# Session 476: Surviving Middle School in a Tech-Driven World

An episode of [Therapy for Black Girls](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1223803641), 12 Aug 2026, 54 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/2a22ac04-0eb4-4aad-8dc2-ae270179efb9/8a04a8ce-dfb1-4b49-8900-b4a400389fd7/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=2d42d89c-4962-4760-a616-ae270179efd5

In the 1st episode of our “Surviving Middle School” series, we chat with Dr. Whitney J. Raglin Bignall about how to foster a balanced relationship between your middle schooler and technology in a world where tech is at our fingertips around the clock. We get into the real-life effects of group chats, how to integrate technology in a healthy way, and the major importance of building emotional resilience in a world where many children turn to tech for support. About the Podcast The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. Where to Find Our Guest Instagram LinkedIn Stay Connected Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:10] Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
[0:14] Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
[0:19] Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
[0:22] Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
[0:27] Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
[0:32] Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
[0:35] Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
[0:39] Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
[0:43] Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
[0:46] Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
[0:57] Speaker 1: for joining me for session four seventy six of the
[0:59] Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Today marks the start of
[1:03] Speaker 1: our Surviving middle School series, and I'm excited to kick
[1:06] Speaker 1: things off with doctor Whitney J Raglan Bignall. We'll be
[1:09] Speaker 1: diving into how to survive middle school in a tech
[1:11] Speaker 1: driven world. But first, a quick word from our sponsors.
[1:25] Speaker 1: Do you remember what life was like in middle school
[1:27] Speaker 1: or are you currently parenting a middle schooler? It's an
[1:31] Speaker 1: interesting time, isn't it? For a lot of us, middle
[1:34] Speaker 1: school represents a particularly vulnerable time where we're rapidly developing
[1:38] Speaker 1: as individuals and gaining independents, all while trying to figure
[1:41] Speaker 1: out our place in the world. And for middle schoolers now,
[1:45] Speaker 1: navigating all of that in a world where fast developing
[1:48] Speaker 1: technologies are within arms reach can make things a lot
[1:51] Speaker 1: more complicated if the proper boundaries aren't in place. Today,
[1:55] Speaker 1: we're joined by doctor Whitney j Raglan Bignall, clinical psychologists
[1:59] Speaker 1: and Associate see a clinical director and Director of Community
[2:02] Speaker 1: Impact and Evaluation at the Kids' Mental Health Foundation. Doctor
[2:06] Speaker 1: Raglan Bignall has dedicated years of her career to creating
[2:10] Speaker 1: accessible and equitable mental health resources for children and working
[2:14] Speaker 1: with families to ensure safe and healthy parenting practices. In
[2:18] Speaker 1: today's episode, we're chatting about the importance of fostering a
[2:21] Speaker 1: balanced relationship between your middle schooler and technology, how to
[2:25] Speaker 1: safely engage on the Internet, and why villainizing screens isn't
[2:29] Speaker 1: necessarily the answer. Press play and let's get into it. Well,
[2:38] Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Whitney.
[2:41] Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for your incas.
[2:44] Speaker 1: I'm very excited to chat with you. This is a
[2:46] Speaker 1: topic near and dear to my heart and it is
[2:48] Speaker 1: a part of our Surviving middle School series.
[2:50] Speaker 2: That we are doing.
[2:52] Speaker 1: I am the mom of a seventh grader, and so
[2:54] Speaker 1: I have all kinds of questions, which is why I
[2:56] Speaker 1: really wanted to explore this. So, you know, talking specifically
[3:01] Speaker 1: about technology in the digital impact on middle school age kids,
[3:05] Speaker 1: why do you think it's really important to kind of
[3:07] Speaker 1: carve out a specific conversation for this topic in specific?
[3:11] Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I think in general, this particular generation has
[3:16] Speaker 2: all ways been with technology. They don't know a time
[3:19] Speaker 2: in their life without it, and so for them it's interchangeable.
[3:23] Speaker 2: Right in person versus social interactions, there are like almost
[3:27] Speaker 2: one of the same in the sense of how much
[3:29] Speaker 2: they are influencing their being and their lives and their
[3:32] Speaker 2: communication and who they connect with. So I think for
[3:36] Speaker 2: us we have to know that all the things that
[3:38] Speaker 2: they think about, how they connect, how they learn, so
[3:42] Speaker 2: many aspects of their life has to do with in
[3:45] Speaker 2: person but also with technology and online, and so we
[3:48] Speaker 2: have to be talking about it.
[3:50] Speaker 1: I'm really curious, doctor Whitney, do you know if any
[3:52] Speaker 1: research or like scans of the brain in terms of
[3:57] Speaker 1: what that's like, Right, Because you and I grew up
[3:58] Speaker 1: with we got into used to technology kind of later
[4:01] Speaker 1: in our lives once we had kind of already grown
[4:03] Speaker 1: up with analogue so to speak. Right, And so are
[4:07] Speaker 1: there any models of what the brain looks like maybe
[4:09] Speaker 1: now for kids this age versus maybe when we were younger.
[4:13] Speaker 2: So I'm not sure of any studies. There are may
[4:15] Speaker 2: be some that exists. I do know that we know
[4:18] Speaker 2: that the brain is rewarded by being on social media, right,
[4:23] Speaker 2: and so that dopamine, that reward system goes off when
[4:26] Speaker 2: we have more interactions, and so I am sure that
[4:30] Speaker 2: in some ways we see that for them, it's probably
[4:33] Speaker 2: being influenced in some way because of just how the
[4:37] Speaker 2: algorithms work and how our brain interacts with them. M h.
[4:42] Speaker 1: So you already mentioned that technology is really interchangeable with
[4:46] Speaker 1: kids this age. What impact are we seeing with children
[4:50] Speaker 1: middle school age in terms of social media and their
[4:53] Speaker 1: relationship to screens?
[4:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it's interesting because so many kids
[4:59] Speaker 2: have phones, right, So, like by age eleven or so,
[5:02] Speaker 2: at least seventy percent have a phone. So we know
[5:05] Speaker 2: that they're accessing this information all the time, and so
[5:09] Speaker 2: it is impacting who they're talking to, So they can
[5:13] Speaker 2: be talking to their own friend group that they know,
[5:15] Speaker 2: but they could also be talking to people who are
[5:17] Speaker 2: just nationally far away, right, And what we know is
[5:21] Speaker 2: that for some kids it can be helpful. Right, they
[5:24] Speaker 2: could be creating them, they can be connecting to people
[5:27] Speaker 2: who have civil identities, and that can be really good
[5:30] Speaker 2: for their mental health. But it can also be harmful
[5:33] Speaker 2: for them, depending on how opened or like public facing
[5:37] Speaker 2: their accounts are. And so I think that's interesting to
[5:40] Speaker 2: think about because they are so much wired in how
[5:45] Speaker 2: people are consuming their information socially, right, So how many
[5:50] Speaker 2: likes or views they're getting, we can see that that
[5:53] Speaker 2: plays a huge part in like their way that they
[5:56] Speaker 2: see themselves and how they feel about themselves, and so
[6:00] Speaker 2: lots of ways that they want to connect and they
[6:03] Speaker 2: feel like their friends are connecting them that way. So
[6:05] Speaker 2: they want to be on social media. But it can
[6:07] Speaker 2: have some good things happening and some recultarve adverse of
[6:11] Speaker 2: things too.
[6:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really glad you shared this because this is
[6:14] Speaker 1: probably I mean, there are lots of things I'm concerned about,
[6:17] Speaker 1: but this in particular, because we know that this kind
[6:20] Speaker 1: of adolescent preteen kind of stage is where developmentally they
[6:24] Speaker 1: are so conscientious and conscious about like how are people
[6:29] Speaker 1: perceiving me and what does this look like? And you know,
[6:31] Speaker 1: like I said, when I was younger, like that only
[6:34] Speaker 1: kind of happened in like your day to day interactions.
[6:37] Speaker 1: But now because you are perceived virtually right by like
[6:41] Speaker 1: you said, people that you know and people that you
[6:43] Speaker 1: do not know, can you talk about like how that
[6:46] Speaker 1: actually helps to shape their identity kind of being perceived
[6:49] Speaker 1: online in this.
