'd have to be living in a cave to
[8:00] not know that road transportation is one of the biggest contributors, because we've talked
[8:03] about it internationally, right, But I think there are a lot of people
[8:07] in Windsor, because of their loyalty to the audition industry, who are effectively
[8:11] living in the cave. Well, exactly my point. Yeah, because because
[8:15] Mayor Dilkins. Mayor Dilkins is a smart, experienced politician, he knows his
[8:18] electorate. And what Mayor Dilkins did in that debate as he put a big
[8:24] marker down and said, you know what, Windsor doesn't give a fuck about
[8:28] climate change and what happened in the election only won. So do you think
[8:37] Windsor doesn't know this in Windsor cares, I'm gonna I'm gonna go a different
[8:41] route. I don't think that the average person really does take into account the
[8:48] idea of climate change and infrastructure coupled together. I think that the average person
[8:54] is looking at climate change does in two ways. One on the micro level.
[9:01] Why the fuck do I not have a plastic straw anymore, or a
[9:05] plastic bag, and I'm not pissed off because my life's being impacted in negative
[9:09] ways that were like it's just inconvenient. And then on the macro level of
[9:13] why the fuck is the oil and gas company like the Tarsans not doing their
[9:18] thing because I see the you know, massive forest fires. I don't think
[9:22] that the average person is thinking that, oh, the road repair is climate
[9:28] change, the maintenance is climate change. I can't agree. In Windsor,
[9:35] I think we spent we spent the entire year of twenty twenty two talking about
[9:39] the transition to ev sure that Windsor's future was going to be based on electric
[9:46] vehicles and the battery and this is all tied with like climate change, right,
[9:52] I think we are more than ready to capitalize on it. I just
[9:56] don't think Windsor cares and and you know, collectively, like I know people
[10:00] in Windsor care. I know that there are people who are deeply passionate and
[10:03] invest their you know, significant time in their lives. But in aggregate,
[10:07] does the voting public in Windsor internalize internalized climate change as an issue that that
[10:15] matters to them at the ballot box or or you know, do is there
[10:20] a significant segment that overlaps with Dilkin's voting base who are hostile hostile to climate
[10:28] change mitigation? I mean there are any of that? Is that the marriage
[10:31] or as a Tesla, No, that's our that that is like forty five
[10:35] persignent of our climate change targets for the city of Windsor's that the marriage?
[10:41] Maybe maybe we can make pretty good switch any any time you have a significant,
[10:48] significant social change, We're gonna we're gonna replace the garbage fleet with Tesla
[10:56] cyber trucks. Good idea, and then we'll take one of the old ones
[10:58] in it in a glass case on rivers. Great art restructs you used to
[11:03] be in the past. Okay, So anytime it was significant sort of cultural
[11:09] shift like this happened, so the poor, the poor, innocent, you
[11:11] know, individual person is going to be like, it's too overwhelming for me.
[11:16] I need to get my kid to school and the car I have burnt
[11:20] gas, I need to my house doesn't have is no longer properly equipped to
[11:24] stay cool. You know the houses that that were around when I was a
[11:28] kid. Because I'm one hundred and fifty years old and the houses that my
[11:31] parents lived in, and you see them in the old houses would have have
[11:33] small windows, they have awnings, they have big trees around them, which
[11:37] was meant to keep them cool in the summer without the trees. Now houses
[11:41] are being built with gigantic atria and windows and all of this stuff that prevents
[11:46] you from you have to have mechanical air condition to keep them cool. So
[11:50] all of the things that so people are feeling these as intense losses. Wow,
[11:52] maybe I can give up driving my car a little bit, but I
[11:54] can't give it up completely. And now I feel shamed, and so I'm
[11:58] not I'm going to get angry with has of that. And I think these
[12:01] are all the factors that are kind of rolling together, which is why good
[12:05] on Karina Richters and good on the city administration keep coming back. Yep,
[12:09] they just keep coming back and keep sort of chipping away at if we're going
[12:13] to actually make any concrete difference. These are the some of the things we
[12:16] have to do, Like good on, if we're not just saying well,
[12:18] I'm throwing up our hands and saying I can't do anymore. So it's terrific.
[12:22] I agree, and and it's it's actually like kind of rare for administration
[12:26] to present information that's you know, like this is information that is we just
[12:33] talked about how politically it's it's kind of offside at the very least, it's
[12:37] an issue that Mayor Dilkins would probably rather not talk much about. So yeah,
[12:43] like I think this is an impressive instance of city administration going out there
[12:46] with information we need. And I wonder if just to finish this, maybe
[12:50] not finish off this segment, but just that if the if some of the
[12:56] economic development work that's being done to bring green industry to the community or green
[13:01] orn't she like eed construction, eed plants that if the investors are saying,
[13:05] your community has to actually be committed to this. No, if you're going
[13:09] to be loyal to the future automobile, your city has to demastate a little
[13:13] bit of loyalty to the future automail. So they're not demanding it. But
[13:16] I think that we can all agree that, you know, modern industry has
[13:22] esg at the forefront of where their sites are there. They're not going to
[13:24] choose you know, Shitsville versus ethical social green wad I think we called winds
[13:30] or Shitsville before, but you know, Shitsville versus Shitterville, like they're going
[13:33] to go for wherever has those priorities or what looks better. But the biggest
[13:39] thing I think that is driving it, from what I heard from at least
[13:41] talking with Counselor Mackenzie, is that it's a lot like how the FEDS have
[13:48] tied the new Housing Accelerator funds towards get rid of your restrictions on zonings and
[13:54] stuff to get the money. If we want to get the transit funding,
[13:58] if we want to get the affordable housing funding, if we want to get
[14:01] extra funding pools, we have to be able to meet these types of targets,
[14:07] which changes the paradigm for sure. And I think I think that's what
[14:09] it's going to take, you know. And I want to kind of clarify,
[14:13] like I'm not exactly saying that Windsor is a city that hates the environment
[14:18] and wats the world to burn. That's not exactly what I'm trying to communicate
[14:22] here. I think that it is reasonable to expect that a city like Windsor
[14:28] will be a climate laggard compared to the median city across the country. Right,
[14:33] It's fair, and I don't think it's like like this is just not
[14:39] going to be We're just not going to be the climate leaders. It's going
[14:43] to be a community that is not dependent on you know, emissions, that
[14:48] is going to that is going to going to do that. And so I
[14:50] think that those kind of federal incentives are really important for a city that's probably
[14:56] destined to be a climate laggard like windsor because if if we don't have those
[15:01] sticks, I don't think that that public opinion locally is strong enough to overcome
[15:07] inertia. So and that it's an interesting point. Makes so when I was
[15:11] working for the City Vancouver, which about ten years ago now, they were
[15:13] already way ahead and they had a strategic goal to be the greenest city in
[15:16] the world by twenty twenty. But I can't remember a conversation. We're talking
[15:20] to one of them people who did facilities work, and said something about,
[15:22] you know, managing the life cycle of a building from acquisition or construction to
[15:28] demolition, and he said, oh, it's just demolition is a bad word
[15:31] around here. We don't demolish, we deconstruct, meaning that it was added
[15:37] to the cost of the city budget because they take the old buildings apart,
[15:41] and they recycle what they can. They rebuild with some of the stuff they
[15:43] can, and then they take it down to their landfill. As a whole,
[15:46] we might have this plant that basically regrinds concrete and makes new concrete,
[15:52] or regrinds asphalt that makes new ashalt. They deconstruct the roads, even take
[15:56] it apart, take it away, turn it into new should and pay something
[16:00] else with it. It makes it very expensive, but that was ten years
[16:06] ago. They were already doing that stuff. And we need leaders and we
[16:10] need laggards. You know. It's the there's a there's a it's a big
[16:15] country, and there's a whole spectrum, and and everybody contributes in a different
[16:18] way. I understand why people are frustrated by this, and I think,
[16:25] you know, Counselor Mackenzie's words are well taken, you know, and it
[16:30] will be good to have those federal incentives. But I'm not surprised, you
[16:36] know, I'm not surprised that we are struggling to meet our twenty thirty emissions
[16:40] targets. I think that that was baked in from day one. I don't
[16:45] know if this applies or anything we're doing the redevelopment of Sandwich Street right now,
[16:49] which is not including bike lanes, as we heard from Lorie Newton who
[16:55] we had her on. But I just saw a news story research or not
[16:59] even a new story, I excum. It was in a Facebook group of
[17:03] the road that was torn up. All of the street car tracks were unearthed
[17:10] and instead of being kept where they were, they were all pulled out,
[17:15] bent and thrown in front of like the tim Hortons or whatever right on Sandwich
[17:18] And there was a photograph of just like all the you know, street car
[17:22] tracks just in like a big heap, and like my first thought was,
[17:26] holy fuck, that's like five grand, Like let's head over there. I
[17:30] need a U haul and five strong men immediately. But the second thought was
[17:37] just like are we are? So we're not getting the bike lanes But that's
[17:41] not the conversation, but like we're not getting them, but why aren't we
[17:47] incorporating the street car tracks into the road like we did it on Ottawa at
[17:52] the crossings, Like like like why are why is it a constant, I
[17:59] don't know, a constant pushed towards convenience and fast and cheap and that's it.
