# We're Failures Please Help Us

An episode of [Rose City Politics](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1247337855), 10 Dec 2023, 55 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/57967176/we_re_failures_please_help_us.mp3

Don, Jon, Frazier and Doug take a look at the politics of the federal government's policy changes around international students, examine the Globe and Mail's new pop-up Windsor bureau and (what year is it?) talk about Anne Jarvis' latest column in the Windsor Star. Rose City Politics is brought to you with the kind support of LiUNA Local 625: Building Better Communities. Support the show at Patreon.com/RosecityPolitics. Read our stuff in Biz X Magazine or online at BizXMagazine.com and RoseCityPolitics.ca.

## Transcript

[0:22] Hello, everyone, Welcome to Rose City Politics. It is December the tenth.
[0:26] Our regular panel includes Doug Star, Tory Frasier Fathers, and Don Maryfield
[0:32] Junior, as well as courts myself John Lydkey. You can support us at
[0:35] patreon dot com slash Roads and Politics. We are in phizech magazine. Check
[0:40] that one out in January. We're online and banned from some places. You
[0:44] can keep sending up your dms guessing where those places are because we love to
[0:48] get in from you guys. Where you think we would be banned and don't
[0:53] belong quite frankly, so let us know that. Andros and Politics they have
[0:56] the broadcast live on tape thanks to the kind support of UNI six to building
[1:00] a better community. How are we all doing that? Don? I'm doing
[1:06] all right a little bit of technical problems, but happy Hanukah to you until
[1:10] all the other people who celebrate that. Listeners, Thank you. Were you
[1:15] showing houses after day? Uh? Yeah? You want to hear a funny
[1:18] story really quick? So do you guys remember the movie Poltergeist? Yes?
[1:23] Okay, you remember remember that scene where all the flies coming out of the
[1:26] wall. Oh no, Well I went into this house and opened a door,
[1:32] and I swear to god it was poltergeist. About thirty flies flew out
[1:36] of this room and then we just had to leave. Yeah, that's probably
[1:41] a good idea. Yeah, they're not They're not all. It's not all
[1:44] selling sunset out there, Yeah don it. I think it really depends on
[1:48] where the flies were originating from. Is sort of determines what level of heck
[1:53] this story is. It was the bathroom, and I don't know what was
[1:56] going on in that tub before I got there. But if anyone's missing a
[1:59] pet or an uncle, I like, nowhere terrifying stuff. Thanks for sharing
[2:05] that story about some of our local real estate. There you go. That's
[2:09] that's the state of things down. That's the state of things. Yes,
[2:13] I'll be at a government meeting one day explaining all this. We Frasier.
[2:17] How you doing good? Good? You know? Joining this lovely Sunday?
[2:23] Yeah, it is a really a nice one. Doug, how aout?
[2:25] You doing fine? We're going around the horn checking on everybody's day. This
[2:30] is great. Okay. I love this segment. I literally wanted to get
[2:35] to my point where I'm just like, hey, I've been eating some LATAs
[2:37] here while everyone's been talking. It's right. See, it's asking me how
[2:40] I am, so I'll ask you how you are so you can mention your
[2:44] goddamn lots. It was that. It was also like the eating a little
[2:46] bit while you guys were talking necessary stuff. We've got a really big show,
[2:51] and I can't wait to get to some of these topics. When you
[2:53] guys again start to talking, I'll get back to my lot. Because first,
[2:58] one of the biggest stories that we've seen over the past week is you
[3:01] know, the country Canada doubling the cost of living requirement for international students.
[3:07] That's going to be coming into place January first, the next year. Now,
[3:10] that's current systems set in place for twenty years when it requires ten thousand
[3:14] dollars, say, for tuition and cost of living to get the study permit
[3:17] from applicants. The Ministry of Housing says that's not kept up with the cost
[3:21] of living when newly arriving students just don't have enough money. For twenty twenty
[3:24] four, a single applicant will need twenty grand roughly, which represents seventy five
[3:30] percent of the low income cut off and first year tuition and travel costs as
[3:35] well. And these financial requirements will be adjusted annually when stats Can updates LECO,
[3:40] which then represents the minimum income necessary to ensure individuals do not have to
[3:46] spend a greater than average portion of income on the necessities. And just quickly,
[3:52] there is a waiver on the twenty hour per week off campus work limit
[3:57] for current international students that's being extended their April thirtieth, and the government is
[4:01] also considering standing off campus work hours for international students to thirty hours per week
[4:09] while platforms in let's just pose it right there, take a quick look at
[4:13] what this all means, and then we can look at sort of some of
[4:15] the local reaction that we see. Frazier, do you want to come in
[4:17] first on this one. Yeah, Well, we've certainly been hearing rumors that
[4:23] like some sort of additional you know, controls on international students coming into Canada.
[4:30] We're coming down the pipeline, and I think it's certainly an interesting sort
[4:33] of model. They doubled the amount, and so you know the fact that
[4:38] you have to bring you know, the fact that they're pegging to Loco is
[4:41] an interesting sort of thing as well, because Loco actually is the highest you
[4:46] know, or lowest total value from a low income perspective of all the low
[4:50] income measures in Canada, which we have three. You know, we have
[4:53] the low income cut off, we have the Low Income measure, and the
[4:56] market basket. So LOCO for individuals is actually the lowest threshold the pass.
[5:00] So despite an international student needing you know, seventy five percent of whatever LEKO
[5:04] is about twenty thousand dollars, they would still then fall under whatever the market
[5:10] basket number is for most communities and the low income measure for most communities.
[5:13] So you know, it's not like they're going to come in here and live
[5:17] the lap of luxury if they're just clearing that bar, that threshold bar there
[5:21] to meet their visa requirements. So yeah, that was the sort of the
[5:27] first thing that jumped out at me. Obviously, this is going to cause
[5:30] a lot of shuffle within the post secondary institution space about who Ken and I
[5:35] pulled some data about some of those numbers that we can talk about in a
[5:41] minute, I guess, so, yeah, like, I think it's but
[5:44] it's certainly something that we knew was probably in the works, and now it's
[5:46] sort of here, and now it'll be a question of how does it actually
[5:49] impact when it hits the ground. January first, Well, it's a big
[5:54] acknowledgement that you know, things have been wrong, right, I mean,
[5:58] it's a huge walk back on a polly. That's the by no means going
[6:01] to be a silver bullet. Doug, You've got any thoughts on this one?