[6:50] Speaker 2: Way, Yeah, because you want people to like it, so
[6:54] Speaker 2: then they're thinking about how to make it the best
[6:56] Speaker 2: or look the best, or take the picture so many
[6:59] Speaker 2: times to do the dance a certain way, you know,
[7:02] Speaker 2: or cannot be funny, so that people were like, there's
[7:04] Speaker 2: this extra pressure to be something else sometimes that I
[7:08] Speaker 2: think can be really hard for them. I also think
[7:10] Speaker 2: the other thing is because everyone ONLIGN is trying to
[7:13] Speaker 2: be the best selves, there's this fear of missing out,
[7:18] Speaker 2: that fomo that can happen because you think that everybody's
[7:22] Speaker 2: going on this vacation or doing these really big things,
[7:25] Speaker 2: or having this new technology system or game or something
[7:29] Speaker 2: that you might not have, and so I think it
[7:31] Speaker 2: can make you sometimes feel bad about yourself. Maybe if
[7:34] Speaker 2: you are seeing people either one interacting with each other
[7:37] Speaker 2: and they're not interacting with you, So then you can
[7:40] Speaker 2: feel left out or not included, or you might feel
[7:44] Speaker 2: that you don't have what they have, and so you
[7:46] Speaker 2: can feel less than in that way too. So there's
[7:49] Speaker 2: lots of different harms a little bit in that way
[7:52] Speaker 2: regarding like you want to show your best, but also
[7:55] Speaker 2: everyone else is doing that too, and so that can
[7:57] Speaker 2: inadvertently make people feel less than when they're comparison are
[8:02] Speaker 2: comparing themselves to each other.
[8:05] Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, And you know you mentioned the idea
[8:07] Speaker 1: of kind of paying attention to who's talking to who,
[8:11] Speaker 1: and so the other thing that I think has been
[8:13] Speaker 1: interesting around technology is like group chats and friendship groups
[8:18] Speaker 1: and how they evolve or dissipate in some ways because
[8:22] Speaker 1: of technology. So can you talk about like conflict resolution
[8:26] Speaker 1: and like friendship management and how that is impacted by technology.
[8:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, because we know, for male scores and particular, friends
[8:32] Speaker 2: are so integral to like who they are, what they are, like,
[8:38] Speaker 2: like how they feel about themselves. And so back in
[8:41] Speaker 2: we used to like meet up in the howfrateria or
[8:44] Speaker 2: recess or whatever else, and that's where we would all
[8:46] Speaker 2: did you hear about this thing or whatever else. But
[8:49] Speaker 2: group chat allows it so that now you know you're
[8:54] Speaker 2: constantly connecting, right, And so there's this pressure to connect.
[8:58] Speaker 2: But also if people are chat and you are not
[9:01] Speaker 2: on that chat, what's that mean? Are you not their
[9:04] Speaker 2: friends anymore? Or are you being left out? Are they
[9:07] Speaker 2: talking about you?
[9:08] Speaker 1: Like?
[9:08] Speaker 2: All of those anxieties start to happen when you're not included.
[9:12] Speaker 2: And there are times when things are said on the
[9:14] Speaker 2: group chat that can affend someone and naturally just bring
[9:20] Speaker 2: forth some kind of conflict. Because I think we all
[9:23] Speaker 2: can say that we've experienced this what's said online. We
[9:26] Speaker 2: don't have any of the facial expression, the tone, We
[9:29] Speaker 2: just have the words that are there, and so you
[9:32] Speaker 2: can misinterpret that pretty easily, and so your feelings could
[9:36] Speaker 2: be heard about why do they say that about me?
[9:39] Speaker 2: Or they don't like me or whatever else, and that
[9:42] Speaker 2: can then cause that conflict to occur. And so a
[9:45] Speaker 2: lot of the work that I do when I'm talking
[9:47] Speaker 2: to young people is trying to get them to understand,
[9:50] Speaker 2: like making sure they understand the true intent of what
[9:54] Speaker 2: we're said, and also talking it out right, because sometimes
[9:58] Speaker 2: we make this huge assumption and the we're so white
[10:02] Speaker 2: and black about it just like, oh, then we're not
[10:04] Speaker 2: friends anymore and I don't like them, and starting this
[10:07] Speaker 2: huge conflict drift when it could be truthly a misunderstanding.
[10:12] Speaker 2: And so part of it is also like helping them
[10:14] Speaker 2: to kind of learn how to talk through things what
[10:18] Speaker 2: it's happening over text when lots of things to be
[10:21] Speaker 2: said or typed incorrectly that are not the intended purpus
[10:26] Speaker 2: of what the person who was sending it maybe have meant.
[10:29] Speaker 2: We could see that happen mm hmm.
[10:31] Speaker 1: And this feels like such a tall order because we know,
[10:33] Speaker 1: even as adults sometimes we struggle with the idea of
[10:36] Speaker 1: like being left out or like oh does she really
[10:38] Speaker 1: mean that right? And so how do we even help
[10:41] Speaker 1: kids when you know so much of their brain is
[10:43] Speaker 1: not even fully developed yet, Like how do we break
[10:46] Speaker 1: these kinds of things down when we know that friendship
[10:49] Speaker 1: and like comparison is so developmentally appropriate at this point?
[10:54] Speaker 1: Like what kinds of tips do you have for parents
[10:56] Speaker 1: around how they can even broach these kinds of conversations?
[10:59] Speaker 2: I think one having the conversation about like what friendship
[11:03] Speaker 2: means to them and who they want to be their
[11:05] Speaker 2: friends is so important because sometimes that particular person in
[11:09] Speaker 2: the group that's in that group chat that maybe they're
[11:12] Speaker 2: not included in is someone who they view as someone
[11:14] Speaker 2: they really want to be their friend. And so sometimes
[11:17] Speaker 2: it's ascertaining just why is it so important to them
[11:20] Speaker 2: to be included? What does it mean for them, or
[11:23] Speaker 2: what do they think it means if they're not included,
[11:25] Speaker 2: Because sometimes as adults we are quick to be like,
[11:28] Speaker 2: not that big of a deal, like there's lots of
[11:30] Speaker 2: other chats to be a part of, and it's just
[11:32] Speaker 2: this one chat, like that's how we can come off.
[11:35] Speaker 2: But in their world it might be super important for
[11:38] Speaker 2: whatever reason, and learning why it's important can then help
[11:42] Speaker 2: for us to then help them think through like, so
[11:44] Speaker 2: I see it's important for you. Is there a way
[11:47] Speaker 2: to either ask to be on the group chat or
[11:50] Speaker 2: connecting with someone who's on the chat to see why
[11:52] Speaker 2: you're not on the group chat? Or is that like, no,
[11:54] Speaker 2: you can't ask a part of it, like they'll because
[11:57] Speaker 2: depending on the friend group, it can go different ways.
[12:00] Speaker 2: And helping them also be able to say, like, is
[12:04] Speaker 2: not being on the friend group really meaning you're not
[12:06] Speaker 2: their friend? Could it be that this group met somewhere
[12:10] Speaker 2: and so their chat for because they met at that
[12:12] Speaker 2: one place at one time, and you're just not on
[12:15] Speaker 2: it because you weren't at that place. But that doesn't
[12:16] Speaker 2: mean you're not their friend. It just means that that
[12:19] Speaker 2: they had a particular interaction together and they formed a
[12:22] Speaker 2: group chat. And so I think it's helping them see
[12:25] Speaker 2: all the sides of possibilities and helping them to think
[12:28] Speaker 2: through it a little bit before making a huge assumption
[12:32] Speaker 2: about if they're friends or not, because I do think,
[12:35] Speaker 2: let's be honest, it feels harmful if you feel like
[12:39] Speaker 2: all your friends are on something and you're not, And
[12:41] Speaker 2: so I think it's important to validate and empathize with them,
[12:45] Speaker 2: but then also help them think through like all the
[12:48] Speaker 2: possible solutions or reasons as to why that could happen
[12:52] Speaker 2: and if truly it's because someone is trying to lead
[12:55] Speaker 2: them out, or maybe it's something that was you know,
[12:58] Speaker 2: an accident and they're not actually trying to to not
[13:00] Speaker 2: be their friend or something like that.
[13:02] Speaker 1: Mm hm. You know, doctor Annie, I'm sure you're familiar
[13:05] Speaker 1: with like all the research around like the concept of
[13:08] Speaker 1: relational aggression, right, and this is not anything new, right,
[13:11] Speaker 1: The idea of leaving people out purposely You're having a
[13:14] Speaker 1: party and like everybody in the class is invited except
[13:16] Speaker 1: this one person. And I know that that has always existed,
[13:20] Speaker 1: but I feel like it has taken on a different
[13:23] Speaker 1: level of intensity, probably because of technology. Can you speak
[13:27] Speaker 1: to relational aggression and how that maybe is that developmentally
[13:31] Speaker 1: appropriate or is this something we should really be talking
[13:33] Speaker 1: to our kids about, like how not to leave people out?