[18:04] And I think that's the conversation sort of that this is all about when
[18:07] it comes to the infrastructure and the climate targets and if we can meet them
[18:12] or not meet them well, and all the other things that come from.
[18:15] Like it's not just the climate thing, because we're going to talk in a
[18:18] minute about the downtown survey, and we've talked before about when Owen Waygood was
[18:22] here about about children's access or children's independency. All of these things are tied
[18:27] to how you construct your transportation network. Our cars guests in your city,
[18:33] and the city is for the users, for the people who walk and ride
[18:37] their bikes and all those things or cars the owner and if edesians and the
[18:41] bikes are the guests. And I think if we, if we would change
[18:45] the conversation to the cars are guests, that would help on the climate emissions
[18:48] side, no question. Oh well, the carbon emissions, as John correctly
[18:52] pointed out you know previously, but the I mean the the so thirty four
[18:59] almost four percent of the climate pollution in winter was from onod transportation. It
[19:04] was more than any other any other form of carbon emission. You know,
[19:11] we got to thing about that, right, So talking with Karen. One
[19:15] of the things that they're discussing is having a new program that the city would
[19:22] have Obviously counts would have to approve. But I think it's like seventy seventy
[19:26] five percent of our houses are built before energy efficiency standards, so the big
[19:33] issue ones and they're looking at, or at least what he was discussing that
[19:37] the conversation is a city led program where you can apply. The city sends
[19:45] out an auditor who comes and looks and says, oh, you can do
[19:49] this. You can get new windows and get new doors, a new roof,
[19:52] you can replace the boiler, you can get a new furnace or whatever,
[19:55] blah blah. And once that all comes in, the guy goes,
[19:59] it'll come seventy five grand or whatever x number is, and the city will
[20:03] pay it up front and then amortize it over a ten year period. And
[20:10] then I went, wow, it sounds like a pretty actually not a terrible
[20:12] deal. I said, a lot of people won't be able to afford it,
[20:15] We have to admit that, but for those who can, that's not
[20:19] a bad idea. You take it ten years tax free or interest free,
[20:23] like it works well. And he said, I can't carry to you it's
[20:26] interest free and I went, okay, you've made it a little bit more
[20:27] onerous. That's it's a little bit harder, but it's not going to be
[20:30] It's not like, you know, a crazy interest grade. I'm sure because
[20:33] it's from the city, but it was it was going to be outsourced to
[20:37] money mart right, Yeah, exactly what I heard. Yeah, or like
[20:41] the video game that you and I were talking about yesterday. But the idea
[20:45] is that we need to get serious if we want to meet not only the
[20:51] arbitrary, fake target that we set at the municipal level, because let's be
[20:55] honest, our climate target doesn't matter. And that was the main question I
[20:59] asked, and I said, doesn't matter. Other penalty is like if we
[21:03] just decide, you know, burn baby burn, let's do it. And
[21:06] you know, Karen rightly said no, I mean, this is just we
[21:08] just set the target. Any council can get rid of it. But let's
[21:12] be honest. We know what the fact of the matter is, things are
[21:14] getting worse. Province is going to go and a set of target at some
[21:18] point, or the Feds will impose a target that the province will then have
[21:22] to drop down in one way or something or other, And I don't I
[21:26] don't want to be against this idea because I think it's kind of an interesting
[21:27] want. It would be hard to find a way to convince taxpayers that they
[21:30] ought to support other people's houses. They hate doing it enough as it is.
[21:34] But what's curious to me is it'd be interesting to know, you know,
[21:38] data people where the houses are that would benefit the most. And because
[21:45] I think, like so houses like mine that are more than one hundred years
[21:48] old, we have other issues around leaking air out of our houses, but
[21:53] they're probably constructed quite well to be good climate. You know, compliant houses,
[21:59] right, thick brick walls, small windows, lots of trees. But
[22:03] the kinds of of poor energy efficient houses built in a periods you're talking about,
[22:07] sort of post war whatever. We're not like dogs neighborhood. You know
[22:11] that the south windsor east windsor wards seven eights, you know all, you
[22:18] know, not so much to the down. So the downtown might in this
[22:19] case have houses that are a bit better quality with respective climate things that mid
[22:25] century construction, and so, you know, would we isn't one of those
[22:29] situations where we might be you know, subsidizing more wealthy neighborhoods kind of by
[22:34] accident, because it's the those neighborhoods that have the climate inefficient houses. So
[22:38] the number was it was like the vast majority of what needs to be retro
[22:45] fitted that would fit into this program. And again that number is eighty percent
[22:49] of windsor houses they fall below nineteen eighty, right, So I think I
[22:56] would say below nineteen eighty, but after nineteen thirty, it's probably your house
[23:00] because the older houses stock aren't were actually because they were. I would say
[23:04] that probably I would, I would push against you just to forty five,
[23:08] Okay, I think like anything after forty five is probably like your your your
[23:14] bones are super strong what you're referring to. Yeah, and it was it
[23:18] was built to stay cool. Condition comes in exactly we didn't have it's we
[23:22] didn't have all that great of furnaces, and so they were built to keep
[23:25] warmth in and keep cool in and all of those well, and look at
[23:27] like when your downtown homes are like there their seedar framed. You're not going
[23:32] to be like susceptible to termites. So how is they're going to stand for
[23:36] four or five hundred years. They're like European castles, right, So it's
[23:40] the energy efficiency is built in. It's what do we what do we do
[23:44] with the new houses that are built, and how do we get the ones
[23:45] that are right? And maybe maybe it's apt I think your point is still
[23:52] taken. You'd want to look at the age of housing stock, index by
[23:56] geography and index by value to understand what those impacts would be for sure.