[6:05] One? I enjoy that. I think after a few centuries we will
[6:12] eventually have gotten around to indexing everything, every monetary outlay and expenditure of the
[6:18] government to inflation. I don't understand why, like we seem to stumble along
[6:24] and discover this or that thing. Oh my god, it's been ten years
[6:28] and the numbers don't make sense anymore. It's kind of an odd thing to
[6:30] me that that's not thought of at the outset. Besides that, I think
[6:38] it's interesting because I think this this particular choice, it impacts the situation on
[6:45] the ground in two ways. It's going to increase their restriction, like it's
[6:47] going to increase the the the level of income and therefore more further restrict who
[6:55] can come to Canada to study. But I think it also is important that
[7:00] the way that this was done was a recognition that the material conditions of students
[7:04] when they arrive in Canada is poor, and that that is leading to some
[7:10] bad and I think possibly some desperate outcomes. You know that ten thousand dollars
[7:15] number. I think what we saw, at least based on sort of the
[7:18] things that I'm hearing, is that folks were coming to Canada with, you
[7:24] know, with everything that they could possibly scrape together, and it wasn't enough
[7:29] money for them to do the things they needed to do to study here.
[7:31] And that leads to some pretty terrible situations when you're you know, an ocean
[7:36] away from your support network. So I think it's a I think it's a
[7:42] sign that that there was some careen thought put into the reaction to the obvious
[7:47] mess that this policy has created. Yeah, you know, it touches on
[7:51] that equity issue as well. By raising the threshold, you're going to be
[7:56] limiting it to only you know, people with hiringcomes that can get him.
[7:59] But as you are hitting on there done, I mean, we want to
[8:01] be bringing people in too, quite frankly living you know some of the stories
[8:05] that we've seen down here of you know, quite frankly Squalor. Remember that
[8:07] one story a couple of years back in the West End with the moldy basement
[8:11] and the student and you know they're countless in those stories. And we're not,
[8:18] of course to be only seen in the country dealing with don I'll bring
[8:22] you in. Yeah, I guess I'm looking at this from a little bit
[8:26] of a different perspective. I mean, the Liberal government has getting a lot
[8:31] of pushback right now in the housing crisis, housing affordability and all that.
[8:35] You know, we've all heard the stories. A big part of the housing
[8:39] issue for years now has been the number of form students coming in. And
[8:45] what happens is in university towns like our own, is a lot of investors
[8:48] will buy the low, low income, lower priced and properties and turned them
[8:52] into income properties, investment properties for students. So I think, you know,
[8:58] the conspiracy theory, and Done thinks that the Liberal government raised a lot
[9:03] of the financial requirements thinking maybe hoping that this will negate not a large partient
[9:11] portion, but a certain number of students, so we'll get fewer students,
[9:15] which may help alleviate the housing crisis a little bit by loosening things up on
[9:20] the lower end. So I think this is it wouldn't be politically, you
[9:24] know, advantageous for the Liberals to say, Okay, we're gonna cut immigration,
[9:28] but this is a way to kind of do a work around to cut
[9:30] that immigration that is, you know, obviously a big factor in our housing
[9:33] problems. Yeah, Don, I just want to pick up on that because
[9:37] I think, you know, you make an important point here and I want
[9:41] to get to that. So so folks, and Don, I think will
[9:46] want credit for you know, being the person who was poo pooed for saying
[9:50] this. I know he's repeated that a few I started at all. I'm
[9:52] off I started it. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, but student,
[9:54] you know, the pressure of international students has been something that that housing ad
[10:00] kits have been raising increasingly for you know, my mind. I want to
[10:03] say, a couple of years now that this has been policy has been questioned,
[10:09] and I think the challenge for the Liberals is number one. I think
[10:13] they really believed in the policy at the outset. I think that, you
[10:18] know, this is a very congenial policy for Liberals. There's there is a
[10:22] party sort of ethic or a tradition towards welcoming newcomers that I think that party
[10:30] enjoys, and it enjoys the electoral reputation electoral reputation of welcoming newcomers. And
[10:35] I also think that there are economic reasons. If you step way back and
[10:39] you're one of those people who looks at the world through charts and graphs,
[10:43] you know there's an argument, there's an argument to be made that increasing Canada's
[10:46] population was the solution to a lot of problems we were facing ten years ago
[10:52] and a lot of the problems that we maybe thought would be developing for Canadians
[10:56] in the years to come, including now, you know, you've been alive
[11:00] since the nineteen nineties, you have heard a lot of talk about demographic pressure
[11:05] and the demographic cliff and Canadians won't afford, be able to afford to retire,
[11:09] et cetera, et cetera. So I think that this has a lot
[11:13] of antecedents. And the reason that I bring up all that history is to
[11:16] say this government was super sluggish in changing course, and I think that there's
[11:24] I think that there's a lot of reasons for that inertia. But I wanted
[11:28] to bring that to the table and just ask the panel and get everybody's opinions
[11:31] on that, like, what do you think the right choice for the government
[11:33] in terms of communication on this and in terms of making the policy change,
[11:37] Like, is it just they're just screwed because they did it a year and
[11:41] a half too late. Is this something that you think that they can like,
[11:46] is this something that can be turned into a political win for the government
[11:50] guys, I'd say no, there's probably no clear win. There's maybe a
[11:56] break even point where it's like, okay, you know, but I think
[12:01] I think the challenges that you know, the number didn't to get updated for
[12:05] a decade, right, And part of the problem is also and you know,
[12:07] the provincial government here in Ontario released their Blue Ribbon Commission on post secondary
[12:11] institution funding, you know, a couple of weeks ago, and you know,
[12:16] Ontario post secondary institutions are some of the lowest core funded institutions in Canada.
[12:20] And so that's both colleges and universities. And the challenge with that is
[12:24] they had to make up the money somewhere else and you know, digging.
