# Dingdongs or Twinkies?

An episode of [Rose City Politics](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247337855), 10 Feb 2024, 54 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/58640433/dingongs_or_twinkies.mp3

Jon, Frazier, Don, Kristen and Doug talk about the end of additional federal homelessness funding and the latest in the Jackson Park bandshell saga. Rose City Politics is brought to you with the kind support of LiUNA Local 625: Building Better Communities. Support the show at Patreon.com/RoseCityPolitics. Read our stuff in Biz X Magazine an online at BizXMagazine.com and RoseCityPolitics.ca.

## Transcript

[0:24] Hey everyone, Alcuniversity Politics, February tenth. A regular panel includes Doug sar
[0:29] Tory, Don Mayfield, Junior Fraser, Father's Kristen si Appis, and myself
[0:32] John Lidkey and none of us have nicknames. Support us at patreon dot com
[0:36] slash Rose City Politics. Why you gotta be like that? John Well?
[0:41] Do you want me to bring up your name name? I definitely got of
[0:44] us report stars in the eighties. That's let's make it an item for next
[0:47] week. We all come back with a nickmas someone else self nominated, welcome
[0:51] for someone else. You don't get to choose your own name. Everyone's likes
[0:55] Secret Santa. They don't get to pick a name. Names in Manhattan.
[1:00] So we're all coming back when MC names for Dawn right, Yes, okay,
[1:03] we are in print and viz X magazine and Rosie Politics able to broadcast
[1:07] live on tape thanks to the kind support of Lena six two five building Better
[1:11] Communities. And this is gonna be an episode where I don't read any dates,
[1:15] so let's just ignore those right now. At the top, Windsor is
[1:18] sounding an alarm, a big one. It's a big bell. I think
[1:21] they installed on top of City Hall, and we've got Mayor Dilkins up there
[1:23] right now and he's just hammering this thing like it's the old cat. Everyone
[1:29] knows this is Quasimoto is you know, he's listening. He's letting all of
[1:33] us know. There's a big problem. If I had to pick an elected
[1:37] official to be Windsor's Quasimoto for the record, it would not be Mayor Delka.
[1:41] Well, yeah, I definitely wasn't thinking Again, I said, like,
[1:45] you know, Catholic Church. I wasn't. Okay, I would not
[1:49] compare the tallest person I've seen in my life other than Fraser Father who's directly
[1:53] to my left right now, to a hunchback of not Tom. But whatever,
[2:00] let's go into this. The city is we're going to be receiving less
[2:01] funding from the federal government in regards to homelessness initiatives, and that's going to
[2:07] be starting this year, and that's going to have an impact. This reduction
[2:10] in funding may mean eliminating or reducing some of the services for the homeless population,
[2:17] such as housing, supports, outreach, and even data collection, and
[2:21] the city has reached out to provincial and national associations to advocate for more funding
[2:28] and to express concerns about the federal government's goal of ending chronic homelessness by twenty
[2:31] thirty. And of course this reduction and we are, of course in the
[2:35] midst right now of an acute housing crisis. We've got about seven hundred households
[2:38] experiencing some form of homelessness, as well as about eighty five hundred people right
[2:46] now on the affordable housing weightlist. Now you have got to presume as well
[2:50] that those eighty five hundred on the weightlift represent families in some cases, so
[2:54] the numbers are much larger than just what we're looking at right now. The
[3:00] city, though, of course, missed an opportunity to access thirty to seventy
[3:05] million in federal funding for affordable housing. And that's because city council decided to
[3:09] say, nah, we're good, we don't want to allow for plexus by
[3:14] right throughout the entire city. So did I hear you correctly? The Windsor
[3:19] City of Windsor plans on solving chronic almost by twenty thirty. The Feds,
[3:23] the Feds, all the feds do it. Well, We're concerned. Yes,
[3:27] I also like the idea of like being concerned about it, like the
[3:30] concern that we're going to do it, or concern that we can't do it,
[3:32] like the concern it held to account for bullshit target dates. Yeah,
[3:36] and you know again like Kristin, you did such a good rant last week
[3:38] about the I'm not even making icon. Yeah, there's no reason to.
[3:43] I went on do that keeping my eyes down. I'm looking at the screen.
[3:46] We we gave up that housing Accelerator Fund money, and this is,
[3:50] you know, yet another situation of the city going and you know, having
[3:54] hat in hand, going to different governments going please, please, please,
[3:59] sir, I'd like some more. When they were like, what the hell
[4:01] we we literally just tried to give you money. This is literally seven days
[4:06] later, it's like we just did this show. We just did this show.
[4:13] Yeah, you know, I like, I hear you, and I
[4:16] think it's a fair point to make. But but I also think that there's
[4:23] like we can talk about how too wrongs don't make it right here. So
[4:26] my understanding of it from the news pieces that this money was extra money that
[4:31] was advanced during COVID to municipalities. So the I think the reality is though,
[4:36] that no municipality has the resources that it needs to know in the country,
[4:42] no municipality has the resources it needs to deal with the growing challenge that
[4:46] we have with homelessness. So it's not surprising to me that when that when
[4:53] that fund was temporarily increased, that that that money was immediately absorbed by the
[4:59] municis put to good use based on what I see in the piece, And
[5:03] I don't think the government should withdraw this money. You know, I like
[5:08] I. I I understand the perspective of uh, mister Kismerichik, and I
[5:13] do think that the city was foolish not to bend in order to in order
[5:17] to get that housing fund money. But that's got nothing to do with this.
[5:20] This is a federal government decision, and I think it's wrong. And
[5:26] it's two different pots of money, is it not. I mean, we're
[5:29] talking about the housing money that we ended up whatever however we want to say,
[5:33] not qualifying for because we decided not to allow the four plexus as of
[5:36] right. But that's not exactly what this funding is. To me. This
[5:41] funding is is you know, as you said, it's necessary, it was,
[5:45] it was dedicated to different types of programming. I think that that you
[5:47] look at the housing and homelessness of the h four hub if if that's what
[5:53] it went towards. I mean, it's not like the money that we would
[5:55] have gotten in in the other case would have gone towards that it would have
[5:59] solved our house issues in a different way. But I think it's I I
[6:03] certainly the city needs this money in order to continue operating, but I understand
[6:08] kind of the arc of how this happens that if it's temporary funding, it
[6:12] has an end and we have to look at how we're going to solve this
[6:15] complex problem with our own budgets. Right, my perspective is that federal dollars
[6:18] are insufficient. You know that the fact that this money went to essentially core
[6:26] programming in Windsor indicates to me that the federal funding is not there. And
[6:31] I don't think that you can. I think there are things municipalities can do,
[6:34] but I don't think that you can solve homelessness out of the municipal tax
[6:38] base. So senior government has to be there. And if the government has
[6:44] a stated goal of ending homelessness by twenty thirty. What I did not see
[6:48] in that article was any statement by er Kizmerichek to explain what the government is
[6:55] doing to achieve that goal besides taking away funding. Instead, he wanted to
[6:59] divert and talk of the black eye that Drew Dilkins took last week. So
[7:02] I think there's a couple of pieces to this. And I agree with christ
[7:04] and these are two different pots of money, and that's a very important distinction.
