# Session 481: What Worth Actually Means with Dr. Marisa Franco

An episode of [Therapy for Black Girls](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1223803641), 16 Sep 2026, 51 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/2a22ac04-0eb4-4aad-8dc2-ae270179efb9/971016b9-2e57-40fb-a0ba-b4c7002438b7/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=2d42d89c-4962-4760-a616-ae270179efd5

Dr. Marisa Franco is back, and this time she's turning her attention from friendship to something underneath it: self-worth. Her new book, Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment, starts with a confession. While her relationship was falling apart, she was performing security, saying all the right things, staying calm, doing everything the books tell you to do, while quietly abandoning what she actually felt. She and Dr. Joy talk through why that kind of self-abandonment is so familiar to Black women in particular, and what it costs us. The conversation moves through what Dr. Franco calls the difference between the good twin and the bad twin of high self-esteem, both of whom say they feel good about themselves, but only one of whom can sit with a hard feeling instead of pushing it away. She explains why insecurity isn't a flaw so much as a coping strategy our brains developed to protect us from repeat harm, and introduces memory reconsolidation, the idea that revisiting an old memory with care can actually change its emotional charge and help you feel safer moving forward. They also dig into stigma, identity stretching, and what happens when we spend our lives chronically evaluating ourselves against an ideal we didn't choose. Dr. Franco talks about raising kids with real self-worth instead of just confidence, why chasing achievement often keeps us from feeling anything at all, and what it means to aim for secure-ish instead of secure. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. Where to Find Our Guest Grab your copy of Worth Instagram: @drmarisagfranco Website: drmarisagfranco.com Newsletter: Attached (on Substack) Stay Connected Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:10] Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
[0:14] Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
[0:19] Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
[0:22] Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a
[0:27] Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
[0:32] Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com.
[0:38] Speaker 1: While I hope you love listening to and learning from
[0:41] Speaker 1: the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute
[0:45] Speaker 1: for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all.
[0:56] Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining me for session 481 of
[0:59] Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. It's always a wonderful
[1:02] Speaker 1: time when we have a repeat guest on the show.
[1:05] Speaker 1: And today's guest is Dr. Marissa G.
[1:07] Speaker 2: Franco.
[1:07] Speaker 1: Returning to chat about her new book, Worth, the new
[1:10] Speaker 1: science of self-esteem and secure attachment. It gets into the
[1:14] Speaker 1: difference between self-esteem and self-worth, why some of the things
[1:18] Speaker 1: we think should make us feel better can actually backfire,
[1:21] Speaker 1: and how healing old memories can change how we feel
[1:24] Speaker 1: safe in the present. We'll get right into our conversation
[1:27] Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Dr. Franco opens her
[1:39] Speaker 1: new book in a funny way by telling on herself first.
[1:42] Speaker 1: In Worth, she tells a story about performing security in
[1:45] Speaker 1: a relationship that was really falling apart. You know that
[1:49] Speaker 1: thing when you say all the right things and try
[1:51] Speaker 1: to stay calm on the outside while unraveling on the inside?
[1:54] Speaker 1: We would call that self-abandonment. A lot of us, especially
[1:58] Speaker 1: Black women, learn that early. We get good at taking
[2:01] Speaker 1: care of everyone else's comfort before we check in with ourselves.
[2:04] Speaker 1: I want to circle back to Dr. Franco's first book, Platonics.
[2:08] Speaker 1: which gave people the tools to build better friendships. Worth
[2:11] Speaker 1: goes underneath that into why so many of us can
[2:14] Speaker 1: do everything right and still feel like something is missing,
[2:17] Speaker 1: even if we have the seemingly perfect friendships or relationships.
[2:21] Speaker 1: We sought out the difference between confidence and worth, why
[2:25] Speaker 1: insecurity actually developed as a way to protect us, and
[2:28] Speaker 1: a concept called memory reconsolidation that might change how you
[2:32] Speaker 1: think about healing old wounds. We also get into stigma, identity,
[2:37] Speaker 1: and what it really means to raise confident Black kids
[2:39] Speaker 1: without skipping over what they're actually feeling. Press play and
[2:43] Speaker 1: let's get into it. Well, thank you so much for
[2:50] Speaker 1: joining us again today, Dr. Franco.
[2:52] Speaker 2: It's great to be back, Dr. Joy.
[2:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like so much has happened since we
[2:56] Speaker 1: last chatted. You've written a whole new book.
[2:59] Speaker 2: Another one.
[3:03] Speaker 1: So the new book is called Worth and you open
[3:06] Speaker 1: it up by being very self-disclosing, which is one of
[3:09] Speaker 1: the things I really love about your writing. Like you
[3:11] Speaker 1: have a way of bringing your own stories into your
[3:14] Speaker 1: books that I think is very like connecting and humanizing
[3:17] Speaker 1: that like we all kind of deal with these things.
[3:20] Speaker 1: But you talk about how your relationship is kind of
[3:23] Speaker 1: falling apart, but you are performing security, right? Like you're
[3:26] Speaker 1: doing all the things, saying all the things, you know,
[3:28] Speaker 1: trying to stay calm. So what made you start the
[3:31] Speaker 1: book there?
[3:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I feel like the book is really written
[3:37] Speaker 2: for the people that are so hungry for healing and
[3:41] Speaker 2: want to try everything and have learned all the techniques,
[3:46] Speaker 2: have learned to use the I statements and to co-regulate,
[3:49] Speaker 2: but there's like something missing. Like I feel like when
[3:52] Speaker 2: I wrote Platonic, I remember having a reader say to
[3:54] Speaker 2: me like, oh, it's one thing to know all these
[3:57] Speaker 2: strategies to act secure, but I still don't feel it
[4:00] Speaker 2: deeply within. And so I was like, that's really tragic.
[4:03] Speaker 2: I don't want people performing security saying all the right
[4:07] Speaker 2: things when meanwhile, they're still feeling so bad about themselves
[4:11] Speaker 2: or so dysregulated. And that is further detaching them from
[4:14] Speaker 2: who they are. And then I realized I was one
[4:16] Speaker 2: of those people. So I talk in the book about
[4:19] Speaker 2: how in a prior romantic relationship, my partner had sort
[4:23] Speaker 2: of shut down, pulled away, withdrew. And my sort of
[4:27] Speaker 2: approach to that as like someone who's over-functioned before was like,
[4:31] Speaker 2: all right, let me try co-regulation. Let me try to
[4:33] Speaker 2: like regulate him. Let me try the Soft start. Let
[4:36] Speaker 2: me be curious about his internal experience instead of first
[4:40] Speaker 2: attuning to my experience, which is like, I'm not feeling good.
[4:43] Speaker 2: I'm feeling neglected here. And realizing that like we can
[4:47] Speaker 2: get all the tips on how to relate healthily. But
[4:50] Speaker 2: if the first step isn't checking in with yourself and
[4:53] Speaker 2: where you're at. And whether you have capacity to do
[4:56] Speaker 2: these tips and whether they align with where you're at authentically,
[4:59] Speaker 2: then they can actually be a form of self-abandonment that
[5:02] Speaker 2: I wanted to call out for people who've been on
[5:05] Speaker 2: that same journey that I have.
[5:07] Speaker 1: I feel like every time I hear the term self-abandonment,
[5:10] Speaker 1: it hits me so strongly because I feel like that
[5:12] Speaker 1: is something as Black women, we are socialized to do
[5:15] Speaker 1: quite a bit. It's just kind of like abandon ourselves
[5:18] Speaker 1: for the interest and the priorities of everybody else.
[5:21] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Over-functioning galore. Like, let me do
[5:26] Speaker 2: all these things to make sure everyone else is taken
[5:28] Speaker 2: care of. But what about you? What about you being
[5:31] Speaker 2: taken care of?
[5:34] Speaker 1: So, you know, something else that I was struck by
[5:36] Speaker 1: is that, you know, you do a little bit of
[5:38] Speaker 1: kind of like, hey, this is what I wrote in
[5:40] Speaker 1: the first book, but here's actually how I want you
[5:42] Speaker 1: to think about this maybe differently now. And so I'm
[5:45] Speaker 1: curious if maybe if Worth had been your first book
[5:48] Speaker 1: and Platonic was the second one, how do you think
[5:50] Speaker 1: it might have been different?
[5:51] Speaker 2: Oh, what a good question. I think platonic, like I
[5:55] Speaker 2: gave people all of the science-backed techniques you could engage
[5:58] Speaker 2: in to better connect with other people. And they're quite effective.
[6:03] Speaker 2: But I think at the core of all of that,
[6:05] Speaker 2: and I got into this a little bit of platonic
[6:07] Speaker 2: because I had a chapter on authenticity is who we
[6:09] Speaker 2: are without our defense mechanisms. But at the core of
[6:12] Speaker 2: all of this should be you, which is like, do
[6:17] Speaker 2: you want to make friends? Do you want to share affection?
