# Session 483: "You'll Change Your Mind" and Other Things to Stop Saying to Child Free Women

An episode of [Therapy for Black Girls](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1223803641), 30 Sep 2026, 49 min.

Audio: https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/2a22ac04-0eb4-4aad-8dc2-ae270179efb9/af0123f5-5440-47d5-b9c8-b4d5002343a3/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=2d42d89c-4962-4760-a616-ae270179efd5

"You'll change your mind." "Who's going to take care of you when you're older?" Black women who say they don't want children hear some version of this constantly, and the decision often gets treated as a betrayal of family and community. Today we're joined by licensed clinical psychologist Dr. Lana Holmes to talk about why a personal choice draws so much outside commentary. Dr. Lana and I chatted about the difference between being child free and being childless, how the legacy of chattel slavery and domestic work still shapes what's expected of Black women's bodies, what dating looks like when you know kids aren't part of your plan, and the missing supports (childcare, perinatal care, safety) that have more people questioning whether parenthood is for them. She also shares what being child free has made room for in her own life. In this episode: • Why "I don't want kids" gets heard as a personal attack, and how cisheteropatriarchy and misogynoir feed that reaction • What gets lost when we collapse child free and childless into one category • The strong Black woman and mammy archetypes, and the expectation that Black women will mother at work and in community whether or not they have children • Vetting partners while dating, plus a script for telling mom and the aunties • What to weigh if you're still deciding, starting with your gut response and moving into the support you can count on About the Podcast The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. Resources & Announcements Want to reflect on this conversation in community? Join us inside our Patreon community where we’re unpacking this episode together. You can now catch episodes of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast? If you have a question you'd like some feedback on, topics you'd like to hear covered, or want to suggest movies or books for us to review, drop us a message at memo.fm/therapyforblackgirls and let us know what’s on your mind. We just might share it on the podcast. Grab your copy of Sisterhood Heals. Connect with Dr. Joy on Instagram. Where to Find Our Guest Website: https://www.inclusivetherapywellness.com/lana Stay Connected Is there a topic you'd like covered on the podcast? Submit it at therapyforblackgirls.com/mailbox. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check out the directory at https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/directory. Grab your copy of our guided affirmation and other TBG Merch at therapyforblackgirls.com/shop. The hashtag for the podcast is #TBGinSession. Make sure to follow us on social media: Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls Facebook: @therapyforblackgirls Our Production Team Executive Producers: Dennison Bradford & Gabrielle Collins Director of Podcast & Digital Content: Ellice Ellis Producer: Ndeye Thioubou Production Assistant: Bria Mosley See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:10] Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
[0:14] Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
[0:19] Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
[0:22] Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed
[0:27] Speaker 1: psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find
[0:32] Speaker 1: a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com.
[0:38] Speaker 1: While I hope you love listening to and learning from
[0:41] Speaker 1: the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute
[0:45] Speaker 1: for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all,
[0:56] Speaker 1: it's Dr. Joy, and I'm so glad you're spending some
[0:59] Speaker 1: time with us today. You're listening to session 483 of
[1:02] Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Now, if you've ever
[1:05] Speaker 1: been at a family cookout and somebody asks when you're
[1:07] Speaker 1: going to give them some grandbabies, this one is for you.
[1:12] Speaker 2: Dr.
[1:12] Speaker 1: Lana Holmes is back with us to talk about being
[1:15] Speaker 1: child-free by choice. And y'all, she did not hold back.
[1:19] Speaker 1: We'll get right into it after a quick word from
[1:21] Speaker 1: our sponsors. Let me ask you something. How many times
[1:34] Speaker 1: have you told somebody you might not want kids and
[1:36] Speaker 1: they hit you with, oh, you'll change your mind, or
[1:40] Speaker 1: my personal favorite, well, who's going to take care of
[1:42] Speaker 1: you when you get older? More of us are saying
[1:45] Speaker 1: it anyway. According to Pew Research, 47% of adults under
[1:50] Speaker 1: 50 without kids say they're unlikely to ever have them,
[1:54] Speaker 1: up 10 points from 2018. Dr. Lana Holmes is back
[1:58] Speaker 1: with us today. She's a licensed clinical psychologist at the
[2:02] Speaker 1: Center for Inclusive Therapy and Wellness, and she's child-free herself.