[12:28] And so this is where it gets complicated, right, because it's like,
[12:31] this is an immigration change was a federal thing, but it's being driven by
[12:35] student permits, which is a provincial jurisdiction, and it lands in a housing
[12:39] space, which is you know, all three of the you know, you're
[12:41] suddenly bringing a municipal as well, right, and if you're trying to unwind
[12:46] a housing crisis, you know, you're trying to sort of you're pulling out
[12:50] a string that's tied through several knots. And so the unintended consequences of this
[12:56] I think could be big. And I think, you know, and I
[12:58] don't know if anyone else wants to jump in on Doug's comment, but I
[13:01] have something to add off of that which can actually put some local contact data
[13:05] to that. Yeah, I guess, I guess for me just to jump
[13:11] in real quick, I'll give my two cents and get back to Fraser with
[13:13] the smart stuff. Is uh. I think that, you know, I
[13:16] think this ship sailed unfortunately. I think this is damage control. And you
[13:20] know, I'm of the same age group as Doug, so yes, I
[13:24] was alive during the nineties. I was probably middle aged during the nineties.
[13:26] But yeah, demographics was always going to be a problem. We were going
[13:31] to be lacking workers to fill positions in Canada and which obviously would affect our
[13:35] economy. So the obvious solution to that was immigration. The problem is you
[13:39] can't You can't do one thing without factoring us all the consequences. And I
[13:43] don't think the consequences were looked at. And again we go back to housing.
[13:46] If you're going to bring in half a million people a year or whatever
[13:48] the numbers have been, you know, pro rated over the last decade,
[13:52] and you have no plan or no thought, or didn't even consider where they're
[13:56] actually going to live. You know, this is the end game. Consequence
[14:01] is what we're dealing with now. And now they're just trying to scramble to
[14:05] I think, you know, put lipstick on a pig, because this,
[14:09] like I said, this is this is too late. It's happened. Now
[14:11] they're trying to trying to figure out how to make this politically look not as
[14:16] bad for them, and I think it's just going to be an easy shot
[14:18] for both the NDPS and the Conservatives just to beat them over the head until
[14:22] the next election comes, because there I don't think there's really a way out
[14:26] of this. It was just a mistake. There was poor planning, and
[14:30] now they're going to have to pay for it. Yeah, we'll go ahead,
[14:33] John. I was just to say, I don't think there's gonna be
[14:37] many wins for this government until they're probably on the way out. They could
[14:41] maybe streak them out of minority, but this is certainly not going to be
[14:43] a win for them because there is no win on the housing file, because
[14:48] you're not going to get enough houses built quick enough for people to get over
[14:52] the sentiment. He was elected in fifteen and you know, this is the
[14:56] fully effort. Where are you now? Are things better now seven eight years
[15:00] later than they were then? No? Things are arguably a lot friggin' wars.
[15:03] People can't but forward houses. And if I was a Trudeau voter who
[15:07] was eighteen nineteen twenty twenty one, I'm curious right now. But I mean,
[15:13] this is also such a perfect storm for housing, and it's you know,
[15:16] not entirely their fault. There was the need for more immigration, as
[15:20] we know, but we also have problems that we just saw with Staff Canada,
[15:24] you know, reporting a couple of months ago, Oh there's an extra
[15:26] million people in the country that we didn't know about. So, I mean,
[15:31] the situation was already over evaporated. And then there was COVID on top
[15:35] of that, and work from home and an international student scam that was being
[15:39] perpetuated by some institutions essentially trying to sell you know, entry to Canada.
[15:45] So I think it was a file that was always going to blow up,
[15:48] but I don't think that they knew it was going to blow up the way
[15:50] that it did. And that, you know, shows that not enough people
[15:54] are talking in government, that they're not aware of what's happened. But Ranger,
[15:58] let's spring you in with the smart Yeah, just two quick points because
[16:02] I want to I want to kind of wrap that up before Fraser gets to
[16:04] the local. And and the the first thing is I I think you're you're
[16:10] onto something there. John that that last comment in terms of the the tools
[16:17] of feedback within government seem broken. The tools that institution use to signal to
[16:23] each other that that adjustments need to be made or that you know, we
[16:29] we need to we need to come together and consider this problem. It just
[16:33] doesn't seem to be working as effectively as it used to. And I don't
[16:37] know what the reasons are, but it's it's hard not not to notice it.
[16:41] And the the other thing kind of just to to maybe bring the the
[16:47] topic from the national to the local, you know, Uh, Fraser,
[16:53] I I think that you're you're you're making some interesting points here about about the
[17:03] sources of this problem when we talk about it locally. I think that there's
[17:11] a great difficulty, in going back to sort of the comment that I made
[17:15] a moment ago, there's great difficulty in getting good information out of the out
[17:21] of the ground level, out of the local level. And I wonder too
[17:25] if if another institution, that being our local MPs and MPPs are not able
[17:30] to serve in the way that they used to in getting those signals to government.