[6:20] Speaker 2: Do you want to be vulnerable? And why might you,
[6:23] Speaker 2: why might you not? And really working with yourself and
[6:26] Speaker 2: not overriding yourself. But honestly, this is a dilemma that
[6:30] Speaker 2: I still have, which is in platonic, I really emphasize
[6:35] Speaker 2: this idea of under-sociality, which is when we think about
[6:38] Speaker 2: impact of social connection. We underestimate just how meaningful it'll
[6:42] Speaker 2: be to talk to a stranger, just how much it'll
[6:44] Speaker 2: benefit us. We underestimate just how much affection benefits the relationship,
[6:48] Speaker 2: just how positively people receive it. We underestimate how an
[6:50] Speaker 2: act of vulnerability will connect us. So my struggle is
[6:53] Speaker 2: when you're attuning to yourself, you might be like, oh,
[6:56] Speaker 2: I don't want to be vulnerable because of that under
[6:58] Speaker 2: sociology phenomenon, because you think people will judge me when
[7:01] Speaker 2: in fact research shows that people will receive you quite positively.
[7:04] Speaker 2: So it's like, I guess, a negotiation between being able
[7:07] Speaker 2: to push yourself outside of your comfort zone, but also
[7:11] Speaker 2: maybe starting with knowing where your comfort zone is. So
[7:13] Speaker 2: you're pushing yourself outside of that in a way that
[7:16] Speaker 2: is accessible for you and not completely overwhelming.
[7:21] Speaker 1: So one of the things that you do in the
[7:23] Speaker 1: book is that you make a distinction between feeling worthy
[7:26] Speaker 1: and feeling confident. And I think a lot of people
[7:28] Speaker 1: kind of tend to use those words kind of interchangeably
[7:31] Speaker 1: as if they mean the same thing. What's the difference?
[7:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I talk about self-esteem and that
[7:38] Speaker 2: when I looked into the research on self-esteem, people that
[7:41] Speaker 2: have high self-esteem, they say, I feel good about myself.
[7:44] Speaker 2: I feel worthy. And I realized that there's really two
[7:48] Speaker 2: very distinct type of people with high self-esteem. I call
[7:51] Speaker 2: them the good twin and the bad twin. And so
[7:54] Speaker 2: the good twin is they have high self-esteem and they
[7:57] Speaker 2: treat other people really well. They're very compassionate towards others.
[7:59] Speaker 2: They have very positive relationships. can take constructive criticism, can
[8:03] Speaker 2: perspective take. Versus the quote unquote bad twin, they're also
[8:07] Speaker 2: saying they feel really good about themselves. They're hostile towards others.
[8:09] Speaker 2: They're reactive towards others. They can't take feedback. They take
[8:12] Speaker 2: out their aggression on other people. They try to act
[8:14] Speaker 2: superior to other people. And I was trying to understand,
[8:17] Speaker 2: I need to understand the difference between these two types
[8:19] Speaker 2: of high self, because they're both saying I feel good
[8:21] Speaker 2: about myself, but I don't want to lead people to
[8:24] Speaker 2: become the kind of self-esteem that comes at everyone else's expense.
[8:28] Speaker 2: So I talked to my colleague, Beth, And I'm like, yeah,
[8:30] Speaker 2: like these egotistical people who say they feel good about themselves,
[8:33] Speaker 2: but it's giving insecure. And Beth is so compassionate. She's like,
[8:37] Speaker 2: I'm thinking about myself when I feel defensive. I usually
[8:40] Speaker 2: feel a lot of shame within and it's triggering that
[8:43] Speaker 2: deeper shame. And it occurs to me that this quote
[8:47] Speaker 2: unquote bad twin of self-esteem, all of us are that sometimes.
[8:50] Speaker 2: All of us have the urge to be defensive, to
[8:52] Speaker 2: maybe act aggressive back to someone, to escalate, right? But
[8:56] Speaker 2: Beth showed me in that moment that, is that, because
[8:59] Speaker 2: Beth was sort of like this good twin that I
[9:01] Speaker 2: had intuited, that the difference is that these good twins
[9:04] Speaker 2: acknowledge those urges. They acknowledge that hostility. They're able to
[9:09] Speaker 2: label it so it doesn't hijack them. They're in touch
[9:12] Speaker 2: with their feelings. They're in touch with their emotions versus
[9:15] Speaker 2: the bad twin. I'm pushing away any negative emotion. I'm
[9:18] Speaker 2: pushing away any signs of shame. I feel good about
[9:20] Speaker 2: myself because that voice that tells me I'm not good,
[9:23] Speaker 2: I just ignore it and I push through, right? And
[9:27] Speaker 2: I realized that people could be high self-esteem, but low
[9:30] Speaker 2: self-worth because self-worth to me is about treating every feeling
[9:35] Speaker 2: like it matters, which means treating yourself as if you matter.
[9:39] Speaker 2: It's in fact, not pushing your feelings away, but accessing
[9:42] Speaker 2: them from a grounded place. And so someone I interviewed
[9:45] Speaker 2: who was referred because they feel very worthy, they said
[9:48] Speaker 2: I would wave my hands throughout my day to see
[9:51] Speaker 2: where my emotional energy lie. They would almost look for
[9:55] Speaker 2: times in which they felt triggered times in which they
[9:57] Speaker 2: felt strong emotion because that was a part of themselves
[10:01] Speaker 2: that they didn't want to push away. They wanted to
[10:03] Speaker 2: know all of themselves, every feeling at a time. And
[10:06] Speaker 2: that was very groundbreaking for me because I'm someone that
[10:09] Speaker 2: feels like I'm in touch with my feelings, but I
[10:11] Speaker 2: won't go out and look for a negative emotion that
[10:13] Speaker 2: needs my help or needs my support, right? And so
[10:16] Speaker 2: since writing the book, It's a lot more of a
[10:18] Speaker 2: practice for me. I try to do a meditation every
[10:20] Speaker 2: morning where I might see, confront, like, was there any
[10:24] Speaker 2: sort of negative feelings that come up? And I try
[10:26] Speaker 2: to offer myself care. It's instead of like trying to
[10:29] Speaker 2: push away your negative feelings and your insecurities, actually embracing
[10:33] Speaker 2: them and offering those parts of you that care that
[10:36] Speaker 2: they need to actually heal. That's worth it.
[10:40] Speaker 1: Yeah. So how are you conceptualizing, and I think maybe
[10:43] Speaker 1: this is an expansion of this question, like what is
[10:46] Speaker 1: a definition for worth for you? Because it feels like
[10:48] Speaker 1: you pulled on a lot of different areas to kind
[10:51] Speaker 1: of come up with this idea of what worth is.
[10:53] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So I think of worth as more of
[10:55] Speaker 2: a practice than an end state. And it is a
[10:57] Speaker 2: practice of two things, sensitivity, which involves being aware of
[11:02] Speaker 2: your emotions, and responsiveness, which involves being using those emotions
[11:06] Speaker 2: as information as to better meet your needs and then
[11:09] Speaker 2: asking for needs as is necessary. I'm also pulling from
[11:12] Speaker 2: the attachment literature because this is how parents treat kids.
[11:15] Speaker 2: When their kids cry, they're like, oh my God, you're sad.
[11:17] Speaker 2: I'm here, I'm here. You know, maybe you need a nap.
[11:20] Speaker 2: Maybe you need some food. And so too, it's doing
[11:23] Speaker 2: that process that would have made us secure if our
[11:26] Speaker 2: parents gave it to us, doing that process internally all
[11:29] Speaker 2: the time as a practice. Yeah.
[11:32] Speaker 1: So something else that you talk about is that insecurity
[11:35] Speaker 1: has developed as a coping strategy, right? Like that it
[11:37] Speaker 1: is adaptive. Can you say more about that?
[11:39] Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. So as I was understanding self-esteem and how
[11:47] Speaker 2: it works, I came across this theory called self-verification theory,
[11:51] Speaker 2: which is this idea that we look for people that
[11:53] Speaker 2: verify our sense of self, which means if I feel
[11:56] Speaker 2: particularly bad about myself, People that see me too positively
[12:00] Speaker 2: are threats because I think they're going to figure out
[12:03] Speaker 2: who I really am and I'm going to disappoint them.
[12:06] Speaker 2: So they trigger all types of anxiety. And you find,
[12:08] Speaker 2: for example, a study that shows that when people have
[12:11] Speaker 2: low self-esteem, they're less committed to spouses who see them
[12:14] Speaker 2: more positively. Or when they get positive feedback, their blood
[12:18] Speaker 2: pressure actually rises. It feels very threatening to get this
[12:21] Speaker 2: positive feedback, to get signs of love from other people.
[12:24] Speaker 2: And that's, unworthiness really manifests as this inability to process
[12:28] Speaker 2: signs of love and acceptance. Now, how does that make
[12:31] Speaker 2: any sense? How is that adaptive? Why would our brains
[12:34] Speaker 2: literally discount the very things that might make us more
[12:37] Speaker 2: secure or more worthy? Well, you can think of your
[12:40] Speaker 2: sense of self-worth as a theory of self. And so
[12:43] Speaker 2: if you have a negative sense of self-worth, your theory
[12:45] Speaker 2: is that others are going to reject you and harm you. Now,
[12:49] Speaker 2: where does this theory come from? It's your memories. And
[12:52] Speaker 2: memories don't just record the past. but they predict the future.