[13:36] Speaker 2: Gotcha? I think it's definitely, especially in middle school, something
[13:39] Speaker 2: to talk about, because I find that this is one
[13:42] Speaker 2: of those periods of time when that happens a lot,
[13:45] Speaker 2: And talking to our kids one about not leaving people out,
[13:49] Speaker 2: because if they have control over it, it's great when
[13:52] Speaker 2: they know it can be aware. But it's also true
[13:55] Speaker 2: that sometimes I think people feel that they'll have more
[13:58] Speaker 2: social influence power when someone is left out. Right, there's
[14:03] Speaker 2: something special about being the people that are included, And
[14:07] Speaker 2: I think talking to our kids about that is important
[14:09] Speaker 2: because leaving someone out is not necessarily making you or
[14:14] Speaker 2: your group any better, more powerful, popular, or any of
[14:18] Speaker 2: those things that I think sometimes they think can happen
[14:21] Speaker 2: by leaving someone out. And I also think that like
[14:25] Speaker 2: it is a form of aggression right, because that person
[14:29] Speaker 2: who's left out feels it knows they're being left out,
[14:33] Speaker 2: and all the whispering and secret taking that the kids
[14:37] Speaker 2: are doing is really harmful. So I do think it's
[14:39] Speaker 2: like making sure to have those conversations. But if your
[14:42] Speaker 2: child is the one that's left out, I definitely think
[14:45] Speaker 2: talking to them about it is important because you have
[14:48] Speaker 2: to empathize and relate with them, but also help them
[14:51] Speaker 2: understand that like, it's not them right. I think sometimes
[14:54] Speaker 2: you can be like, oh, what's wrong with me? Right?
[14:57] Speaker 2: When people don't want to invite you to the party,
[14:59] Speaker 2: but really they're leaving you out and that is on them,
[15:03] Speaker 2: right for whatever reason. And we don't want them to
[15:05] Speaker 2: take some kind of hit to their identity or their
[15:08] Speaker 2: self esteem because they're not included, And so we definitely
[15:11] Speaker 2: want to make sure we're checking in with them because
[15:14] Speaker 2: it can't happen that way. Especially in middle school, I
[15:16] Speaker 2: find that there's always like one person. It gets one person,
[15:20] Speaker 2: and so they try to get people in their groups
[15:23] Speaker 2: to not like this other person, and often that can
[15:26] Speaker 2: then lead to that relational aggression into leaving people out
[15:30] Speaker 2: and so figuring out how to dissolve that and get
[15:33] Speaker 2: beyond this whispering kind of thing that happens is really
[15:37] Speaker 2: really important.
[15:39] Speaker 1: So we haven't talked much, and I definitely want to
[15:41] Speaker 1: talk about where gaming fits into all of this. Right so,
[15:44] Speaker 1: we know that kids spend a lot of time on
[15:46] Speaker 1: video games, and for years this has been a topic
[15:49] Speaker 1: of concern for parents. Do you feel like gaming is
[15:52] Speaker 1: kind of just a normal developmental part of what's happening
[15:54] Speaker 1: with kids as a way to connect with one another,
[15:56] Speaker 1: or are there things we should be concerned about.
[15:59] Speaker 2: It's definitely so much as a part of their growing up.
[16:02] Speaker 2: I feel like eighty five percent we since stat the
[16:04] Speaker 2: show that kids aren't gaming right now, So it's natural
[16:07] Speaker 2: to think like it's normal and they should be like,
[16:10] Speaker 2: that's what most kids are doing, they are gaming, But
[16:12] Speaker 2: I think how they're gaming, we definitely need to talk
[16:15] Speaker 2: about it because I have had so many parents concerned
[16:18] Speaker 2: about what they're hearing their child talking about, talking to
[16:23] Speaker 2: the language that's coming out of their mouth at times
[16:26] Speaker 2: when they're gaming. And that is because when it's not
[16:29] Speaker 2: just your group of friends, but it's open to the
[16:31] Speaker 2: public and you're gemming with people nationally, you have no
[16:34] Speaker 2: idea who your child is talking to, and so they
[16:36] Speaker 2: might be like, Oh, this is my friend that's AX,
[16:39] Speaker 2: and he does this and likes this, but you really
[16:41] Speaker 2: have no idea who that person is. And oftentimes things
[16:45] Speaker 2: that they're being influenced to hear can be very not inappropriate.
[16:50] Speaker 2: And so all of a sudden, you hear overhear your
[16:52] Speaker 2: child saying some things that you're like, I don't talk
[16:55] Speaker 2: like this at my house, like you hear them talking
[16:58] Speaker 2: about it, and that's because they're hearing it being chatted
[17:01] Speaker 2: about during that gaming section. And so I think it's
[17:04] Speaker 2: important as parents to say, yes, video games is something
[17:08] Speaker 2: that lots of kids play, but there are different ways
[17:11] Speaker 2: to play them, and there's a social component to many
[17:14] Speaker 2: of these things. And with that social component, we have
[17:17] Speaker 2: to kind of understand and talk to our kids about
[17:19] Speaker 2: who they are talking to, how they play the game,
[17:22] Speaker 2: and what things we view as appropriate and not appropriate.
[17:25] Speaker 2: And so if these not appropriate things are happening, how
[17:28] Speaker 2: do we want them to handle those situations?
[17:32] Speaker 1: And so what are your suggestions in terms of kind
[17:34] Speaker 1: of guidelines to sit with six seventh eighth graders around
[17:39] Speaker 1: should they only really be playing with friends? When is
[17:42] Speaker 1: it okay to play with people across the world, like,
[17:45] Speaker 1: what are your suggestions there?
[17:47] Speaker 2: Honestly, I recommend all the time just playing with kids
[17:50] Speaker 2: they know because they're safety in that you know them,
[17:54] Speaker 2: you can bet their parents if something happens, then you
[17:57] Speaker 2: know who to contact as they get older. I think
[18:00] Speaker 2: if you want to do it publicly, you can. But
[18:03] Speaker 2: if you decide okay, yes, we're are going to allow
[18:05] Speaker 2: you to be open to the public, then parent co
[18:08] Speaker 2: watching and being there and allowing you to view what's
[18:12] Speaker 2: happening so it's not just happening on headphones. Like, I
[18:15] Speaker 2: think that there are some key things that need to
[18:18] Speaker 2: happen in order for that stage to happen. Because maybe
[18:21] Speaker 2: they're like none of my friends to play right now,
[18:22] Speaker 2: and I really want to play. It's like, okay, well,
[18:25] Speaker 2: if that's the case, then how do we make it
[18:27] Speaker 2: so that I'm aware of what's happening and you are
[18:31] Speaker 2: aware of what's safe and not saved, and so coming
[18:34] Speaker 2: up with some guidelines to kind of discuss what that
[18:36] Speaker 2: looks like. I think is really important. Having that type
[18:39] Speaker 2: of relationship with your child that you know they're going
[18:41] Speaker 2: to come to you and tell you this kind of
[18:44] Speaker 2: stuff I think is important because if you know that
[18:46] Speaker 2: your child is definitely not going to come tell you
[18:48] Speaker 2: and he's going to hide it from you, then you
[18:50] Speaker 2: might want to make the rules a little bit more
[18:51] Speaker 2: restricted versus a child who you know is going to
[18:54] Speaker 2: follow the rules and you're going to have that kind
[18:56] Speaker 2: of relationship, that open type of relationship where you can
[18:59] Speaker 2: kind of talk through something.
[19:00] Speaker 1: Those things more from our conversation after the break. So,
[19:12] Speaker 1: doctor Whitney, I love to hear your professional opinion here
[19:14] Speaker 1: because I think I struggle with this and I'm sure
[19:16] Speaker 1: other parents to struggle with, Like what is the line
[19:19] Speaker 1: between like you just mentioned like healthy monitoring, Like you
[19:23] Speaker 1: know that I'm paying attention, Like this is what parents
[19:26] Speaker 1: are doing, like I need to make sure that you're safe.
[19:28] Speaker 1: So what is the line between kind of like healthy
[19:30] Speaker 1: monitoring versus like surveillance that kind of erodes trust, right,
[19:36] Speaker 1: and for gaming, but also for like group chats and
[19:39] Speaker 1: like paying attention to their phones, Like how do you
[19:41] Speaker 1: walk that line in a way that lets them know like, hey,
[19:44] Speaker 1: I'm here, I'm paying attention versus I don't trust you,
[19:47] Speaker 1: and it's an erosion of the trust.
[19:49] Speaker 2: Yes, Oh, it's tricky because it also depends on the
[19:52] Speaker 2: child too, But I think it starts off at the
[19:56] Speaker 2: very beginning of when the device is allowed to have.