[2:07] Speaker 2: Dr.
[2:07] Speaker 1: Lana breaks down why this choice makes some folks so
[2:09] Speaker 1: uncomfortable and why being child-free and being childless are two
[2:14] Speaker 1: different things. She also has a script for when it's
[2:17] Speaker 1: time to tell mom and the aunties, plus some honest
[2:20] Speaker 1: questions to sit with if you're still deciding. And she
[2:23] Speaker 1: says something I can't stop thinking about. Kids know whether
[2:27] Speaker 1: or not you want them. After you listen, come find us.
[2:32] Speaker 1: Hop in our comments on Instagram and tell us what
[2:34] Speaker 1: resonated for you. And you know we're always on thread,
[2:37] Speaker 1: so leave us a message there as well. You can
[2:40] Speaker 1: also keep the conversation going in our Patreon community at community.therapyforblackgirls.com.
[2:46] Speaker 1: Press play and let's get into it. Thank you so
[2:53] Speaker 1: much for joining us again, Dr. Lana.
[2:56] Speaker 3: It's my pleasure. Third time's the charm from what I hear.
[2:59] Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed.
[3:00] Speaker 1: We've had such great conversations and I feel like I've
[3:02] Speaker 1: been talking about like so many different things, which I love.
[3:05] Speaker 2: I think also just shows your.
[3:06] Speaker 1: Range as a clinician and like how you can be
[3:08] Speaker 1: interested in lots of different things. And so the conversation
[3:12] Speaker 1: today is around being child free by choice. And so
[3:15] Speaker 1: I'm curious as someone who is both a clinician and
[3:18] Speaker 1: child free, what was your interest in wanting to talk
[3:21] Speaker 1: more about this?
[3:22] Speaker 3: Actually, it comes from my own personal experience. So I
[3:24] Speaker 3: want to say it was around my 20s when I
[3:27] Speaker 3: was still in graduate school that I realized I wanted
[3:29] Speaker 3: to be child free. And when I started articulating that,
[3:34] Speaker 3: I was immediately met with, I mean, everything from people
[3:40] Speaker 3: being like, are you sure? Or like you would be
[3:43] Speaker 3: the perfect kind of person like with your education and
[3:46] Speaker 3: your intelligence to have a child or whatever. You'll change
[3:49] Speaker 3: your mind. And then there are also some folks I
[3:51] Speaker 3: met who really wanted to have kids and who almost
[3:55] Speaker 3: seem offended by me articulating that I wanted to be
[3:58] Speaker 3: child free, even though I never expressed any kind of
[4:02] Speaker 3: antagonism or vilification for having children. It was just like,
[4:05] Speaker 3: you know, I just don't think that this is my calling, basically.
[4:09] Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[4:11] Speaker 1: And as a psychologist, you know, I'm very interested, as
[4:14] Speaker 1: are you, like the response to that, right? Like how
[4:17] Speaker 1: your personal choice then becomes like an affront to other people, right?
[4:21] Speaker 1: And you are not the only person who has expressed that, right?
[4:23] Speaker 1: Like so many women have talked about that. But why
[4:26] Speaker 1: do you think that becomes such like a personal attack
[4:28] Speaker 1: for people when you say that you don't want to
[4:31] Speaker 1: have children?
[4:31] Speaker 3: I think there are several different dimensions of it. So
[4:35] Speaker 3: one is, I think, some people, for reasons that I'm
[4:39] Speaker 3: not entirely clear on make the assumption that if you
[4:43] Speaker 3: are saying that you want to be child free, that
[4:45] Speaker 3: you must hate children or that you must hate the
[4:48] Speaker 3: people who want to have children, which hatred of children
[4:51] Speaker 3: has nothing to do with being child free. It's simply
[4:54] Speaker 3: saying like, I am voluntarily making the choice to not
[4:58] Speaker 3: have children and to redirect my energy and time into
[5:01] Speaker 3: other resources and places. But I think also, There's like
[5:06] Speaker 3: the general system of oppression that is cisheteropatriarchy, which deems
[5:11] Speaker 3: that if you are a woman assigned female at birth
[5:13] Speaker 3: or a femme, your primary purpose in life is to
[5:17] Speaker 3: bear and have children. And therefore you are violating this
[5:22] Speaker 3: fundamental idea of what you should be doing if you
[5:25] Speaker 3: say you don't want to do that. And I think
[5:27] Speaker 3: particularly for Black women, AFABs and femmes, there's not only
[5:33] Speaker 3: cis-heteropatriarchy that we have to contend with, but also misogynoir.