[12:57] Speaker 2: So a part of you thinks that that rejection is
[13:00] Speaker 2: gonna happen again, that harm is gonna happen again. And
[13:04] Speaker 2: if you feel too good about yourself, your sense of
[13:06] Speaker 2: self is gonna decline more precipitously when that rejection happens again.
[13:12] Speaker 2: And thus, if you keep yourself feeling low, since you're
[13:15] Speaker 2: convinced you're gonna be harmed, since you're convinced you're gonna
[13:17] Speaker 2: be rejected, you're gonna feel more prepared for it. And
[13:20] Speaker 2: it's not going to plummet your sense of self as much.
[13:23] Speaker 2: And so if you really understand the psychology of self-worth,
[13:26] Speaker 2: you'll understand why these insecurities are actually adaptive for us.
[13:31] Speaker 2: They're protecting us against a reality of harm that part
[13:34] Speaker 2: of us thinks will happen again.
[13:36] Speaker 1: Again, one of the things I love about your writing
[13:37] Speaker 1: is that I'm always introduced to like this new cool
[13:39] Speaker 1: research and I'm like, oh my gosh, there's a name
[13:42] Speaker 1: for this. And like, I never knew about this study.
[13:44] Speaker 1: So kind of expanding this idea of memory, you introduced
[13:47] Speaker 1: the term memory reconsolidation. Yes. Can you say more about
[13:51] Speaker 1: what that means and how it fits into the concept
[13:53] Speaker 1: of worth? Yeah. Yeah.
[13:55] Speaker 2: As you can see, I drew from so many different
[13:57] Speaker 2: fields of worth, self-esteem, secure attachment, worthiness to come up
[14:01] Speaker 2: with all this sort of grand thesis of worth. So
[14:05] Speaker 2: when I study attachment theory, I talk to people about
[14:08] Speaker 2: attachment theory. Often people are like, oh, that sucks that
[14:12] Speaker 2: I'm insecurely attached and it feels like I'm gonna be
[14:14] Speaker 2: insecurely attached forever. And maybe just to take a step
[14:17] Speaker 2: back and do a quick review of attachment theory for
[14:19] Speaker 2: those who aren't familiar with it. Your attachment style is
[14:22] Speaker 2: basically an early experience with your parents of connection or
[14:26] Speaker 2: disconnection that manifests in an internal unconscious template you have
[14:30] Speaker 2: for how other people will treat you throughout your life.
[14:33] Speaker 2: And so if you are securely attached, your parents treated
[14:36] Speaker 2: you good enough. They were sort of sensitive and responsive
[14:39] Speaker 2: to your emotions. And you are able to go into
[14:42] Speaker 2: new connections, assuming the best, that you can be vulnerable,
[14:45] Speaker 2: you can be safe, you can be affectionate. Relationships are
[14:47] Speaker 2: generally safe places. If your parents were preoccupied perhaps with
[14:51] Speaker 2: their own triggers, then you feel like you had to
[14:54] Speaker 2: earn their love. You had to fight for it. And
[14:57] Speaker 2: you learn to be anxiously attached. You always fear someone's
[14:59] Speaker 2: going to abandon you unless you're proving yourself. So you
[15:02] Speaker 2: tend to see rejection when it's not there. You do
[15:04] Speaker 2: so many things to protect against rejection, like move really
[15:07] Speaker 2: fast in relationships, or you take things really personally, or
[15:10] Speaker 2: you can be avoidantly attached, which means you've experienced like
[15:13] Speaker 2: emotional neglect. Your parents maybe gave you food, shelter, but
[15:16] Speaker 2: didn't want to hear it, didn't want to hear you cry,
[15:18] Speaker 2: didn't want to hear any sort of negative emotion from you.
[15:21] Speaker 2: So you've learned that if you get close to someone,
[15:23] Speaker 2: they're going to shame you. And so you keep people
[15:25] Speaker 2: at a distance. You are not vulnerable. You're not affectionate.
[15:28] Speaker 2: You're a lone wolf. Or even if you have friends,
[15:29] Speaker 2: you feel like they don't really know you. And so
[15:33] Speaker 2: what is our attachment theory? What is our self-worth? What
[15:36] Speaker 2: is our self-esteem? It's really a series of memories, right?
[15:39] Speaker 2: That's what it is. It's memories of your past that are, again,
[15:43] Speaker 2: predicting the future. So you're reacting as if they're reoccurring.
[15:46] Speaker 2: But when I tell people about attachment theory, they're like,
[15:49] Speaker 2: oh man, I'm going to be anxiously attached forever. This stinks.
[15:52] Speaker 2: I'm going to always be afraid of intimacy as an
[15:54] Speaker 2: avoidant person. I wish I could get closer to people,
[15:57] Speaker 2: but something keeps holding me back. But the truth is,
[16:00] Speaker 2: then this is literally the thesis of the book, you
[16:04] Speaker 2: can change your attachment style. You can change your self-worth
[16:07] Speaker 2: because according to a theory called memory reconsolidation theory, Every
[16:11] Speaker 2: time you revisit a memory, you can change the emotional
[16:14] Speaker 2: valence of that memory. You can change the emotions of
[16:17] Speaker 2: that memory. And because memories are made to predict the
[16:20] Speaker 2: future and not record the past, we have this mechanism
[16:23] Speaker 2: where we can keep updating them so they can better
[16:25] Speaker 2: predict the future. Thus is the crux of something that
[16:29] Speaker 2: some of your listeners may be familiar with, like inner
[16:31] Speaker 2: child work. And so a practical exercise for changing your memories,
[16:36] Speaker 2: and I go into all of these in detail in
[16:38] Speaker 2: the book, is you go into a negative memory of rejection,
[16:41] Speaker 2: of harm, of shame. You try to reactivate it as
[16:45] Speaker 2: much as possible with your five senses. What were you seeing?
[16:48] Speaker 2: What were you smelling? What were you hearing? What were
[16:50] Speaker 2: you touching? And you picture your adult self intervening and
[16:54] Speaker 2: giving yourself the exact care that you would have needed.
[16:57] Speaker 2: You tell your younger self that nothing is wrong with you.
[17:01] Speaker 2: The way that they're treating you has nothing to do
[17:03] Speaker 2: with you. Like, You are worthy. Exactly how you're showing
[17:07] Speaker 2: up right now is okay. And I'm here to make
[17:08] Speaker 2: you feel safe. And I'm here to support you. And
[17:12] Speaker 2: after people go through their memories and do this activity,
[17:16] Speaker 2: it has a powerful research-backed impact where you see not
[17:20] Speaker 2: only does their self-esteem increase, but also if you look
[17:23] Speaker 2: at the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain
[17:25] Speaker 2: where memories are stored, you find changes at the neural
[17:29] Speaker 2: level as a reflection of this memory reconsolidation activity.
[17:33] Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. You know, the
[17:44] Speaker 1: expansion of the attachment theory is that you talk about
[17:47] Speaker 1: like the goal is not to be completely secure. The
[17:50] Speaker 1: goal is to be secure-ish. Why was that an important distinction?
[17:54] Speaker 2: Well, I think really what I'm trying to say with
[17:57] Speaker 2: worth is like, finding a state of worthiness is about
[18:01] Speaker 2: acknowledging every feeling, not feeling like you need to push
[18:05] Speaker 2: them away or shame yourself for them or numb out
[18:10] Speaker 2: on these feelings. And again, this is very hard work.
[18:12] Speaker 2: And for some of us, we might need therapy to
[18:14] Speaker 2: be able to do this because every time we access
[18:17] Speaker 2: a feeling, we access the history of that entire feeling.
[18:19] Speaker 2: And so if you're trying to re-access sadness, you might
[18:21] Speaker 2: be hit with a lifetime's worth of sadness. But that
[18:24] Speaker 2: is sort of like the ultimate way to move towards
[18:27] Speaker 2: greater sense of worth is to treat every feeling Like
[18:29] Speaker 2: it matters. And so what I've seen in the world
[18:33] Speaker 2: of attachment styles is secure attachment has started to become
[18:38] Speaker 2: a status symbol. You see, I'm securely attached on dating apps.
[18:42] Speaker 2: Influencers of Brown built their entire, I'm laughing as I'm
[18:46] Speaker 2: saying this because I'm like me included, built their entire
[18:48] Speaker 2: platform on attachment theory, right? And, you know, you see
[18:52] Speaker 2: New York Times, Modern Love, and I finally found my
[18:55] Speaker 2: securely attached partner and I dumped that like avoided jerk.
[18:59] Speaker 2: And we've created such a hierarchy of attachment styles where
[19:02] Speaker 2: it's like, oh, like keep it quiet that you're anxious.