[20:00] Speaker 2: You have access to this device, Now, what rules are
[20:03] Speaker 2: we putting in place for you to have it, and
[20:05] Speaker 2: kind of setting up some things in the beginning or
[20:08] Speaker 2: regarding like what my role is the parent going to
[20:11] Speaker 2: be with you in this device, Like I'm going to
[20:14] Speaker 2: monitor it here and there. My goal is not to
[20:17] Speaker 2: necessarily be eavesdropping on on your friends, but I am
[20:20] Speaker 2: going to check it from here every once in a
[20:22] Speaker 2: while just to make sure things are on the up
[20:24] Speaker 2: and up, and like making it a non judgmental I'm
[20:27] Speaker 2: just wanting to be open to make sure that you're
[20:29] Speaker 2: safe and keeping it clear versus I think sometimes if
[20:33] Speaker 2: it's like I can see every chat that you say,
[20:36] Speaker 2: I'm asking you every question about everything everything that you write,
[20:41] Speaker 2: can make them secretive to be honest with you, and
[20:44] Speaker 2: so I think it is an important line to carry
[20:48] Speaker 2: that you're saying, like I'm going to check in with you.
[20:52] Speaker 2: I want to have honest conversations about what you're doing
[20:54] Speaker 2: on your phone or online, what you like, show me
[20:58] Speaker 2: what you like, show me why you like it. All
[21:00] Speaker 2: of those types of questions and interactions I think can
[21:03] Speaker 2: be way more helpful than this like policing it, because
[21:08] Speaker 2: I find that the policing it structure can often cause
[21:12] Speaker 2: them to not be honest, and that's the key. We
[21:15] Speaker 2: really do want them to be honest about what's happening.
[21:17] Speaker 2: And I think our reactions to what they share with
[21:20] Speaker 2: us is really key to that too, because if we
[21:23] Speaker 2: respond in a why would you do this? So I
[21:27] Speaker 2: can't believe you did that, or like those kinds of things, right,
[21:31] Speaker 2: they're taking cues about what they're not going to share
[21:33] Speaker 2: with us next time, and so we have to kind
[21:35] Speaker 2: of be really intentional about our reactions but also giving
[21:40] Speaker 2: their ways to say like what's safe, what's not safe,
[21:44] Speaker 2: what's too much information? How do you make sure you
[21:47] Speaker 2: keep your privacy online? And so like all these types
[21:50] Speaker 2: of conversations need to be ongoing. So like, yes, this
[21:54] Speaker 2: is not a one time kind of conversation, but it's
[21:56] Speaker 2: something that should be happening frequently as a part of
[22:00] Speaker 2: packing in on it. So I think all of that
[22:02] Speaker 2: needs to happen. And so I think that's how you
[22:04] Speaker 2: tell the line is is that we built in conversations
[22:08] Speaker 2: on the device, and how you're using them. How it's
[22:10] Speaker 2: impacted you. Do you feel like you need to be
[22:12] Speaker 2: on the game all the time? Why is that? I
[22:15] Speaker 2: noticed that you are cranky when I tell you it's
[22:17] Speaker 2: time to get off the game. That's a little bit
[22:21] Speaker 2: concerning for me. I don't want something to be so
[22:25] Speaker 2: that much in your life that you can't do other things. Right,
[22:28] Speaker 2: Let's have some conversations doing it that way could go
[22:31] Speaker 2: a long way versus just no more or coming down
[22:36] Speaker 2: hard where you're checking every single little thing.
[22:39] Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So really kind of approaching things with a
[22:41] Speaker 1: spirit of curiosity as opposed to judglemen as you've mentioned. Yeah, yeah,
[22:46] Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate you talking about like the importance
[22:48] Speaker 1: of having conversations around like privacy andself. So something that
[22:51] Speaker 1: I did not realize was a thing, but that very
[22:54] Speaker 1: much is a thing, I think, and you can let
[22:55] Speaker 1: me know at least from my son's friend group is
[22:58] Speaker 1: location sharing. So they like all want to like share location,
[23:02] Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait a minute, and like why does
[23:05] Speaker 1: anybody and you can't drive, Like why do your friends
[23:08] Speaker 1: need your location? It has it been your experience?
[23:11] Speaker 2: And that is something that school is new. This is newer,
[23:15] Speaker 2: but I've noticed it more. It's like keeping tablat or friends.
[23:19] Speaker 2: But you have to kind of understand, like friendships change
[23:21] Speaker 2: over time, and like having someone access every part of
[23:27] Speaker 2: you is a little much, right, And so I do
[23:29] Speaker 2: think like having those conversations with your kids about like, well,
[23:33] Speaker 2: why would we want our friends to know everything about them,
[23:36] Speaker 2: like and where they are, Like you're both at school,
[23:38] Speaker 2: then you're both at school. But I think there's this
[23:41] Speaker 2: new thing about like it's just another way of like
[23:43] Speaker 2: sharing like information. I understand why they want that, but like,
[23:48] Speaker 2: I do think we need to teach some boundaries because
[23:50] Speaker 2: we do not need our kids telling every aspect of
[23:53] Speaker 2: our lives to everyone, And we have to teach them boundaries, right,
[23:57] Speaker 2: Like there's this thing with being online where it's that
[24:00] Speaker 2: twenty for seven almost information sharing, and it's overwhelming and
[24:05] Speaker 2: if you're not careful, you can blur the lines of
[24:09] Speaker 2: these boundaries and before you know it, you're exposing too
[24:12] Speaker 2: much of yourself to people. And so I think teaching
[24:15] Speaker 2: what a healthy boundary is with friends is important, especially
[24:20] Speaker 2: when they're online and you're taking them home with you
[24:23] Speaker 2: a little bit. You will need to be talking about
[24:25] Speaker 2: what things we talk about what things we share and
[24:27] Speaker 2: don't share.
[24:29] Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean those were conversations we were always
[24:31] Speaker 1: having with kids, right, But I think the digital stuff
[24:34] Speaker 1: as another layer to the conversations like, oh, we got
[24:37] Speaker 1: to talk about like boundary setting in this space.
[24:39] Speaker 2: Also, yeah, in work each device, right, because the devices
[24:44] Speaker 2: and how they work and what information you share is different.
[24:47] Speaker 2: And so I think it's really important that we really
[24:50] Speaker 2: talk about if they're on gaming, if they're on social media,
[24:54] Speaker 2: if they use it, any of those types of things,
[24:56] Speaker 2: we have to be talking about privacy and boundaries for
[24:59] Speaker 2: all of them those things.
[25:00] Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So the Anolescent Brain Cognitive Development Study, the
[25:05] Speaker 1: largest long term study of brain development in US kids
[25:08] Speaker 1: run by the ni AGE, has tracked this exact age
[25:11] Speaker 1: group ages nine to fifteen and found that heavier screen
[25:14] Speaker 1: and social media use is associated with worse mental and
[25:18] Speaker 1: physical health outcomes over time. What do you feel like
[25:21] Speaker 1: this large scale kind of launcher to know data as
[25:25] Speaker 1: to what you see in your kind of day to
[25:27] Speaker 1: day clinical practice.
[25:28] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is the kids who I see
[25:31] Speaker 2: are not doing as well. Is the kids who are
[25:34] Speaker 2: on the devices a lot longer than the other ones.
[25:38] Speaker 2: So when they're on it all day and they're not
[25:41] Speaker 2: doing in person things with friends. They're not doing sports
[25:47] Speaker 2: or getting out and having other activities that they like,
[25:50] Speaker 2: and the electronics are their knowing focus of their day.
[25:55] Speaker 2: That's when I start to see declines in anxiety and
[25:58] Speaker 2: I see more depression isolation. Right. I know, we think
[26:02] Speaker 2: social media and connection, and it's true that it can
[26:04] Speaker 2: help us connect, but the more you're on it and
[26:07] Speaker 2: you're not connecting in real life, I do start to
[26:11] Speaker 2: see that decline in that feeling of connectedness, and so
[26:18] Speaker 2: I do see that report of loneliness and feeling isolated.
[26:22] Speaker 2: And so that's where I think the harms of mental
[26:24] Speaker 2: health I see happen more and more. And so I
[26:26] Speaker 2: think it's that teaching the balance part that's so important,
[26:31] Speaker 2: because when you tell me like, oh, it's summer vacation,
[26:34] Speaker 2: that's when I start to get really worried, because when
[26:36] Speaker 2: you don't have things to do during the summer, that
[26:40] Speaker 2: we start to rely so much on technology, and that's
[26:45] Speaker 2: when I start to see this decline in mental health
[26:48] Speaker 2: because we're not doing enough other things throughout the day.