[7:09] But I also think, you know, I think then they're losing about
[7:12] two hundred and fifty thousand dollars this year, and then it's like two point
[7:15] two or two point three million next year. So let's contextualize those dollars.
[7:19] First of all, that went to core services at the age four, which
[7:23] means the municipality before COVID was not funding core services at the age four.
[7:28] Sure where I think in other communities, you can look around and those services
[7:30] may already be funded out of the municipal tax base in those other communities.
[7:33] So maybe it's just our ammunist. So maybe it's just because again, have
[7:38] we seen the same call from other municipalities. I haven't, because I assume
[7:42] all of this money is getting rolled back for every municipality that got it across
[7:46] the country. Again, two point five million dollars, give or take,
[7:49] is half of one percent of a tax increase. So if the city is
[7:55] serious about its housing and homelessness plan, that it has its own plan four,
[8:00] has its own ten years Strategic Housing and Homelessness Plan. And yes,
[8:05] the city has made significant investments through COVID and it leveraged upper levels of government's
[8:09] funding for that. They bought a hotel and it's now the Women's Welcome Center
[8:13] shelter. You know, it was originally a COVID hub and then it was
[8:16] transferred to be a shelter for women's and families if it's provided addition all sorts
[8:20] of additional supports out of water world, leveraging those. But at some point
[8:24] there has to be a conversation and again, this is the piece that we're
[8:28] missing here locally arguably, is like there's no strategic conversation about is this the
[8:33] role of municipal government because federal dollars will always come and go, Provincial dollars
[8:37] will always come and go, and you'll always just see, oh, we
[8:41] had two years, and you know, look around the nonprofit sector. You
[8:43] get a trullion grant for two years, it's an amazing best program in the
[8:46] whole wide world, and then it drops because no one locally picks it up,
[8:50] whether that's you know, local fundraising or whatever. So I think that
[8:56] there's certainly a conversation about I agree with you, it'd be great if the
[8:58] Feds were to continue that top up of money. But the fetets are already
[9:01] core funding, as I understand, it's certain programs in the community anyway already.
[9:07] And then the question is, you know, are we willing to pick
[9:11] up the tab if necessary. So I take your point about about the housing
[9:16] and homelessness hub. I take your point that if the city has the plan,
[9:20] the city should have an idea of how it's going to pay for it.
[9:22] I think that's fair. Uh, And I do think that, you
[9:26] know, we've talked at length about the the nature of budgeting and tax increases
[9:31] in Windsor, and there's certainly there may be room in municipal budgets for this.
[9:35] There's certainly no room in the Windsor municipal budget for this. So I
[9:39] think those are all those are all fair points. The withdrawal of this funding
[9:46] is going to cause problems unless the city comes to the table and tops it
[9:50] up. So my you know, I guess the real the real question is
[9:56] how how positive do we feel that the city will continue this strategy abbs in
[10:01] federal money. Well, I think so. I think there's no impact this
[10:05] year, like the report says this year, like the two hundred and thirty
[10:07] thousand's getting made up somehow, right, so they were able to sort of
[10:11] touch that off again without knowing specifically how some of these where that two point
[10:16] whatever cut next year is going to go. Like it's hard to say,
[10:18] right, like is it is it staff or is it like the cost of
[10:24] food and snacks at the hub or something like that. I don't know where
[10:28] those those dollars are going or what they're being put towards. And so there's
[10:31] a bit of a challenge there because, like you know, if there's city
[10:33] staff being supported through this funding, you know there has to be a conversation
[10:39] about like is this going to be like any other grant, whether it ends
[10:41] the city city's going to lay these people off, or or is there going
[10:45] to be a plan to sort of stabilize that system and those supports And I'm
[10:50] I'm assuming some of those staff are deployed at their city funded the sort of
[10:54] their federally funded positions at nonprofits in the community, whether it's like family services
[10:58] or various shell or whatever doing housing supports or being outreach workers and things like
[11:03] that. So again, you know, at some point when push comes to
[11:07] shove, you know, the city has its own housing and homelessness plan on
[11:11] top of whatever the federal strategy are. The city's plan aligns to that federal
[11:15] strategy. So you have to make a choice. And like if the Feds
[11:18] and what is going to be an election year probably next year, like,
[11:22] is it unreasonable that they come back and you know, split the difference or
[11:26] something like that, or go back to the usual you know, thirty thirty
[11:28] thirty model that you know, the Feds put some money in and try and
[11:31] get the province to put some money in, and the municipalities on the hook
[11:33] for some money. Sure, but like you have to assume that if they're
[11:37] not, you know what's gonna happen. Well, the city's gonna have to
[11:39] step up or it's gonna have to let stuff go. Yeah, And I
[11:43] guess thinking in the bigger picture, because you mentioned the election year coming up.
[11:48] If if there's a change in government, then you have a serious question
[11:52] about where that funding will go. So I guess it's got check time for
[11:56] the city one way or the other, most likely probably. I want to
[12:00] say also that the goal from what I'm reading, I think if the goal
[12:03] is to reduce chronic homelessness nationally by fifty percent, not to like eliminate it.