[19:05] Speaker 2: Keep it quiet that you're avoided. Nobody's going to love you.
[19:08] Speaker 2: And the irony is that when we shame our parts
[19:11] Speaker 2: of ourselves that are anxious, when we shame the parts
[19:14] Speaker 2: of ourselves that are avoided, when we try to ignore
[19:17] Speaker 2: them and sort of like cosplay security, we are reenacting
[19:22] Speaker 2: on our very selves the harm that made us insecure
[19:25] Speaker 2: in the first place, which was someone shaming us and
[19:28] Speaker 2: someone neglecting us. And so I say in the book,
[19:31] Speaker 2: like if you're going to try to strive for something,
[19:34] Speaker 2: may it not be secure, but secure-ish so that there's
[19:38] Speaker 2: always room when you feel anxious and when you feel
[19:41] Speaker 2: avoided for that to not be a threat to your
[19:43] Speaker 2: sense of self, but for that to be a part
[19:46] Speaker 2: of yourself that you can acknowledge, support, love, experience, You know,
[19:51] Speaker 2: with the anxious kids, you might have to say, I'm safe,
[19:53] Speaker 2: I'm safe, I'm safe until you actually feel that in
[19:55] Speaker 2: your body. Or the avoidant folks, you know, you might
[19:58] Speaker 2: have to start re-accessing emotions, even if that feels so
[20:01] Speaker 2: scary and intertwined with shame for you. And so It's
[20:05] Speaker 2: really about being exactly where you are on the sort
[20:09] Speaker 2: of attachment style spectrum rather than trying to drag yourself
[20:13] Speaker 2: to security and leave your insecure parts behind.
[20:18] Speaker 1: You know, Dr. Franco, we have so many conversations here
[20:20] Speaker 1: on the podcast about how terms like attachment theory and
[20:25] Speaker 1: narcissism and like how they have kind of escaped narcissism.
[20:28] Speaker 1: Their original meanings.
[20:30] Speaker 2: Right.
[20:30] Speaker 1: And like how they were used clinically and, you know,
[20:32] Speaker 1: kind of as jargon and have really become like these
[20:35] Speaker 1: things that people are talking about very laissez faire and
[20:39] Speaker 1: go like, let's just talk about this. Right. Can you
[20:42] Speaker 1: talk about the impact and like why we might want
[20:44] Speaker 1: to be careful with terms like attachment theory and like, oh,
[20:48] Speaker 1: I am secure. I'm avoidant attached.
[20:51] Speaker 2: Right.
[20:51] Speaker 1: What is the caveat that you would offer there for
[20:54] Speaker 1: people not to maybe go too far down a rabbit
[20:56] Speaker 1: hole with some of those things?
[20:58] Speaker 2: I mean, it's just heavily reductionistic and it doesn't allow
[21:02] Speaker 2: ourselves to see the complexity of someone else or ourselves.
[21:05] Speaker 2: Not only that, I think when we use it as
[21:08] Speaker 2: a weapon, like you're acting avoidant, right? Fix yourself. Like
[21:13] Speaker 2: that's not actually how people fix themselves. If someone is
[21:17] Speaker 2: having an overwhelming need to withdraw out of fear, what
[21:20] Speaker 2: they actually need is somebody that gives them space and
[21:22] Speaker 2: allows them to return and show them care. But in
[21:25] Speaker 2: practice with the way that it's used right now, instead
[21:28] Speaker 2: it feels like the way to handle that avoidance in
[21:31] Speaker 2: your partner is to be like, you're avoidant and you
[21:33] Speaker 2: need to fix that because I can't be with an
[21:35] Speaker 2: avoidant partner, right? Like I think when we reduce each
[21:39] Speaker 2: other to stereotype, we are taking something very complex and
[21:43] Speaker 2: we are turning it into something very reductionistic. And not
[21:47] Speaker 2: only that, we are not offering care to a person
[21:50] Speaker 2: that becomes an abstract rather than an actual human. So
[21:53] Speaker 2: in some ways, I think we can risk both dehumanizing
[21:57] Speaker 2: other people and dehumanizing ourselves. And I think relationships move forward.
[22:02] Speaker 2: Our sense of self moves forward when we can simply
[22:05] Speaker 2: acknowledge the truth without attaching all of this shame onto it, right?
[22:11] Speaker 2: And that's not to say you have to be with
[22:13] Speaker 2: an avoided person. You have to be with an anxious person.
[22:15] Speaker 2: You could say, this doesn't work for me. This doesn't
[22:17] Speaker 2: align with my needs, right? But you don't have to necessarily...
[22:21] Speaker 2: shame them and tell them to fix themselves, which sometimes
[22:24] Speaker 2: it feels like in the zeitgeist, the way we're talking
[22:26] Speaker 2: about that is how we've been headed.
[22:28] Speaker 1: Yeah. So many of the ways that you talk about
[22:32] Speaker 1: like healing and like how to get closer to being
[22:35] Speaker 1: secure-ish in the book don't necessarily involve like traditional talk therapy, right?
[22:39] Speaker 1: Like you talk about a lot of body work, a
[22:41] Speaker 1: lot of like somatic kinds of things. Why was that important?
[22:45] Speaker 1: And why do like these feelings of unworthiness and like
[22:49] Speaker 1: lack of maybe secure attachment show up more in our bodies?
[22:53] Speaker 2: Well, you might say in reaction to my whole memory
[22:57] Speaker 2: reconsolidation spiel, like, I don't remember. I don't remember the memories.
[23:02] Speaker 2: I don't remember my childhood. So what do I do now?
[23:06] Speaker 2: And so there's something called implicit memory. And implicit memory
[23:11] Speaker 2: are things that we don't remember that affect us now.
[23:15] Speaker 2: And especially when we're very young in our childhood, before like, toddlerhood, right?
[23:20] Speaker 2: Like our hippocampus isn't developed. And that's the part of
[23:22] Speaker 2: our brain that records the content of a memory, like
[23:25] Speaker 2: the scene of the memory. But our amygdala, which records
[23:28] Speaker 2: the emotion of the memory, that's fully formed a lot earlier.
[23:31] Speaker 2: So we're picking up on emotions very heavily when before
[23:35] Speaker 2: we can even remember what they are. And so there's
[23:39] Speaker 2: a really interesting study where people that had a damaged hippocampus,
[23:44] Speaker 2: where they couldn't actually remember anything, they were exposed to
[23:47] Speaker 2: a slide that was blue, a loud noise played, Eventually,
[23:50] Speaker 2: they were exposed to a blue slide and their body
[23:53] Speaker 2: started tingling, reacting, sweating, because they anticipated the loud noise.
[23:57] Speaker 2: But if you ask them, hey, what color slide was
[24:01] Speaker 2: associated with the noise? They wouldn't be able to tell you.
[24:03] Speaker 2: And that was showing if the amygdala is intact, our
[24:06] Speaker 2: body's still recording these memories, even if we don't remember
[24:10] Speaker 2: that they happened. And so the somatic experiencing work, the
[24:14] Speaker 2: body-based stuff, is working on implicit memories. Now, how does
[24:17] Speaker 2: that manifest? A trigger. when you're triggered, that's an implicit memory.
[24:21] Speaker 2: That is something else that has happened to you that
[24:25] Speaker 2: you haven't processed yet that is now being imposed onto
[24:28] Speaker 2: the present. So for example, maybe you get some negative
[24:31] Speaker 2: feedback from your boss. All of a sudden you feel
[24:35] Speaker 2: rage or you feel like I need to quit this
[24:37] Speaker 2: job because you're having a strong reaction because maybe you're
[24:40] Speaker 2: reactivating a parent who was rageful all the time and
[24:45] Speaker 2: was exploding on you, right? And so we also need
[24:48] Speaker 2: to deal with these implicit memories, which are literally like
[24:52] Speaker 2: our feelings and our reactions to things. When we have
[24:55] Speaker 2: a feeling or reaction that feels like out of proportion,
[24:58] Speaker 2: why is this so strong? Where is it coming from?
[25:00] Speaker 2: It feels like it's coming out of nowhere. That is
[25:02] Speaker 2: an example of an implicit memory. And so I share
[25:06] Speaker 2: that because I think we often are so self-shaming when
[25:10] Speaker 2: we're like, I'm reacting so strongly. I'm too sensitive, right?