[26:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and it feels like there is an
[26:54] Speaker 1: added concern because now so much technology is involved even
[26:58] Speaker 1: in instruction right during the school year, so like there
[27:02] Speaker 1: are very few like paper textbooks anymore, Like the whole
[27:04] Speaker 1: textbook is online, even from math, which is like very
[27:07] Speaker 1: odd to me. So is there that same concern with
[27:10] Speaker 1: like just you may not be using the device for
[27:13] Speaker 1: something like connecting on social media and kind of you know,
[27:15] Speaker 1: the relational aggression port, but they're still connected to a
[27:18] Speaker 1: device even if it is for instruction. Are there concerns
[27:21] Speaker 1: around even adding that as another layer of being exposed
[27:25] Speaker 1: to digital devices? I think it does add to the
[27:28] Speaker 1: total time that you're all like, So like, I don't
[27:30] Speaker 1: think it is as necessarily as harmful. It doesn't have
[27:33] Speaker 1: as many risks as the other times may have. But
[27:36] Speaker 1: I think one that's the differ, Like, not all kids
[27:40] Speaker 1: learn in the same way, and so I think it's
[27:42] Speaker 1: important for parents to understand how their kids are learning,
[27:45] Speaker 1: if this is helpful or not helpful for them, because
[27:47] Speaker 1: there are certain kids who learn in different ways and modalities,
[27:50] Speaker 1: and so to check in on how they're doing.
[27:52] Speaker 2: But we know that in general, educational screen time is
[27:55] Speaker 2: typically better than that non educational time. But do you
[28:00] Speaker 2: think if you are on a screen all day when
[28:03] Speaker 2: you come home, your brain probably still needs a break, right,
[28:07] Speaker 2: And so I do think even though it might be
[28:09] Speaker 2: from leisure, we still have to add that total time
[28:12] Speaker 2: in there, and we want them to have breaks away
[28:14] Speaker 2: from the screen doing other things. It's just our bodies,
[28:18] Speaker 2: our brains need breaks from it. And so that's why
[28:22] Speaker 2: I say the total time is adding up, and so
[28:24] Speaker 2: we need to kind of consider like when does your
[28:27] Speaker 2: brain get a break from the screen and when are
[28:29] Speaker 2: you doing other things? And I think is important for
[28:30] Speaker 2: parents to beend there.
[28:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, and our eyes, right, I mean I know this
[28:34] Speaker 1: is not either of our specialty, but my own eye
[28:37] Speaker 1: doctor has talked about like how much where's your vision
[28:39] Speaker 1: gets because we are spending so much time on screens.
[28:42] Speaker 2: Yeah, eyes in your physical help, right, just like if
[28:46] Speaker 2: you're not moving your body enough. And I've heard from
[28:48] Speaker 2: different kids like literally talking about different body pains and
[28:52] Speaker 2: aches because they're not moving. And I'm like, you're too
[28:54] Speaker 2: young for this type of thing, and that's just because
[28:58] Speaker 2: you're not moving enough.
[29:00] Speaker 1: So you mentioned already you gave the example of maybe
[29:03] Speaker 1: a parent who when the tail the kid is time
[29:05] Speaker 1: to put the game down. It always erupts into a fight.
[29:08] Speaker 1: And I think that this is probably a very familiar story, right,
[29:11] Speaker 1: every time you are talking about the devices, it ends
[29:14] Speaker 1: up in a fight. Can you share maybe what might
[29:16] Speaker 1: be going wrong in the communication. If every time you
[29:19] Speaker 1: try to set a boundary around screens and stuff it
[29:23] Speaker 1: ends in a fight, what might be happening there?
[29:25] Speaker 2: So one, I think there's always when I think of
[29:28] Speaker 2: a behavior we don't like, there's the antecedents, right, like,
[29:30] Speaker 2: what do we set up beforehand to make it go well? Right?
[29:33] Speaker 2: And so we really want to be clear about what
[29:36] Speaker 2: the rules are in your house. But they know that
[29:38] Speaker 2: when you say that it's time to get off the
[29:40] Speaker 2: go it's actually time to get off, you have the
[29:43] Speaker 2: expectation that they are going to get off or what
[29:45] Speaker 2: that looks like. And so that is something to think about.
[29:48] Speaker 2: But also giving a warning. So, for instance, if you
[29:51] Speaker 2: tell a kid it's time to get off a game
[29:52] Speaker 2: and they're in the middle of a level on a
[29:54] Speaker 2: game and you have to stop, and you're going to
[29:56] Speaker 2: die and all this work you just did, like you
[29:59] Speaker 2: are going to ge an irritable kid, right, And so
[30:02] Speaker 2: there are ways to give like okay, when you're done
[30:04] Speaker 2: with this level or away for them to time it
[30:08] Speaker 2: so that it can go well. So there's things that
[30:09] Speaker 2: we can do on the fright end to make sure
[30:11] Speaker 2: that there's communication about like how the game works, when
[30:16] Speaker 2: is a good amount of time on the game for
[30:18] Speaker 2: you and the child that you think is reasonable, and
[30:21] Speaker 2: how it looks to come off. But then they have
[30:24] Speaker 2: to come off the game. And so if for whatever
[30:27] Speaker 2: reason now they're irritable and we've done these other things,
[30:30] Speaker 2: one thing that then have a conversation about is it
[30:33] Speaker 2: becoming too important for them? Right? Like are there not
[30:37] Speaker 2: other things in their life that they do that they
[30:39] Speaker 2: enjoy that they can do when they don't have the
[30:42] Speaker 2: gaming system. And so part of it having that conversation
[30:45] Speaker 2: is that, like, if I notice that, like you can't
[30:49] Speaker 2: get off of this, that means we might be spending
[30:51] Speaker 2: too much time on it or it's becoming too big
[30:53] Speaker 2: for us, and we need to think about a list
[30:56] Speaker 2: of other things that we want to get involved in
[30:59] Speaker 2: or try to do that can be really helpful. And
[31:01] Speaker 2: there have to be some kind of consequence right regarding
[31:05] Speaker 2: not getting off if that is what the expectation is.
[31:09] Speaker 2: And so I always say, right, there needs to be
[31:11] Speaker 2: conversation on going about this, because a one time irritable
[31:16] Speaker 2: is not like we need to change the whole plan.
[31:19] Speaker 2: But I really encourage families to have family plans about
[31:22] Speaker 2: all gaming systems and how they work, because if we
[31:26] Speaker 2: don't have a plan in place, then it can easily
[31:32] Speaker 2: be that the child spends way too much time on
[31:34] Speaker 2: it right, way more than we want them to, because
[31:36] Speaker 2: we've lost track of time, we're overdoing what we're trying
[31:39] Speaker 2: to do, and we don't even realize how long they've
[31:41] Speaker 2: been on it. And so having a family plan says, hey,
[31:45] Speaker 2: we put this family plan in place, this is what
[31:48] Speaker 2: the expectations are for it, this is how you need
[31:51] Speaker 2: to be doing. But also here are some other things
[31:53] Speaker 2: you can do instead of when your time is up
[31:56] Speaker 2: and you're needing to go to a different device. But
[31:59] Speaker 2: also so if it's happening all the time and the
[32:01] Speaker 2: outbursts are getting really big, that might mean how we
[32:05] Speaker 2: need to have a deeper conversation because maybe something else
[32:08] Speaker 2: is going on than just the game itself, and we
[32:11] Speaker 2: need to be thinking about like what those other things
[32:14] Speaker 2: could be, like a mood concern or something else that
[32:16] Speaker 2: we need to kind of talk about.
[32:19] Speaker 1: You know, I would imagine there may be somebody who
[32:21] Speaker 1: is listening to our conversation and feeling like, oh my gosh,
[32:24] Speaker 1: I have gone way too far on the other end, right,
[32:26] Speaker 1: Like maybe I gave them unrestricted access to the device
[32:29] Speaker 1: and I didn't have these conversations, And now I'm listening
[32:31] Speaker 1: to you and I feel like I need to really
[32:33] Speaker 1: back in. Where are some reasonable places to start without
[32:37] Speaker 1: it maybe feeling punitive if you realize, Okay, I need
[32:40] Speaker 1: to put some kind of boundaries in place with my child.
[32:43] Speaker 2: I think starting off with a family conversation and sound
[32:47] Speaker 2: like the truth is us as adult grew on our
[32:49] Speaker 2: electronics too much, too right, So I think it's perfectly
[32:54] Speaker 2: healthy to have a conversation where we all talk about
[32:56] Speaker 2: how we're all on our electronics too much and what
[32:59] Speaker 2: we want to do as a family to recenter ourselves
[33:03] Speaker 2: a little bit, to make sure that the screens aren't
[33:05] Speaker 2: driving everything that we do, and what does that look
[33:07] Speaker 2: like for the parents, because you got to model it.
[33:09] Speaker 2: It is very hard for you to tell your kids, Okay,
[33:11] Speaker 2: don't be on your phone this all the time, and
[33:13] Speaker 2: don't do and then there you are at the table
[33:16] Speaker 2: on your phone right, And so I think having that
[33:19] Speaker 2: conversation as a family is so important, and then determining
[33:24] Speaker 2: what it looks like to have good boundaries and phone
[33:27] Speaker 2: usage as a family, Like what does that look like?
[33:30] Speaker 2: And see what they say believe it or not. The
[33:32] Speaker 2: most I've heard in therapy sometimes is for kids suggesting
[33:36] Speaker 2: they need their own breaks before I even bring it up, right.
