# Nice Battery Plant You Got There...

An episode of [Rose City Politics](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247337855), 19 May 2023, 51 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/53935510/nice_battery_plant_you_got_there.mp3

Jon, Melinda and Doug dissect the drama surrounding the Stellantis/LG battery plant investment. Rose City Politics is brought to you with the kind support of LiUNA Local 625: Building Better Communities. Support the show at Patreon.com/RoseCityPolitics. Read our stuff in Biz X Magazine or check us out online at BizXMagazine.com and RoseCityPolitics.ca.

## Transcript

[0:24] Good evening everyone. Welcome to Rose City Politics. It is May nineteenth,
[0:31] joined right now by Doug sar Tory and Melinda Monroe. I am John Lidkey,
[0:37] Rosity Politics, able to record live on tape, saying thanks to Luna
[0:41] six two five building better communities. That's the first time in three years I
[0:45] was able to just do that completely off the cuff without being interrupted by some
[0:50] rude jerk. Well, not only that, but I don't have notes or
[0:52] anything that I was just like straight out of the brain. So that was
[0:55] pretty cool. Happy about that. Um, you know, we're just going
[0:58] to dive into the show here or with sort of the only story that there
[1:02] is to talk about, especially today with the news of the Stilantis lgs.
[1:07] Oh, we're not talking about the damage to the playground at the waterfront.
[1:11] I think just got installed. Man, I did see that they had ripped
[1:15] out that entire playground that way up blew me away. I like that playground.
[1:21] That's going to be kind of crappy when the marina goes in and people
[1:23] pull up and see it terrible, you know, a damage playground. Well,
[1:26] maybe this is why we're getting of the new playground installed right now for
[1:29] the marina because of the ample amount of tourists that are gonna be coming,
[1:32] or maybe Big Marina has vandalized the playground. Well, now we've got a
[1:38] plot where we can start digging inland and we could have a little bit of
[1:41] a canal. We took away the kids playground so the rich people into come
[1:46] see an Amasburg can come in on their expensive yachts. Not really, we
[1:49] made this up, folks. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen,
[1:53] you heard it here first. Whether or not it's true to be determined.
[1:57] We're going to talk though about this l G. S Stilantis next our ev
[2:02] battery plant story that for the past week we have sort of been in limbo.
[2:09] We know that it started out last Friday with Stilantis issuing a statement saying
[2:15] that they weren't too happy that the federal government had had not honored their financial
[2:22] commitments that were outlined in the IRA in the Inflation Reduction Act from Joe Biden.
[2:29] We know that when Stilantis and LG and the government's all locked down a
[2:32] deal that was last March, but then in September was when the IRA was
[2:38] passed, so there was a lapse time period and then I guess there were
[2:43] some negotiations that went on, but LG and Stilantis weren't happy with where things
[2:49] were at with the government, so they put out this statement saying that there
[2:52] was an impass. The weekend went by and the situation elevated to a work
[2:57] stoppage where they had put out ament saying that they were shutting down half of
[3:01] the construction on the site because there's two different components. We don't need to
[3:05] dive into much about that. And we began to see then the federal government
[3:13] came out and you know, we saw lots of affirmations, don't worry about
[3:17] this. Things are going to be fine. The plant's going to be built.
[3:21] We then saw finger pointing sort of happening from every which way. We
[3:25] had the federal government pointing their finger at the provincial government saying that they need
[3:30] to pay their fair share. We had the provincial government pointing their finger at
[3:34] the FED saying you screwed this up. You had Drew Dilkins pointing his finger
[3:38] at the Feds saying they screwed it up. Stilantis was pointing their fingers directly
[3:40] at the FEDS as well. All this to say things were a little tense.
[3:46] The week continues to go on, and then we got news that was
[3:53] really really concerning that Stillantis was re evaluating what they were going to be doing
[4:00] here. And when I say what they're going to be doing here, like
[4:03] I really mean that across the country to a certain extent, they came out
[4:09] strong and said, we really don't like this uncertainty that's occurring right now,
[4:15] and we aren't really sure what's going to be going on with Canada. It
[4:20] put the situation in Brampton into doubt. It put a lot of things into
[4:25] doubt here. Everybody really started to free code it at that point. All
[4:29] that to say, the federal government said again, Ontario, you got to
[4:33] step up, You got to pay your fair share. Flash forward to today
[4:36] and we have now found out that Ontario Premier Ford has said that Ontario will
[4:42] be giving more money to Stillantis. Ford said, I will confirm we're putting
[4:46] more money on the table. This is all about saving jobs and giving people
[4:49] the quality of life they deserve in southwestern Ontario. So good news there on
[4:58] that front. We also heard from Mayor Dilkins and a Windsor Star story saying
[5:02] that the increased financial commitment is a significant and encouraging step, and it instills
[5:06] optimism that the FEDS will now be able to finalize the deal. Jobs and
[5:11] our economic future are at stake. Stilantis is playing coy right now. They
[5:15] didn't want to comment, so they did the comment not comment, which was
[5:18] we're not commenting. Again some windsor city councilors can take note that that is
[5:25] the comment. They did a very good job with the not commenting by just
[5:29] saying we're not commenting. Um. And then lastly we heard from four four
[5:33] four Dave Cassidy. I'm just thrilled. I've always been confident because once the
[5:38] Fed's announced to take it back would have been political suicide. Stilantis invested a
[5:42] lot and then to see it nearly wrecked, I don't like it. So
[5:46] I think that's a pretty good place to leave things right now. I don't
[5:49] like it, and we're heading into a long weekend. It is a long
[5:53] weekend. We're recording right now. It's forty two right now, so this
[5:58] is undoubtedly going to be the conversation. Had around a lot of barbecues and
[6:03] maybe some campfires this week end up and down the four oh one corridor,
[6:08] especially if you live in an auto town or one of the towns that has
[6:11] some feeder plants. Um, huh, what a week. You know.