[25:13] Speaker 2: But that's literally how our bodies were built. Like implicit
[25:16] Speaker 2: memories were made to keep us safe. And all of
[25:20] Speaker 2: us have implicit memories. It's not something to shame yourself
[25:23] Speaker 2: for when you're having that strong emotion. Like there was
[25:25] Speaker 2: a study that found that women that had been through
[25:28] Speaker 2: a sexual assault had even gone to the hospital and
[25:30] Speaker 2: reported that assault. One third of them didn't remember that
[25:33] Speaker 2: that happened like over a decade later. And so All
[25:36] Speaker 2: of us, this is how our brains work. If you're
[25:38] Speaker 2: getting triggered and you don't know why, it doesn't mean
[25:40] Speaker 2: that you should be ashamed of yourself. It's literally how
[25:43] Speaker 2: our brains work. Now, to get full circle, back to
[25:45] Speaker 2: your question about somatic experiencing, how the heck do you
[25:48] Speaker 2: heal a memory that you don't remember that's literally just
[25:52] Speaker 2: a sudden urge to get really aggressive or a lump
[25:55] Speaker 2: in your throat or a feeling that you're going to
[25:56] Speaker 2: cry all of a sudden or completely shutting down? How
[25:59] Speaker 2: do you heal those memories? Well, you have to really
[26:03] Speaker 2: get into the body. You have to get into the body.
[26:06] Speaker 2: And this is where I rely on the work of
[26:08] Speaker 2: the trauma specialist, Peter Levine. And he sees how the
[26:12] Speaker 2: gazelle gets caught in the tiger's paw and it escapes
[26:16] Speaker 2: and it doesn't get traumatized. And why don't these wild
[26:18] Speaker 2: animals get traumatized? Because they shake and they shake almost
[26:21] Speaker 2: like they're being electrocuted. And then He thinks of trauma
[26:25] Speaker 2: as excess energy stored in the body that these animals
[26:27] Speaker 2: are able to release that energy. But we as humans,
[26:30] Speaker 2: because we have this prefrontal cortex that can shut down
[26:33] Speaker 2: our ability to like release through the body. Our version
[26:35] Speaker 2: of shaking is like, we literally notice what's happening in
[26:39] Speaker 2: our body. I feel this lump in my throat. I
[26:41] Speaker 2: feel this tightness in my chest and we focus on it.
[26:44] Speaker 2: And as we do, we actually feel that sensation begin
[26:47] Speaker 2: to move through the body. And that's the energy of
[26:50] Speaker 2: the trigger kind of releasing out of you.
[26:52] Speaker 1: And so is there an exercise that you can share
[26:55] Speaker 1: from the book that is helpful for these kinds of experiences?
[26:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. I share in the book Peter Levine's
[27:03] Speaker 2: tracking exercise and another one called Focusing by Dr. Genlin.
[27:09] Speaker 2: And so the tracking exercise is similar to what I
[27:11] Speaker 2: said before, which is like you focus on the emotion
[27:14] Speaker 2: and you just focus on wherever you're feeling a strong
[27:16] Speaker 2: sensation in your body. as it moves through you. And
[27:20] Speaker 2: you might have to focus on what it feels like
[27:22] Speaker 2: to feel safe and switch between that feeling of safety
[27:25] Speaker 2: back to the emotion in your body, safety back to
[27:27] Speaker 2: the emotion in your body. And the focusing activity involves
[27:31] Speaker 2: focusing on your body and what you feel and giving
[27:34] Speaker 2: yourself a word to label it. So I feel this
[27:36] Speaker 2: tightness in my chest. I feel terrified. And then comparing
[27:40] Speaker 2: that word to the sensation in your body until you
[27:43] Speaker 2: feel that the sensation actually goes down and starts to
[27:47] Speaker 2: melt away a little bit. So these are just some examples.
[27:50] Speaker 2: And again, there's many different exercises in the book of
[27:53] Speaker 2: memory reconsolidation activities we could practice in real time. And
[27:56] Speaker 2: I practice these literally every day, Dr. Joy, literally every day.
[28:01] Speaker 1: I'm curious, Dr. Franco, because I don't know that I
[28:04] Speaker 1: would necessarily think, I mean, this is not my book.
[28:07] Speaker 1: So I don't know if you knew you were heading
[28:08] Speaker 1: here when you were preparing to write the book, but
[28:11] Speaker 1: I would not have connected worth to memory work. And
[28:14] Speaker 1: so it's a really interesting thing. So what do you
[28:16] Speaker 1: feel like you were most fascinated by in thinking through
[28:19] Speaker 1: this theory?
[28:21] Speaker 2: Well, you know, it took me a long time to
[28:24] Speaker 2: go from what the heck? It doesn't make sense. These
[28:27] Speaker 2: people with low self-esteem are literally rejecting all the things
[28:29] Speaker 2: that should make them feel better. If they give themselves
[28:32] Speaker 2: affirmation of like, may I feel love, they feel worse after.
[28:36] Speaker 2: If positive events happen to them months later, they actually
[28:38] Speaker 2: feel sicker. How does this make any sense? Why when
[28:42] Speaker 2: we feel unworthy, do we have this inability to process love?
[28:46] Speaker 2: And so I had to really read so broadly across
[28:49] Speaker 2: the literature on worth to really understand that the root
[28:53] Speaker 2: causes the memory. But Some things that surprised me, I think,
[28:56] Speaker 2: while writing Worth, this related to a chapter on psychedelics,
[29:00] Speaker 2: was like, what is kind of the end goal of Worth?
[29:03] Speaker 2: Like Abraham Maslow, folks are familiar with him, Hierarchy of Needs.
[29:06] Speaker 2: He talks about self-actualization. But I found it really compelling
[29:10] Speaker 2: to learn that the end goal of self-worth is actually
[29:15] Speaker 2: in a way to not know who you are. what
[29:18] Speaker 2: do I mean by that? Often we have this perception
[29:22] Speaker 2: of who we are, maybe like I'm the strong one, right?
[29:26] Speaker 2: And if we feel weak, we are then basically amputating
[29:31] Speaker 2: those emotions so that we don't threaten our rigid sense
[29:34] Speaker 2: of identity. And so Robin Carhart-Harris, he does a lot
[29:37] Speaker 2: of research on psychedelics. He says that the reason our
[29:40] Speaker 2: identities are so rigid is because we experience something very
[29:43] Speaker 2: chaotic and we want to find a way to make
[29:46] Speaker 2: things more predictable and to make things more controllable. And
[29:49] Speaker 2: so what we do is if the world is so uncontrollable,
[29:52] Speaker 2: I become predictable. You know, I am now the strong
[29:55] Speaker 2: one or I am now the good one, the good person, right?
[29:59] Speaker 2: And if you think about low self-worth, in a way,
[30:01] Speaker 2: it's about knowing yourself too much that despite other people
[30:04] Speaker 2: loving you and accepting you and the success that you have,
[30:06] Speaker 2: you still are convinced this theory that I'm unworthy, I'm rejectable, right?
[30:11] Speaker 2: And so actually escaping that, escaping into a place of
[30:14] Speaker 2: like greater worth is I don't necessarily know who I am.
[30:19] Speaker 2: And in each moment, I give myself room to to
[30:23] Speaker 2: experience emotions, feelings that might not match my sense of
[30:26] Speaker 2: who I am. And then I can allow myself to
[30:29] Speaker 2: sort of redevelop an identity that better actually matches my
[30:32] Speaker 2: own internal experience. And that makes sense from the memory standpoint, right?
[30:36] Speaker 2: If these unprocessed memories keep predicting a future of harm,
[30:40] Speaker 2: then if you worked on a lot of them, and
[30:42] Speaker 2: I don't know if any of us are going to
[30:43] Speaker 2: get there, and then they wouldn't be predicting this future
[30:45] Speaker 2: of harm, all that would be present is possibility, living
[30:48] Speaker 2: in a place of possibility, living in a place where
[30:51] Speaker 2: no matter who I am, no matter what I feel,
[30:53] Speaker 2: I have high regard for myself. I don't need to
[30:56] Speaker 2: be this person I've always been. I don't need to
[30:58] Speaker 2: be particularly attractive. I don't need to have a particular
[31:01] Speaker 2: marital status. I don't need to be the CEO. to
[31:04] Speaker 2: feel worthy. I have high regard for myself no matter
[31:06] Speaker 2: who I am. And I allow myself to have a
[31:09] Speaker 2: new experience of self that doesn't match the past. And
[31:11] Speaker 2: so not knowing yourself, that has really helped me just
[31:15] Speaker 2: in like a little way. I've had a sprained ankle
[31:17] Speaker 2: for like 10 months before that I was running, surfing, dancing.
[31:22] Speaker 2: And it's been a lot easier writing that chapter and
[31:25] Speaker 2: being like, I don't have to be who I was.
[31:26] Speaker 2: I don't have to still be a runner. I don't
[31:28] Speaker 2: have to still be observing like this version of life
[31:31] Speaker 2: has opportunities for me too. And like, who am I now?
[31:33] Speaker 2: What is my capacity now? What can I do now?
[31:36] Speaker 2: So that knowing that like, you don't have to know
[31:38] Speaker 2: who you are. You don't have to be who you've
[31:40] Speaker 2: always been. You can kind of keep recreating yourself because
[31:42] Speaker 2: each moment is a fresh moment. Each moment brings up
[31:44] Speaker 2: new things inside of you. And that is absolutely okay.
[31:48] Speaker 2: I felt very freeing and very liberating.