[33:40] Speaker 2: I have had them being like, I think I need
[33:42] Speaker 2: a break from social media or something because I can
[33:45] Speaker 2: tell it, and like, having those conversations are really important.
[33:49] Speaker 2: So like I think bringing it up and say, listen,
[33:53] Speaker 2: you know what we have kind of just let everybody
[33:55] Speaker 2: do their own thing. And I've noticed that we're all
[33:57] Speaker 2: on our screens a lot. What is the way that
[34:00] Speaker 2: we can kind of reel it in a little bit,
[34:03] Speaker 2: come up with some boundaries around it, and then what
[34:06] Speaker 2: are some other things as a family we want to do,
[34:08] Speaker 2: Because I think just taking it away and not generating
[34:11] Speaker 2: a list of possibilities means you're often going to default
[34:15] Speaker 2: back to the screen because you haven't really thought through
[34:17] Speaker 2: it enough. And so I think it's important to really
[34:20] Speaker 2: make sure you have a list of other things that
[34:23] Speaker 2: they can do that's going to make it more successful.
[34:26] Speaker 2: I will say that, like, you can start small right.
[34:28] Speaker 2: Sometimes it's like we're gonna do thirty minutes of family
[34:31] Speaker 2: time every day, and that's where we're gonna start, right.
[34:36] Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a huge thing at first,
[34:38] Speaker 2: but then I'm hopeful that you'll notice the joys of
[34:42] Speaker 2: what it's like to be off the spring that it
[34:45] Speaker 2: naturally then makes it easier to restrict it a little
[34:48] Speaker 2: bit more. But I can tell you that going from
[34:51] Speaker 2: full access to trying to limit can be really difficult.
[34:55] Speaker 2: And so that's why I do say starting off with
[34:57] Speaker 2: the conversations where the kids can honestly say what they
[35:01] Speaker 2: think is reasonable, because for the most part, I've noticed
[35:04] Speaker 2: that they are able to give pretty good answers for
[35:06] Speaker 2: that and can be reasonable where you can kind of
[35:09] Speaker 2: compromise and come up with something that both can agree upon.
[35:13] Speaker 1: So we spend a lot of time talking about kind
[35:15] Speaker 1: of more traditional kind of digital stuff.
[35:17] Speaker 2: But there is a new player in the space in
[35:20] Speaker 2: terms of AI.
[35:21] Speaker 1: Right, are you already having conversations with clients and families
[35:25] Speaker 1: in your practice around how AI is impacting middle schoolers
[35:29] Speaker 1: and you know what kinds of things they're actually doing
[35:31] Speaker 1: with AI.
[35:32] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we all need to because as and
[35:36] Speaker 2: so it's been built into so much of our life
[35:39] Speaker 2: and so in simple ways we talk to Alexis, when
[35:42] Speaker 2: we talk to Siri, those kinds of things. But now
[35:44] Speaker 2: you can have a companion, right if you want to.
[35:48] Speaker 2: And it can start off so easily, right like asking
[35:51] Speaker 2: about math question, and then it grows into more because
[35:56] Speaker 2: the way the algorithm works is it's learning you and
[35:59] Speaker 2: it's very pirmative. And so we have to be able
[36:02] Speaker 2: to talk to our kids about that because they're going
[36:06] Speaker 2: to come upon it and start using it, and if
[36:09] Speaker 2: we don't talk about it and share with them, like
[36:13] Speaker 2: I understand on how this works and that you're going
[36:15] Speaker 2: to be exposed to it and this is how people
[36:17] Speaker 2: use it, and talk to them about how they plan
[36:20] Speaker 2: on using it and what they should use it for
[36:23] Speaker 2: and what things that they should be weary of using
[36:26] Speaker 2: it for, Like those things need to happen because if
[36:29] Speaker 2: we don't share that information, they're just naturally just start
[36:34] Speaker 2: doing more and more things with it. And that's when
[36:36] Speaker 2: I think the harms can come into it, because the
[36:39] Speaker 2: algorithm is not thinking about your child's safety, right, The
[36:43] Speaker 2: AI algorithm is thinking about how can I engage you more?
[36:46] Speaker 2: And so I just think it's really really important for
[36:49] Speaker 2: us to have that conversation early about how it works,
[36:53] Speaker 2: the dangers of it, what kind of conversations they're having,
[36:57] Speaker 2: and continue to have the conversations over and over again
[36:59] Speaker 2: to try again m hm.
[37:01] Speaker 1: More from our conversation. After the break, you know, there's
[37:13] Speaker 1: been more research kind of coming out and it's still
[37:15] Speaker 1: very early days, right, is AI kind of proliferates more
[37:18] Speaker 1: of our lives around like critical thinking and like how
[37:21] Speaker 1: kids are turning to this, like you said, like maybe
[37:23] Speaker 1: you think it's like just help with the man homework,
[37:25] Speaker 1: but then it becomes like, oh, write this paper for me, right,
[37:28] Speaker 1: And so research coming out talking about the decline and
[37:32] Speaker 1: like critical thinking and like really establishing that. But we
[37:34] Speaker 1: know this is an age where that's what is supposed
[37:37] Speaker 1: to be happening. So what kinds of conversations can we
[37:40] Speaker 1: be having and what should we be paying attention for in
[37:43] Speaker 1: terms of making sure that kids are not over relying
[37:45] Speaker 1: on AI or something like that.
[37:47] Speaker 2: I think it's really important to talk about it is
[37:50] Speaker 2: supposed to make our lives easier, right, and so like
[37:53] Speaker 2: our instincts are subduing the easiest thing, right, the easiest thing,
[37:56] Speaker 2: but the easiest thing is not actually the best thing
[37:58] Speaker 2: for us all the time. It really get in the
[38:00] Speaker 2: way of us learning and getting us writing for the
[38:04] Speaker 2: next step. And so I think it's important to talk
[38:06] Speaker 2: to our kids about why we have to go through
[38:09] Speaker 2: certain steps in order to get us ready. If we
[38:11] Speaker 2: rely on AI to write our paper, right, we did
[38:15] Speaker 2: not learn how to then write the paper we get
[38:17] Speaker 2: out of practice. And so in college or when you're
[38:22] Speaker 2: in your job later on and you need to write
[38:24] Speaker 2: something and know if it's good or not. If you
[38:27] Speaker 2: don't have practice actually doing that, you won't know. And
[38:31] Speaker 2: so I think it's important to teach them. Like I
[38:33] Speaker 2: know it's easy to try to use the chat box right,
[38:37] Speaker 2: but I want you to learn how to do it
[38:40] Speaker 2: for your own good. Like the process of learning how
[38:45] Speaker 2: to write a paper and to make a good paper
[38:48] Speaker 2: is going to help you in the law run. And
[38:51] Speaker 2: believe it or not, like they're not that good at
[38:54] Speaker 2: writing the papers. They're okay, but there are so weaknesses.
[38:58] Speaker 2: And if you don't know how to read and understand
[39:01] Speaker 2: what a good paper versus the bad paper is, you're
[39:04] Speaker 2: going to set yourself up for not getting the brains
[39:07] Speaker 2: you want to get, and so I would hate for
[39:09] Speaker 2: them to not learn how to do the heavy stuff.
[39:13] Speaker 2: And so part of it is teaching our kids, like
[39:16] Speaker 2: what is important for you in the long run? Right,
[39:19] Speaker 2: what is your long term goal? Why do you think
[39:21] Speaker 2: the teacher assigning you this paper? Right, it's in order
[39:24] Speaker 2: for you to learn how to compare two things or
[39:27] Speaker 2: to make a good argument. And if you aren't doing that,
[39:30] Speaker 2: then you are not practicing it and therefore are not
[39:33] Speaker 2: learning how to do it, and therefore are not getting
[39:36] Speaker 2: the skill that the teachers and we as the parents
[39:38] Speaker 2: are hoping that they learn. And so kind of teaching
[39:41] Speaker 2: them or walking through that I think is important because
[39:44] Speaker 2: problem solving is so key. It starts off little, like
[39:48] Speaker 2: I have a three year old, so we're letting him
[39:50] Speaker 2: problem solve a little bit now, But as they get older,
[39:53] Speaker 2: more and more problem solving happens. As to the point
[39:56] Speaker 2: you're adulting, and all you do it feels like it's
[39:59] Speaker 2: solved problems. You want to have practice, be able to
[40:03] Speaker 2: ascertain what's good or bad, like the different solutions all
[40:08] Speaker 2: these different things, and you don't want to be relied
[40:10] Speaker 2: on needed to chat something to help you make decisions.
[40:15] Speaker 2: You should be able to have your life experience and
[40:18] Speaker 2: people in your life that can help you solve those things.