[12:09] So it's it's the goal is there, and it's and it's set for
[12:11] like over the course of several years. So as this funding dwindles over that
[12:16] time, the chance increases that another program will come into its place, or
[12:20] the other funding will become available. So while you know, we look at
[12:24] the numbers today and go like, well, that's bad, but we can
[12:26] absorb it for the next couple of years anyway they've said, and then it
[12:30] could get much worse after that. I'm I'm still also really optimistic that either
[12:35] another program or another type of funding or another government or you know, well
[12:37] the elections will happen, something will happen that will shift this in that time,
[12:43] and that'll provide more opportunities. It's not gonna be cities that are just
[12:46] left on the hook for these programs that they can't continue well, and that's
[12:50] sort of what you're seeing. It So happened in Toronto, right and Olivia
[12:54] Chow and the refugee crisis and how you know, So in theory, if
[12:58] there's core native advocacy across communities and across cities, the federal government will probably
[13:03] come to the table with money. But you know, will they is windsor
[13:07] leading to charge I have no idea, right And and it's an interesting question
[13:11] how how much political capital will municipalities spend, like how much of their goodwill
[13:16] will they spend on the homelessness issue versus others? So we need a unified
[13:22] front and not to shoot ourselves in the foot. John feeling really confident on
[13:30] this one. I think we can solve this maybe like you know, six
[13:31] months, and we can back it in. Well. I having to say,
[13:35] if we had to choose between funding snacks and staff, I'm always going
[13:39] to be pro snack. So it depends on the snack, right, I
[13:43] don't I don't want my dollars paying for twinkies well ding dogs for sure.
[13:48] Alternatively, it depends on the staff too, because I don't want my money
[13:52] paying for ding dongs or twinkies either. So I think we got the nicknames.
[13:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess in the bigger picture, you
[14:03] know, when Doug kind of let off, like this was you know,
[14:05] this was temporary funding put in place during COVID. But and now we're gonna
[14:11] try and half the people are not gonna be homeless by twenty thirty. So
[14:13] homeless people look to the left and right. Money is gonna be fine.
[14:18] I think, you know. The reality is, Look, it's different pots
[14:22] of money. It's all that kind of bullshit. It's all politics. The
[14:24] reality is the government, all levels of government have to decide if they're serious,
[14:28] insolvent, I'm fixing the homelessness situation. There's always money to fix anything
[14:33] if that's a top priority. The problem is, look, I've been hearing
[14:37] this. Look I'm the oldest guy here probably, and I've been hearing this
[14:41] since the Bob Ray days, that oh, we're gonna fix homelessness, We're
[14:45] gonna fix poverty, we're gonna fix all this by throwing this program. And
[14:48] it never changes anything. It actually just gets worse. So the reality is,
[14:52] if government really wants to fix this problem, they can. They know
[14:54] they can. The money's there, they just have to take it from somewhere
[14:58] else. They just offered us thirty four million dollars that we turned down.
[15:03] If there's thirty forty million dollars for infrastructure. There's thirty forty million dollars to
[15:07] help these people who are living on the street. We just chose not.
[15:09] We just choose not to do it because politics. It's honored for that politics.
[15:13] So that funding that we got during COVID, it never should have been
[15:18] temporary. Homeless people didn't go after COVID. Okay, I'm gonna go home.
[15:22] Now, that's not how it works. So it's you know, I
[15:26] get, you know, I understand. You know, I'm living in an
[15:30] idealistic brain right now. But the reality is the government wants to fix every
[15:33] level. The government wants to actually fix the most problem they can. They
[15:37] just constantly choose not to. It's an election near next year, so they'll
[15:41] come back and say, oh, we're gonna throw it, we're gonna pay
[15:43] for it again because you know, we're awesome both for us, and then
[15:45] two years later the funding is endo spare again we're gonna argue about it.
[15:48] It's a constant cycle, election cycle, campaign cycle, political cycle on all
[15:54] levels of government that just uses these problems as campaign and I don't think they
[16:00] even want to solve the problem because then they have nothing to campaign on.
[16:04] They can fix this problem. Every level of government can. We've just chosen
[16:08] not to. Behind this chiseled, jaded exterior that you present at work,
[16:17] I think we have just seen that the true Don Maryful believes in a big
[16:22] government that is able to solve our societal problems through serious and meaningful intervention and
[16:30] dollars to spend. I believe in a government that should focus on main priorities
[16:36] and not spend billions of dollars on bullshit that doesn't matter. Government shouldn't be
[16:40] doing. If we actually focused on what government should be doing, we could
[16:44] fix almost every problem this coumry, you're a distinguished liberal knife rad more water
[16:48] parks. I mean, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, we
[16:53] spend one hundred million dollars to building aquatics center that could have housed a lot
[16:56] of homeless people, but they'd be all the time, but then be going
[17:02] down the slides out and the snakes. Okay, well, let's keep our
[17:07] conversation going in the ongoing I have this effect on parties too. I just
[17:15] off ramp please in its ongoing coverage and a series of outsiders looking into windsor
[17:22] making us all feel more and more uncomfortable each time the Globe and Mail is
[17:27] keeping their coverage going and a new story came out today, Windsor is expecting
[17:32] an economic rebound and a housing crunch, and it talks about how, of
[17:38] course, while we are looking at the building of the next Star battery plant
[17:45] and the thousands of jobs that would come from that and from the spin off
[17:51] of it, the city is of course dealing with this workforce impact on the
[17:56] housing market. We don't need to go too much to that conversation specifically about
[18:03] how we got here and why. I guess we can just, you know,
[18:06] more broadly have the conversation about again, here's this sort of falls into
[18:11] what I like in my ongoing series of it's not good when people notice us.
[18:17] I'd rather not. It's it's a lot better when when we are the
[18:21] only ones make It's like, this is our city to make fun of?
[18:23] How dare you? Every time we become a world class city on the media
[18:27] landscape, it's never for the right reason. Just like these guys, I
[18:32] don't know, I think you got to chart the progress, like is this
[18:33] better or worse than penis Bush? Worse? There is excellent? The last
[18:44] thing I would want is like Barbara Walters being like and the ones there's housing
[18:48] situation devastating wait wait till, wait till you hear his don not so yeah,
[19:00] no, just I don't know. It's another one of these like not
[19:02] great. It talks about a twenty eight year old who has a master's degree,
[19:07] administrative job and he lives with his parents and he can't get a mortgage
[19:11] approved that's enough to enter the housing market whatsoever. It's got a great graph.
[19:17] It shows a city of windsor city of windsor average home prices. No,
[19:21] I mean, like, this is the problem that's being faced everywhere.