[6:20] I'm so glad that we held the show until today. U. And if
[6:26] we had done this show on Tuesday or Wednesday or even yesterday, um,
[6:30] we wouldn't have had the full picture and we would have ended up having to
[6:34] talk about it again anyway next week. So I'm really glad that we held
[6:38] the show. The story is not quite over. Um there. You know,
[6:42] there's a lot more positive noises coming from all the parties, but we
[6:46] don't we don't have a deal yet. But I think, um, you
[6:50] know, I think that we can we can say at least that things are
[6:55] going in a positive direction. And it's uh, it's going to be a
[6:58] lot less anxious weekend this weekend then it was last weekend in winds Or,
[7:02] Essex. It's been so interesting to watch the kind of the psychology. I
[7:08] don't if that's the right word of all this stuff. So the announcements all
[7:11] happened under the previous term of counsel. So there was a great big announcements
[7:15] and and and it became an issue, as John you've pointed out on Twitter,
[7:20] it became an issue in the election, and that you know that Chris
[7:24] Holt could never have negotiated a deal like this, and it was only because
[7:28] we had the study hand of Drew Dilkins to negotiate the deal and him personally.
[7:30] It wasn't even even even give credit to Stephen McKenzie or anybody else.
[7:35] It was him alone that got this done. So that became a really big
[7:39] deal and it was a really big part of our municipal election. Then for
[7:43] this news, when this news started coming out last week, I'm sure everyone
[7:46] thought, well, why did they have such a big announcement, It makes
[7:49] such a big deal about something when there wasn't actually ink on the bottom of
[7:53] those pages. What were they? What were we agree to? And looking
[7:57] at it sort of it felt almost like the world was gaslighting us, like
[8:01] there was a big deal. There are pile drivers ruining lines and to come
[8:07] see as we speak and Silences is going to walk away from a free eighty
[8:11] million dollars free piece of service land over what over? The deal wasn't signed
[8:18] and I mysterious that was So that felt a bit like the whole thing was
[8:22] like a giant gaslight all the way along and like the table stakes in that
[8:28] poker game were enormous. It was just so mysterious. And so you know
[8:33] now watching a playout that it turned out there was all about sort of trying
[8:37] to bully the province into putting up some money, I guess, but there
[8:41] are back rooms, there are wait, you know, why why did this
[8:43] turn into this kind of last minute brings bishop mysterious? Let me have some
[8:48] of the thoughts about some of the things as it played out. But that's
[8:50] the first thought was saying, this is how did this happen? This is
[8:54] great, Melinda, Let's let's explore that. Um. Why why did Stilantis
[9:01] um feel that it had was in a position and had the leverage to play
[9:05] this game? Um? Maybe part of the reason is that all three levels
[9:11] of government we were jockeying to get maximum political advantage out of this from from
[9:20] last February until now. I can remember having the conversations in February that you
[9:30] know, well that was the municipal election right there. Um. And and
[9:33] so it turned out to be UM and the provincial one in many as you
[9:39] know, because probably part of the reason that Andrew Dowey got his seat when
[9:43] Sutucumsey had to do with that deal. He was there as a coomsy towntown
[9:48] Yep for sure. And hum and of course Anthony Mancini in Essex as well.
[9:54] I'm sorry Anthony Liardy in Essex. That is a we had a former
[9:58] MPP named Mancini out those those parts different colors though, if I remember correctly.
[10:03] Um, the uh, The point that I want to make about this,
[10:09] though, is that scramble to capture political advantage helped create the leverage that
[10:16] Stilantis had. Now, so you think that they were taking a calculated risk.
[10:20] So Silantis is thinking, what the hell, we don't need a sign
[10:24] We actually maybe don't even need a sign deal because these guys desperate need for
[10:30] this to go public is going to give us so much more future leverage.
[10:33] Right, So, Melinda, you're in business. Sim in business, when
[10:39] you're negotiating for a piece of work, how often do you sit down and
[10:43] tell your counterparty? Man, oh man, I am so glad that that
[10:48] this deal is happening, because you know, now I don't have to I
[10:52] don't have to lose my house. You don't do that, right, right,
[10:56] you don't. You don't do that. And I think that I think
[10:58] that a mistake that was made, UM, and perhaps it was a temptation
[11:03] that couldn't be resisted by all the political actors involved. UM was to try
[11:09] to UM was to try to capture maximum advantage and in doing so not adequately
[11:18] cautioned the public about the nature of the negotiations and where we were. If
[11:22] it's true, and there's a lot of things that have been said by interested
[11:26] parties that we have to I think we have to remember to to place them
[11:31] in the cone of uncertainty because we don't actually know. But if it's true
[11:37] that m last year when this was negotiated, UM, that that any future
[11:45] benefit coming from the Americans would be matched, If it was true that that
[11:50] conversation happened and that that was actually part of the deal, then UM,
[11:56] then it's it's it's kind of malpractice when you don't know what the what the
[12:00] Americans bid is going to be, considering that they have the resources to sweep
[12:03] us away, right, UM. So so it's kind of irresponsible if you
[12:09] look at it that way. And UM, I just think that that's one
[12:15] lens to look at this through that that the the the political desire to gain
[12:22] advantage, electoral advantage in a certain timeframe, in within a few months in
[12:28] the case of the provincial election, meant that maybe there was an inaccurate presentation
[12:33] of the state of the deal to the public. Well, and you know
[12:37] you mentioned negotiation technique and scale. So one of the you know, people
[12:43] talk about negotiations lay people talk about negotiations. I think they think more about
[12:46] like typical sources of power, like that person has more money, or that
[12:50] person has more status, or they have more power in the negotiation. And
[12:54] you know, the federal government to the Americans have the most power and status
[12:58] and money. But power negotiation comes from what negotiators called the best alternative to
[13:03] a negotiated agreement. And so if you don't have a Plan B, you
[13:07] have you may be the richest and most powerful person at the table. You
[13:11] don't have an exit strategy. Stilantis had all kinds of Plan B because they
[13:16] could go you know, they could go to the States, they could they
[13:20] could leave windsor they could They had all kinds of plan to. In fact,
[13:22] one of their Plan b's kind of immersion. We'll talk about the why
[13:24] Brampton became important. But Canada, Canada might have had a Plan B.