[40:21] Speaker 2: And so I think it's really important to kind of
[40:23] Speaker 2: have those conversations with our kids about like why we
[40:26] Speaker 2: don't want them rely on it and what they needed
[40:29] Speaker 2: a long term to be successful.
[40:32] Speaker 1: Yeah, and even beyond like the critical thinking and the
[40:35] Speaker 1: educational components. We also know that there have been instances
[40:39] Speaker 1: where kids are using this for mental health support right,
[40:41] Speaker 1: and sadly have had some tragic stories of kids taking
[40:45] Speaker 1: their lives after using a chat bot. Y. So what
[40:48] Speaker 1: kinds of suggestions would you give to parents around making
[40:51] Speaker 1: sure they're paying attention to how kids are using AI,
[40:55] Speaker 1: maybe even for emotional support.
[40:57] Speaker 2: Yeah. I think number one is pangative to their friendships
[41:01] Speaker 2: in general, making sure you know who their friends are
[41:04] Speaker 2: or if they're struggling to make friends, because oftentimes I
[41:07] Speaker 2: think if they're not having good relationships in real life,
[41:12] Speaker 2: then that's when they can often turn to that more
[41:15] Speaker 2: AI kind of companion to answer those types of questions.
[41:20] Speaker 2: But also having those questions about how you use the AI.
[41:23] Speaker 2: So if they're saying, like, well, I ask them about
[41:26] Speaker 2: friend questions or I ask them what I should do.
[41:28] Speaker 2: Those things should be kind of like little red flags like, oh,
[41:32] Speaker 2: that's interesting that you decided to go to that source
[41:35] Speaker 2: for that type of question. But then especially when you
[41:38] Speaker 2: see your child having signs of like anxiety, depression, isolating
[41:43] Speaker 2: more not being who they usually are, those are really
[41:47] Speaker 2: concerning warning flags that like, we wouldn't want them relying
[41:52] Speaker 2: on AI to help them manage stress. And here's the thing.
[41:56] Speaker 2: Kids are stressed, and I think as adults we have
[41:58] Speaker 2: to really like because sometimes I hear from parents all
[42:01] Speaker 2: the time like what do they not have to stress out?
[42:03] Speaker 2: And I'm like, a lot. They have a lot to
[42:06] Speaker 2: be stressed about and they are looking for things. And
[42:10] Speaker 2: the thing about it is if not taught how to
[42:14] Speaker 2: do it and have those conversations with us on managing it,
[42:17] Speaker 2: then they will go to their friends or they will
[42:20] Speaker 2: go to the wrong, maladaptive types of things to try
[42:23] Speaker 2: to manage their stress. And so I think it's really
[42:26] Speaker 2: important for us to have those conversations with our kids
[42:29] Speaker 2: about how they feel stressed, what stresses them out, Like
[42:33] Speaker 2: when they're stressed, what do they want to do or
[42:35] Speaker 2: how do they manage it what do they need help with, Like,
[42:38] Speaker 2: have those real kinds of conversations and what they're doing,
[42:41] Speaker 2: is it working or not? Because if it's not working,
[42:44] Speaker 2: then that means we need to help them find better
[42:46] Speaker 2: coping strategies to manage the stress, because we don't want
[42:50] Speaker 2: them relying on chat chiev tea or some other companion
[42:56] Speaker 2: to give them the answer because we know that those
[42:59] Speaker 2: are not necessarily goings and be giving them the experts
[43:03] Speaker 2: qualified answer and we want them talk into a human
[43:06] Speaker 2: when they're talking about those different kinds of level of
[43:09] Speaker 2: mental health concerns or structures they may be experienced.
[43:13] Speaker 1: Doctor Whitney, do you feel like there are any particular
[43:16] Speaker 1: concerns for black teens and preteens given what we know
[43:19] Speaker 1: about algorithmic bias? Right, Like we know that there tends
[43:22] Speaker 1: to be racism frinkled into all of the things and
[43:25] Speaker 1: the kinds of information that we are shown. Are their
[43:27] Speaker 1: particular concerns related to this, especially for black kids because like, in.
[43:32] Speaker 2: Some ways, I like research has shown that social media
[43:34] Speaker 2: could be really great for black and brown kids because
[43:38] Speaker 2: it can often share with you information that maybe your
[43:41] Speaker 2: local media isn't showing you all the truth and in
[43:43] Speaker 2: some ways, it can give you accurate information. But if
[43:47] Speaker 2: we're talking and I too, and I was just pulling
[43:50] Speaker 2: from different sources, and they can be anything, right, and
[43:53] Speaker 2: they can be racist, and they can be unfounded. And
[43:55] Speaker 2: so we really have to make sure that we talk
[43:58] Speaker 2: to our kids about just because and I put it
[44:01] Speaker 2: up on your screen to tell you these things, you
[44:03] Speaker 2: have to look at the sources and they can be
[44:05] Speaker 2: very much built upon some racist idea, right, And so
[44:11] Speaker 2: teaching our kids those things I think is important because
[44:14] Speaker 2: the truth of the matter is that when you are aligned,
[44:17] Speaker 2: you are putting yourself out there to be exposed to people.
[44:21] Speaker 2: And in general, people can be racist. That's just the
[44:25] Speaker 2: fact of the matter, and you're going to see things
[44:27] Speaker 2: that can be harmful. And teaching our kids like when
[44:32] Speaker 2: they see those things, like what it is, how to
[44:36] Speaker 2: deal with it, how does it make them feel? Processing it,
[44:38] Speaker 2: not just absorbing it and holding it on, like all
[44:41] Speaker 2: those things God has to be talked about. But I
[44:44] Speaker 2: do think that it does put them at risk because
[44:47] Speaker 2: the algorithm can pull from anything, and there's a lot
[44:50] Speaker 2: of racist things out there online for them to pull from.
[44:53] Speaker 2: So we definitely have to have those conversations about the
[44:56] Speaker 2: harms because yes, it can be helpful, but there can
[44:59] Speaker 2: be time what it doesn't pull the right information, and
[45:02] Speaker 2: it can be harmful to us as well.
[45:05] Speaker 1: You already mentioned that kids are very stressed, and I
[45:07] Speaker 1: really appreciate you sharing that, right, because I think that
[45:09] Speaker 1: sounds like something I would say, like, oh, what do
[45:10] Speaker 1: you have to be stressed about?
[45:12] Speaker 2: Right?
[45:12] Speaker 1: But you're right, Like even all the things that we've
[45:14] Speaker 1: talked about, it's a lot for young people to navigate
[45:17] Speaker 1: in this world that look very different than even maybe
[45:19] Speaker 1: what we as their parents had to navigate. So what
[45:21] Speaker 1: are some of the building blocks of like building emotional
[45:24] Speaker 1: resilience for kids that we can work on with them
[45:27] Speaker 1: as a parent.
[45:28] Speaker 2: First of all, you, the parent, are a huge building block.
[45:31] Speaker 2: You yourself, right. I have to remind parents sometimes because
[45:35] Speaker 2: especially in the teenage years, when the kids feel like
[45:38] Speaker 2: they would have nothing to do with you, that's not
[45:40] Speaker 2: necessarily true. Okay, They still value very much your praise,
[45:45] Speaker 2: your encouragement, your opinions, even though you might get a
[45:49] Speaker 2: roll of eyes or something like that. Like I'm telling you, like,
[45:52] Speaker 2: having trusted adults in a kid's life is so important,
[45:56] Speaker 2: especially for black and Brown youth, that network size can
[46:00] Speaker 2: be so important, and so thinking about for our youth,
[46:03] Speaker 2: what are we doing to build their community I think
[46:05] Speaker 2: is so important when we're talking about resilience. And then
[46:09] Speaker 2: the other thing to think about is we want to
[46:11] Speaker 2: make sure that they have good routines, schedules, those kinds
[46:16] Speaker 2: of things that we know can be really helpful in
[46:18] Speaker 2: your just day to day and mental wellness, right, like
[46:21] Speaker 2: you know what to expect and where you're going and
[46:24] Speaker 2: thought through those things. Those things are important. But then
[46:26] Speaker 2: problem solving. Teaching our kids the problem solve I think
[46:29] Speaker 2: is so very important. How do you have a short
[46:33] Speaker 2: term goal and then make it a long term goal?
[46:36] Speaker 2: How do you make sure that it's measurable and you
[46:38] Speaker 2: can attain it when you're struggling with something, Who do
[46:41] Speaker 2: you go to? Like having conversations about those kinds of
[46:44] Speaker 2: things and not everything you want to have happen is
[46:48] Speaker 2: going to work out the way that you want it to.