[17:37] Yeah, I think that's certainly possible, you know, as I think
[17:41] this is a broader conversation about party rigidity and you know, just following the
[17:45] party line I think, and you know, partisanship in general. You know,
[17:48] as long as it's a win for your team, it doesn't really matter
[17:52] how that win came about. That's sort of where politics is these days,
[17:55] unfortunately. But to sort of take it local a bit more low, a
[18:00] non local organization, the Marine's Law Firm out of Vancouver, which is a
[18:04] big immigration law firm in BC. They did a freedom of information request to
[18:10] Citizenship and Immigration Immigration at Refugees and Citizenship Canada, and what they requested was
[18:17] by institutional designated learning numbers. So every every college, university, trade school,
[18:22] public school, whatever in Canada, it can be registered as a Designated
[18:27] Learning institution and it's assigned a number, and then that allows those institutions to
[18:33] you know, be a part of the student permit process. And so what
[18:37] they did was they requested the number of student permits issued and denied by dil
[18:42] number for every institution in Canada as a freedom of information request. So that
[18:45] would include you know, local school boards as well as like trades programs all
[18:51] that. But when you look up Saint Clair College and the University of Windsors
[18:55] numbers for twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, so I'm going to read off
[18:59] a couple numbers for you, so in twenty twenty two, sorry, in
[19:03] twenty twenty two, and this is by calendar year, so it doesn't line
[19:07] up exactly with like school starting in September and then staying on through the school
[19:11] year. In twenty twenty two calendar year, the University of Windsor had three
[19:15] thousand, eight hundred and eighty seven successful student permits and it had eight hundred
[19:21] and ninety seven unsuccessful for an eighty one percent success rate. In the first
[19:26] fourth quarter of twenty twenty three, they had nine hundred and seventy eight successful
[19:32] student permits and three hundred and thirty two unsuccessful student permits, so seventy five
[19:37] percent success rate for an essence student permits being access So in twenty twenty two
[19:41] they brought in through this permit process about thirty eight just under thirty nine hundred
[19:47] international student permits. And this doesn't include renewals of student permits, so if
[19:51] the students here for multiple years or they had to apply for a renewal,
[19:53] there's a whole another set of numbers. For Saint Clair College, in twenty
[19:59] twenty two they had seven thousand and eighty eight successful student permits and ten thousand,
[20:04] four hundred and thirty eight unsuccessful student permits forty percent success rate. And
[20:11] in twenty twenty three, for the first quarter, you have two thousand and
[20:15] six successful student permits and twenty one hundred and ten unsuccessful student permits, about
[20:22] a fifty to fifty split. So this is the number of applicants student permit
[20:26] applicants that are linked to these post secondary institutions. Not all those students may
[20:30] actually eventually come here to be fair in that you have multiple you know,
[20:34] students may apply to multiple organizations, or they're using some sort of you know,
[20:38] uh use some sort of uh use some sort of you know, firm
[20:45] or whatever to help, you know, guide this. But this was a
[20:48] freedom of information request gathered by a law firm in BC and they then released
[20:53] all the files online. So again you also have to remember this is just
[20:57] for the designated student numbers or the institution number, so that doesn't designate which
[21:03] campus they necessarily go to. So in Saint Clair College's case, they have
[21:07] five campuses. They have a Mississauga, a Brampton campus, a Chatham campus,
[21:10] and then two in Windsor. So we don't know that this geographic distribution
[21:14] of which campuses those those things end up at. But that is the set
[21:21] of numbers that was released based on immigration, refugees and citizenships Canada's data for
[21:27] twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three. That's wild, Fraser. I love
[21:32] that you walked into this episode sitting on that data and didn't mention it until
[21:37] now. This is great. Well, it was the facial reactions I was
[21:40] after, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was awesome. I
[21:42] want to ask you though, if you looked at that data, did you
[21:45] happen to try to level set Saint Clair College within colleges in Ontario? So
[21:52] colleges are significantly higher from an international student perspective. It's really hard to actually
[21:59] level set because all that's in the list is actually the code number, not
[22:03] actually names of colleges. So, but other colleges like Conestoga, Mohawk,
[22:08] Fanshaw all have really high compared to university comparable universities international student permit numbers.
[22:18] So I this is a difficult topic. I want to approach this sensitively.
[22:26] Colleges in Ontario seem to have consistently pursued a practice of maximizing international students,
[22:38] and I think that that's one way to interpret the number of permit requests that
[22:45] if you you know, if you know that your success rate is going to
[22:48] be middling, then then you definitely want to flood the zone with with opportunities.
[22:55] My I guess, I guess that My question is, though this appears
[23:02] to have been a consistent policy like approach across across colleges in Ontario. This
[23:07] is not one institution going rogue. This is not like, you know,
[23:11] one particular college saying, hey, I think that we can we can maybe
[23:15] do this, and it's a little bit outside of what what the norms are
[23:18] about. Let's make some money. Everybody's doing it. It's hard for me
[23:23] to believe that the ministry wouldn't have been aware of the like the policy direction
[23:30] that colleges were taking. And I don't know a whole lot about how the
[23:37] relationship between the bureaucracy and colleges and universities works, but I would imagine there
[23:42] are some tools that that ministry could use, So, like, I I
[23:47] know there's I think there's a tendency to want to place this at the feet
[23:52] of institutions of colleges, and I think that there's certainly like an argument to
[23:56] be made that institutions be looking at their interests more broadly than the narrow interests
[24:04] on the balance sheet of the organization. But at the same time, how
[24:11] do you not say, like, where was the the Ontario Ministry in all
[24:15] of this? Well, I think, taking a step back to what you
[24:19] were saying earlier, Doug, you know, part of this is demographic,
[24:22] right. Post Secondary institutions generally work with young people, and as the demographic
[24:29] bubble with boomers has gone through, and you know, millennials have gone through.
[24:32] There are fewer domestic young students who are enrolling at post secondary institutions.
[24:37] I think also part of it has also been you know, public policy.
[24:40] When the Win government froze tuition rates, for example, at all post secondary
[24:45] institutions, universities and colleges, it forced those institutions as inflation continued to happen,
[24:51] as costs continued to happen, as you know, programs and things like
[24:55] that, and their legacy costs still had to be paid. They had to
[24:57] find other sources. And so it goes back to what you were saying about.
[25:00] You know, you had different different levels of government within different ministries,
[25:07] each with their own particular purview, siloed off from one another to a degree,
[25:11] and this is sort of how you get to a situation like this.
[25:15] And you know, again the numbers that I quoted were not the number of
[25:21] students who showed up, right, and so like we have to be clear
[25:23] on that, but like that's how many students applied, and then you know,
[25:27] some of them, you know, were successful for their visas and then
[25:30] maybe they you know, whatever else happened. Right, So I think,
[25:33] like we have to be mindful of that. But I also think like this
[25:37] has been a broad based policy failure. I think you could call it.
[25:41] It's not just fair to say that this was the federal liberals fault. But
[25:45] you know, again, because they didn't you know, update the immigration rules
[25:49] fifteen years ago to index it to inflation or something like that, or the
[25:53] Harper government didn't do that, you know, ten years ago or whatever.