[13:30] The Comminatian government had a Plan BE because their political risk was lower than anyone
[13:33] else's. If they lose this plant here, oh well, I mean they've
[13:37] got to deal with pipelines in Alberta, they've got to deal with fisheries in
[13:41] the and Quebec. So does windsor lose a plant, Oh well, the
[13:46] province's Plan B is pretty weak because they need the auto industry. Winds had
[13:50] zero Plan B. We had no Plan B. And so they all the
[13:56] power in this thing is held by Stilantis, and the second most powerful party
[14:00] is the FEDS, not because they have money in status, but because they
[14:03] didn't care about this still as much as anyone and they don't have no seats
[14:07] down here. Well, they have Eric's seat, but if they lose Eric's
[14:09] seat, it's not catastrophic. But if they lose all of you know,
[14:15] another province because they spent eighty billion dollars on auto stuff and nothing on shipping,
[14:20] then that's a bigger problem for them. So there was so Stilantis had
[14:24] all kinds of Plan BE, and just as we were getting ready, I
[14:28] was looking at a story in the Financial Times of London. Silantis is busy
[14:31] actually telling the UK that they need to renegotiate parts of Brexit or they're going
[14:37] to pick up their ev plant and move it to somewhere in Europe. Silantis,
[14:41] our dab hands at this stuff. Well, fair enough. I mean,
[14:46] they've got to realize that the electrification process is requires a whole bunch of
[14:54] new assets to be built and placed around the world. And this is their
[14:58] moment of mac some leverage. Once you plunk down that that plant, well
[15:03] it's hard to move it um and it's painful to move it. So this
[15:07] is their moment, and they are taking you know, they they have pretty
[15:13] sharp elbows, it seems, and they're taking every opportunity. I want to
[15:18] I want to ask you guys what you think about them And it's not a
[15:24] surprise that this happens, but what you think about interested actors casting the issue
[15:31] in moral terms like Flavio Bulbay, meet your commitments, etc. Etc.
[15:37] Right, keep your promises. I find that so interesting and I'm just curious.
[15:41] I want to opine on it, but I'm curious what you guys think.
[15:46] I don't know. I don't like when the like the moral and ethical
[15:50] language starts getting rolled out it gets a little bit too emotional for me,
[15:52] and you lose your substance immediately once you get to that point. I think
[15:56] that was one of the problems that Stilantis said at one point. They one
[16:00] of their comments they said during throughout the week, towards the middle of it,
[16:04] was it's unfair to still Antis and to our employees. What's going on
[16:11] with this uncertainty. It's like unfair you're threatening to pull a plant and now
[16:17] you're switching to a whiny emotional appeal, like we're past fairness and quite frankly,
[16:23] leave the fairness outside of the door when we're talking business right now.
[16:27] It's just it's nonsense. But I mean, every every actor has, you
[16:33] know, their own agenda that they're pushing, and I don't know, I
[16:36] find that it's usually a way that you just masquerade a backhand slap, whereas
[16:41] I would appreciate it a lot more if it was, you know, an
[16:45] open faced slap or a punch. Come out, don't pull the punch and
[16:48] make the attack, and you know, deal with what the outcome of that
[16:52] is going to be. But this mealy mouth nonsense, I don't like it.
[16:56] I feel like the moral language seems to me to be more of a
[17:00] signal of helplessness, like that the people who are using the stick to your
[17:03] commitment, stick to your promises, be an honorable person. That's I'm feeling
[17:08] helpless and I don't know what else. So I don't I don't have any
[17:11] power, I have no ability to to to influence this in any other way.
[17:15] So I'm going to try and go for the moral. You know,
[17:18] it's it's unfair, it's dishonest. But you know, you say, like
[17:22] in business, the issue is not so much um fairness as certainty. And
[17:29] so what what we were trying, what was what was evident in this negotiation
[17:33] was that there was a there was an appearance of certainty that where there wasn't
[17:37] actually certainty. And what they were what they've been jockeying for is to figure
[17:40] out where the point of certainty is. But none of it was about,
[17:42] you know, fairness, that anyone was anyone. The people who are really
[17:45] at the table believed that the others were lying. I mean, we felt
[17:49] gasolate as the public and maybe maybe maybe uniform too. What the language that
[17:55] of interests interests me though, is why we have the mayor of all that
[18:00] you know, of all of the people really involved in this, maybe a
[18:03] bit of silantis throwing insults, like you know, this is amateur hour on
[18:08] the part of the federal negotiators. Well, you stood up there and you
[18:14] took all the credit. You were the guy in the podium, you know,
[18:17] delivering results or leadership delivered or whatever the thing says, and took all
[18:21] this credit for the situation. Did you not know that it was potentially uncertain?
[18:26] You know, I think that's a really good point, and I think,
[18:32] unfortunately for the city, mister Dilkins can't help but use that kind of
[18:37] language. This is a tool that like like, demeaning and denigrating people is
[18:42] a tool that he reaches for often and early, and it is a very
[18:47] unfortunate tendency. And I'm surprised that it seems to be something that the public
[18:52] doesn't mind. You know, you would I would have thought that that would
[18:56] have a more corrosive effect on a politician, but um Delkin seems to be
[19:00] able to get away with it. But do you know, do you think
[19:03] the public remembers that he said I was the one who got the deal.