[46:51] Speaker 2: And helping our kids manage that, right, the disappointments of
[46:54] Speaker 2: life to talk through them and to understand, okay, what's
[46:59] Speaker 2: planned when plan A doesn't work and being okay with
[47:03] Speaker 2: that and maaleable when life isn't going the way you
[47:06] Speaker 2: want is so important because I think if we allow
[47:10] Speaker 2: everything our kid wants to happen exactly like, it's just
[47:13] Speaker 2: not the way the world works. And so we want
[47:16] Speaker 2: to prepare them for those things. We need to have
[47:19] Speaker 2: those conversations. We need to prepare them to deal with
[47:24] Speaker 2: hard things. You're not always going to get along with
[47:26] Speaker 2: your friends. There's gonna be times when they're gonna want
[47:30] Speaker 2: to do something, you're gonna want to do something, or
[47:32] Speaker 2: you have conflict. How do you manage that? Let's talk
[47:35] Speaker 2: through managing conflict in that household. We should be modeling
[47:38] Speaker 2: how to do it, because in the real world, you're
[47:41] Speaker 2: gonna face it. There might be times where people don't
[47:43] Speaker 2: like you. How do you deal with that and still
[47:47] Speaker 2: be the best you? Right? And especially even online, there
[47:51] Speaker 2: are times where people might say something mean about your post.
[47:55] Speaker 2: They don't get it, they're being mean to you. And
[47:57] Speaker 2: I think it's so important for us to be ahead
[48:01] Speaker 2: of it with our kids, to have those conversations and
[48:04] Speaker 2: to be that non judgmental force for them to know
[48:08] Speaker 2: that when they're encountering something, they can come to you
[48:12] Speaker 2: and talk it out with you. And the key with
[48:14] Speaker 2: those conversations is we talk to them, but we let
[48:19] Speaker 2: them talk and we do a lot more listening, which
[48:22] Speaker 2: I think can be so hard because sometimes we just
[48:24] Speaker 2: want to give them the answer, but then say, like,
[48:26] Speaker 2: what do you think would be the best thing to
[48:28] Speaker 2: do next? Put it back on them, what are they thinking?
[48:32] Speaker 2: Helping them to learn that process of problem solving, I
[48:35] Speaker 2: think it's key. And then saying Okay, I hear you,
[48:38] Speaker 2: can I give you some suggestions. Asking for that can
[48:41] Speaker 2: be really really helpful, but I think it's key into
[48:43] Speaker 2: building resilience for them. Is that. And then the last
[48:47] Speaker 2: thing is dealing with stress, because we're all going to
[48:50] Speaker 2: deal with it, and so I think it's important to
[48:53] Speaker 2: talk about how I deal with my stress may be
[48:55] Speaker 2: different than how you deal with it, but we have
[48:58] Speaker 2: to fight a way for you to learn how to
[48:59] Speaker 2: manage And I mean one of the most used techniques
[49:04] Speaker 2: is it to avoid, but we have to talk about
[49:06] Speaker 2: like how that doesn't work in the long term, right,
[49:09] Speaker 2: And so what are the things that we need in
[49:12] Speaker 2: order to manage the stress we're having Because as we
[49:16] Speaker 2: get older, if we don't know how to manage our stress,
[49:18] Speaker 2: then we turn to substances we turn to other things
[49:21] Speaker 2: that we don't want our kids turning to, and so
[49:24] Speaker 2: we got to talk through those things with them. And
[49:26] Speaker 2: those are the building blocks, right, So our relationships with them,
[49:31] Speaker 2: making sure they're positive, those routine conversations, teaching them how
[49:36] Speaker 2: to problem solve the hard stuff, letting them face the
[49:40] Speaker 2: hard stuff it's okay if they fail, helping them learn
[49:43] Speaker 2: through that failure is really really important. And then champion
[49:47] Speaker 2: them when they do well, like they need to hear
[49:51] Speaker 2: our praise and our encouragement for their efforts for when
[49:55] Speaker 2: we see them trying to do their best, and then
[49:57] Speaker 2: when they do well, like we need to make sure
[49:59] Speaker 2: they hear it because all those things. I think, for me,
[50:02] Speaker 2: there are times when graduate school and all those things
[50:06] Speaker 2: are really hard. But like I remember my mom screaming
[50:10] Speaker 2: so loud when I got my first interview for graduate school.
[50:14] Speaker 2: Like that, champion, cheerleader spirit can sometimes be the thing
[50:20] Speaker 2: that helps you sometimes when you remember, like I have
[50:24] Speaker 2: people on my side when things feel hard, and so
[50:26] Speaker 2: I think that's just another thing to make sure that
[50:28] Speaker 2: they have like networksiye with those champions as well.
[50:32] Speaker 1: Thank you so much for that. I think those are
[50:34] Speaker 1: excellent building gloves for us to incorporate. So for anybody
[50:37] Speaker 1: who's listening who maybe feels overwhelmed and like, oh my gosh,
[50:40] Speaker 1: so many things to tackle at once, what is one
[50:43] Speaker 1: thing maybe you'd like them to do this week to
[50:46] Speaker 1: kind of start making some progress in this space.
[50:49] Speaker 2: Start with some simple conversations just what does your child like,
[50:54] Speaker 2: what do they like doing online? Why do they like it?
[50:58] Speaker 2: And just starting off there just to get to know
[51:01] Speaker 2: what they like in a non judgmental way. Can sometimes
[51:05] Speaker 2: get the rest of those kinds of conversations and other
[51:08] Speaker 2: things that we talked about started, but we just want
[51:11] Speaker 2: to start off simple with just getting to know kind
[51:13] Speaker 2: of conversation.
[51:15] Speaker 1: And what would you like middle schoolers themselves to know
[51:17] Speaker 1: if they ever happen to listen to this conversation.
[51:21] Speaker 2: Because you don't have to be on every device all
[51:24] Speaker 2: the time, sometimes we feel like if we miss an
[51:28] Speaker 2: alert on the group chat that maybe they'll think we
[51:31] Speaker 2: don't care, or like it's the end of the world.
[51:35] Speaker 2: Of our parents are saying you have to get off
[51:37] Speaker 2: of a device, But the reality is there's a lot
[51:39] Speaker 2: of life out there that we don't want you, as
[51:43] Speaker 2: your adults in a life to miss out on and
[51:45] Speaker 2: so having some good boundaries is important and you will
[51:50] Speaker 2: thank them in the long run for making sure that
[51:52] Speaker 2: you have other things that you like as well in
[51:55] Speaker 2: your life.
[51:55] Speaker 1: Beautiful, this has been so incredibly helpful, Doctor Whitney. Please
[51:58] Speaker 1: let us know where we can connected with you. What
[52:01] Speaker 1: is your website and any social media channels you'd like
[52:03] Speaker 1: to share.
[52:04] Speaker 2: So you can always find more information at the Kids
[52:07] Speaker 2: Mental Health Foundation dot org. That's Kids Mentalhealth Foundation dot org.
[52:12] Speaker 2: And then you can find me on Instagram at doctor
[52:15] Speaker 2: with PhD. So Doctor with PhD is my Instagram, so
[52:20] Speaker 2: they can definitely follow me on Instagram, and then all
[52:23] Speaker 2: the other information that can find where our work is
[52:26] Speaker 2: the Kids in the Health Foundation, and we have a
[52:27] Speaker 2: lot of resources that we talked about today, like developing
[52:31] Speaker 2: a family plan and learning about AI and banging and
[52:35] Speaker 2: all those kinds of things on our website. Think you
[52:37] Speaker 2: be really.
[52:37] Speaker 1: Helpful, perfect We'll be sure to include all of that
[52:40] Speaker 1: in our show notes. Thank you so much for sending
[52:42] Speaker 1: some time with us today. I appreciate it.
[52:44] Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. This is awesome.
[52:46] Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so glad doctor Raglan Bignall was able
[52:53] Speaker 1: to join me for this incredible conversation. To learn more
[52:56] Speaker 1: about her and her work, be sure to visit the
[52:58] Speaker 1: show notes that Therapy for Black Girls slash Session four
[53:01] Speaker 1: seventy six, and don't forget to text this episodes to
[53:04] Speaker 1: two of your girls right now and tell them to
[53:06] Speaker 1: check out the episode. Did you know that you could
[53:08] Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for
[53:11] Speaker 1: the podcast. If you have thoughts about topics we should discuss,
[53:15] Speaker 1: drop us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy
[53:17] Speaker 1: for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
[53:20] Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
[53:23] Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
[53:25] Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't
[53:29] Speaker 1: forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black
[53:32] Speaker 1: Girls and come on over and join us in our
[53:34] Speaker 1: Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and
[53:38] Speaker 1: much more. You can join us at community dot Therapy
[53:41] Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis,
[53:45] Speaker 1: Indechubou and Bria Moseley. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford.
[53:49] Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
[53:52] Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
[53:54] Speaker 1: real soon take good care.
[54:00] Speaker 2: But what

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