[24:03] And you know, I think as we're talking right now specifically about houses,
[24:07] we can probably shift this conversation from Ward three downtown towards Ward two in the
[24:12] West End. And what we have seen is Counselor Costante making some noise publicly
[24:21] throughout the media. I spoke with him about it, and I don't mean
[24:22] to say noise in a disparage in contact by any means, but there was.
[24:26] I'm sure anyone who's listening right now has seen this Facebook but the post,
[24:32] but for those who haven't, it was a Facebook marketplace ad for a
[24:37] room rental has a photograph of the room. It looks like a living room
[24:42] in a like, you know, Partington type house, So it's a big
[24:48] living room, is what I'm trying to get across. But there are two
[24:52] dividers that go down the floor, coming out about six seven feet and they
[24:59] are sep three mattresses that are spaced one next to each other. And then
[25:04] there's another photograph that shows a room that I would describe as a like an
[25:10] oversized closet. I suppose you could also describe it maybe as an undersized children's
[25:15] bedroom. It has two mattresses on the floor with a space in between the
[25:22] two of them that like literally I couldn't describe as wider than maybe Shaquille O'Neal's
[25:29] foot, difficult to maneuver. I mean, it's the units of measure are
[25:33] always interesting on this show. You're trying to I just I won't be able
[25:37] to have a good visualization all this to say, what the fuck I mean?
[25:41] This is not good. So one of these beds is being rented out
[25:47] for three hundred and twenty five dollars a month. The ad says six beds,
[25:51] one bath house and these are double beds, so like you got to
[26:00] presume like maybe the guys bringing on a girl. So like if they're both
[26:03] filled, you got six beds, twelve people, one bathroom on like a
[26:07] good Saturday morning after a good night out of Friday night kind of thing.
[26:11] The situation's bad like this is, this is not good, and the counselor
[26:18] is saying that, you know, obviously we need to pay attention to this
[26:22] and figure out how to deal with this. And Dug, I'll let you
[26:26] pick up from here because I know that you had indicated this one when we
[26:30] started chatting. Yeah, I thought I thought this piece was really interesting.
[26:36] I think, like or this this post by by Fabio Costante. It is
[26:44] rare to see someone in this town in a position of responsibility like Fabio Costante
[26:53] point the finger at an institution. So I haven't We haven't talked about that
[26:57] yet. You might want to set the tape. Okay, listen to John
[27:02] giving me a little little broadcast clinic here. People might not know all the
[27:06] things you know. Done, Doug. What I did was I I handed
[27:12] off the silver platter to you to let you eat the ship on air.
[27:18] Well, I sit back and you'll grab a Bubley all me? Right,
[27:22] Jack, thank you? This does the champion. John. Seriously, I
[27:26] can't think of anybody I'd rather have next to me in a foxhole. So
[27:33] fully, shit is getting bad, Doug. Good luck, So Costante and
[27:37] his comments said, many of these rentals are occupied and marketed to students.
[27:42] These same students that are post secondary institutions recruited in the many thousands over the
[27:48] past five to ten years. Any housing development proposed by these same institutions have
[27:55] not materially addressed the enrollment that has been brought in. They should and can
[28:00] do much more. You know, you're right, it does make a lot
[28:03] more sense. Well, now that I've set the table right, that is
[28:07] a pretty like open shot at post secondary institutions in Windsor in a way that
[28:14] we've never seen. You don't see it very often. You don't see it
[28:17] very often. I think that Mayor Francis was not opposed to the occasional conflict,
[28:26] like public conflict with folks in those institutions, but it is rare,
[28:32] it is unusual, and I think I think it's it's long overdue for this
[28:40] conversation to move into a more public sphere. You know, this is something
[28:45] that for the past several years has been talked about, going back as far
[28:51] as the twenty eighteen election. Darcy Reno was talking about this in Word one
[28:55] about the impact on transit, specifically of international students coming to Windsor and you
[29:03] know that the college needed to better coordinate with the city and so forth,
[29:08] that that was a person running for election. Now we have an elected official
[29:15] doing that. And in my mind, you know, I don't know about
[29:19] you, folks, but I've been sort of observing the conversation around international students
[29:26] and the housing crunch, been watching that play out, you know, on
[29:30] social media, in the news and so forth, and it really has bypassed
[29:36] Windsor up until now. And I'm curious what you folks think. Do you
[29:40] think that Fabio Costante's comments are a catalyst that will that will make this bring
[29:45] this conversation and discussion home and to to actually address, you know, what
[29:51] is the responsibility of the college and what is the responsibility of the university to
[29:55] the community when there is you know, a rapid increase enrollment. Do you
[30:00] think that's going to happen. No, I don't think that he's actually gonna
[30:03] have any impact, and I don't think that's a result of him by any
[30:07] needs. I think that what he's doing is important and necessary. It's provoking
[30:10] a conversation. It'll be lost in the news cycle like tears and rain,
[30:15] but I do. What would it take for that not to be true?
[30:18] Well, let me just let me just go back where I'm going, because
[30:22] I think that that will answer this. I was listening to a recent interview
[30:26] with I believe it was Patty France on an eight hundred CKLW give the plug,
[30:33] Gotta do it, and it was talking about enrollment, and they were
[30:37] they were spouting out saying like, hey, enrollment's the highest that it's been
[30:41] in a while. We're great. And the caveat, of course, was,
[30:45] you know international is doing a significant amount as well. It's I think
[30:49] four thousand, forty five hundred out of like eleven twelve thousand total or something.
[30:56] And the statement from Patty France was We're happy where are we are.
[31:02] I don't think we need to grow. We have right now is a good
[31:06] number. It's manageable, it's great, and that's fine. And that,
[31:11] to me was such an interesting statement to be made from an institution that has
[31:19] been seeking growth, growth by all means doing the private college partnership program that
[31:30] they have done with their international attraction program. And I'm not saying any of
[31:37] this in a negative sense whatsoever. It's just it was interesting to see what
[31:41] has been a strategy of growth, growth, growth, and then just I
[31:45] think it was yesterday the day before. We're good, things are fine,
[31:48] we're happy. And I think the point being is there is a recognition.
[31:52] So I'm not going to ascribe it to Fabio specifically, but I'm glad he's
[31:56] talking about But I think there is a recognition now that A there's a conversation
[32:02] about a lack of housing. B there's a recognition that we are a contributor,
[32:08] not a negative contributor. We're part of it. Just like how Transit
[32:13] Windsor has been having a conversation about how we can't pick up all the students
[32:16] over the past week to get them to school on time. They're saying,
[32:21] we serve an important role. We're doing our best, but we have limitations
[32:24] too. There's only so many buses and there's only so many workers involved all
[32:30] this. Like we've cut so much fucking fat in this city for so long
[32:38] that like we're seeing the like real manifestations of them in now. And I
[32:44] don't blame Saint Clair College for a lack of affordable housing because they are attracting
[32:51] more people in a typical city. They should just be able to go and
[32:57] attract people and it's fine. I don't know, I don't We've seen that
[33:00] across the tier. Every city that's getting students is getting creamed even to run.