[19:07] Nobody on council could have done it. I'm the only one. I mean,
[19:11] like, the media is not report it. It's not They don't have
[19:15] the bandwidth to be able to include six more paragraphs to explain that backstory.
[19:19] So I think I just get they should though, like I just operate.
[19:22] I just want to quickly and I know this is a sidebar, but I
[19:26] just want to quickly take a sidebar on this. I've made a fair bit
[19:30] of fun of AM eight hundred on this show over the years, particularly the
[19:33] news poll stuff, because it's funny, but credit where it's due. The
[19:40] Monday morning after the Friday bombshell, AM eight hundred had put together an incredible
[19:45] package with interviews that could not have been easy to set up over a weekend,
[19:51] interviews with all of the responsible parties. And I was really impressed by
[19:57] that. And the reason that I wanted to say that is I think our
[20:03] media should find the resources to take a deep dive. I you know,
[20:08] I recognize that it's a lot, there's a lot less capacity than there was
[20:14] ten years ago, twenty years ago, thirty years ago. This is a
[20:18] story that really matters, and it really matters what happened and what was true.
[20:23] And I know that we have the reporters in this town capable of digging
[20:30] out that information and packaging it so that we can understand it. And I
[20:34] can't think of a story that deserves that kind of treatment more. Yeah,
[20:37] I agree. I look forward to kind of a long form version this,
[20:41] maybe the Narwhall. We'll do a story that went down. They'll need a
[20:45] new reporter to do the interview. I think. But I don't know if
[20:47] it's news that Drew Dilkins puffed himself up and it was just bs like.
[20:52] I don't know if that's actually news. I just I think, and that's
[20:55] my point. I think he can get away with it because because no one
[20:57] believes it a lot. But I don't know. I think I think there's
[21:00] two I mean, there's obviously two different voters. Right, there's someone who
[21:04] knows the story and sees it and goes, screw off, you're bullshitting and
[21:08] you look like an idiot. And then I think there's the voter who doesn't
[21:11] follow that much, who knows name recognition and maybe knows, oh, this
[21:15] investment came because of this candidate or whatever, this politician, and they go,
[21:19] oh, look he's fighting, he's calling the liberals names. Yeah,
[21:25] there's there's um. I think successful politicians have to figure out how to engage
[21:32] with the electorate at a multiple levels. And you can ignore, and you
[21:36] have to engage effectively. I think with the folks who read headlines, the
[21:41] folks who are busy, you know, I think back, and now my
[21:44] kids are old enough that I think about this, like how much time I
[21:47] had for politics when my kids were in diapers? Very little, right,
[21:49] very little? But those people still have a right to vote, and they
[21:53] still should vote, and they still should participate even if your life is busy
[21:57] and your own securing your own future is the top priority. But what I'm
[22:03] saying is that I think that their politicians have to pitch to that that group
[22:10] of people, And in recent decades, I think Conservatives have been the ones
[22:15] who are the best and the first at figuring out how new media can be
[22:18] used to reach folks who fit that profile. But at the provincial and the
[22:23] federal level, every serious political party is careful to have a conversation happening at
[22:33] a more serious level as well, for the folks who are engaged, for
[22:37] the folks who are paying attention, for the folks who are are you know,
[22:41] really deeply interested and are maybe old like me and have the time to
[22:45] think about it and talk about it. That doesn't happen in Windsor, and
[22:49] politicians and Windsor feel no compunction to deliver that. And so the only the
[22:56] only reason that I bring all that up is to say that, you know,
[23:00] I don't think that we ever get that level of engagement from Mayor Dilkins.
[23:06] I don't think that we ever have that level of conversation with Mayor Dilkins
[23:10] because he doesn't have to, and you know, the the Eddie Francis heres
[23:15] are a bit of a fading memory. But I do think that in the
[23:17] Francis times, there was more attention paid to that stuff, to to having
[23:22] those deeper conversations in parallel to sending the message that matters to the people who
[23:29] read the headline in the newspaper box as they walk by or scroll by on
[23:33] their Twitter or Facebook feed. And I do think that's a difference, and
[23:37] I think that that I think that the kind of cynicism you're talking about,
[23:41] Melinda, where we look at we look at the mayor's messaging and we think,
[23:45] like Ken, you seriously expect us to be you know, convinced by
[23:48] this, persuaded by this, and the answer is no, I think.
[23:52] But yeah, I don't think anyone believes that the true Dilcers could have negotiated
[23:56] this deals to let us all by himself. That he was just a bit
[23:59] player. And so maybe his comments in the in the Star that you're talking
[24:04] about it and his insults are just trying to cover his own apps, that
[24:10] he tried to look like he was a bigger player than he was. It
[24:11] turned out that there was nothing he could be on vacation, God on whoever
[24:15] he is, And it didn't actually have any impact on these negotiations right whatsoever,
[24:21] Whether even in Best Wins or Essex was part of it, probably not.
[24:25] We'd already made the deal, we'd spent the money, we'd started the
[24:27] construction, and now what he was looking at was an eighty seven million dollar
[24:32] hole in his budget and a piece of land that couldn't be used because it
[24:36] was going to be a vacated by Atlantis. But let's if we switched gears
[24:40] on the politics and we don't mind to the provincial politics. It was so
[24:44] interesting to me how Brampton sort of kind of becomes involved. So it's a
[24:48] what was Tuesday or Wednesday, when suddenly the Atlantis starts to say, well,
[24:56] you know, we don't actually have to keep our plant at Brampton.