[31:52] Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. You know, you
[32:03] Speaker 1: mentioned like how some of this work you might want
[32:06] Speaker 1: to do with a therapist, given that you may be
[32:08] Speaker 1: going back to tracing some, you know, pretty difficult memories
[32:12] Speaker 1: and experiences. Is there anything else that you think is
[32:15] Speaker 1: like a precursor to maybe some of the things that
[32:17] Speaker 1: you're suggesting in the book or things people should be
[32:19] Speaker 1: mindful of?
[32:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think what I'm speaking about, which is
[32:23] Speaker 2: in terms of like accessing all of your emotions and
[32:26] Speaker 2: having that be okay. The whole reason we avoid emotions
[32:30] Speaker 2: is because we often feel so overwhelmed by them or
[32:32] Speaker 2: we're going to collapse or like we need to numb
[32:36] Speaker 2: out because we're so burdened by these emotions. So it's
[32:39] Speaker 2: not just about accessing your emotions. It's really about accessing
[32:43] Speaker 2: them from a centered place, from a state of groundedness.
[32:47] Speaker 2: And so I think the first step before you go
[32:49] Speaker 2: into all of this work is can you feel grounded
[32:53] Speaker 2: in yourself? Can you feel safe in yourself? Can you...
[32:58] Speaker 2: find a way to like, I guess, sense in your body,
[33:00] Speaker 2: what does safety feel like for you? And sometimes you
[33:04] Speaker 2: might need a therapist for that. Or I did the
[33:06] Speaker 2: whole book activities with friends and that's okay. But like,
[33:08] Speaker 2: can you access safety? I think that is the precursor
[33:12] Speaker 2: to then being able to go out there and acknowledge
[33:15] Speaker 2: all of these feelings that you might've pushed away. Because
[33:17] Speaker 2: the idea is that you want to regulate those feelings.
[33:20] Speaker 2: You want to offer care. You want to offer support.
[33:23] Speaker 2: You don't want them to overwhelm you and put you
[33:25] Speaker 2: in a state of dysregulation. So safety is, I think,
[33:27] Speaker 2: the important prequel.
[33:30] Speaker 1: Something else that you talk about in the book is
[33:32] Speaker 1: identity stretching. Can you say more about what that is?
[33:35] Speaker 2: OK, so this was my chapter on stigma. And I
[33:39] Speaker 2: was like, OK, how do we work with memories of
[33:41] Speaker 2: stigma where, you know, we might have an identity, obviously
[33:44] Speaker 2: Black women, where it's clear that in society we are
[33:47] Speaker 2: perceived as less than. And I pulled from this criminologist
[33:51] Speaker 2: who studied criminals and who one of the factors he
[33:55] Speaker 2: looked at for like what predicted whether these sort of
[33:58] Speaker 2: ex-criminals continued to engage in recidivism, continued to commit crimes,
[34:03] Speaker 2: or whether they did not. And he found that one
[34:06] Speaker 2: of the biggest predictors was whether they can see themselves
[34:10] Speaker 2: as more than a criminal. There were people that were like,
[34:12] Speaker 2: I'm just a thief at the end of the day.
[34:13] Speaker 2: I'm always going to be a dope head. And he
[34:15] Speaker 2: even remembered, he even suggested that after we should have
[34:20] Speaker 2: these status elevation ceremonies where after people are released from prison,
[34:25] Speaker 2: we gather as a society to formally accept them back
[34:28] Speaker 2: into society and to accept sort of like positive rapport
[34:32] Speaker 2: with them moving forward. And so what he's doing in
[34:35] Speaker 2: that moment is stretching out that sense of identity for
[34:39] Speaker 2: that person. So they're not like, I'm just a criminal.
[34:41] Speaker 2: They have this memory of people seeing themselves as now
[34:43] Speaker 2: a positive contributing citizen in the community in which they're
[34:47] Speaker 2: returning into. And so that made me think, like, really,
[34:51] Speaker 2: when it comes to a stigmatized identity, we can either
[34:54] Speaker 2: stretch ourselves beyond that stigmatized identity, like I'm more than
[34:56] Speaker 2: a criminal, or we can stretch that stigmatized identity to
[35:00] Speaker 2: mean more than something negative, which is, I think, what
[35:03] Speaker 2: you do here with Therapy for Black Girls, like, Being
[35:05] Speaker 2: a Black woman is powerful. It's empowering. It creates a
[35:08] Speaker 2: sense of community. It creates a sense of sisterhood, right?
[35:11] Speaker 2: Like all of those sort of positive aspects of an
[35:14] Speaker 2: identity that we have been taught to see as devalued.
[35:17] Speaker 2: And so that's really important for not feeling like because
[35:20] Speaker 2: I have this sense of identity, I'm less than, I'm inferior, right?
[35:24] Speaker 2: And that's the importance of representation. That's the importance of
[35:27] Speaker 2: exposing ourselves to more positive images, exposing ourselves to people
[35:30] Speaker 2: that look like us because all of those things are
[35:33] Speaker 2: acts of identity stretching, which offer counter memories to the
[35:37] Speaker 2: negative experiences that we're constantly exposed to when we have
[35:39] Speaker 2: a more stigmatized identity.
[35:42] Speaker 1: One of the other ways I love that you kind
[35:44] Speaker 1: of talk about like racism is that you cite Toni
[35:47] Speaker 1: Morrison's work in the book and her observations that the
[35:50] Speaker 1: function of racism is distraction. As an expansion of that,
[35:54] Speaker 1: you talk about the cost of stigma is not just
[35:56] Speaker 1: that it causes us to see a part of ourselves negatively.
[35:58] Speaker 1: The greater cost, I'm convinced, is that we are stuck
[36:01] Speaker 1: chronically evaluating ourselves, measuring ourselves against an ideal decreed by
[36:05] Speaker 1: our stigmatizers. So can you give some examples of how
[36:09] Speaker 1: chronic self-evaluation might look in our daily lives?
[36:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So for the book, I interviewed someone who
[36:17] Speaker 2: had a bigger body. She had disabilities in her life
[36:19] Speaker 2: and she gained about 80 pounds. And so all day
[36:22] Speaker 2: she's thinking about, does my body look weird as I
[36:25] Speaker 2: sit up? How do I look in the mirror? How
[36:28] Speaker 2: do these outfits look on me? Does my body look okay?
[36:32] Speaker 2: Should I exercise? Am I less than because I can't
[36:35] Speaker 2: exercise today, right? It's almost like she's under the microscope
[36:38] Speaker 2: to herself, right? And so I also quote Invisible Man,
[36:42] Speaker 2: Ralph Ellison, because he talks about eating watermelon around white
[36:44] Speaker 2: people and being like, what are these white people going
[36:46] Speaker 2: to think about me eating watermelon? And like, That's how
[36:48] Speaker 2: stigma manifests. I thought of it as just like feeling
[36:51] Speaker 2: negatively about yourself, but it's actually turning yourself into an
[36:54] Speaker 2: object internally where I'm constantly thinking about myself as someone,
[36:58] Speaker 2: it's like double consciousness too, as someone that is conscious
[37:01] Speaker 2: of everybody's reaction to me at every given time and
[37:04] Speaker 2: how they're perceiving me in light of the stigma. So
[37:07] Speaker 2: I no longer get to be who I am. I
[37:09] Speaker 2: no longer get to freely decide what I eat in public.
[37:12] Speaker 2: I no longer get to freely move my body in
[37:14] Speaker 2: that workout class because all I'm thinking about is everybody
[37:17] Speaker 2: looking at me because I'm the largest person in this class, right?
[37:20] Speaker 2: I'm no longer able to get the haircut that I
[37:23] Speaker 2: want because I think You know, is this going to
[37:24] Speaker 2: make me look more queer? It's constantly like you become
[37:27] Speaker 2: that object to yourself. You are constantly evaluating yourself against
[37:31] Speaker 2: the gaze of the stigmatizer. Whereas I'm thinking of self-worth
[37:35] Speaker 2: as your gaze comes first. And obviously there's something way
[37:38] Speaker 2: that we have to do that to feel safe in
[37:39] Speaker 2: a given environment, but to also be in touch with
[37:42] Speaker 2: your own gaze and how you feel about your identity.
[37:45] Speaker 2: And hopefully you're stretching your identity, also see something positive.
[37:48] Speaker 2: And I think another thing that fascinated me in that chapter, Dr. Joy,
[37:52] Speaker 2: was like, We think of stigma, shame, as something that
[37:56] Speaker 2: is inherent, right? And this is like a philosopher talking
[37:59] Speaker 2: about the foundational story of Adam and Eve. They realized
[38:03] Speaker 2: they were naked and that was shameful. And there was no,
[38:05] Speaker 2: someone had to come by and be like, I can't
[38:07] Speaker 2: believe you're naked, like put on a leaf, right? And
[38:10] Speaker 2: that story almost tells us that shame is just an
[38:12] Speaker 2: inherent thing that we all know and understand as shameful.