[19:22] The biggest thing, though, is that we've had this housing correction, as
[19:26] we've discussed on many times, that took place rapidly over a twenty four to
[19:30] thirty six month period when it should have taken place over a fifteen to eighteen
[19:33] year period. But numbers game. Here we are and yet again we got
[19:40] this spotlight. And one of the main points is that, hey, these
[19:45] roubs didn't take the money of the Feds we're offering, so I guess we
[19:48] can sort of keep that conversation. Well, it's interesting because it's almost a
[19:51] high class problem, right, we got so many jobs showing up going to
[19:55] be showing up in the city. And this new battery point that, you
[19:57] know, holy crap is his fan fantastic old boy. Where are we gonna
[20:00] put them now? The reality is that people who are coming to work at
[20:04] those jobs, if they're coming from out of town, they're not gonna have
[20:07] a problem buying a house because they canna afford it. This is all trickle
[20:11] down misery as opposed to trickle want economics. So those, you know,
[20:17] I assume that people working there are gonna be probably comparably paid to your typical
[20:22] Chrysler work or something. No, give me no. So this is one
[20:29] of my issues with this article actually, is the general assumption that the battery
[20:33] plant jobs are all gonna be you know, there's gonna be a segment of
[20:37] battery plant jobs that are high professional, high skill, high performing. But
[20:41] there's another segment of battery plant jobs that in the US. At the Navstar
[20:48] battery plant, which is owned by LGN and Ford, starting rates are sixteen
[20:52] dollars an hour US, which translates to twenty one dollars an hour Canadian,
[20:56] which is only like forty eight thousand dollars a year. So, like you
[21:02] have to remember, this is a part supplier for auto parts. This is
[21:07] like a big Tier one supplier or an engine plant. This is not necessarily
[21:11] the finished OEM plant. So it's not gonna be they can't have comparable wage
[21:15] rates because if they do, the price of a car with a battery in
[21:18] it becomes because if like you've removed the internal combustion engine, you replace it
[21:22] with his battery, the cost per battery unit goes up, which drives up
[21:26] the cost of the overall vehicle significantly more than if like the cost of this
[21:30] widget at some subcontractor plant goes up because they give him a higher wage.
[21:34] So I don't know if all of the jobs at the battery plant are actually
[21:38] gonna be high wage jobs and people going to come from somewhere else to do
[21:44] the twenty one dollars hour jobs, I would have it, I guess to
[21:48] say no, maybe not, But I think I think like the question,
[21:51] like you're right, there's gonna be a filtery of housing, right, so
[21:53] there will be like engineers and like the CEO of Nextstar is going to probably
[21:57] end up living here somewhere, and he going to be able to make a
[22:00] lot of money, and he's going to buy a house somewhere on Lake Shore
[22:03] probably, and if he is Don Ras Junior dot jown, Well, and
[22:07] I think there's something interesting there because like there is a pool of unemployed people
[22:12] to Windsor, and I think the question is, like, to what extent
[22:17] can the battery plant draw on that pool? And to what extent will those
[22:22] jobs be attractive enough to draw people from who are already in work into those
[22:27] jobs? And I think that is the question, right how many of the
[22:32] jobs are unskilled? Though well, I don't think any of them are unskilled,
[22:36] but I think like, like there's going to be a university degree or
[22:38] college diploma requirements to get into that place. But like again there's already that
[22:44] requirement to get into almost every plant in the city right now, which leaves
[22:47] out a lot of Windsor R work exactly right. And so like I saw
[22:51] with the Michigan whatever, one of their EV plants that they're setting up there,
[22:56] the deal was that they had to set up a Trenal Academy community benefit
[23:03] agreement. So it was like an eight month program where he's like all those
[23:07] airplane engineers we got out from that place down at the end, we don't
[23:11] talk about that, don no. Sorry, But so like the point being,
[23:14] just like these are not walk off the street job, and here we're
[23:18] not seeing that educational component. So it's expected that you've already got a degree
[23:22] so you can just walk off the street. So there's gonna be a lot
[23:26] of shifting. And like here's my question, right, like odds are I'm
[23:29] going to ballpark it and say, like an average assembly packing whatever job at
[23:32] the battery plane is probably gonna be in the sixty thousand dollars a year range.
[23:36] How baib of a mortgage can you get with sixty thousand dollars a year
[23:37] as a household income mortgage exactly getting so like this so this look I make
[23:45] more than that? No, yeah, And you know what, just I
[23:48] think I mentioned this a few weeks ago just on a lart Go was on
[23:52] the my financial calculator system on the computer. I couldn't get approved by my
[23:56] house right now. How many people are in the same boat. How many
[23:59] people right now in our community could not afford to buy the house? I
[24:03] would say, I couldn't have majority, I wouldn't be the majority the majority.
[24:07] And so when we have it's also and this is and this is this
[24:11] is the problem. It's not the housing crisis. Is Windsor has an income
[24:15] crisis, and that income crisis has gone back. Doug and I have talked
[24:18] about this on our other podcast, and I think on this podcast, you
[24:22] know, like Windsor's wages have been stagnant since like two thousand and six.
[24:25] Well, I think, and they're going up now, but they're not catching
[24:29] up to like housings up two hundred percent. Wages are up six percent.
[24:33] So it's like, what are you gonna do? Right, So I think
[24:36] we have both problem because if wages one up fifty percent means because there's a
[24:41] limited supply houses, Yeah, there's not enough houses. So the cost it's
[24:44] just like you know, when margatg rates martgage rates are gonna go down.
[24:47] They're already down, you get four point nine right now, but when they
[24:48] get back down to like three and a half maybe three, I mean,
[24:52] prices are just gonna go up. It's all based off of monthly payments.
[24:55] That's all it is. Yeah, So I think so one of my my
[24:59] challenge with the story is there's an assumption there that next Star is going to
[25:03] sort of ramp up and there will be a proportion of people who will come
[25:07] to this community for that job, for those jobs, and I don't think
[25:10] they're going to have a problem. And they won't have a problem. The
[25:12] problem will be the trickle down effect, as Don was sort of saying,
[25:15] and the filtering that will occur. So like you know, if you're an
[25:18] engineering student now and get into a job there, well you're gonna get out
[25:21] of a basement apartment that you're in now, or out of your parents' basement,
[25:23] and you'll be able to actually afford a house. And the problem is
[25:27] is someone actually able to get into that basement apartment or whatever. As rental
[25:30] rates had hit an all time high, as vacancy rates have hit an all
[25:33] time low. And I think the other piece of the story that sort of
[25:37] missed there is it And rightfully so, they're focusing on the city of Windsor,
[25:42] but the amount of building that's about to happen on the Comsy side of
[25:45] the line right there, right near like to com see this is the tool.