[5:37] Speaker 3: So if we look at the legacy of chattel slavery,
[5:40] Speaker 3: Black women and femmes were forced to procreate and to
[5:44] Speaker 3: take care of their own and other children. And that
[5:47] Speaker 3: legacy continued down into Jim Crow when Black women and
[5:51] Speaker 3: femmes who worked as domestic workers were also again put
[5:54] Speaker 3: in the position of being caretakers and taking care of children.
[6:00] Speaker 3: And so I think there's a combination of oppression and
[6:02] Speaker 3: social conditioning that leads people to think if you are
[6:07] Speaker 3: a woman and femme in general, but especially if you're
[6:09] Speaker 3: a Black woman and femme, you have to be doing this.
[6:13] Speaker 3: And there's the additional component where for a series of
[6:16] Speaker 3: circumstances beyond our control, Black women and femmes have been
[6:19] Speaker 3: the backbone of the Black community. We've been the ones
[6:22] Speaker 3: taking care of everyone. And so I think it's almost
[6:26] Speaker 3: become this given of like, oh, well, of course, you're
[6:29] Speaker 3: just going to be raising and taking care of children
[6:31] Speaker 3: and taking care of people in multiple capacities.
[6:34] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[6:34] Speaker 1: And it does feel like it is tied to this
[6:36] Speaker 1: like strong Black woman archetype, right? That we often see
[6:39] Speaker 1: in literature and just kind of pervasive throughout the community
[6:42] Speaker 1: that that is the thing that you must want to
[6:45] Speaker 1: do as a Black woman.
[6:47] Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think it's assumed that Black women are can
[6:53] Speaker 3: and should take care of everybody but themselves and take
[6:56] Speaker 3: care and bear all sorts of responsibilities, not realizing that
[7:02] Speaker 3: we are human. And meaning by that is that every
[7:04] Speaker 3: human being has a limit in terms of how much
[7:06] Speaker 3: workload they can take on, how much stress they can
[7:09] Speaker 3: take on. And so I think this archetype or stereotype
[7:13] Speaker 3: of the strong Black woman does us disservice because it
[7:16] Speaker 3: can be dehumanizing in a way where people don't realize like, oh, well,
[7:19] Speaker 3: maybe This is too much for you. Or maybe you
[7:23] Speaker 3: need a little bit more balance or support in your
[7:25] Speaker 3: life as opposed to just assuming that you can take
[7:27] Speaker 3: care of an unlimited amount of things on your own
[7:31] Speaker 3: without any assistance.
[7:34] Speaker 2: You know, Dr.
[7:34] Speaker 1: Lana, I mean, if I think about like women in
[7:36] Speaker 1: my own family, I'm sure there may be women in
[7:38] Speaker 1: your family and just kind of culturally, it feels like
[7:40] Speaker 1: there have always been women, black women who have like
[7:44] Speaker 1: chosen not to have.
[7:45] Speaker 2: Children for one reason or another.
[7:47] Speaker 1: It does feel like we are at an interesting point now, though,
[7:51] Speaker 1: where people are feeling OK to say it. Right. Like
[7:54] Speaker 1: I think historically is just something that maybe you didn't
[7:56] Speaker 1: talk about or people were seen as a spinster or whatever. whatever,
[8:00] Speaker 1: like kind of, you know, title we gave people.
[8:02] Speaker 3: Crazy Cat Lady.
[8:04] Speaker 2: The Crazy Cat Lady. It's like all these stereotypes, right?
[8:07] Speaker 1: But it does feel like it is something that women
[8:09] Speaker 1: are feeling more comfortable to actually like proclaim for themselves
[8:13] Speaker 1: and to like be okay with it. What do you
[8:15] Speaker 1: think has led to us kind of getting to this
[8:17] Speaker 1: place in the culture?