[24:59] It's already we're already thinking about maybe mothballing it. And maybe there was some
[25:03] ev opportunities, but you know, frankly, if you don't let us have
[25:06] our eb stuff down here in Windward, we're going to just vacate the province.
[25:10] And that I think was the That was the moment when it sort of
[25:15] became apparent that it really was the party who was the problem was not the
[25:19] federal government. It was the provincial government, and that the only party who
[25:25] could be leveraged where there was any more leverage to be had was the province,
[25:30] because the province can't lose industrial tax base, in jobs, industrial development
[25:40] out of the GTA. They could maybe sacrifice us if we were the only
[25:44] ones on the table, but no way were they going to be able to
[25:47] say goodbye to Burnamp then, And that then suddenly raised the stakes for the
[25:51] problems, and that became it started to become clear to me that there are
[25:55] a lot of people who just think just that rudo, you know, it
[25:57] controls the weather, but it was never Justin Trudou's problem. It was the
[26:03] Justin Turero's problem here, and Christiepherns was trying to make sure that the problem's
[26:08] got the message. So what I think is really interesting, just to build
[26:15] on that, is there was a piece in the Guardian newspaper out of the
[26:21] UK and I read that piece. It was shared in the Windsor subreddit.
[26:26] I'm not sure if you shared it on your social media, John, but
[26:29] it's worth taking a look at it, and it's easy to find if you
[26:30] look in the Windsor Ontario subreddit. It was posted a day or two ago,
[26:34] and the narrative in that piece was so different than what we've heard locally.
[26:42] First it was far colder, far more bloodless, far more just the
[26:45] facts, and it was very careful to lay out a timeline very quickly,
[26:52] three short paragraphs, a timeline of the negotiation, the Inflation Reduction Act and
[27:02] the and the threat from Stilantis, which this was, you know, a
[27:07] threat, and they laid out that timeline. And it's so interesting to me
[27:11] because I think that unless you look at it in that way, and unless
[27:15] you see that timeline laid out for you, it's hard it's it's a lot
[27:21] easier, let's say, to blame the federal government. And that takes me
[27:23] to where I want to go with this, which is, it's been fascinating
[27:27] to watch the different parties line up in this past week. And I think
[27:33] that, you know, everybody is entitled to ally themselves with whoever they think
[27:38] will serve their best advantage. And but I think it's interesting and important to
[27:44] note what I The perception that I got over the last few days is that
[27:51] at some point M. Stilantis started dictating the talking points that were deployed by
[27:57] Mayor Dilkins and uniform, and you could see there was message consistency between Stilantis
[28:06] Uniform and Dilkins Um, and there were even specific turns of phrase that were
[28:11] repeated between the comments of different people representing different you know, different entities,
[28:18] different pieces of interest. And I thought that was so fascinating, Um,
[28:22] you know, and uh to the point where you started to see the talking
[28:30] point deployed about the long history of Stilantis or Chrysler of the Windsor assembly plant
[28:37] in Windsor Um, and you started to see that deployed by industry people as
[28:41] well as by Stilantis as well as by you know, some of those those
[28:47] political actors that I mentioned and m and that was in you know, contrasting
[28:52] and basically pitting Stilantis against VW and it worked. I saw some pretty unhinge
[29:00] things on social media, people saying things about Volkswagen UM. So, so
[29:06] firstly, I wanted to note that I think that UM, I think that
[29:10] there were some some local, local actors who decided to line up with stillantists
[29:15] rather than lining up with the Feds or the province UM specifically. And uh,
[29:21] and that that there it appears to me, of course, like nobody
[29:23] knows what actually happens. Maybe maybe these folks all just had extremely similar thoughts
[29:30] at the exact same time and this is just a miracle. That's possible too.
[29:34] Um. We don't know what happened behind closed doors, but I think
[29:37] it's really interesting and I think people should consider that and take note of it
[29:42] when when you're evaluating messaging from those folks in the future. But but the
[29:48] other thing is the U stillantists talking about one hundred year history of windsor assembly.
[29:55] UM. That is to me at least circumstantial evidence that there were some
[30:03] heavy conversations happening between Stilantis uniform and quite possibly the mayor's office about how to
[30:10] handle this and how to communicate it. Because when the threat to to suspend
[30:17] Canadian operations for um uh Stillantis, when that threat was made, they were
[30:22] careful not to not to include Windsor Assembly and that threat. Now why why
[30:30] Because because I think Stillantis was advised, you don't want to lose the people
[30:37] of Windsor. You've got the people of Windsor on your side right now.
[30:40] They want this investment. If you threatened Windsor Assembly, they won't forget it.
[30:45] And uh and that that when when I saw that language being deployed,
[30:48] that was when I really thought, who's talking to who here? That's a
[30:52] really interesting point. It made me think of something else, which is that
[30:56] we so there's there's all this local politics and then then maybe the provincial federal,
[31:02] but between Staalantis and BW, there's a global race on to who's going
[31:07] to be the hit, who's going to be out front in terms of the
[31:11] EV supply chain and the electric vehicles. And so the story that I reference
[31:17] before from the Financial Times includes the you know BMW is there and land Rover
[31:22] there and they're all like in this big fight with who's going to get the
[31:26] UK to agree to the British content rules so that they can have plants in
[31:32] the UK. If you want to have plants in the UK, then you
[31:33] have to basically get out of you know, you have to go back and
[31:37] join the EU and so the so these guys, So we may be in
[31:41] this playing field well where it's like Ospruss Brampton as to who's going to get
[31:45] the plant, but this actual, same, very same negotiation is happening at
[31:49] a global scale. Well, and you know, just going back to that
[31:52] UK issue, it makes sense perfectly for them to have played such hardball that
[31:56] they're playing right now there because you know, the import, the duties,
[32:00] with just the amount of logistics involved in exporting, it's just frigging nuts.