[38:16] Speaker 2: But that's absolutely untrue. what is considered shameful in our
[38:19] Speaker 2: society are things that threaten the social order. But maybe
[38:23] Speaker 2: the social order needs to be threatened. Maybe the problem
[38:25] Speaker 2: is the social order, not the people that are existing
[38:27] Speaker 2: in violation of it. So for example, we shame poor
[38:30] Speaker 2: people because we have this neoliberal society that's like, we
[38:32] Speaker 2: shouldn't help people. We shouldn't give people social safety nets.
[38:35] Speaker 2: And now you're a loser if you can't make it
[38:37] Speaker 2: on your own. And you're poor, you pull yourself up
[38:39] Speaker 2: by your bootstraps. And so I think that's also helpful
[38:42] Speaker 2: for all of us that are internalizing this stigma is
[38:44] Speaker 2: we might think it's natural or normal, But no stigma
[38:48] Speaker 2: is natural or normal. It's something that we have received
[38:52] Speaker 2: from society. And again, maybe the problem isn't us existing
[38:56] Speaker 2: as we are. Maybe the problem is as a society,
[38:59] Speaker 2: we need to expand to better be inclusive of more
[39:02] Speaker 2: people as they are authentically showing it.
[39:05] Speaker 1: You know, as we've been talking, Dr. Franco, I think
[39:08] Speaker 1: about like some of the things that as Black parents,
[39:11] Speaker 1: we do to create a barrier for our kids against
[39:14] Speaker 1: like a racist society, right? All the isms society, right?
[39:17] Speaker 1: Like we will often feed them affirmations and have them
[39:20] Speaker 1: repeat affirmations. And I tend to think that like there
[39:24] Speaker 1: is a conscientious, intentional effort to kind of make Black
[39:27] Speaker 1: kids very confident, right? Like I think that that is
[39:30] Speaker 1: something that we often are kind of over-focused on and
[39:33] Speaker 1: like giving them this because we know the world is
[39:35] Speaker 1: going to try to break them down. But some of
[39:37] Speaker 1: the things that you've talked about today is how being
[39:40] Speaker 1: confident is not necessarily the same as an inherent feeling
[39:44] Speaker 1: of worth. So can you talk about like maybe some
[39:46] Speaker 1: of the things we might be missing in And maybe
[39:49] Speaker 1: kind of over-indexing on helping kids to be confident. Yeah.
[39:53] Speaker 2: Well, I think of worth as really dealing with what's
[39:57] Speaker 2: real in yourself and others and being supportive and allowing
[40:01] Speaker 2: and validating of what's real. And I think sometimes if
[40:04] Speaker 2: you're really over-indexing on like, you're beautiful and you're perfect
[40:07] Speaker 2: and everything's great, it might distract from like, what's the
[40:11] Speaker 2: kid actually feeling? Maybe they have internalized some of the stigma.
[40:14] Speaker 2: Maybe they do feel bad about their hair. Maybe they
[40:16] Speaker 2: do feel bad about their skin color. And sometimes if like,
[40:19] Speaker 2: I guess I've seen this a lot in the body
[40:21] Speaker 2: positivity movement where then people feel bad about feeling bad
[40:25] Speaker 2: and it adds this other layer.
[40:26] Speaker 1: Right.
[40:27] Speaker 2: But instead to say, it's okay that my kid is
[40:30] Speaker 2: feeling this way. It even makes sense in the society
[40:33] Speaker 2: in which we live it. Right. And so not like,
[40:36] Speaker 2: I don't ever want to hear you talk like that
[40:37] Speaker 2: about your hair, but instead hey, where did you learn that?
[40:41] Speaker 2: How does that feel for you? What is that like
[40:43] Speaker 2: for you? And here's how like the society is presenting
[40:46] Speaker 2: so many things to us that make it really make
[40:48] Speaker 2: sense that you're not always feeling good about yourself. And
[40:51] Speaker 2: so offering that validation and that understanding of their world.
[40:55] Speaker 2: And then I think the affirmation can hit in a
[40:58] Speaker 2: more sort of targeted place where you can offer an
[41:01] Speaker 2: affirmation that's specific to what their struggles are. And the
[41:03] Speaker 2: thing about affirmations, when I said like affirmations, people that
[41:07] Speaker 2: have low self-esteem actually feel worse about affirmations is because
[41:09] Speaker 2: it's an inaccessible affirmation. And so offering our kid an
[41:13] Speaker 2: accessible affirmation, maybe they can't get to like, I'm a queen,
[41:16] Speaker 2: but maybe they can get to people like me. And
[41:19] Speaker 2: these are the qualities about me that people really like.
[41:23] Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I appreciate you offering that. So
[41:26] Speaker 1: I'm curious, post writing the book, thinking about the book
[41:29] Speaker 1: coming out, what does secure-ish feel like for you right now?
[41:34] Speaker 2: Secure-ish means that I'm not secure all the time and
[41:38] Speaker 2: that's okay. Secure-ish means I'm more invested in knowing who
[41:42] Speaker 2: I am than trying to be a certain type of person.
[41:46] Speaker 2: Secure-ish means that I allow myself to not like what
[41:50] Speaker 2: I used to like, to not feel like the people
[41:53] Speaker 2: that I connect to most now have to be the
[41:55] Speaker 2: connections that I felt most connected to in the past.
[41:59] Speaker 2: Because I was an over-functioner, secure-ish means that I am
[42:03] Speaker 2: no longer willing to do things to stay in relationship
[42:05] Speaker 2: with other people if it involves sacrificing myself. And so
[42:08] Speaker 2: I'm actually a little less conciliatory than I used to
[42:11] Speaker 2: be because I realized that when you're more authentic and
[42:15] Speaker 2: attuned to yourself, that sometimes that's going to create more
[42:18] Speaker 2: tension with people and that being okay because... My primary
[42:22] Speaker 2: relationship is my relationship with myself. And secure-ish means that
[42:26] Speaker 2: at some point in my life, I may feel a
[42:28] Speaker 2: lot less secure. And I'm not going to make myself
[42:31] Speaker 2: feel bad about that. I understand that as part of
[42:34] Speaker 2: our lives, our sense of security will move up and down.
[42:36] Speaker 2: And I'm going to try to have high regard for myself,
[42:39] Speaker 2: even when I feel really bad. And I'll share like
[42:42] Speaker 2: this last story that I think really gets at what
[42:44] Speaker 2: secure-ish and worth mean. I was talking to a friend
[42:47] Speaker 2: of mine who's another professor and I was telling him
[42:50] Speaker 2: all about worth. And he was like, well, worthiness, that
[42:54] Speaker 2: sounds like you're still evaluating yourself. What you're saying to me,
[42:59] Speaker 2: it sounds like you're trying to get beyond a place
[43:01] Speaker 2: of evaluating yourself. And I said to Stephen, you're right. Like,
[43:05] Speaker 2: I'm not trying to get people to a place where
[43:06] Speaker 2: they're saying I am worthy. I'm actually trying to get
[43:10] Speaker 2: them to a place where they're saying I am. I am.
[43:13] Speaker 1: Thank you for that. You know, we kind of opened
[43:16] Speaker 1: this conversation talking about how Black women tend to be
[43:19] Speaker 1: over-functioners and self-abandoning. And I think one of the other
[43:22] Speaker 1: things that we do in terms of over-functioning is like
[43:25] Speaker 1: really throwing ourselves into career and like success metrics, right?
[43:28] Speaker 1: Like I'm going to go after this promotion and I'm
[43:30] Speaker 1: going to do all of these things. But there's also
[43:32] Speaker 1: all this research that talks about like how that doesn't
[43:35] Speaker 1: actually make us feel more worthy or confident. So what
[43:39] Speaker 1: would you say to our like chronic overachievers, high achieving
[43:42] Speaker 1: Black women, who find themselves in this trap of thinking
[43:46] Speaker 1: that success is going to be the thing that finally
[43:48] Speaker 1: makes me feel worthy?
[43:50] Speaker 2: Well, as one of them, I can say that when
[43:54] Speaker 2: I'm caught up in the trap of success, it's because
[43:58] Speaker 2: if I don't succeed, there is a negative emotion that
[44:02] Speaker 2: I don't want to feel. You I'm not worthy or
[44:09] Speaker 2: even like I always need to focus on something as
[44:11] Speaker 2: a way to escape feelings. Or if I'm not successful,
[44:16] Speaker 2: I won't be safe. And that's, I think, a relatable one,
[44:20] Speaker 2: particularly for people that cope with economic insecurity. And instead
[44:23] Speaker 2: of compulsively trying to be successful, to cope with those feelings,
[44:29] Speaker 2: can you actually turn towards and welcome those feelings? Can
[44:33] Speaker 2: you welcome and feel safe? okay, I'm scared to feel
[44:36] Speaker 2: like a failure. Let me sit with that. What comes
[44:39] Speaker 2: up in my body when I think about feeling, oh
[44:41] Speaker 2: my God, like it feels like so much pressure in
[44:44] Speaker 2: my chest. And the longer you sit with it, the
[44:46] Speaker 2: less it's going to overtake you and hijack you. And
[44:49] Speaker 2: so my advice for the hyperachiever is that you have
[44:52] Speaker 2: to feel because the hyperachieving is often coming from a
[44:55] Speaker 2: place of trying not to feel through the act of achievement.