[25:57] You know, this was a pathway that was sort of that blind spot was
[26:02] there, and then that blind spot sort of grew over time. You know,
[26:06] is it is it maybe a problem of democracy that we have this approach
[26:11] where we need to point a finger of blame when things go wrong, you
[26:15] know, Like I think I take your point really well, Frazier, Like
[26:21] I don't think any one person or institution can be singled out to say,
[26:26] like we have we have a housing problem because person X pushed this button instead
[26:32] of that button. Like I don't think that's I don't think that you can
[26:34] do that. And I think it's simplistic to say that, and and and
[26:37] whatnot. But on the other hand, don't we have an expectation of like,
[26:44] as Canadians, don't we have an expectation that leaders in this country,
[26:48] when they have a choice between pushing a button A and put to pushing button
[26:52] B, that they're going to think about their social responsibility. They're going to
[26:56] think about whether they're contributing to a policy it's problematic that they're going to exercise
[27:03] their judgment and perhaps act as a flywheel to keep policy from becoming too extreme
[27:08] or having too serious an impact. Like is that not what we pay all
[27:12] these people for? We'd hope so. But I think I think there's a
[27:18] struggle around leadership sometimes, and you know, there's a first move or disadvantage,
[27:23] right, Like if you were a college or a university who didn't want
[27:29] to tap into international students for whatever reason, you know, the choice would
[27:33] have then been to, you know, we're going to shut down the history
[27:37] department or something like that. And you sort of saw that with Laurentian,
[27:41] right, you know, the last ten years being an idiot. Yeah,
[27:45] it's like and you saw that, like you weren't, you know, Laurentian
[27:48] University. And they'd made a ton of mistakes as well. But one of
[27:51] the things was they struggled with international student attraction because it was up north in
[27:55] Laurentian and things like that, and that's a very simplistic reason for the bankruptcy
[28:00] of that university, but like or the whatever. I don't think it was
[28:03] technically a bankruptcy, but whatever it was, you know, that was then
[28:07] the warning shot there of you know, how those institutional finances could go so
[28:12] sideways. It's all so complex, with so many different moving pieces. I
[28:21] guess are you at all hopeful, traz Or that as a result of this
[28:25] massive clusterfuck that we're in now, that like maybe something positive can come from
[28:30] it in terms of getting everyone remaining on the same page or are we still
[28:33] going to fall back in because that's natural? Yeah, I think I think
[28:38] again, like policy is an iterative process, right, and so like there's
[28:42] things to learn from this and going forward, this threshold is going to rise
[28:47] with inflation and stuff like that. So you know, there are pros and
[28:51] cons as Doug talked about in the equity issues potentially with that, but like
[28:56] you know there but like again, like part of this is about government's just
[29:02] got to talk to each other, and different branches within governments have to talk
[29:06] to one another, and there has to be proactive leadership about that and that's
[29:10] a challenge in modern society. Yeah, I don't know, just real quick.
[29:15] You know, the simple process for me is, if you're going to
[29:18] bring in X number of thousands of students and they get charged a lot more
[29:22] than local students do. Part of the responsibility of any institution was you should
[29:26] be able, you should have to provide housing for them. You know,
[29:29] we're raising the threshold. I think trader shit is around ten grand by ten
[29:33] grand by ten grands. So, and then there was some job requirements,
[29:37] things like you can only work so many job hours and stuff. And I
[29:38] don't know if this is an employment issue as far as you know, we're
[29:42] trying to save jobs for you know, our local people as opposed to the
[29:45] foreign students. But if you're going to raise thresholds and they're going to need
[29:49] another ten thousand dollars, you know, it raise their tuition ten thousand dollars,
[29:52] but all that money has to go into a fund to build housing and
[29:56] housing these people. And that's a mandatory portion of the the whole program is
[30:00] the college has to provide housings even if it cost them another ten thousand dollars.
[30:03] Account here, I mean there there there are some simple solutions that I
[30:10] just don't think anyone wants to do because politically it's it's just not palatable.
[30:15] As Doug would say, well let's move on from here, because as much
[30:22] as we want to bring up the simple solutions and solve all the problems,
[30:26] no one really listens to us. Sucks except for you here listeners. Thank
[30:30] you. Big news, I guess, depending on how you look at it.
[30:34] With the announcement that the Globe and Mail is launching a top up euro
[30:41] to focus on what's going on down here in Windsor, Ontario, the editor
[30:45] and shoots at the Globe David Walmsley dropping unexpected editorial about it. Basically,
[30:52] they're saying, you've got a lot of stuff going on down there. You've
[30:53] got the hospital, you've got the bridge, you've got the EV plant,
[30:57] there's a lot of investments and look like you're going to be doing really well.
[31:00] So we want to be down there while it's happening to be able to
[31:03] report on it. So they're going to be sending down photographers and journalists sporadically
[31:08] over the next while. We don't have a timeline, but it's part of
[31:12] an ongoing series that they've been doing where they dive into other communities. And
[31:18] they actually already started with a big front page span of the Globe, which
[31:22] I'm sure a lot of you have already seen on social media. It's made
[31:26] the round by a lot of areas people in our community called the Bridge to
[31:30] Windsor's Revitalized feature and it explores how Windsor's undergoing a major shift from manufacturing hub
[31:36] that suffered from the recessions to the city now attracting investment, innovation, and
[31:41] population growth in the EV and tech sectors. That highlights some of the challenges
[31:45] and opportunities, including some stories of various people and businesses involved in what they
[31:49] keep referring to as Windsor's revival. And they spoke with Reco International Group,
[31:55] next our Energy, next to the Innovation Path day a More and Art and
[31:59] others. And it also discuts hosing affordability down to rebalization, labor shortages,
[32:04] and political uncertainty Windsor faces. I mean, a lot of the stuff sounds
[32:07] like the stuff we chat about here on the podcast Fairly Onest to you guys.
[32:12] It also dives into some of the implications for Canada. Says that Windsor
[32:15] success could have positive fillover for rests of Canada, such as boosting trade,
[32:20] productivity and living standards, but they do say the thereical risks and uncertainties that
[32:23] could be rail this momentum, such as the pace of the Eavy transition,
[32:28] critical mineral access, and the future government support. And then we'll talk a
[32:32] little bit as well about some of the politics that we saw at play within
[32:37] this article and some of the voices. You know, I guess like,
[32:43] hey, you know, why not Windsor's going through a bunch right now,
[32:45] where you know, it's a good story going from like the underdog sort of
[32:49] at all times to seeing some of the largest investments that the country is seeing.
[32:53] It's you know, unexpected bound to get people pissed off, So that's
[32:58] always great to get eyes onto a website and pages turning. We've already been
[33:04] seeing, quite frankly, the ed plant becoming a big political volleyball from expected
[33:09] players, unexpected players, the semi expected players. So you know, capitalizing
[33:15] on that from the media perspective, positive diving into the issues that we have
[33:21] down here and explain them to the rest of Canada, I think is actually
[33:24] a very good thing for them to do. Even though we've got the Winter
[33:29] Star and they're part of the post media group. It seems like there's not
[33:32] as much upward flow as one would hope in some of the stories that we
[33:37] have here, but you know, trying to compete to that audience and stuff.