[33:02] So let me finish them. So let me just finish. I think
[33:07] what it speaks to, though, is the fact that everything is built towards
[33:09] just single family dwellings. And if we had not had this insane idea of
[33:15] everyone a nice white picket fence and to an nuclear family is fine and happy
[33:20] living there. Like we need more density, we need more winfill. We
[33:22] don't have infilled here, we have like we have such swaths of empty land
[33:28] throughout winds or. I don't blame Saint Clair College for going and attracting people
[33:32] and not having a space for them, because the city should be going to
[33:37] them and saying there's a problem here, you guys. So the city,
[33:45] you said, the city is the one who has the administrators that are paid
[33:47] well, that are the ones who are supposed to be the ones that are
[33:50] coming forward and saying what's going on. Absolutely, and the planning department,
[33:53] you know. But I don't know. First of all, I don't know
[33:54] if anybody fully expected, even even even Mike Moffatt fully anticipated the decision in
[34:00] twenty fifteen to allow open season on international students current in Canada. And so
[34:06] we've had a population increase in Ontario particular, like we've never seen, you
[34:10] know, since the eighteenth century or the nineteenth century, so no one,
[34:15] you know, So our winter's population didn't used to grow five thousand people a
[34:17] year, and now it's growing five thousand students a year plus because some of
[34:22] the students they come and then some of them get plus all the other people
[34:27] were moving here, so no one. So then students the city beyond this
[34:30] absolutely, So then the planning department should have been saying, we've have to
[34:32] figure out what to do. But as Dawn has said on this show in
[34:35] the past, and when Darcy was running twenty eighteen, houses were starting to
[34:39] be custom built around Saint Clair College two half like they were single family homes,
[34:45] except they were designed to have eight students living in them, And the
[34:49] ones around the university are being chopped up into having eight and ten students like
[34:52] the one we see in Fabio Castanity story. But I want to I in
[34:58] the in the CDC story about this issue, responding to the councilor Coastante's comments.
[35:02] We hear we have roun say again from the vice president of International Relations
[35:07] and Campus Development at Saint Clair College saying he says Becaustanti's post is a cause
[35:10] for concern. But the college has one hundred and forty open beds in a
[35:15] residence. Presumably that's sit empty because students don't want to live there. So
[35:21] the question is why don't the students want to life? Well? Where where
[35:23] is that? How is that a refutation? We have an inadequate number of
[35:28] beds that students don't want. Yeah, we have one hundred and forty beds
[35:30] for four thousand dents and the students don't want to live. So where are
[35:32] those beds and what are like the terms of those beds? Well, so
[35:37] there are two and the students we've we've done the surveys. Right, they're
[35:39] too expensive, Okay, they're not kind of culturally appropriate. They can't the
[35:45] college. The college restaurants don't serve culturally appropriate food necessarily. So if you
[35:50] live on campus and you eat bacon and eggs every morning, but you're from
[35:52] the Punjab, like is that what you So you go as a college student
[35:57] university and I lived in no end of shabby hous and not nearly as bad
[36:00] as that, you know, cockroaches and whatever living in there, because it
[36:05] was really cheap because we're eighty five dollars a month, you know, My
[36:07] friends and I could cram into a three bedroom apartment, you know. And
[36:12] so these students are saying, I can pay three twenty five a month and
[36:15] actually survive, or I can pay same crack. We don't know what's the
[36:19] rent on those student units. Is it a thousand dollars a month? Folks?
[36:22] The average new rental price and Windsor is sixteen hundred and seventy five dollars
[36:27] A yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, So I'm old. I'm sorry,
[36:30] that's not what I was. I love this, This whole conversation is
[36:35] so much fun, but it's also a very serious issue. So I think
[36:40] that the the there is merit to what you say, John, in that
[36:47] like changing conditions in the community, like the thing schools, growing enrollment,
[36:53] businesses flourishing, hiring new people, new population. These are all things a
[37:00] city should want and be ready to accommodate. But I agree with that,
[37:05] I think that that there is also a responsibility on the part of post secondary
[37:09] institutions to examine their community and ask themselves how ready are is the community for
[37:15] this? But hold on, hold on, but I think that you know,
[37:22] mistakes happen. Every city in Canada that has international students as part of
[37:30] the population mix is experiencing a bit of housing pressure. Like this is not
[37:35] this is not something that you can uniquely put at the feet of local winds
[37:38] or institutions and say like these guys bad, everyone else normal. I don't
[37:43] think that's the case. I think that you can see that this is like
[37:45] this is a national trend right there. There are negative impacts from this sort
[37:52] of confluence of trends. However, locally, the college and the university are
[37:58] you know, they are the face of this. What I think is is
[38:02] what I think is is windsor about this is that the numbers that we're dealing
[38:09] with are relatively modest. You know, we're talking about you know, thousands
[38:15] of new students. But this is a this is a decent sized city.
[38:17] We can absorb a few thousand news people hit in there. The college has
[38:21] five it's five thousand our national students, right, So so this is these
[38:24] are reasonable numbers where I think the dysfunction here is is that the the sort
[38:31] of buddy buddy collegial attitude and windsor that does not allow us to that does
[38:37] not allow us to publicly criticize each other, that does not allow us to
[38:40] make each other feel uncomfortable, that etcetera, etcetera, etcetera makes it really
[38:45] difficult for institutions to problem solve together. Uh, you know when it's not
[38:52] like, hey, let's work together to bring a battery plant and everybody is
[38:54] going to get you know, a beautiful headline in their picture in the paper.
[38:58] When it's like, when we got this crap be problem to deal with,
[39:00] and like, how do we like roll up our sleeves and deal with
[39:02] all the messing issues that are going to you know that we're going to have
[39:07] between each other to solve it. Where's the upside? How does that happen
[39:09] in a town like this? But I think I think what you're saying,
[39:12] John's kind of also illustrates that disconnect between like we want Saint Claire College to
[39:17] be successful and we've just you know, lately, you know, celebrated doctor
[39:22] France many many times. We've got the nice community pathway, We've got all
[39:27] of this stuff that you know that we've we've celebrated how successful she has been
[39:31] at taking a college which was going broke when John Strasser left, and it
[39:37] was it was it was in the news as a problem to one that is
[39:42] now routinely bringing in multimillion dollars surpluses, to the point that it's got tennis
[39:46] courts I learned recently. It has a golf course which is free for faculty
[39:51] to play on. It has a football field, it has all of these
[39:54] things. It looks like this, you know, fantastic, you know,
[39:59] into you should compare to the for University of Windsor. And we're celebrating that,
[40:02] and at the same time, in a day to day basis, we're
[40:05] seeing the poverty of students. We're seeing our neighborhoods being chopped up into student
[40:08] housing, and we're seeing, you know, every second restaurant is an Indian
[40:13] restaurant, which is glad for that. The food is fantastically I mean,
[40:15] you know, but it's the competition is good. We're seeing this and everybody
[40:21] that's driving an Uber Eats car is an Indian student. And everybody's working at
[40:23] the grocery stores an Indian student, and everybody that's working at Best buys an
[40:28] Indian student, and so they're the presence is visible, and we're sort of
[40:31] happy about that. And then we have this other problem of the fact that
[40:36] that that has created in this other social problem, and we don't want to
[40:38] point back to the college and say, well, you're doing such a great
[40:42] job, except stop doing such a great job, because it's now creating this
[40:45] other problem. So we're gonna blame somebody else. Listen, girl at the
[40:47] weed stores and the and she's really pretty. So is she a student too,
[40:52] I would imagine, So she's what the hell are you, John whatever?
[40:54] I'm just I'm agreeing with Molidas. It's like, well, no,
[40:57] no, you're not. You're branching out into downtown or not. No,
[41:01] I've established hot. There was no debate about it. It's hot. Yes,
[41:07] anyways, there's only one data point. Yes, I say so.