[25:48] I think there's like five hundred home scheduled to go in there. You
[25:52] know, a lot of buildings about to happen outside of the city of Windsor
[25:56] around that plant. Well, I think that's important job, and we obviously
[25:59] were in ro city politics, so we focus on Windsor. But when you
[26:02] look at housing in this area, you can't just look at Windsor because I
[26:06] can go from here to Amersburg in twenty five minutes. So when you talk
[26:10] just Windsor numbers of just is Windsor gonna be able to build enough houses for
[26:14] whatever the situation? No, of course not. But when you factor in
[26:17] LaSalle Essex to come see Amazburg chains billet play, you have to look at
[26:21] as a whole because there's many everybody in my family except my mother, lives
[26:26] twenty thirty minutes away, and a lot of them work in Windsor, So
[26:30] it's you have to look at it regionally. So but if if if you
[26:34] want number one, if you want Windsor to capture its share of population growth,
[26:40] and if you think urbanism is good and sprawl is maybe negative, then
[26:45] then it's a problem that the city is being outcompeted or being out produced,
[26:48] at least on housing by the rest of the county. Yeah. I don't
[26:52] think Windsor thinks that's a problem. I think when's its delusional about the way
[26:56] that we need to build, Like we need to acknowledge that we are at
[27:00] the urban center because the building that's happening, well, we have to be
[27:03] the building that's happening that you just described Windsor as downtown for the region.
[27:08] Like basically, I mean if building is happening into Company and LaSalle and Amersberg,
[27:14] and when I think about the people that I know that make I don't
[27:17] know what am I going to say over one hundred thousand dollars in their household
[27:21] income all put together, they're not living, you know, the people who
[27:22] can afford a single family dwelling. Let's say we have to stop putting all
[27:27] of our eggs in this single family dwelling basket because it's not going to happen
[27:30] for us. We need to we need to build more density, and we
[27:33] need to acknowledge that that's our role as the city and that's where people are
[27:37] going to, that's where the need is going to be. So I think,
[27:40] I think when I agree with you, I do think though Windsor is
[27:44] building density, but it's not building density where you think it's building density.
[27:48] And so you want to know where the most density part of the city is
[27:51] going to be in about five years, Bamwell Road. Bamwell Road will be
[27:53] the new Windsor downtown from a population density perspector, because there's like a thousand
[27:57] apartment units already construction out there and another two thousand have been approved you know
[28:03] over the last few years. Well know this, so geographically, what is
[28:07] the economic well and we've talked about this before as like downtown is not the
[28:11] economic center of the community. It's you know, pre you know, twenty
[28:15] twelve, it was like, you know, around the Stalantis plant is probably
[28:19] moving further south and east as it goes right and Sandwich south and the hospital
[28:23] will full pull it sort of further that way. So I think, like,
[28:30] and this is where you know, I've sort of you know, the
[28:33] Fraser hates downtown sort of thing. Like I think we have to, like
[28:34] there has to be an honest conversation about like Windsor is I agree, the
[28:38] urban center for the region, but what does that actually mean? And I
[28:42] think like, cause like LaSalle is building a decent downtown, Amasburg has an
[28:48] amazing downtown, Bell River has a great mountain downtown. You know, Tacompsy's
[28:52] starting a downtown in Old DUCOMPSI like, they're all building their own little walkable
[28:56] communities here, and so thinking of Windsor as like one downtown amongst whatever is
[29:03] the wrong way to consider. We have many comparable business districts to the downtown's
[29:07] distributed across Esex County. There's there's three or four in Windsor that would compare
[29:11] to it. Yeah, I agree, but right I just don't. I
[29:15] don't think that's what I mean by by like that we should be the downtown
[29:18] for all of these different communities who each have their own air quotes downtown so
[29:23] to speak. I just think that we need to be realistic about who actually
[29:27] lives here, like who actually lives in Windsor and versus like who's taking home
[29:33] the income in Windsor and where are they taking it home? Too? Like
[29:37] where are they actually live when we actually look at the people who live in
[29:41] our neighborhoods. And I say this as somebody who does, like, granted,
[29:44] have like a Walkerville downtown urban bias because that's where I live and that's
[29:47] where I work, But like, we have a lot of people that I
[29:51] think are not captured. You know, when you look at this article and
[29:52] you see statements from the mayor that are like, I'm steadfast in my commitment
[29:56] to safeguard Windsor neighborhoods. City Council will continue to represent the best interests of
[30:00] residence and do what we can to protect their most valuable asset, their homes.
[30:03] How many people are not captured in that statement. How many people are
[30:07] not owning their own home because they're living in uh, you know, a
[30:11] necessarily dense area of Windsor where they are just renting. You know, when
[30:14] we look at the issue of housing affordability, which is what this brings up,
[30:18] how many people in Windsor can't afford the homes that they live in,
[30:21] and if they're living in a place where they're renting, there's no hope for
[30:23] them whatsoever to buy. If they make an income that is significant that allows
[30:27] them to purchase a home, are they not just as likely to purchase outside
[30:32] of Windsor. And at that case, how is this battery plant going to
[30:36] help Windsor specifically benefit We can't benefit to the extent that we need to do.
[30:42] It's such a great point you raise, you know, because I don't
[30:45] think that that is understood enough. Like Windsor is poorer than it's gross domestic
[30:49] product. Yes, like so much of what economic activity that is generated in
[30:56] Windsor is taken as wages and spent outside of our community by people who live
[31:00] and to come see Lake Shore, LaSalle, Amisburg, et cetera. Come
[31:06] into Costco and look, do not take it to the wall. They all
[31:15] come to work one day and then they can't leave. I'm hearing some toll
[31:19] road. I got some like bacon Man toll roads. This is why Ernie
[31:25] Lamont never read. I agree with Kristin. I agree completely with Kristin that
[31:30] that the only way for Windsor to to thrive in the future, in a
[31:34] future where the county is increasingly becoming denser, is increasingly becoming urbanized. If
[31:41] not urban, Windsor needs to be the urban center of the community. I
[31:45] agree with that. I think that we should be leaning into things that make
[31:48] the community more affordable. We should be leaning into things that differentiate the community
[31:55] from the the all those wonderful downtowns out in the county. Like we can't
[32:00] be Lasel, we can't be Amisburg, we can't be Kingsville, we can't
[32:02] be TACUMSI we can be Windsor. But why does Windsor have to be crappy,
[32:06] Like, why do we have to be a crappy like a crappy copy
[32:10] of every county municipality. That's our vision, that's what we're gonna build.