[32:05] It's the same reason why Ford ended up opening up Henry Ford Wagon Works here
[32:09] because it was easier to ship the car across and put the wheels on it
[32:12] here to sell through the empire. Business is going to find the easiest route.
[32:15] It's like water flowing, right. But I want to bring it back
[32:20] just to the politics of it all. But regarding what you were talking about
[32:23] like the race that we're seeing. There was a really good piece that was
[32:28] in an automotive News Canada and it came out, I believe it no,
[32:32] just earlier in March, and it said that everything that has been invested up
[32:37] to this point has been seventeen billion dollars, and Vic Fidelli, the finance
[32:42] Minister for Ontario, said, and there's another seventeen billion dollars coming in the
[32:45] next two years, which lines up with something that's been just itching away at
[32:52] me since we had this first announcement, which was every time there was an
[32:57] announcement, we were told, oh, but wait, there's more, and
[33:00] then that one would happen, but wait, there's more, and then finally
[33:01] we heard from Fideli we're like barely even halfway done. And that was like
[33:07] right around the before the Ontario election point, which then just made me start
[33:14] thinking, huh, have these been divided strategically? Are they being rolled out
[33:20] strategically? Is it just a negotiations happened one by one and they're all just
[33:24] you know, falling out the way that they are, or was there you
[33:27] know, a conscious effort and you know political agreement between the FEDS and the
[33:30] province. Hey, let's announce someones that are the most politically expedient for you
[33:36] guys provincially, so you can run up to the election with that. We
[33:39] know there's a federal election that's going to be coming up pretty soon too.
[33:43] Let's back end the ones that are going to help us out the most there.
[33:46] And you know, for the Feds though, it's just really the big
[33:49] whole package. Just look at everything that's already been invested. So I don't
[33:52] know, just going back to how this was all rolled out, why was
[33:54] everyone standing up last July or whatever in at the big facility where it was
[34:00] announced, shaking hands Prime Minister Premier Ford Stilantis, everyone's so happy to then
[34:08] find out just a couple of days ago, well, the FEDS gave they
[34:12] gave us, since Stilantis, five pieces of paper confirming that they'd matched the
[34:19] IRA on the US five different piece of We ever see any of those five
[34:22] pieces of paper? Isn't that interesting? But they said interesting, They said
[34:25] five, and then we had that five number confirmed from someone else as well.
[34:30] But then Stilantis did come out and say, but we've never had assigned
[34:34] agreement from the federal government, which brings it back to the whole point that
[34:37] we had eight before. If I'm announcing, I remember back in higher limits
[34:42] days. If I'm announcing an event, yeah, and I don't have the
[34:45] performer's signature on a contract, I am not announcing the event. And even
[34:50] when I did announce an event with a performer's signature, Stormy Daniels, it
[34:54] got canceled and I felt so embarrassed having to go and announce to that.
[35:00] And we were just a small weed lounge, not a federal government or provincial
[35:04] government. But I guess you know, if you look at it through the
[35:07] lens that I'm trying to present here, electoral politics are sometimes more important than
[35:10] right logic. So the flip side is at the front of the show.
[35:15] I made took some time to make a case that maybe politicians were overpromising,
[35:21] maybe they were celebrating a deal too early the way that you're talking about it.
[35:25] But try this on for size. What if there was a deal,
[35:31] all parties had firmed everything up, everything was cleaned up, and it was
[35:37] stillantis who came back and said, you know, this deal isn't good enough.
[35:43] This this deal doesn't work for us. Because what they didn't say,
[35:46] was what other signatures weren't on that deal. Yeah, that's a good point.
[35:52] There's a good point. But what and the way the way you sort
[35:54] of spooled out that your argument there, John also and I'm going to take
[35:59] it that have shot at our MP Nazi. He's you know, he had
[36:04] to come into the chat late in the day and do his usual unhelpful thing
[36:07] and say, wow, this is all because if aner government don't have an
[36:09] auto strategy, and he said that many times before, and we have an
[36:14] auto strategy and it's called the you know, US Mexico Canada Trade Agreement,
[36:20] and but this ev stuff. It just illustrates again how little he actually understands
[36:28] the relationships of all these things. This because we have the global fight going
[36:31] on about where the plants are going to be, how they're going to how
[36:35] these supply chains are going to be done. This is a completely different because
[36:38] like it's like we're rebuilding the auto sector from the ground now, but here
[36:43] even in Canada. Part of our advantage is where we are relative to the
[36:46] United States, but it's also relative where to the critical minerals and the opportunity
[36:52] of Canada to actually provide a sort of dare I say these whereas ethical critical
[36:57] medicals minerals compared to other parts of the world where slavery and people are dying
[37:01] to produce these minerals. So it's not about an auto strategy that's some kind
[37:07] of a deal between one union and a plant, which is how Brian Massey
[37:09] appears to think of it. And when I listen to him talk about it's
[37:14] talking about how an attire nation with respect to the use of resources, relationships
[37:19] to first nations, the location of where facilities are, and the way we
[37:22] build, the transportation of a structure to move that stuff around. That's the
[37:25] auto strategy. But it's not one little tiny auto strategy, Brian. It's
[37:30] way bigger. And this is why you're never going to be the government.