[41:10] I So again, here's here's where my pushbacks is gonna be. Okay,
[41:16] we have to just admit that, for whatever reason, right now, colleges
[41:21] get to act as their private institutions even though they're publicly funded. There that's
[41:24] just that's the situation that we're in. They're motivated by profit. They partner
[41:29] with private entities and we get the P trouble three C endevor or whatever private
[41:36] college public partnership endevor thing that exists. So that's that's the paradigm. We
[41:40] don't get to argue against it in this conversation. It exists. And if
[41:44] that's the case, they're just like you, Doug. So you land a
[41:49] contract, okay, peril forty two. Okay, life's great. Sure you
[41:52] need to go hire a thousand people, and you do. And you don't
[41:57] have the base here unfortunately, no one here has the skills and you've got
[42:00] to bring in a thousand people, and you do because that's your job.
[42:04] Do you have a fuck about anything other than well, this would be my
[42:07] opportunity to build the planned community of does so I absolutely would take a deep
[42:13] interest in that. Well, it's not about an example, because Walkerville that
[42:16] was precisely what that was. Sure, but let's not go nonsense. Right,
[42:22] Well, you get you ask the question and that's the answer. The
[42:24] answer is the answer is John, Seriously, listen, you have no you
[42:31] would have no mandate to do that, or if you don't have a mandate,
[42:35] but if you you would not care. You would just simply hire the
[42:37] people and expect the city can accommodate it. And what the city should have
[42:42] is simply this a by law or a trigger or something that says if you
[42:46] go and hire above X, or if you are doing why or if something
[42:51] is Z, it triggers a fucking response from the city. Where you sit
[42:55] down and a conversation happens and one of them gets to go and put it
[43:00] tickmark on a fucking piece of paper and it's track, And I don't understand
[43:04] that. I'm sorry, it's one. I don't understand how we're at a
[43:06] point right now where we can have two of our largest institutions, the college
[43:10] and the university, both contributing in a very meaningful way positively for the city,
[43:15] but in a negative way towards housing stock, and everyone's going, well,
[43:20] none of us talk to each other, and it's like, well,
[43:22] it's a it's only person and the only person to blame for their group to
[43:30] blame for that is the city. You can't blame the university or the college
[43:35] for acting in their own interest. I understand where you're coming from. I
[43:38] would love to continue to piss you off. Private business at heart, like,
[43:43] I understand where you're coming from, and I think there's truth and what
[43:45] you're saying. But instead of a by law, okay, instead of a
[43:52] by law that sounds like it would be pretty ownerous to it would be really
[43:54] tough. Not a great idea on my heart. I don't know what disincentivize
[44:01] hiring. I think that's it, I think, But I think my response
[44:05] to what you're going to say is the same thing. Well, they should
[44:07] just act like better people. But what if instead of what if instead of
[44:10] doing that, we had I don't know, some kind of communications clearing out.
[44:15] Maybe we could print it on like a publishers and distribute it to distribute
[44:20] it to residents and businesses throughout the city on a daily basis. Just imagine
[44:23] that, and then imagine that this this paper, right, I don't know
[44:28] what we call it, but I'd imagine this daily thing that people got this
[44:31] paper, had had staff who could go and talk to people, and then
[44:37] the things that those people said, oh, we go in the paper,
[44:40] and that they put it in the paper, that's right. And then and
[44:44] then when you know, so that there would be a way for us to
[44:49] collectively observe collective collectively observe new things that happened. I think, okay,
[44:57] we could see the new things that happened collective. What if it was through
[45:00] advert right, and then have a collective discussion it was distributed discussion through that
[45:07] signal to leaders what they might best do. But I'll never look, We'll
[45:13] never fucking learn. We saw it all happen in slow fucking motion. This
[45:21] could could have been mitigated, right, It could have been better mitigated with
[45:27] which I think a bit of honest, honest conversation. All. All I'm
[45:30] trying to communicate is that I think that the the the sort of the windsor
[45:36] Omerta, that that conspiracy of silence between between leaders of institutions, it's not
[45:44] good and it doesn't help. So if I had just really quickly my mentor
[45:50] obviously former host and friend and family of the pod, Mark Buscariel always used
[45:57] to say his favorite quote was a George Bernard Shawa and it was the biggest
[46:02] problem with communication as the appearance thereof. And I think that that is probably
[46:10] key to where we're at right now, and maybe not in the positive affirmation
[46:15] of we all understand the problem, but we're talking around each other but I
[46:20] think in this case, the conversation is we all understand the problem. Yes,
[46:28] yes, yeah, exactly, and that's the conversation. But I think
[46:30] that the point you made about Patty France's comments are are quite relevant. You
[46:36] know, the level of pressure, like like institutions are. I think rightly
[46:44] colleges are rightly worried about where like the provincial pushback. Right the deal I
[46:49] think originally between the Feds and the province and the colleges was like, stop
[46:54] asking us for money, don't ask us for any new money ever, and
[46:59] do whatever you want over here. Yeah, And now I think that that
[47:06] governments are looking at what anything you want looks like, and they're they're going,
[47:10] okay, well we got to pull this back. And Patty France,
[47:15] being savvy and experienced, would would recognize that. And I think that the
[47:19] institution's probably, like all colleges in Ontario, probably tacking towards moderation. I'm
[47:24] not finished on this segment yet, because well, there was two things I
[47:29] wanted to say. One was just a bit of detail that the federal government
[47:31] is starting to hint that they will not approve visas if you cannot house the
[47:37] people that are coming good. So that's going to slow down now that the
[47:40] downside of that is at Saint Clark College and the other colleges may no longer
[47:44] have multimillion dollars surpluses and may need to think about how do they how do
[47:49] they deal with their lack of money. But the other thing where they started
[47:52] dug and because I want to go back, there was this thing about you
[47:53] know when you have like a really good joke that you want to make,
[47:57] but you can't do it because it's a public forum. Yes, I have
[48:00] one, I have like twenty days. Okay, well, sorry, I'm
[48:04] gonna be non funny. They kill counsel You started this with the politics of
[48:09] Fabio Castante taking on the university in a very much sonna. I'm gonna respond
[48:15] to the reason I think that he is in a position to be able to
[48:19] do that as party is in the second term as a counselor. But it's
[48:22] also party because he he swept that war. There was absolutely no doubt he
[48:28] was going to win that war, and that the people who voted for him
[48:31] are not the University of the college. They are big institutions in his ward.
[48:36] Whether they like him or not, has nothing to do with whether he's
[48:37] going to get reelected. So he can take on those institutions and say,
[48:43] you are creating a gigantic problem for the people who vote for me or the
[48:47] people who live in these in this community. And so I have nothing to
[48:52] fear from you, Rob Gordon, and even less to fear from you,
[48:53] Mike Silvagi. So I'm gonna go I'm gonna go hard on this because I
[49:00] can make a real difference to people's lives, the people who will both her.
[49:02] Yeah, and I think you're right about You're You're exactly right about the
[49:07] what enables it. And and I think also though, you want to point
[49:12] out that Fabio is being pretty savvy here because he's also rushing to fill a
[49:17] leadership vacuum, right, And that's that's smart politics, you know, going,
[49:22] you know it's going and rushing to the point of conflict and getting yourself
[49:28] into a established conflict like that's one thing. But but rushing to a vacuum
[49:34] and filling it and saying, hey, you know what, we need a
[49:35] little leadership here, that's pretty cool. He is incredibly savvy. He knows
[49:42] where to pick his battles and which ones like will actually matter, and I
[49:45] think that you're absolutely right. Like the university and the college, they can
[49:50] go yell and scream at him if they decide to. It doesn't matter.