[8:19] Speaker 3: Again, I think there are several variables. I think part
[8:21] Speaker 3: of it is a lot of introspection and self-awareness among
[8:25] Speaker 3: a number of Black women and femmes realizing like, do
[8:29] Speaker 3: you really want this? And then what are the pros
[8:32] Speaker 3: and cons personally for having a child versus not? Also,
[8:36] Speaker 3: I think the greater opportunities that we have now, frankly,
[8:41] Speaker 3: like in the later generations or more recent generations of
[8:44] Speaker 3: Black women and femmes, all of these hard fought freedoms,
[8:47] Speaker 3: which even though I know they're under attack, we've been
[8:50] Speaker 3: able to say like, oh, I do have a choice.
[8:52] Speaker 3: It isn't just a matter of like, this is the
[8:54] Speaker 3: only option I have. But I think as more people
[8:57] Speaker 3: speak up, there have been more communities forming around Black
[9:01] Speaker 3: women and femmes making the choice to be child-free. And
[9:05] Speaker 3: then also, I think more people are in distinction between
[9:07] Speaker 3: being child-free, which is making the choice not to have children,
[9:10] Speaker 3: versus being childless. Because when we think of those historical examples,
[9:13] Speaker 3: either in our families or communities, there is that distinction
[9:17] Speaker 3: between folks who are childless where they want to have children,
[9:20] Speaker 3: but for whatever reason can't versus those who are saying, no,
[9:23] Speaker 3: I'm actually making a conscientious decision and taking all the
[9:27] Speaker 3: necessary steps to prevent myself from having a child.
[9:31] Speaker 2: And you're right.
[9:31] Speaker 1: I think that that is such an important distinction. Can
[9:33] Speaker 1: you talk about like what happens when we collapse those two, right?
[9:36] Speaker 1: Because those are two very different trajectories. So what happens
[9:39] Speaker 1: when we collapse that? How is that harmful?
[9:42] Speaker 3: Well, I think it can lead to a lot of misunderstandings,
[9:45] Speaker 3: but also it can lead to a lot of hurt
[9:50] Speaker 3: for folks. So particularly just hearing the commentary from people
[9:54] Speaker 3: who are childless, there can be a lot of grief
[9:57] Speaker 3: from making multiple efforts to try to conceive and bear
[10:01] Speaker 3: children and it just not happening. Not only grief of
[10:05] Speaker 3: the children that you wish you had, but for whatever
[10:08] Speaker 3: reason can't, but also grief when it comes to the
[10:11] Speaker 3: life you envisioned that included having children. And so if
[10:14] Speaker 3: someone comes up to you and says like, oh, you're
[10:17] Speaker 3: child free, it discounts all of that. It just makes
[10:20] Speaker 3: it seem like, oh, you just never wanted children. It's like, no,
[10:23] Speaker 3: I wanted it. And for whatever reason, biologically or otherwise,
[10:29] Speaker 3: it's not happening. And that feels like such a huge
[10:32] Speaker 3: loss in my life. On the other hand, if you
[10:35] Speaker 3: were to approach somebody who's child-free and saying like, oh,
[10:37] Speaker 3: you're childless, it almost ignores the fact that you have
[10:41] Speaker 3: any agency whatsoever. Where it's like, oh, well, it's just
[10:44] Speaker 3: because there were circumstances beyond your control instead of saying
[10:47] Speaker 3: like you made a conscientious decision. And so it can
[10:50] Speaker 3: come across as a little bit stigmatizing almost because I
[10:54] Speaker 3: think while there's stigma that both being childless and child
[10:57] Speaker 3: free carries, I think there still is slightly more acceptance
[11:04] Speaker 3: of if you still want to have children, but are
[11:07] Speaker 3: preempted from that happening versus if you're saying, no, I
[11:11] Speaker 3: do not want children. Yeah.
[11:14] Speaker 2: I mean, I know the answer.
[11:16] Speaker 1: We were just having another recording and it feels like
[11:18] Speaker 1: the answer is always racism, right?
[11:19] Speaker 2: You've already talked about. The answer is always racism.
[11:25] Speaker 1: And you've already talked about, you know, like how cis
[11:28] Speaker 1: hetero patriarchy like expects that this is what women are.
[11:32] Speaker 1: But it feels like such a big conversation and it still,
[11:34] Speaker 1: I think, feels so racist. striking to me that there
[11:38] Speaker 1: is so much energy around like what people do in
[11:41] Speaker 1: their own lives and like how that then becomes an
[11:44] Speaker 1: indictment on what you are doing in your.
[11:47] Speaker 3: Life, right?