[37:35] So I want to pick up on that and connect something that you guys,
[37:37] that each of you talked about. But first I'll just to directly comment on
[37:43] what you said. Massey has limited tools available to him. He doesn't have
[37:47] the power of government, right, he doesn't have certain things, and that
[37:53] tool of talking about an auto strategy and national auto strate that's been pretty key
[38:00] for him. It's been very important for him. So I wasn't surprised,
[38:05] but I want to I want to just connect what John was saying about the
[38:09] possible political stitch up. We're going to have these announcements before the provincial election,
[38:15] and we're going to have these other announcements before the federal election, and
[38:19] everybody is going to eat. When you think about how that works locally,
[38:28] what are we really talking about. We're really talking about the federal Liberals and
[38:32] the provincial Conservatives carving up Winds or Essex and leaving the NDP out. And
[38:42] I think that that's an interesting angle to think about, especially when you consider
[38:49] how closely aligned Uniform and the Ford government were in these negotiations. It's really
[38:54] interesting to think about that. Yeah, that's a really good point, I
[38:59] wonder. I mean, there's no doubt that this story helped win seats for
[39:06] them down here. And conversely, there's no doubt that if this story went
[39:13] the other way now and it was all lost, it wouldn't just jeopardize seats
[39:16] down here, it would ripple all the way up the four oh one throughout
[39:20] you know, the sister sectors that we have here in the auto sector.
[39:23] Um, while you were just you know, you can you can chirp on
[39:27] who you want Weland. I want to do a flip. I want to
[39:30] give a little kudos out to the Windsor Star because three days ago when they
[39:36] put out there one of their stories that was looking back on when Chrysler shuddered,
[39:43] Damler, Chrysler shuttered their plant that was opened up and then it wasn't
[39:46] opened up. It was never used. It was mothballed. Um. There
[39:51] was a really snarky quote which there m segment in it in a paragraph,
[39:57] Melinda, you alluded to it. Quins Or Star. An emailed statement on
[40:00] Monday, a vacationing Dilkins took a more collaborative approach while expressing fear at the
[40:06] consequence of failure. Let's look at the timeline. So it's Friday, last
[40:09] week, and this bombshell drops Saturday, Sunday, Monday, you read your
[40:20] email, the email statement comes out presumably I don't know. Maybe someone got
[40:23] to the office on Monday and maybe their phone was off all weekend and had
[40:29] no idea any of this was happening at all. Drew Dilkins chose not to
[40:35] come home. He made a conscious effort, conscious choice. And this isn't
[40:39] like a situation like Jordan, where you know, quarantine happened and the world
[40:44] were shutting down. This was I'm the mayor of the city. I just
[40:46] found it on Friday. I'm on vacation. I could tell the wife and
[40:52] kids see it. I gotta go. This is the worst thing that could
[40:58] happen to our city member. When I got elected, I had that whole
[41:00] speech. I had to tear it up, talking about how we have to
[41:04] diversify because of just the existential fear of what could have happened. But you
[41:08] decide as mayor. I'll just send it an emailed statement. It's fine,
[41:12] you don't come back, and now we have the optics and you know,
[41:15] I don't know. Maybe it's not fair. Maybe it's not fair because what
[41:17] can the mayor do in this situation. They can make phone calls, But
[41:21] the point is the mayor made a choice to say, there's nothing I can
[41:24] do in my office. What do you expect me to be doing in this
[41:28] situation. I can stay on vacation. To me is so maybe interesting,
[41:34] but maybe, But I don't think that the man who put on a windbreaker
[41:42] and made sure that there were many opportunities to photograph him and said Windbreaker,
[41:47] looking very leaderly at the flood Command Center or whatever the hell it was called
[41:53] back in twenty eighteen. I find it hard to believe that Mayor Dilkins would
[41:58] resist, would be to resist the temptation to rush back. And maybe he
[42:06] has a negotiations going bad Windbreaker that he could have put on, but he
[42:10] didn't. He didn't, And I wonder, I wonder, And again,
[42:17] I don't know what's in people's hearts, and I don't know what people are
[42:21] really thinking. And so when I speculate like this, you just gotta take
[42:25] it for what it's worth and think about it in those terms. But but
[42:29] what if he was scared? Like what if he thought this thing might go
[42:34] bad and it would be better if he stayed away. I don't want a
[42:37] microphone in front of me. I don't want a camera in front of me.
[42:39] I'm not able to respond to this situation. I mean, I'm just
[42:44] saying, what if I could see that? Because like, listen, where
[42:46] is he right now? Like he was gone up till at least on Monday.
[42:51] We know he was on vacation. So now Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
[42:53] Friday, where we're at right now hasn't been a photo of him.
[42:58] We don't know if he's back in the city. We know that it's a
[43:00] long weekend. It's not crazy to think that he took a Friday till Monday.
[43:05] Yep. And if that is the case, then that really adds a
[43:07] lot more to what you're saying that it went from Friday, Saturday, Sunday,
[43:10] Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and we found out today Friday
[43:15] the situation has been resolved and now he'll be back, or he talked about
[43:21] coordinated messages before. We know, he probably didn't have that much to do
[43:24] with the actual negotiations of the deal, especially once the municipal money was already
[43:29] spent. There was nothing more to It's not like the municipality was going to
[43:31] come up with a billion dollars. He knew, as well as everyone else
[43:36] involved in a works of the thing. The problem wasn't Defends, it was
[43:39] the province and he couldn't be the guy putting the boots to his pal Forward,
[43:45] so stays away. He lets Christia Freeland put the boots to Forward and
[43:52] then he can't an he maybe partners up with Statlantis and Uniform is saying this
[43:58] is really important to our community. We really really really need this. You
[44:00] know, you've been here over untied years. He does all that part,
[44:04] but he's never in any position where someone's putting a mic in his face and
[44:07] saying, isn't it your pal, Doug. That's the problem here. I
[44:10] mean, I think both of you bring up equally valid points which we would
[44:15] answer the question. I just I still find it just so interesting that I
[44:21] guess I did. Just it adds more credence to it because he could have
[44:23] come here and stage managed this with a photo from the Mayor's office sitting on
[44:29] the phone and you know, looking stern at some pieces of paper, and
[44:32] he probably could have gotten premier Ford and to put out a statement or a
[44:37] nice positive quote say me and the mayor working together and or blah blah blah.