[32:15] Well, I agree with you, but I think I think the challenge is
[32:17] one of Windsor as there's no opportunity costs and that you can get as done
[32:22] said anywhere in the county in twenty minutes. Well, and to the point
[32:27] that Kristen made, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but to the point
[32:30] that Kristen made, so many of our like the wealthier people in our community
[32:36] don't live here. They do not have the same experience of living in this
[32:39] community, of accessing its services. And look, if you are I don't
[32:45] know, if you live in Lake Shore and you are on the corporate leadership
[32:51] team at the City of Windsor, like, how how much do you really
[32:55] understand the lived experience of the people who are residing in downtown Windsor the people
[33:02] who are residing in uh Ford City. You don't. You don't. And
[33:07] and I would argue that that is a big part of our problem, that
[33:12] there is there is democratic demographic solidarity between the outer suburbs and the and the
[33:20] nearby municipalities, and there is no solidarity with the urban core. No,
[33:23] I agree, and I think and the point you made is like, but
[33:28] the problem is is one of economic mobility, right, And you know the
[33:32] only way that you can control for that is to put a price on that
[33:37] somehow. And that's either a time price or it's a fiscal price. Right.
[33:42] So, like if you want to start toll roading, you see row
[33:44] and come see road when it comes in. No, Like it's like,
[33:47] like that's that's the simplest answer, right, Like is like right, the
[33:52] hard answer, the hard answer is like, Okay, are you going to
[33:54] mandate that senior leadership team members of the City of Windsor live in the City
[33:58] of windsor that you That's not that's not the no, the hard that that's
[34:02] not it. The hard answer, Like the hard answer is to look at
[34:07] all, look at what can this community uniquely do and what are the actual
[34:10] needs of this community? Right And and like I understand, I understand why
[34:15] that's a challenge. And I we just talked about the reasons why there are
[34:20] structural challenges because people, people who make decisions in some cases don't understand the
[34:25] consequences of the decisions that they're making. And quick, yeah, go ahead,
[34:31] Who was the last Let's just go with mayor who actually lived in the
[34:37] what we would consider the core name one. I can't remember one. Well,
[34:43] you'd be going back to the previous century for sure, because you're going
[34:46] here going back past nineteen ninety. Yeah, I mean even in the eighties
[34:51] when I lived in these gate of States off Jefferson, right, he lived
[34:55] out there somewhere. So I don't know of any mayor in my life time
[35:00] since I've been paying attention that is actually from lives on Victoria. You probably
[35:05] have to go to like nineteen hundred, like is like a closer to that
[35:09] period when South Windsor didn't exist, South exist, Like yeah, then it
[35:14] was a Lockerville mayor. You know what, I don't know. So we
[35:19] need how do we increase our revenues to be able to fund our services well
[35:24] to meaningfully deal with it? So you guys don't want to wall What if
[35:30] we had like a charismatic leader who like could help us, you know,
[35:36] just like expand a bit more into the if listen, if we just accept
[35:39] that sprawl is the situation. Then, like, what if we just get
[35:44] Kirsten so mad? Right? You want in tech? I kind of want
[35:50] low in tech actually, because I do think that that's like, there is
[35:52] a contiguous community Lisle Windsor to come see. We we they should just amalgamate.
[35:58] We just need a little bit more. We just need a little bit
[36:01] more living space, is all I'm saying. We just occasionally turn off you
[36:07] guys, didn't notice that I was doing. I did. I thought it
[36:12] was funnier to just let you do it. But well, to go back
[36:15] to the political so you know, you know, we're beating up on the
[36:20] bear quite a bit for the last few weeks because of the house, and
[36:22] it's noticed because of the housing thing. But realistically, he's doing exactly what
[36:28] his constituency wants him to do. He's not a mandate. His constituency is
[36:31] all of us, No, not his voting one. Guys. I don't
[36:37] think that, But yeah, why I don't. I don't think that that.
[36:40] I think that that like, and I've said the same the same thing
[36:44] many times, but I don't think that voter coalition is as monolithic as people
[36:46] make it out to be. He does I certainly think so. But but
[36:52] I think there are an awful lot of people who are our status quo voters
[36:55] who are along for the ride, and and the right the right conversation and
[37:00] the right the right set of values presented to the electorate might change things.
[37:06] Yeah, I think that's certainly a viable argument to make. I think the
[37:10] question, you know, those words are English, don't don't bring me to
[37:22] this guy's praiser. I don't you speak good? I gonna say, but
[37:30] I think to sort of circle it back to you know, Windsor has structural
[37:36] problems, and I think those structural problems, you know, I think the
[37:40] region is geographed and the region and the Windsor structural problems are amplified by the
[37:45] region in a lot of ways. And like the problems challenges, you know,
[37:51] acknowledging those differences, I don't. I don't think that they're I don't.
[37:52] I don't think it's unique to have these problems. Actually I think they
[37:55] are, Yeah, And like there's data to point that they are. They're
[37:59] very cities laid out like Windsor in Canada. And you know, the best
[38:02] comparator city is not Hamilton, it's actually Saint Catharines. Right, go look
[38:07] at Saint Catharines. It's butt up against Lake Ontario, surrounded it by nine
[38:10] other municipalities. Is the largest population center other than like Niagara Falls. Probably
[38:16] it's comparable to Niagara Falls, like, but it it has Niagara on the
[38:20] lake. So it's funny because the only reason you go to Saint Catharines is
[38:23] to get to Niagara Lake. And there's a lot of people who would come
[38:27] from out of town. The old reason to go through Windsor is to get
[38:29] to the wineries out on the coast. Yeah, and so but so,
[38:32] and like you go dig into like the data there and they have a lot
[38:35] of the same structural problems that we do. And like again they have a
[38:38] small as a municipality, small population base, but they have like a regional
[38:43] hospital that's just been built out of the fringes of Saint Catharines, and they
[38:45] have all of these things, right, and so you know, this trickles
[38:51] back to all sorts of governance decisions and you know, structural decisions. You
[38:54] know, I am where I am landing in this conversation is I think,
[39:00] like you have to think about Windsor as not I agree. You can't think
[39:06] of Windsor as a monolith, But I think you have to think of Windsor
[39:07] as a series of sort of subcommunities within it geographically, and you have to
[39:13] look at the economic and community viability of each of those subcommunities separately. And
[39:17] that's a bad way to look at a community because then you create us versus
[39:21] them within a community. But like downtown has no income generated in it,
[39:25] Yeah, that's its problem. What's the gross domestic product? You know,
[39:29] the university dominates West Windsor, and it's a student population that dominates West Windsor.