[45:00] Speaker 2: And I also love what you said, Dr. Joy, because
[45:03] Speaker 2: The truth is you can spend your whole life climbing
[45:06] Speaker 2: a ladder, this is a quote I've heard, only to
[45:08] Speaker 2: realize that it was up against the wrong wall. And
[45:10] Speaker 2: I think when it's a wall that society has given
[45:13] Speaker 2: us that I need to be a CEO or I
[45:17] Speaker 2: need to, you know, have the white ticket fence with
[45:20] Speaker 2: my 2.5 kids and my husband, right? Like when it's
[45:23] Speaker 2: a wall society has given us, we're never actually going
[45:27] Speaker 2: to feel the worth that we're hoping for. When it's
[45:31] Speaker 2: a ladder that we have turned inside and asked ourselves,
[45:34] Speaker 2: what makes me feel joyful? What makes me feel authentic?
[45:37] Speaker 2: What makes me feel most like myself? Then I think
[45:40] Speaker 2: that we've actually found a ladder that is worth climbing,
[45:44] Speaker 2: which is moving towards who we are more deeply. Even if, hey,
[45:48] Speaker 2: I'm not going to decide to be a teacher instead
[45:50] Speaker 2: of a CEO. Even if, hey, I've decided that I
[45:53] Speaker 2: don't want to get married and I would rather travel
[45:55] Speaker 2: the world, right? Even if we are violating society's expectations
[45:59] Speaker 2: of us.
[46:00] Speaker 1: Hmm. So Worth is out on September 15th. How are
[46:04] Speaker 1: you hoping for people to interact with the book?
[46:07] Speaker 2: So every chapter actually has like research backed exercises that
[46:10] Speaker 2: you could do to improve your sense of worth. I
[46:12] Speaker 2: just really wrote this book because there's so many of us, Dr. Joy,
[46:17] Speaker 2: and you know us because we're your audience who are
[46:19] Speaker 2: just like trying so hard to like heal, heal, heal, heal.
[46:23] Speaker 2: Let's try so hard to heal. What do we have
[46:25] Speaker 2: to do next to heal, heal, heal? And I've also
[46:27] Speaker 2: been one of them and feeling like, oh my God,
[46:30] Speaker 2: I'm learning to do all of the right things. But
[46:32] Speaker 2: for some reason, I still feel empty inside. I still
[46:36] Speaker 2: feel so depressed and there's no way out, right? It
[46:38] Speaker 2: feels like there's no way out. It feels like I
[46:40] Speaker 2: just keep trying. I wrote Worth for them. I wrote
[46:43] Speaker 2: Worth both to give them a way out, but also
[46:45] Speaker 2: to tell them that even if you don't find a
[46:49] Speaker 2: way out, you're going to be okay exactly as you are.
[46:52] Speaker 2: Like you could be exactly where you are and that
[46:55] Speaker 2: can be okay. And so I want to write that
[46:58] Speaker 2: for all of us who hear that and are like, yeah,
[47:01] Speaker 2: like that's been me.
[47:03] Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious, Dr. Franco, I'm sure that there
[47:04] Speaker 1: were a million different directions you could have gone after platonic. Like,
[47:09] Speaker 1: how did you end up at Worth?
[47:10] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Well, I feel like I allude to
[47:13] Speaker 2: in the book, like I was simultaneously doing my own
[47:15] Speaker 2: journey of Worth, which I wouldn't have described it that
[47:18] Speaker 2: way at the beginning. because I thought I felt so worthy.
[47:23] Speaker 2: But I was just ignoring the parts of myself that
[47:26] Speaker 2: didn't feel worthy. And like, it's almost like if you
[47:28] Speaker 2: asked me if I felt worthy, I wouldn't even check
[47:30] Speaker 2: in with myself to be like, oh, where do I feel?
[47:33] Speaker 2: Where am I feeling? I would just say it. I
[47:36] Speaker 2: would compulsively tell you because I've learned that that's what'll
[47:40] Speaker 2: make me loved if I'm just a worthy person. So
[47:43] Speaker 2: I was more invested in portraying myself a certain way
[47:47] Speaker 2: than I was in being who I actually am. And
[47:50] Speaker 2: so I actually, the book starts with, and multiple people
[47:55] Speaker 2: on the podcast I've been on have asked me about
[47:57] Speaker 2: who this person is because the dedication is, to Alyssa,
[48:01] Speaker 2: for a love so unyielding that it made even the
[48:04] Speaker 2: darkest parts of me fathom there was light and for
[48:06] Speaker 2: helping me become who I always was. Alyssa is my therapist.
[48:12] Speaker 2: So I have been simultaneously on this journey of worth.
[48:15] Speaker 2: And it was so funny when I first wrote the book,
[48:16] Speaker 2: I was like, Alyssa, who am I to write a
[48:19] Speaker 2: book on worth? Do I feel worthy enough? And now
[48:22] Speaker 2: being like, yeah, I've always been worthy. We've always been worthy.
[48:25] Speaker 2: And being worthy isn't about being perfect or having achieved
[48:28] Speaker 2: everything or feeling like you're never triggered or you always
[48:30] Speaker 2: say the right thing at the right time. And you
[48:33] Speaker 2: always stand up for yourself and know how to advocate
[48:35] Speaker 2: for yourself. Being worthy is about recognizing that whoever I
[48:38] Speaker 2: am right now is okay. And even if I don't
[48:41] Speaker 2: feel worthy, that's also okay. And just allowing yourself to
[48:44] Speaker 2: be exactly where you were. And that made me feel
[48:46] Speaker 2: worthy enough to write a book on Worth.
[48:49] Speaker 1: I love that. So let us know, where can we
[48:51] Speaker 1: stay connected with you? Where can we grab our copy
[48:53] Speaker 1: of Worth? Yeah.
[48:55] Speaker 2: Well, first I want to say thank you so much
[48:56] Speaker 2: for this interview, Dr.
[48:57] Speaker 1: Joy.
[48:57] Speaker 2: You're such a good interviewer. You ask such great questions.
[49:00] Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm like, okay, let me really think about
[49:04] Speaker 2: this one.
[49:04] Speaker 1: Okay.
[49:08] Speaker 2: OK, so the book Worth the New Science of Self-Esteem
[49:12] Speaker 2: and Secure Attachment available wherever books are sold. I share
[49:15] Speaker 2: tips on the science of connecting with self and others
[49:18] Speaker 2: on my Instagram at Dr. Morales. that's D-R-M-A-R-I-S-A-G-F-R-A-N-C-O. And on
[49:26] Speaker 2: my website, DrMarisaGFranco.com, you can get a list of practices
[49:31] Speaker 2: to engage in to feel more worthy, or you can
[49:34] Speaker 2: reach out for speaking events on self-worth resilience during uncertain
[49:39] Speaker 2: times at work on my website as well.
[49:41] Speaker 1: And will there be a tour, Dr. Frankel? Can we
[49:43] Speaker 1: see you in person for work?
[49:45] Speaker 2: Yes, there will be a tour. I would say sign
[49:47] Speaker 2: up for my newsletter called Attached on Substack for details
[49:51] Speaker 2: on the tour.
[49:52] Speaker 1: Perfect. We'll be sure to include all of that in
[49:54] Speaker 1: our show notes. Thank you for spending some time with
[49:56] Speaker 1: us again today, Dr. Frankel. I appreciate it.
[49:58] Speaker 2: My pleasure, Dr.
[49:59] Speaker 1: Joy.
[49:59] Speaker 2: Thank you.
[50:00] Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so thankful Dr. Franco was able to
[50:06] Speaker 1: join us for this wonderful conversation. To learn more about
[50:09] Speaker 1: her or to grab your copy of Worth, be sure
[50:12] Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com slash session 481.
[50:17] Speaker 1: And don't forget to text this episode to two of
[50:19] Speaker 1: your girls right now and tell them to check it out.
[50:22] Speaker 1: Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail
[50:23] Speaker 1: with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you
[50:26] Speaker 1: have ideas about topics we should discuss, drop us a
[50:29] Speaker 1: message at memo.fm slash therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's
[50:33] Speaker 1: on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast.
[50:36] Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit
[50:39] Speaker 1: our therapist directory at therapyforblackgirls.com slash directory. Don't forget to
[50:44] Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at therapyforblackgirls. And come on over
[50:48] Speaker 1: and join us in our Patreon community for exclusive updates,
[50:51] Speaker 1: behind the scenes content, and much more. You can join
[50:54] Speaker 1: us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Ndechubu,
[51:00] Speaker 1: and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank
[51:04] Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
[51:06] Speaker 1: look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
[51:10] Speaker 1: Take good care.

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