[49:53] They're not able to muster their students to go foot against Fabio. It does
[50:00] matter because like he's got his own stituments that he's rallying for and they're going,
[50:04] oh no, the student vote. But that's the show title, Oh
[50:10] no, the student vote. The irony. The irony is that actually he
[50:15] can. They're in his running. At least one of them is in his
[50:19] running. He can piss them off. It doesn't matter. But the people
[50:22] who care about the reputation of those institutions, who want to protect them all,
[50:27] you know, they're doing the best. They can't the alumni, they're
[50:30] the ones who vote for the mayor. Well, yeah, the mayor can't
[50:32] make people mad at the college and the university. But Fabulou. I don't
[50:36] advise Fabio to run for mayor a Belle River like that wouldn't be a good
[50:39] idea. You're right, does he speak French? You want to move on?
[50:45] Yeah? Yeah, we're like running long, so we'll do this one
[50:50] quickly. It's an interesting one. Former mayoral candidate word for counselor Rosanie Politics
[51:00] emeritis uh, the founder of Rosary Politics. We can say that asshole,
[51:07] Chris Holt. I love him to death. What a great guy. It's
[51:10] actually it's actually in our corporate objects that we have to we have to make
[51:15] by those all of that's the that is the introduction that we have set up
[51:17] for him. I was just reading the script. That wasn't my ad lit
[51:22] His majesty, Chris Holt had posted if we on Facebook, if we continually
[51:28] plan and consult in regards to the downtown revitalization survey. We have we chatted
[51:35] about that yet on the show. We don't think. I don't think.
[51:37] Okay, so the city winsor's launching a new survey. We're going to figure
[51:39] out how to solve downtown. We're spending a munch of money with the same
[51:43] strategy corp Town. Can we talk a little bit about that in the segment.
[51:46] Let's just do this first. No, no, let's no, let's
[51:49] set the place at the table. It's fine, okay, So yeah,
[51:52] we're deciding that we're gonna go spend one hundred grand. We can't spend one
[51:55] hundred grand to figure out how to fix the Jackson Park Bandshell, but we
[52:00] can spend one hundred grand to figure out how to solve perceptionist. It's an
[52:06] interesting survey. You took it, Yeah, I did. There's there's I
[52:10] think I think in this thread, Agostino says that it's up to fifteen hundred
[52:15] responses as of whenever. He said that, so lots of interest in this
[52:20] topic, which there should be. I took the survey, and I felt
[52:23] that the survey was very, very interested in my opinion on the police and
[52:31] my opinion on my opinion on the street involved people downtown. Those are like,
[52:40] it's it's do you want the police to bust heads? Is? I
[52:45] think the kind of the thrust and the drive of this uh survey, there's
[52:51] a lot of questions in there. There's there's but but to me, it
[52:52] seems like there are some there are some Maybe it's it's fair to say that
[52:59] there are some policy see choices kind of embedded in the survey from the start.
[53:05] Yeah, I don't think that's. Uh. I don't think you're telling
[53:08] any hell tales there with that. And when you go through it, you
[53:13] see it's much like these new types of public engagement surveys that we have in
[53:19] windsor very well crafted, well well published. It's it's very descriptive. And
[53:25] then you realize that you're playing Fallout four and that you're like railroaded when you
[53:30] have a conversation with someone and you think that you've got an opportunity to go
[53:32] like four different ways with things. I'm gonna go to the science road,
[53:36] I'm gonna go to the bully road, I'm gonna go the lover's road or
[53:38] whatever. And then you find out, oh, it doesn't matter. All
[53:42] that I can do is get to the one answer that they want, which
[53:45] is the predefined outcome that they want the survey to bring you too. It's
[53:52] solution. But I see, I just agree about being well crafted survey.
[53:55] I think it was very badly because I don't mean well crafted in terms of
[54:00] like a statistically great survey. I mean it wasn't in the fact that,
[54:02] like it looks good, it achieves the purpose for the average person to go
[54:07] through it and go those are good survey and not think about the things that
[54:09] we ever talk about. I just want to make that distinction. It's a
[54:13] ship survey, it was, you know, because I mean it was asking
[54:15] like the ordinary person on the street. You know, what are some other
[54:19] things we could be doing about homelessness and housing and poverty. And You're like,
[54:22] why do I pay taxes if not to pay for you guys to have
[54:27] the experts who know down. I don't know. If I knew that,
[54:30] I wouldn't pay taxes to you guys. So there's so there was a whole
[54:32] lot of that kind of question. There was a question about, you know,
[54:36] are you satisfied, you know, highly satisfied to desaudy, dissatisfied with
[54:39] the police presence downtown. So I went I actually put other because I wanted
[54:44] to say I'm happy there's police downtown. I wish they weren't walking around the
[54:46] downtown farmers market and bulletproof vests, making me wonder if I should be wearing
[54:51] my bulletproof vest. Like dissatisfaction, Yes they were there today, five for
[54:54] them bulletproof vest if if I like, yes, precisely. So I'm not
[55:01] dissatisfied with the number of police or the presence of police. I'm satisfied with
[55:06] the way the police are policing. But there was no way to answer that
[55:09] except are you satisfied or dissatisfied. Well, remember when our by law put
[55:13] on bulletproof vest it was three or four years ago. Yeah, and I
[55:17] guess that's the same thing. But like if if the way that our administration
[55:23] determines that the best way to keep their employees safe on our streets in the
[55:30] mean hours of eleven thirty two one thirty pm is a bulletproof vest or a
[55:38] security vest? What does that say about? Like one where the headspace of
[55:45] our city is? But also too like where the where where the city?
[55:49] I don't know. I think it's honestly overreach. I think that's probably driven
[55:52] by labor though. Yeah, if if you if you go to the end,
[55:55] that's probably a health and safety thing. So if it is a health
[55:58] and safety thing, then why isn't that a demand? What do you mean
[56:02] it is? It probably is? No, Why is it a demand?
[56:06] Why? The reason being is because they're going you're not doing things adequately.
[56:12] We feel we feel unsafe, and you know, if you're going in knocking
[56:15] on strangers doors whatever I mean, I can I can kind of understand that
[56:19] you feel anxious. So are we doing enough to teach people how to be
[56:22] There are shootings in there are shootings to the say, so, but what
[56:25] happens at the downtown's farmers market. There's are all kinds of us down there
[56:29] and our T shirts and sandals with our dogs, and then five people in
[56:31] bulletproof vest. What is going to happen down there? You need to bulletproof
[56:35] vest for because if there's a mass shooting, which God knows maybe there would
[56:39] be, would all be dead? Should we all be wearing bulletproof vest at
[56:43] the farmer's marking? That? Like, So, that's what I wanted to
[56:45] say, that can we think more broadly about the perceptions of safety we're creating
[56:51] through policing that wasn't available in the surveying like it was just and then the
[56:55] thing that really it's interesting because on that thread eye and I'll stop ranting.