[39:34] And you have bad actors like the Ambassador Bridge that prevents proper housing to
[39:37] be built in West Windsor, And you have a historic section of the city
[39:42] that actually prevents densification in that part of the city as well. You know
[39:45] Walkerville, going to former Counselor Borderland's comments in the article about you know,
[39:51] zoning creates, you know, classiests and racist lines, Well, Walkerville is
[39:54] a massive heritage district that you can't build anything in. So do are we
[40:00] Is he talking about throwing out heritage protections for Walkerville so that we can put
[40:04] density in Walkerville? If the house burns down, can we put up a
[40:07] small apartment built along? So these are these are like so you want to
[40:13] have these conversations like each of these subcommunities have I then you know link that
[40:16] to city wards, right like so if you want to look at each ward
[40:20] economically and viability wise, the suburban wards are the viable one. They're the
[40:24] ones that generate revenue or generate income rather so so and I think you're right
[40:30] because just to talk about downtown for a minute, since we touched on it,
[40:34] you know for a long time, I think I bought into the argument
[40:37] that the thing that downtown needs is residents. That we need feet on the
[40:42] street, we need bodies, we need people living here. But that is
[40:45] just not going to generate enough economic activity to change the trajectory here. What
[40:49] what downtown windsor needs is a new economic engine. And the Yeah, I
[40:52] agree with you, and like I think and I used to debate Mark about
[40:57] this because he was all excited about the law school may come downtown your home.
[41:00] Have all these law students like a restauranteur's perspective. A restauranteur's perspective great
[41:04] for him, but like the gross domestic product of our thriving restaurant scene in
[41:08] the downtown core is actually not that large compared to a handful of anchor employers
[41:14] who would be down here. And they don't want a bunch of law students
[41:16] down here. So I run a business downtown and we're here, and I
[41:24] would say that downtown has supported us, like we have downtown customers. But
[41:29] when I look at the when I look at the scale of like what is
[41:34] available to my business in downtown Windsor versus what is available in any other part
[41:38] of the community, and it's just not comparable. I also think in Windsor
[41:44] there's a lot of echo chamber going on. The people who will live in
[41:47] Walkerville or maybe Victoria, who are on the upper end scale of the income
[41:52] bracket. I think they overestimate how many people want that lifestyle. You know,
[41:58] I understand, look, people hatespearol find a hate spearul, But I
[42:00] think in my business, I've been doing this for almost quarter a century now,
[42:05] the still overwhelming, overwhelming prevailing idea is you're going to start out in
[42:10] Windsor and then ultimately you have a family and you want to get out of
[42:14] Windsor. If you want to live in the sale, you want to live
[42:15] in the East End, you want to live in Riverside, South Lendsers.
[42:19] I think when you know, like Reno in the story, when they talk
[42:22] to a lot of these organizations who really are based off of urbanism, I
[42:25] think we vastly overestimate how many people in this community actually want that kind of
[42:31] lifestyle. I think it's very well, you'll never know until there's decent housing
[42:36] stock available, right, we don't provide that kind of lifestyle. And it's
[42:38] you know, like if we were really invested in urbanism, if we really
[42:43] started to commit to it, I feel like there you attract that and there
[42:45] is a necessity for it. I mean the people who you're seeing who are
[42:49] buying outside of windsor who are moving up in the world, or you know.
[42:52] I do think that there is like people overestimate the people who live in
[42:58] those pockets, overestimate the desire that the general public has to live in those
[43:01] pockets. I think it's more niche than they realize. Speaking as somebody who
[43:06] I think probably fits into that category myself totally. I think that there's also
[43:12] a big slice of the demographic that are not being captured in this that and
[43:16] this is what I mean when I say winds there has to be realistic about
[43:19] who we are and what we have to offer. If we have areas that
[43:22] need densification, that can offer that type of perhaps more affordable or like the
[43:27] you know, somebody's starter home or something, than we should be leaning into
[43:30] that because we don't have the space for all as well, you can't the
[43:34] math never works. I mean to buy a lot out just even to get
[43:37] the basics oudly, So downtown generally you're gonna have thirty to forty foot lots.
[43:40] I'm on a thirty foot lot. I live downtown. You go into
[43:44] a subdivision. Even if you knock those lots down to forty feet and said
[43:46] okay, you can build on forty feet, you're probably looking just for the
[43:51] lot and permits. You're almost at two hundred thousand dollars. So the City
[43:53] of Windsor at the February whatever council meeting is selling twenty six lots surplus land
[44:00] that they've found. Yeah, two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a lot.
[44:05] Yeah, So that's and that's like an infill off of it's like somewhere off
[44:09] of like it's near south of the four test track, So just for the
[44:14] land, just for land, just for the line. So to give you
[44:16] an actually just like that's insane because he used to build a high house in
[44:20] this for like seventy five fact, and not long ago. I was an
[44:24] adult when that happened, and I'm still an adult, but I don't consider
[44:30] so a fun fact. Back in the early two thousands, I had that
[44:32] contract for the city. Our office had it, and my boss gave it
[44:36] to me. So do you want to sell off excess lane for the city.
[44:38] Sure, I can go on about how corrupt that system was. How
[44:42] many did you keep for all of us that we're going to find out about
[44:44] after the show. That's right, look your chair, it's a free winds
[44:49] and building up. But those lots, honestly, when I was selling them
[44:52] back in the they were twenty seven thousand dollars. Those kind of a standard
[44:55] and that was what year early was this two thousand and four, but yeah,
[45:02] yeah, they were the standard didn't filled. The city has random lots
[45:07] all over the place. The probably have hundreds of them still, which I
[45:08] don't know why, but the fact I haven't seen the new ones. But
[45:14] if they're actually trying to get a quarter million farm. First of all,
[45:16] they're smoking crack. They're not gonna get quarter million farm. But say it
[45:20] wins folks, But they will get six figures. For sure. You can't.
[45:24] You can't buy an infill lot, even if someone subdivides their property for
[45:29] less than six figures. You just can't. So to say, well we
[45:32] have to put affordable housing, maybe it's it's just it's just not gonna happen.