[11:47] Speaker 2: Like there is still all of this stigma.
[11:49] Speaker 1: Can you talk more about like some of the stigma
[11:51] Speaker 1: maybe that you haven't talked about already related to being
[11:54] Speaker 1: child free?
[11:56] Speaker 3: Some of the stigma I'm just thinking about like multiple
[11:58] Speaker 3: examples is not only the like you must hate children
[12:02] Speaker 3: and those people who decide to have children, but like
[12:05] Speaker 3: it must be a 24-hour, seven-day-out-of-the-week, 365-days-out-of-the-year party at your house.
[12:11] Speaker 3: You must be some lewd and licentious harlot, some Jezebel,
[12:15] Speaker 3: who is running a brothel inside your house, even though
[12:18] Speaker 3: my question is like, what's wrong with that? But also,
[12:23] Speaker 3: there's this idea that like, oh, you have no morals,
[12:25] Speaker 3: or that I've also heard people saying like, you're forsaking responsibility,
[12:29] Speaker 3: which is, actually the opposite, which it would be more
[12:32] Speaker 3: irresponsible if you had children without any desire or plan
[12:36] Speaker 3: or preparation than to say like, no, actually, I don't
[12:40] Speaker 3: think this would be a good situation to bring a
[12:43] Speaker 3: child into. Therefore, I'm going to bar that from happening.
[12:48] Speaker 3: The idea that you're some sour, mean ogre of a
[12:52] Speaker 3: lady who just was just miserable and therefore that's why
[12:56] Speaker 3: you're not going to have children is that you can't
[12:58] Speaker 3: get a man, which again, presumes that you're only interested
[13:01] Speaker 3: in one gender. That's why you can't have a child.
[13:04] Speaker 3: But I think also some things that are not necessarily
[13:08] Speaker 3: a stigma related to character or assuming who you are
[13:11] Speaker 3: as a person, but these ideas about your life, like, oh, well,
[13:15] Speaker 3: if you don't have kids, who's going to take care
[13:18] Speaker 3: of you? I literally had somebody tell me, like, having
[13:21] Speaker 3: children would make your life so much richer. And I
[13:25] Speaker 3: was like, no. But you're making an assumption that like
[13:29] Speaker 3: that it doesn't even compute. You're like making this whole
[13:32] Speaker 3: story from my life. So, yeah, I think those are
[13:36] Speaker 3: some of the main things that come to mind in
[13:37] Speaker 3: terms of stigmatization.
[13:40] Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. You know, we
[13:51] Speaker 1: were having a conversation recently in our Patreon community about
[13:55] Speaker 1: this idea that like so many of us for so
[13:57] Speaker 1: many years are taught like go to school, like this
[14:01] Speaker 1: is the key to success. This is your only priority.
[14:04] Speaker 1: But then at some point, probably after graduation, when we
[14:07] Speaker 1: have gotten all these degrees, we your family starts talking about, okay,
[14:10] Speaker 1: but now like, where's your partner? Where are these kids?
[14:14] Speaker 1: And there aren't ever really any skills necessarily. Like if
[14:18] Speaker 1: our focus was supposed to be school, like when were
[14:20] Speaker 1: we learning like how to be in relationship and what
[14:22] Speaker 1: it looks like to be a caregiver and those kinds
[14:24] Speaker 1: of things. And I'm curious, like when in your life
[14:27] Speaker 1: did those conversations about kids start happening? And maybe what
[14:31] Speaker 1: have you heard kind of in your clinical work around like,
[14:34] Speaker 1: how soon are people having these expectations of women to
[14:37] Speaker 1: be having kids?
[14:38] Speaker 3: I mean, if I'm going to be 100% honest, like
[14:42] Speaker 3: the idea of you may likely have children started when
[14:46] Speaker 3: I was a kid. Of people just being like, oh,
[14:50] Speaker 3: when you become an adult and thinking like along with
[14:52] Speaker 3: the conversations of like, what are you going to do
[14:53] Speaker 3: when you grow up? Was, oh, well, like, when do
[14:56] Speaker 3: you think you're going to get married? What kind of
[14:58] Speaker 3: partner do you think you'll have? Like, how many kids
[15:00] Speaker 3: do you think you'll have when you become an adult?