[33:39] But we can dive into more of the politics. But that's my top
[33:43] level right off the bat. Yeah, you know, I think there's the
[33:51] reaction that I have to the Globe doing this piece and and and creating a
[33:57] like a pop up Winsor Bureau is I'm excited about it. I think there's
[34:00] a lot of potential here. I think that that it's could be really good
[34:06] to get an outside eye on our city. It also is kind of sad
[34:13] because isn't this what the Windsor Star used to do every day? And and
[34:19] I'm really bummed about that, you know, And I think our our lament
[34:24] kind of what was sounded like our weekly lament for the Windsor Star, and
[34:29] it's declined and so forth. You guys notice that we don't even talk about
[34:31] it anymore because it's it's it's happened, it's finished, it's it's you know,
[34:37] that that process is concluded and that newspaper is now what it is and
[34:43] there is nothing to replace it until this pop up bureau from the Global Mail
[34:47] comes along. And that's kind of exciting, right and and at least for
[34:52] a short time, we may have may have enough media scrutiny in this community.
[35:01] The other thing that concerns me about it is that it is a pop
[35:05] up and I think that I think that that's going to make it tough.
[35:09] You know, the Windsor Star as an institution has been in this city for
[35:15] decades and in fact, I believe over a century, pretty hard to replicate
[35:22] that level of knowledge depth, and you know how ingrained you are in a
[35:27] community, and how in tune with it you are in in a few weeks
[35:31] from from an outside perspective, you know, coming down from Toronto. So
[35:37] I'm concerned that expectations might be too high, but I really welcome it.
[35:45] Yeah, I'd agree with that. Like, I think there's I think all
[35:47] coverage is good coverage to a degree. I think there's stories to be told
[35:52] here. I think my hope is that they are able to dig into some
[35:54] of the nitty gritty of those stories, right, And I think my concern
[36:00] would be, you know, if the reporter is driving down from Toronto for
[36:04] you know, two weeks, two days a month or something like that,
[36:07] you know, and he has to hit you know, the ten people he
[36:09] has to talk to in order to get a story out or something like that.
[36:15] You know, there could be you know, the surface level stories that
[36:19] I think that we talk about a lot, that we sort of have critiques
[36:22] for, will be the stories that get amplified at that national level, and
[36:25] that doesn't tell really the true story of of what is happening in Windsor right,
[36:32] And like, I think there's some you know, there's a lot of
[36:36] great stuff happening, but there's also you know the implications of those great things.
[36:38] You know, you know, the Globe's right, it's record government investment
[36:44] in this community that's transforming this community. But you know that investment is not
[36:50] equitably distributed across the community either. So there's like lots of great conversations that
[36:53] could be had and hopefully they get had. Yeah, what Frazier said,
[36:59] you know, that's pretty standard PR stuff. You know, as long as
[37:04] they're talking about you, it doesn't matter if the news is good to bad.
[37:06] At least you're getting some PR out of this. You know, I
[37:08] think the difference between the Windsor Star and the Globe and Mail is, you
[37:12] know, there's two different parent companies that kind of have two different political events.
[37:15] The Winsor Start is owned by the National Post, which I enjoy,
[37:20] but you know, they have kind of a different political event than you know,
[37:22] the Star would have Toronto Star and the Globe Mail. You know,
[37:28] on the plus side, I think, you know, there's probably a lot
[37:30] of people in there's a lot of areas in this country who just want to
[37:32] hear a good news story. So you know, we're kind of thick of
[37:36] it. I think it's rare for us to be the poster child for things
[37:38] that are going well in the country, so you know, it's it's a
[37:42] good story. I think politically it's going to help some you know, some
[37:46] politicians around even locally and federally, to say, you know, this is
[37:51] look at all the great things we're doing down here. We're going to use
[37:53] this as the you know, this is our shining light as opposed to you
[37:57] know, talking about the rest of the country that's having really hard time right
[37:59] now. So you know, any news is good news, and you know,
[38:02] if good things are happening, we debate how they've happened, you know,
[38:07] a million times, but the reality is economically, these jobs are going
[38:10] to help. The bridge is going to help. It will be opened up
[38:13] soon, and hopefully we'll be able to key off that and not just you
[38:15] know, do the old mission accomplished. George Bush then can go back to
[38:19] just ignoring things like always, so, you know, the news coverage.
[38:22] Yeah, it's sad that, you know, it is what it is,
[38:25] but I think that's just the reality of it, and going forward, this
[38:29] is you know, this is just how it's going to operate. Yeah.
[38:31] I was always a little trepidacious about this initially because for some of the things
[38:39] that have been brought out in this conversation already, I was a little concerned
[38:44] that, you know, what we're going to see as a reinforcement of elite
[38:47] narratives because of you know, elite access to the journalists and so forth.
[38:52] And I'm sure that that's going to happen. But a good friend of the
[38:55] show, in our pre chat conversation and a good friend of the show,
[39:00] pointed out that that that piece is probably going to spur a lot of people
[39:07] to take a look at Windsor as an investment destination. And I know we
[39:10] talk a lot about you know, how that argument gets deployed by people and
[39:15] so forth. But you know what I think this is, this is genuinely
[39:19] an opportunity in that direction. And that changed my thinking about this Globe and
[39:22] Mail piece because you know what, I really hope, I really hope that
[39:27] that the piece is uh or that the the this series is illuminating, and
[39:32] that it that it is brings clarity to Windsor, because what I'm really convinced
[39:38] of is that if if you can clearly see the challenges in Windsor and you
[39:45] have a bunch of capital, there are a number of opportunities that that somebody
[39:50] can come here and exploit things that are not being exploited by locals for whatever
[39:54] reason, opportunities that are not being exploited by locals. And I I think
[40:00] that I think that that Canada's a pretty smart place with a lot of smart
[40:02] people in it, and hopefully some of that smart money comes here and does
[40:06] good things fire downtown guys. So you know one thing that does worry me
[40:14] a bit is there's one paragraph here. I'll read it a conservative back of
[40:19] the Napping tally for all of the activities shows more than sixteen billion will flow
[40:22] into the region over just the next few years, most into the city of
[40:25] Windsor itself, a compact area roughly one hundred and forty seven square kilometers in
[40:30] five that's home to about two hundred and thirty thousand people. That works out
[40:35] to an astonishing one hundred and ten million dollars per square kilometers. So again
[40:39] going back to your point, Frazier, not you know, not distributed equally
[40:44] equitably whatsoever. But they're not even trying to reference that in the piece.