[45:38] Well, this is one of those fun ones. Once again I sucked
[45:42] the air out of the room. Well my question is like, are we
[45:45] still on topic too? Yeah, we wandered. Fight later I killed topic
[45:52] four, so we just got one last. Okay, it's for you Kristen
[45:57] again. And how well we found out from the Greater Essex County District School
[46:04] Board who's responsible for the land that is needed to revive the either very good
[46:13] or very bad Jackson Park excuse me, very stupid or very not stupid Jackson
[46:19] Park Banjo. They say, hey, why have you painted a picture where
[46:25] you're saying that we're not willing to work with you. No, no,
[46:30] no, Jacques Hughes, we don't like this whatsoever. We are totally on
[46:34] board if you want to do a partnership and a land sharing agreement, we're
[46:37] fine with that. We don't want to sell it, but like, please
[46:42] don't allow a narrative to persist, especially during Black History Month, that we
[46:47] are the reason why the historical Emancipation Day culturally significant stage that had so much
[46:57] to do with our windsor black community. We are what standing in the way.
[47:01] Notice he's like doing theater. I well, because I want to be
[47:06] on the stage. Obviously my one man show of Windsor is stupid. John'll
[47:12] be doing now this is I love this. This is to me such a
[47:19] such a fun story because like it's good needling. It's a fan story,
[47:24] never ends, it's just every week. This is like yeah, I mean
[47:29] like it was done. We were okay, we see we're going to spend
[47:31] one hundred thousand dollars and we'll just you know, ignore it enough that we
[47:37] can justify. We'll put it on the exactly, and they're collecting dust.
[47:42] But here we are the school boards. Just like nope, you thought it
[47:46] was over. We are just actually entering chapter one. Everything before is that
[47:52] property? Is that property the winter Stadium property, or is it adjacent?
[47:57] It is the winter stadium property. H So we if I got this right,
[48:00] we can either have a stadium or a banshee. We can't have both,
[48:04] or can we? We can't have the problem. There's a fence running
[48:07] down, Okay, so it's we take down the fence. There's room for
[48:09] everything. Okay, yes, all right, I'm gonna tear down this fence.
[48:15] So you're a terrible lady. Well, we're gonna take the fence away
[48:17] from there. We're gonna go put it up towards the county. I don't
[48:22] think that's gonna cover the border. Start. So before I start getting yelled
[48:27] at, I do have one comment. I'll let you know if it's funny.
[48:32] It's funny to me, and that's all matters. So I would like
[48:36] everybody if you can. But that was a global mail story. Go to
[48:40] the Windsor Star story. Go to the website. I don't nobody gets a
[48:44] newspaper mark and look at the photo they used of the bandshell and of the
[48:50] school board property, which is the track. Basically, the entire Bandshell property,
[48:55] owned by the City of Windsor is flooded with water and I and you
[49:00] couldn't even drive a car through there, and then as soon as you get
[49:02] across that magic fence, it's pristine and there's grass and there's a track and
[49:07] field course running around. But the picture just makes it look like basically something
[49:13] that got blown up by the Russians in Ukraine, or you know, if
[49:15] you go right across the fence's beautiful on the other side, on the other
[49:22] side of the little trees playing, you can hear the birds singing on the
[49:28] school board property or the city swamp, there's bunnies and squirrels. I mean
[49:32] that that just shows like the care that has gone into the band fell over
[49:37] the last however many years. Why are you gonna why would you? Why
[49:39] are you gonna put like new dirt around the banchack? What am I going
[49:43] to fix this puddle for? It's using this They can't fix roads. Actually
[49:47] live On has been using thirty years. Yeah, but it was used the
[49:52] road problems probably thirty five years. So this is just a process story,
[49:59] really, is what that's Let's let us talk about the banchell again, right,
[50:02] Yeah, it's like this is just I think it's a fabulous idea.
[50:06] We should be forevership because she's sitting right next to us, is not stupid
[50:12] debate. Don and I have an agreement. Now, last time we had
[50:16] in the agreement we lost the school would the school board move defence then?
[50:22] Well so, just so I think I think the conversation is really about they're
[50:25] open to having a partnership conversation and that's great. There was no way the
[50:30] school board was ever not going to be open to that, Like, let's
[50:34] not going to the devil is going to be the details around something like liability,
[50:38] right, and like you know who who is going to pay for the
[50:43] insurance on whatever this site is, and if you're going to host am like
[50:45] it hosts an event there that's going to be on both city land and school
[50:49] board land and someone trips and falls. Yeah, I agree, but I
[50:57] think I think that's the work well, and that's the work of who is
[51:01] going to pick up that cost and who is going to you know, and
[51:05] the lawyers are going to get involved and like so is there a pathway for
[51:08] it? Yes? Right, And it's like it's going to disappear for probably
[51:13] a year now until that report comes back, and that report will come back
[51:17] whenever it comes back with here's the cost estimate, and there'll be a subsection
[51:22] from administration saying, and we met with the school board and here's what the
[51:25] school board said, you know, and here's how much the land lease agreement
[51:30] is to ensure that everyone's probably you know, liable, covered for liability and
[51:35] covered for usage and all that sort of stuff, and then counsel will make
[51:38] a decision. That's really where this is going. You're hoping for a natural
[51:45] disaster to take out so we don't have to discuss the issues anywhere. I
[51:50] mean, I don't be praying for fire dying. I'll I think it's a
[51:54] great space. I think that there is potential there for incredible, you know,
[52:00] events and mixed use, which makes it it strengthens the argument. To
[52:01] me. I think that's that's a really positive thing. That it can be
[52:05] supported by both the school board and the city, and for both organizations to
[52:10] use it, I think would be fantastic. And I will stick to that
[52:14] until I get to read a report about it. I could channel my inner
[52:16] councilor of Barelli and say, has the arts community thought of asking their parents
[52:20] for the money? Oh? A viable arg Yeah, I thought, I
[52:23] thought you're gonna challenge your channel, You're inner Brelli by saying I invented a
[52:28] bow. I was the inventor in Banchelse was my idea. I brought Martin
[52:32] Luther King to the windsor right, Okay, on that horrendous note. Every
[52:42] show I loved it. This way, I only get the hate nail if
[52:47] well, folks. This was ROAs City Politics February, the tenth regular panel
[52:52] included Don Maryfield, Junior, Doug Star, Tory Fraser, Father's Kristen Ciappas
[52:55] and myself John Ldkey Head to patroon dot com slash Roast City Politics X,
[53:00] pick up a buz X and we are able to broadcast live on tape thanks
[53:02] to the kind support of Lena six two five Building Better Communities

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