[15:03] Speaker 3: So really those conversations for me started early. And I mean,
[15:06] Speaker 3: when I think about a lot of the patients that
[15:09] Speaker 3: I have in my clinical work, it's not too dissimilar,
[15:13] Speaker 3: like either childhood, adolescence, maybe for some people around their
[15:17] Speaker 3: early twenties where there was those conversations, but really I
[15:19] Speaker 3: see it as an evolution where like, it's the seed
[15:23] Speaker 3: that's planted when you're a kid that like, oh, this
[15:28] Speaker 3: is just what you do as someone who is a
[15:32] Speaker 3: female or assigned female at birth. And we're preparing you
[15:36] Speaker 3: for this future. And then as you get older, it
[15:40] Speaker 3: continues to be revisited as a conversation of like, okay,
[15:43] Speaker 3: you know, like, so continuing to think about your life
[15:46] Speaker 3: in the head, like, what is that going to be like?
[15:49] Speaker 3: How is that going to happen? And I can never
[15:51] Speaker 3: remember for myself or talking to any of my patients
[15:55] Speaker 3: that where alternatives were presented. Like it was always kind
[15:59] Speaker 3: of woven into go to school, make sure that you're
[16:03] Speaker 3: financially stable, make sure that you have steady housing. And
[16:08] Speaker 3: also like when you're going to get married and have kids,
[16:10] Speaker 3: like all of it was bundled together as a, like
[16:13] Speaker 3: a part of that conversation. So I can never remember
[16:17] Speaker 3: a time for me or my patients where it was
[16:19] Speaker 3: never brought up in conversation where And usually it starts
[16:24] Speaker 3: to flip, you know, when you say like, I don't
[16:27] Speaker 3: think I'm going to have kids. Then there's this like
[16:29] Speaker 3: idea of almost a pressuring where it's like, come on, like, really?
[16:36] Speaker 3: Are you sure?
[16:37] Speaker 1: Like, you know, maybe like.
[16:38] Speaker 3: In the next few years, like after things calm down
[16:40] Speaker 3: with work and da da da, like you will do that. Yeah.
[16:44] Speaker 3: But in terms of like the other part of your
[16:46] Speaker 3: question of like, when were you supposed to have time
[16:48] Speaker 3: for dating and getting to socialize, I think that it's never,
[16:54] Speaker 3: at least for me or when I think about any
[16:56] Speaker 3: of my patients, been like an either-or proposition where it's
[16:59] Speaker 3: been like, oh, either you pursue your education and get
[17:01] Speaker 3: a career or you focus on the social and romantic
[17:06] Speaker 3: aspects of your life. I think I've seen plenty of
[17:09] Speaker 3: people actually who are child-free who are in relationships, but
[17:14] Speaker 3: they just are... realizing like, oh, there are other ways
[17:17] Speaker 3: for me to deeply connect to people and contribute to
[17:21] Speaker 3: the lives of others that does not involve being a parent.
[17:26] Speaker 3: And so, you know, I don't think that it's a
[17:28] Speaker 3: matter of like a lack of socializing or having romantic
[17:32] Speaker 3: or sexual partnerships. I usually think it's more a matter
[17:35] Speaker 3: of realistically thinking about all the stressors and pressures that
[17:41] Speaker 3: are in one's life, but also knowing that if you
[17:43] Speaker 3: simply don't want to do it, that that's good enough.
[17:46] Speaker 2: As well.
[17:46] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[17:48] Speaker 1: Yeah, because it does feel like there is the assumption
[17:50] Speaker 1: that everybody feels called at some point to have this
[17:54] Speaker 1: maternal gene or that is the idea that everybody has
[17:58] Speaker 1: that and we know enough about biology and science to
[18:01] Speaker 1: know that we are all very different. And so that
[18:04] Speaker 1: just simply may not exist for a lot of people.