[44:40] I'm given a lot more credit to what you're saying, Doug, like,
[44:44] didn't know no offense to you at all, Milinda. But I'm putting
[44:45] a bit more weight to it because I just I don't I can't see why
[44:49] he would resist, and it with so many days having elapsed. But in
[44:53] that vain I want to go back to chirp and boat the MP or MP
[44:58] is that this was also a potential moment for Brian Massey to do something like
[45:01] that, to be seen sitting down with you know, he's supposed to have
[45:06] the relationships around the autosector, right, So he's sitting down with Dave Cassidy
[45:10] in the mayor in a meeting and demonstrating you know that, and saying to
[45:15] the fans, you've got a resource down here, You've got me down here.
[45:17] I can help. And even though everyone knows they're not ever going to
[45:22] ask him to help, he looks like he's trying to be like, I'm
[45:25] here to help save my city, not here to stand by the sidelines and
[45:30] you know, piss into the campfire. Yeah, they're like, I think
[45:32] you you're right that there were possibly more effective interventions. But but if you're
[45:42] if you are Brian Massey, then your interests aligned with the uniform stillantis.
[45:49] It doesn't matter how much money they fed spend. They could spend the entire
[45:54] federal budget bringing Stilantis to Windsor and that would be good for Brian Massey and
[46:00] he would be happy with that. Um so just does never. He just
[46:04] never takes the opportunity to be statesman. Like, please, I don't think
[46:08] that's like I just don't think that's the brand though. I don't think that's
[46:13] the brand until your point. Um, you know, I think that for
[46:16] somebody who has been in office for my god how many years now twenty years,
[46:22] um, For someone who's been office in tw for twenty years to be
[46:27] able to still be the rebel, to be the the activist, like,
[46:34] that's the that's a brand and it's powerful brand. If you're never if you're
[46:37] never going to be a minister, and Brian Massey's never going to be a
[46:42] minister, then why do you need to pivot and cut a different brand,
[46:45] like cut a different figure. He's like that's perfect for what he is and
[46:50] what he's doing politically in Windsor And why do the work? Well, there
[46:54] is that. I don't mean to be rude, but like I mean,
[46:58] it's just like there's it's not going to gain you a vote, like there
[47:01] just might that demonstrate that you're actually like a decent human being, perhaps that
[47:07] you're actually trying to get in the fight and help. I'll be charitable.
[47:10] I'll be charitable here, um and and say you know when you're when you're
[47:17] thinking about because because everybody was in a room, right and when you're thinking
[47:22] about who's going to carry the message and how are they going to carry the
[47:24] message, perhaps it was felt that Dave Cassidy would be a more effective vehicle
[47:30] for that message than Brian Massey. Um. And and if if mister Massey
[47:36] and mister Cassidy wouldn't end up singing the same exact song, then you might
[47:39] as well, um, just hand the music over to the person who can
[47:43] be most effective and who's singing such beautiful duets with Doug Ford. Well,
[47:50] you know, it's it's it's a really it's been interest in watching this one.
[47:53] Um. At the end of day, it's good for us, um.
[47:57] And you know, quite frankly for on Terry, I mean for us,
[48:00] good show fodder. Lots lots happened for us here in Windsor. It's
[48:05] a pretty good thing. I really don't I don't care if the rest of
[48:07] Ontario has to pay for us to get you know, for sure good face,
[48:10] yeah, bully for us. And that's why I didn't care if the
[48:13] Fed's picked it up either. I go, well, you know what,
[48:15] Alberta, give us some more money, give us some more that oil money.
[48:17] Thank you. Let it flow if you just want to let it flow
[48:21] like a pipeline, if you will just give us some money. But you
[48:24] know, so it's happening. It looks like I had andrewd Awie on an
[48:28] AMA hundred today, had a good conversation with him. So it looks like
[48:30] this is all put to bed now and let's hope that we can, you
[48:37] know, not have to deal with these big shakes. But moving forward,
[48:40] if there's seventeen billion dollars of investment more that's coming, how much more money
[48:45] is that going to cost us to get that seventeen billion? Because you've got
[48:50] to think that the negotiators for these companies, they're looking at this just smiling
[48:53] and frothing at the mouse. Right now, isn't it the ultimate TAKEO message
[48:58] of all of this right between this story, the story of the Atlantists hear,
[49:01] the story we're talking about it in the UK and Europe, is that,
[49:06] you know, whatever anybody out there don you're not here tonight, thinks
[49:08] about capitalism, how capitalists and entrepreneurs are just so great at making things out
[49:13] of nothing. You know what they are great at is getting money out of
[49:16] government. And the better you are getting money out of government, the more
[49:20] successful you will be in stilantists. They appeared to be world class at getting
[49:23] money out of government. I think Don would just say that that's like the
[49:27] best type of business that there is. It's the goal is to get the
[49:30] money, the goal is to make profit, whatever which way. Yeah,
[49:32] yeah, okay, So so we can't we can't. We can't leave the
[49:37] show without that. Thank you so much for bringing that up, Melinda.
[49:42] What was so fascinating to me was watching so many people I would never have
[49:46] expected it from start singing from the William F. Buckley and Rand like the
[49:52] Strong book. Right, it is good and right that capitalists destroy everything before
[49:59] them in the pursuit of profit. What the fuck? No, it isn't,
[50:02] No, it isn't anyway. I find that super amusing. It's been
[50:08] an interesting week for sure, folks. This is May nineteenth, Rose City
[50:15] Politics. That'll do it for us. Tonight regular panel included Melinda Munroe,
[50:20] Doug Startry, and myself John lid Key, and we were able to broadcast
[50:24] live on tape thanks to the kind support of Luna six to five building Better
[50:29] Communities. We'll be back next week.

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