[57:00] But so it asked this question that you had only one option. You don't
[57:04] choose one thing. I live in downtown, I work in downtown. I
[57:07] come downtown a lot. I never come downtown. These are not musically exclusive
[57:12] answers. And knowing the combinations, I live downtown and work towntown. I
[57:15] live downtown, I don't work downtown. I don't work downtown. I like
[57:19] to go downtown those options weren't available. So I said that that was too
[57:22] bad they weren't available. So counselor Agastino responded, that's a problem, I'll
[57:25] fix it. So now the survey potentially has been changed. That just blew
[57:30] the survey statistic competency out of the water. Now it it's meaningless. So
[57:35] I don't changed it in the middle of I don't know how like I don't
[57:37] know that these consultants make a lot of money. Okay, well there's there's
[57:43] there's that's a fair point. I don't think this is the worst like survey
[57:47] in the world, and I don't think that the I don't think that the
[57:51] technical like any technical issues with it are which I really wouldn't understand anyway,
[57:55] are are so egregious compared to the their like city consultations that happen. I
[58:01] get where you guys are coming from. It's just like I think it's a
[58:05] little I think it's a little aimed at a certain like policy direction, but
[58:09] you know, it is what it is. Like they're trying, they're asking
[58:13] questions, okay, and so so that's the kind of the background. Now
[58:19] we've dissected the survey and going back to Chris Hole posts on Facebook September twenty
[58:25] eight, seven O three am. If we continually plan, it's called being
[58:31] precise, John, Okay, if we contin if we continually plan and consult,
[58:36] we can say we're actively working on an issue without ever actually working on
[58:39] the issue. Hashtag downtown revitalization hashtags status quo is all we want about one
[58:46] hundred and thirty one likes. I got in trouble the other day for not
[58:51] being precise about likes. It's one hundred and thirty one likes, two hundred
[58:54] and twelve comments, and two shares. So, uh, one of the
[59:00] hotter threads in town. I would imagine it was, Yeah, that's definitely
[59:04] a fair way to assess up. And it's it's like, it's a I'm
[59:09] trying to think of a one word way to characterize this thread. It is
[59:13] something to see. Let's call it that. Lots of the usual suspects in
[59:17] there in terms of frequent commenters and boo birds on city issues, but also
[59:23] Counselor Rinaldo Agostino jumps in. Mayor Drew Dilkins finds time to from his busy
[59:30] schedule to jump into a thread by his defeated opponent, and uh, it's
[59:36] all very amusing and all very interesting, and I encourage everybody to go take
[59:40] a look. What do you guys think. I want to just focus on
[59:45] the Merrick Jilkins jumping in on it. I think that is just that's so
[59:49] funny to me. I'm feeling like this is like high school politics. Like,
[59:54] Okay, Drew, congratulations you one. You're the president of like the
[1:00:00] school council. We get it. You're the coolest kid in the school.
[1:00:05] Maybe you're the football jock whatever as well. You got the letterman jacket,
[1:00:08] you're walking the hallways, you got the pretty girl on your arm. Life's
[1:00:13] great. And you got like Chris Holt there, like sitting in the drama
[1:00:16] club and he puts up a little post on the wall about his complaints about
[1:00:22] like, oh, I just think that the lunch should be served this way.
[1:00:25] And then you got like the high school principal or the high school uh
[1:00:30] president walking in, well, here's my thoughts about it actually and puts him
[1:00:35] a dendum on the bottom of the note on the wall. It's just so
[1:00:39] weird. It is. It is weird, and I like, I don't
[1:00:45] I think it's pretty high school politics. Like, well, it's a little
[1:00:49] unbecoming, like the you know, probably mayor Dilkins should have resisted that temptation.
[1:00:53] But but I this whole thread is it's like it's an it's an entry
[1:01:02] in the Internet of beasts, you know what I mean? Yes, And
[1:01:06] and I guess, like you look at the content of that post. Whatever.
[1:01:13] Chris Holt is is a guy. He's a guy in the city.
[1:01:15] He's not elected, he doesn't have any responsibility, but a guy who a
[1:01:20] lot of people who are going to read these words just just kind of casually,
[1:01:24] uh, you know, has a content free really content free like negative
[1:01:30] shitty comment that that spurs two hundred and twelve comments of like completely pointless like
[1:01:39] name calling and fighting. Yep, So so is that good? So so
[1:01:46] well, is there out there to be and I don't think I agree,
[1:01:51] but out there to be a sort of statute of limitations on while you you
[1:01:53] ran for office and now you need to go and not so much to lick
[1:01:57] your wounds, but you need to maybe go and create space for somebody else
[1:02:00] won so give them some space to be the winner for a wall Like is
[1:02:04] that something that appropriate? Thing? That's not what I'm saying actually, I
[1:02:07] think I think my perspective more is that this is kind of a waste of
[1:02:14] the platform. Uh, you know, not very many people in this town
[1:02:20] can generate two hundred and twelve comments with you know, one sentence and and
[1:02:24] generate all this activity and energy and and I don't know if it's even fair
[1:02:30] to do this, because it's not like I read all of Chris Holtz pulse
[1:02:34] and posts and I'm making some kind of you know, content analysis and saying
[1:02:38] well, eighty two percent of the time, but in this particular case,
[1:02:42] right, Like, I just don't think it's a contribution. I think that
[1:02:45] if if it's a hard spot to be in though, right, because like,
[1:02:49] what is your I'm really thinking about this, right, what is your
[1:02:52] responsibility as uh, you know, a previously elected official. If the guy
[1:02:58] wants to chirp, like why not chirp? Right? Is it his job
[1:03:00] to fucking sure I'm gonna be the elder statesman who has to make sure that
[1:03:06] thinks like or or is it just like I go, fuck yourself, Well,
[1:03:08] but you could have had me, but you don't get me. And
[1:03:12] I'm going to criticize on the sideline. I don't think that Chris is going,
[1:03:15] like going like burn it down. I guess I like, I just
[1:03:21] I'm not necessarily ready to like, you know, crucify Chris Holt over this.
[1:03:25] Yeah, but I do think it's an interesting conversation, and I like,
[1:03:30] I take your point. I think that I don't think that this is
[1:03:34] healthy. It's what I'm trying to say. I don't think that's I think
[1:03:36] you're right. I don't think this is healthy. I don't think this is
[1:03:38] a healthy discussion. It doesn't help, and I don't think it helps.
[1:03:42] I'm I'm not I'm not mad at Chris. I don't think Chris is a
[1:03:45] jerk, but I think like, and maybe this is just what social media
[1:03:51] does, but like, this is not healthy. But that's sorry. I
[1:03:57] think he's entitled to do it. I mean, beyond the like the side
[1:04:00] of like we all have the right to do and say whatever the hell it
[1:04:02] is that we want to do. I think he is more than entitled as
[1:04:06] a you know, a failed mayor all candidate who had a sizeable amount of
[1:04:12] people who wanted him to be in office, who has an electoral record that
[1:04:15] he can look back on. He has the right to you know, quip
[1:04:19] comment, condemn, criticize, compliment. However, he sees fit and I
[1:04:26] think most people don't though, right, But I think I'm a different point
[1:04:30] I want to make before I get cut up again. But so Chris Chris
[1:04:36] Holt chose to run for mayor counselor Portland chose not to run for a seat
[1:04:41] again. Both of them have engaged in it's in this kind of stuff,
[1:04:45] right, but prior to them, like, is this the thing that you
[1:04:47] said? So Counsel mar ran against Sarah Francis, He stayed out in the
[1:04:51] sidelines and then came back and run as the councilor got reelected again. John
[1:04:56] Elliott got his seat taken away by counsel Christanti went away, Hilary Payne lost
[1:05:00] his seats, Karen McKenzie went away, Percy Hatfield gave up his seat,
[1:05:05] became an MPP, did his MPP job because Marri Chick gave up a seat
[1:05:10] to be an MP did juven Gil lost his seat went away. So the
[1:05:14] only two people that have been engaging in this in my memory of being living
[1:05:17] in Windsor, are you know, Borland and Chris Holt. There's basically a
[1:05:21] personal fight going on between those two guys and the and the current mayor,
[1:05:26] and it's going to continue to go on until all of them are dead.