[40:49] There's no reason to go and put it in this perspective whatsoever. And then
[40:53] you go a little bit further on into ah where you get to talking from
[40:58] Marino, where it talks about how you can purchase a house today in Windsor
[41:04] for two hundred and seventy five thousand dollars, and don fact checked what's the
[41:07] average price of a house today just over five hundred and bid five hundreds.
[41:12] Cheapest house you're going to get in Windsor that you'll want to live in is
[41:15] going to be three to three fifty. So two seventy fives have been on
[41:17] the light side. So you're telling people. Hey, every first square kilometer
[41:22] in Windsor is going to see one hundred and ten million dollars in investment and
[41:27] you can pick up houses for like seventy five bucks. Come on down to
[41:30] Windsor. I mean, I think that it's all it's going to do is
[41:34] potentially one fIF off people about Windsor when they hear about all this money flowing
[41:38] into it again, and we're going to become a political football. And two
[41:43] it might bring more eyes to the region, which you were just talking about.
[41:45] As you know, it is a good thing done, but there is
[41:49] also the risk of perpetua in the very same problem that we were talking about
[41:52] at the outset of the housing situation that we're already in. So you know,
[41:58] it's a double edged sword. How are we going to deal with them?
[42:00] Yeah, real, real quick. I don't want to jump in.
[42:01] But you know, years ago, the real Estate Board and some building groups
[42:06] others did a big advertising campaign in the major cities like Toronto, Calgary to
[42:09] try to get people to move to Windsor. And this was back two thousand
[42:13] and seven, eight nine. When you know, so a big part of
[42:15] the advertiser is you could buy a house and Windsor for sixty thousand dollars.
[42:19] And as a real estate agent, I'm sure I speak for all of them
[42:22] here. We all got calls I want on a house on Riverside Drive for
[42:24] sixty thousand dollars. I think I think that whole, like what Reno had
[42:30] discussed in there about you know, you can buy a house real cheap,
[42:31] I think we have to get over that. We seem to have this inferiority
[42:37] complex where you're only going to come here because it's cheap. We got to
[42:39] stop talking about how cheap it is and start talking about how much it would
[42:44] benefit you to come down here, even if you know, regardless of what
[42:46] housing prices are, there are business opportunities here there, with our labor force,
[42:52] with our low obviously, with our geography, and with the new bridge
[42:55] happening, that we don't have to just keep selling ourselves as cheap. And
[43:00] that kind of gets old after a while because it's not he it's not a
[43:05] factual statement. You can't buy houses here for two hundred and seventy five thousand
[43:08] dollars are going to want to live in, And it just continues the narrative
[43:13] of how hard done by we are and we're an impoverished area and things that
[43:17] are tough, so come here and save us. And I think at some
[43:21] point we have to change the narrative to we're failures, please help us,
[43:24] to you can be successful, because this is a successful area. Harrio was
[43:31] frantically taking notes there because I think we've got three title contenders through the show.
[43:37] Now quit talking about how cheap it is here. We don't have to
[43:38] keep selling ourselves as cheap. And my favorite, we're failures, please help
[43:44] them. That's a good one. I'm still advocating for second Globe and mail.
[43:51] It's the side chat that keeps the show going. But let's move on
[43:54] right now to our last topic that we wanted to get to. Media insight
[44:00] top piece for the most part, and Jarvis had a column in the Windsor
[44:06] Star. She's a member of the Friends of the Ojibway Prairie National Urban Park
[44:09] Committee and as all of course, a former Windsor Star reporter and colonist.
[44:15] So the piece that she wrote is about the Ojibway Prairie complex and the need
[44:20] to establish the National Urban Park. She talked about the two different routes of
[44:22] going about it, the one way being the bill that Windsor West MP Bryan
[44:25] Nassas brought Gratias brought forward the other way being the one champion by Windsor tecumcy
[44:30] Mpierre because Marchik the Parks Canada Process for Peace argues that the park needs to
[44:36] be enshrined in legislation, have ecological integrity as the top priority, be expanded
[44:40] to include more properties involved local stakeholders in management, including the Ojibwe, Odawa
[44:46] and Patawama of the Free Fires Confederacy, and includes a call to action which
[44:52] is just saying, hey, join the group that we're in, Contact your
[44:55] elected officials and support the creation of this national park. It's always interesting when
[45:04] a wild and Jervis appears and carries so much weight with her words. Yeah,
[45:12] I think so. I think this is one of the most interesting things
[45:15] that's happened in Windsor in a while. This like the question of why this
[45:21] column now, you know, and maybe it's just me missing an Jarvis going
[45:23] back to the decline of the Windsor Star a little bit missing, you know.
[45:27] Reading her column regularly, I didn't always agree with what she wrote,
[45:30] but like it was there. It was usually well thought out, as usually
[45:31] well positioned and I think, you know, I have so many questions about
[45:40] this. Why now, what's the goal of this because the language in there
[45:45] is the language of mobilization, and that's a very unique set of language for
[45:50] Windsor. You know, there's a clear call to action at the end,
[45:53] and the clear you know statement around from the Friends of Jibwe, which she's
[45:58] on the committee represent you know, we fought for and got the gold standard
[46:01] border crossing the verb Grave Parkway. Now we have to fight for the gold
[46:05] standard national parks. You know, like this is a clear sort of action
[46:09] call. You don't see that very often in Windsor, which I think is
[46:13] very interesting. And I also think, you know, she doesn't explicitly go,
[46:19] you know, pick a side in there around between sort of the two
[46:22] processes only highlights sort of certain core outcomes. But the Friends of a Jibway
[46:28] have a very clear idea, I would suspect, and I don't know for
[46:30] sure what they want out of this national park and what you're seeing as a
[46:35] political action group mobilizing. And I think that's going to be very interesting because
[46:39] I think Anne's probably reading the tea leaves about the politics of the next year
[46:43] or so and you know, the university was funded to do the Urban National
[46:47] Park Hub, and you know that's two years of funding which started back in
[46:52] April, and I don't know where that process is, but there hasn't been
[46:55] a significant public engagement process rolled out yet, which I as a part of
[47:00] that process. And so I think what you're seeing is the prepositioning of of
[47:05] sort of the Friends of a Jibway because I think there's a lot of really
[47:07] important political questions that are going to get raised by this National park, both
[47:12] at a local, provincial, and federal level. And you know, the
[47:15] question that's out there is who's actually in a position to deliver the outcomes that
[47:21] Friends of Ojibway want. And I think, like you know, a clear
[47:24] example that jumps to mind for me is Matchet Road, right, Like I
[47:29] know they've talked about closing match Up Road, you know, between spruce Wood
[47:31] and Broadway, you know, to sort of connect the Ojibway complex there with
[47:37] across the road there the Spring Garden and the other properties across the road there.