[1:05:30] That is how this is going to go. It has nothing to do with
[1:05:32] being a I don't know that that's a really fair point, Linda. I
[1:05:36] don't know. I think that's a part of it. But I also think
[1:05:40] that, you know, the smaller the politics, the bigger it becomes,
[1:05:45] the easier it becomes. With provincial politics, there's so many different issues that
[1:05:49] are always flying around the vast majority people can't keep track, let alone.
[1:05:54] You go to the federal level, the same thing. I mean, this
[1:05:56] Spall's easy to understand. I know, transit sucks, and Chris was my
[1:06:00] guy with transit, the road sucked. Drew's my guy with Rhodes or whatever
[1:06:04] the hell is, right, So I think that there is like a like
[1:06:10] Chris. He was, he was this, He was the standard bearer,
[1:06:13] he was the flag holder, and he was the hope that people had.
[1:06:17] And it's not that he like I don't think he like he's made it clear,
[1:06:21] he's not doing it again. He's out. He's like a fuck that
[1:06:24] it's all behind me. But he still has the audience and like so he
[1:06:29] makes the statements, is it good, is it bad? Whatever it happens,
[1:06:32] I guess the point being is it's incumbent upon a Dilkins to be able
[1:06:38] to diffuse them, and he's deciding that jumping into the phrase is the best
[1:06:43] course of action. I think that's stupid. I'd go through the media,
[1:06:45] quite frankly, to just reiterate my message rather than doing what he did,
[1:06:50] or be whoever is looking to unseat Dilkins should probably be looking to emulate or
[1:07:01] capture that audience and pull them over to their message, their side, and
[1:07:06] we aren't seeing that yet. So Chris, right now, in a absence
[1:07:12] of leadership, in this vacuum of whoever the new person's going to be,
[1:07:18] do you think that it helps develop that? I don't think. That's not
[1:07:23] the conversation I'm having, and I would agree with you that no, it's
[1:07:26] not good. So I want to address what Melinda had to say. Your
[1:07:31] point about their being like an eternal personality conflict between these three people and it
[1:07:36] never being resolved. That rings really true to me. And also it's going
[1:07:42] to be a hell of a lot funnier when Dilkins is out of office too.
[1:07:45] Those threads are going to be a blast. Okay, I'll subscribe to
[1:07:48] all of them. You know, I think, though, like also Melinda,
[1:07:55] you brought up Borderline who has continued to comment, there is a substantive
[1:08:00] difference though. You know, I have seen Reno's tweets on issues, and
[1:08:09] he does post a lot. He posts a lot of commentary on things that
[1:08:13] are occurring in municipal government. But there's their long threads. There are threads
[1:08:18] that provide information, like there is a there is a perspective being presented,
[1:08:24] like he's he's this is just drive by. You know, this is just
[1:08:29] like Chris Holtz comment here is like one sentence of just right. So I
[1:08:35] do draw a distinction between those two. And I think if if Chris had
[1:08:40] posted three hundred words here to talk about you know, here's the history of
[1:08:45] the issues downtown and this is my thoughts on it, and this is what
[1:08:47] I why I think this misses the mark, you would not have the same
[1:08:50] thread at all. M Perhaps you know there was another failed to mail candidate
[1:08:56] in that in that thread is Robert Easterbrook, those who don't know it ran
[1:09:00] for mayor in twenty ten nights. I didn't see those comments I'm so excited
[1:09:05] to read those now I'm even in that thread, and I didn't notice that
[1:09:11] it's interesting. I like, though, the idea that you bring up,
[1:09:14] do of, like, what's the responsibility of, you know, someone who
[1:09:19] wanted to lead our city in their post decision to lead our city? And
[1:09:27] what does it say I guess about the leadership style that we could have had
[1:09:32] under those situations. And I don't I don't want to be overly critical any
[1:09:38] means, because again, like I think, like he can go and say
[1:09:40] and do whatever he wants. But he's yeah, absolutely setting like you know,
[1:09:45] an antagonistic, you know, scorned tone. He's upset, he's telling
[1:09:50] you, I mean, hell, I did an interview with him. He
[1:09:56] basically said, like he could have had me. I spent one hundred grand
[1:09:58] and you didn't get me. Look what you get now, and this is
[1:10:01] the outcome. And obviously he's upset and he wanted to have it. But
[1:10:08] I don't I don't know does someone have to still carry the weight of leadership
[1:10:15] after losing. I guess it's sort of the question that we're going to right
[1:10:18] now when you decide I'm done. I don't think I think that there's a
[1:10:23] difference between half to and should like those are those are like? I don't.
[1:10:29] I don't like those words in this context because I think it's I think
[1:10:33] that what I would say is that you should apply your electoral judgment retroactively to
[1:10:41] the commentary and ask yourself how this would affect your choice to vote if you
[1:10:44] knew about it in October twenty two something. We can all take a couple
[1:10:51] of beats and look back on I guess, yeah, I mean certainly you
[1:10:56] know I wouldn't. You're not going to see me doing it. And and
[1:10:59] I think we have to acknowledge that that was an ugly, ugly fight.
[1:11:02] Terrible things were said, and there's probably a lot of long lasting trauma that's
[1:11:08] going to inform the way somebody might throw off some comments on Facebook thinking I'm
[1:11:12] just I'm just mad, I'm not going to say this thing, and then
[1:11:15] it turns out that you're saying it was just a throwaway comment that winds up
[1:11:18] with this gigantic rant. I hadn't let he among us who has never talked
[1:11:23] shit right right, But I had an opportunity to talk to our MPP today
[1:11:29] Andrew Dowie at the Orange Shirt Day events. By the way, anyone listening,
[1:11:31] if you haven't you done something for reconciliation today, you still have time.
[1:11:35] But you know, Jadrew and I are on the different sides of the
[1:11:39] political spectrum. And what we talked about like how hard it is to be
[1:11:44] the guy who's out there and like hearing from thousands of people and trying to
[1:11:47] weave some kind of tapestry of a response that represents your community. And you
[1:11:53] know, it's hard not to take things personally, I think. And that's
[1:11:55] why you're never going to see me in any of those roles because basically I
[1:11:59] take the you know everything seriously personally. So never say never. Melinda,
[1:12:08] Well, I mean you can, but you can. I mean you can
[1:12:12] say, you can say it. I mean just who knows, I don't
[1:12:15] know. It's I mean, this is cal It's just I feel like it's
[1:12:17] this is one of those conversations that we have. It would be nice to
[1:12:24] have a Rosby Politics where we all sat around and went, hey, this
[1:12:29] is a really cool thing that's happening. We all agree it's great, Like
[1:12:33] wouldn't that be nice? Hey, Orange Shirt Day is happening. It's a
[1:12:35] really cool thing, and we all agree. September thirtieth Orange Shirt Day,
[1:12:41] National Truth and Reconciliation Day, absolutely excellent point to end it on, rather
[1:12:46] than my descent into a rant about how terrible things are, folks, it's
[1:12:51] rosity politics. Thanks for listening on September. What the hell man, Oh,
[1:12:59] I'm just this, I'm just I'm just laughing about how bad it would
[1:13:01] have been if I did just decide to go into that like terrible rant about
[1:13:04] how bad things were. And now I'm laughing as I do the outshow.
[1:13:08] You can support us that you know, Patreon or in print by reading Business
[1:13:12] Magazine or you know. We always love to thank Lee and at six two
[1:13:16] five Building Better Communities

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