[47:42] And you know, think of the political implications for windsor LaSalle windsor West
[47:49] MP's and MPPs. You know, we finally just printed out the new signs
[47:52] and we got like all the communities to do it, I know, but
[47:55] like you know, we can like you know, but like think about like
[47:59] just that item which is probably on the Friends of Ojibway's like wish list,
[48:04] Like think about the implications of that, right and so the fact that they're
[48:08] sort of in the final you know, two weeks of December before Christmas,
[48:14] sort of putting a line out there and saying we're starting to plan ahead.
[48:19] It's laying some very interesting groundwork for twenty twenty four and when those conversations start,
[48:24] you know, the actual engagement processes start, which I'm from I understand
[48:29] you're supposed to happen about what is or isn't going to be you know,
[48:32] acceptable to the Friends of Ojibway as an outcome, and the potential political pressure
[48:37] they'll bring to bear on those outcomes. I'm I'm not that interested in the
[48:45] whole park thing. It's just you know, I'm not saying it's not important.
[48:49] And Frazer, I like, I see the the the threads that you're
[48:54] talking about, and I think that there is going to be a lot of
[48:57] interesting stuff. It's just like person only not particularly interested in like bureaucratic wrangling
[49:02] around Parks. I am really interested in this piece by Anne Jarvis, though,
[49:08] because I think like one thing that struck me throughout the tenure of Anne
[49:19] Jarvis at the Windsor Star is how underestimated she was for somebody who was so
[49:24] accomplished, who contributed to the community conversation at a high level for years and
[49:32] years on end. I certainly felt that Anne Jarvis did not get the respect
[49:38] that she was due in many quarters, especially when you compare the kind of
[49:45] like sort of fawning and simpering that people would do about Gord Henderson, who,
[49:52] like let's be frank, kind of sucked and was a sellout. So
[49:55] like when you compare the two, it strikes me that Jarvis did not have
[50:00] the you know, did not carry that reputation. But look at what she's
[50:04] done since retirement. Anne Jarvis knows who she is, and I think she
[50:09] has a pretty good handle on the level of political and social capital she has
[50:14] in this town. In the time that since she's retired, she has deployed
[50:16] it twice, once to support Darcy Reno in the municipal election in twenty twenty
[50:25] two and once to do to intervene. As Fraser points out most subtly and
[50:31] with great timing on the issue of the development of the urban park. I
[50:38] wish we had more people like Anne Jarvis and Windsor. That's my observation here.
[50:44] Yeah, Windsor would be so much better if there was you know,
[50:46] three or four columnists talking about that. Maybe the Global Male is going to
[50:50] bring that right, Like, maybe there will be you know, maybe it's
[50:52] a monthly column or something like that. But like, you know, if
[50:54] you have some smart Toronto journalists covering Windsor, you know, not to talk
[50:59] down a Windsor, but you know, because you know, there's certainly a
[51:02] lot of you know, conversations that could be had if triggered by a smart
[51:07] column put front and center in front of people. Oh maybe this was her
[51:10] audition for the gig, you know. I think the problem is is this
[51:16] just shows that while Anne was at the Windsor Star, she never read the
[51:21] letters to the editor, because if she did, she would realize these are
[51:24] not journalistic stories that are coming through. It's more, Hey, there's kids
[51:29] in the park screaming, and I should be allowed to hit them with a
[51:30] shovel. And that's why I'm mad about It's Peter Griffin, what grinds my
[51:35] gears kind of thing, And she wrote like a column and a piece that
[51:37] she would have done during her career as a letter to the editors. It's
[51:40] just it's the wrong it's the wrong place to do this kind of stuff.
[51:44] We are not looking for journalistic expertise in a letter to the editor. I
[51:47] want outrage. Well, this is what's most frustrating about where we're at right
[51:53] now. Without having you know, a paid political chattering class dives into things
[52:00] and get sources and goes out of their way to look at a story for
[52:06] four months, six months, eight months, just keeping it on the back
[52:07] burner. We anyone can read the news without having to, you know,
[52:14] go to a news outlet. We can all get press releases and we can
[52:16] all just get the news that way, all the news outlets, you know,
[52:21] in the place that I work at, we do a great job at
[52:23] polating, collecting and doing interviews and adding to it. But you know,
[52:28] it's that investigative, it's that behind the scenes stuff that you really get to.
[52:30] It's that opinion formation as well that you really get to. We don't
[52:37] talking about this here, and we don't have that anymore, and there are
[52:39] still a sizeable amount I say sizeable amount. It's less than the Reddit community,
[52:45] but a sizeable amount of windsor I who read the windsor start and they
[52:47] still do carry influence, and albeit they can't be shared on Facebook right now,
[52:53] and I think I'm arguing against my point as it gets further along in
[52:59] it just we need so much better, and like thinks, it's amazing what
[53:05] the decline has been in such a short period. That's my fist. And
[53:12] on that. Okay, Doug, I thought you were No, I'm tired
[53:17] today. That's good. Doug was just going to go back to how he
[53:21] hates parks and wants to run over world with his cards time. I don't
[53:23] hate parks. I just I love to visit parks, but like somebody else,
[53:28] can worry about where the garbage can goes. Did you ever watch Parks
[53:32] and rec Yeah, that's a fantastic show. I enjoyed it. Are you
[53:37] kidding? Have you met my wife John? Do you think that she enjoys
[53:39] the misadventures of Leslie? Nope? Well right there, we'll leave it at
[53:46] that. Thank you everyone for listening to Rosity politics. It is December of
[53:51] The tenth panel included praise your father's Don Merrifield, Junior, Doug Star Tory,
[53:54] myself, John lydkey Head to patron dot com, flat roasty politics,
[53:58] take up a big business magazine and read it. Read us there, like
[54:02] subscribe and share. That is really important. We don't say that enough.
[54:07] And Rasity Policies be able to broadcast live on tape thanks the kind support of
[54:09] Lena six two five Building better Communities yea

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