[18:06] Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think again, this assumption is that
[18:11] Speaker 3: if you are a woman or a femme, that like
[18:14] Speaker 3: it just naturally will spring from you. And I think
[18:17] Speaker 3: there can be a lot of confusion, shame, guilt, or
[18:22] Speaker 3: questioning if you realize that that's not in you, because
[18:26] Speaker 3: we don't really have a lot of those alternative examples
[18:29] Speaker 3: in our society. So there can be this like, well,
[18:31] Speaker 3: what's wrong with me if I don't have that sense of,
[18:35] Speaker 3: you know, anticipation or a glee or joy at the
[18:38] Speaker 3: prospect of that. And I think it's important to know
[18:41] Speaker 3: that when we think about all the ways we divide
[18:43] Speaker 3: and categorize people, there aren't these inborn things like, oh,
[18:48] Speaker 3: she has this maternal instinct or, oh, he has this
[18:52] Speaker 3: primal aggression or any of those kinds of things. I
[18:55] Speaker 3: think people are people. And I think one of the
[18:59] Speaker 3: things that being child-free invites us to do is consider
[19:03] Speaker 3: the individuality, autonomy, and agency of human beings. So instead
[19:07] Speaker 3: of having these preconceived notions of, well, based on your gender,
[19:12] Speaker 3: sexual orientation, race, you are destined to be this and
[19:16] Speaker 3: do this. And there's, it's natural and there's no other
[19:19] Speaker 3: way to say like, no, actually as individual human beings,
[19:24] Speaker 3: even though, yes, we are all shaped by history, culture, society,
[19:28] Speaker 3: et cetera, you still have the opportunity to draw the
[19:32] Speaker 3: course of your own life.
[19:34] Speaker 2: Hmm. And I feel like Dr.
[19:36] Speaker 1: Lana, what you're outlining is something that feels very threatening, right?
[19:38] Speaker 1: Like just in even the larger conversations around like DEI
[19:42] Speaker 1: and like banning books and like just this idea of
[19:44] Speaker 1: like autonomy and agency, I think a lot of people
[19:47] Speaker 1: find very threatening, right? And so I think that that
[19:50] Speaker 1: is why, at least a part of why there's still
[19:52] Speaker 1: some so much stigma related to this conversation.
[19:54] Speaker 3: Yes, which practically speaking, I mean, again, the answer is
[20:00] Speaker 3: always racism and cis hetero patriarchy and all the other things.
[20:03] Speaker 3: But if we really break it down on a practical level,
[20:06] Speaker 3: what truly is threatening about someone opting out of something
[20:11] Speaker 3: or somebody taking a different path? If there isn't anything
[20:15] Speaker 3: inherently unethical, evil, or unlawful about it, and I know
[20:22] Speaker 3: laws aren't always reflective of what is good and humane,
[20:25] Speaker 3: but like laws within reason, like what is bad about it.
[20:30] Speaker 3: That's the thing that I look at it. When I
[20:32] Speaker 3: see people have this reaction of being threatened or feeling bad,
[20:36] Speaker 3: it's like, well, how is this somehow invalidating your decisions?
[20:41] Speaker 2: It's not.
[20:41] Speaker 3: You still have the freedom to make your own decisions too,
[20:44] Speaker 3: even if they're different from mine. And I don't know,
[20:48] Speaker 3: for whatever reason, we as human beings have a tendency
[20:51] Speaker 3: to want to attack and criticize and control things. people, things,
[20:58] Speaker 3: or experiences we don't understand. And I still have a
[21:00] Speaker 3: hard time wrapping my head around it, even as a
[21:02] Speaker 3: licensed clinical psychologist, of why would you not only have
[21:06] Speaker 3: that reaction, but why would you take extra pains to
[21:11] Speaker 3: harm someone or infringe upon their rights because it makes
[21:16] Speaker 3: you feel uncomfortable? It still doesn't make sense to me
[21:18] Speaker 3: because practically speaking, there isn't anything harmful in someone being child-free.
[21:24] Speaker 3: it isn't infringing upon the ability for people to conceive
[21:27] Speaker 3: children and have children. It isn't damaging the human population.
[21:31] Speaker 3: And even though there are some people and we can
[21:34] Speaker 3: get into conversations and statistics that we don't have time
[21:36] Speaker 3: for about, you know, fertility rates around the world and
[21:40] Speaker 3: what's dropping and rising in different countries, but it's like
[21:43] Speaker 3: the human race is not a threat of going extinct.
[21:46] Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? We're not at that level.
[21:49] Speaker 3: So there isn't anything that I, can point to or
[21:52] Speaker 3: that anyone has ever said that would justify why there
[21:55] Speaker 3: would be this kind of panicked reaction when someone says
[21:59] Speaker 3: that they're going to not have children.
[22:01] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[22:03] Speaker 1: Earlier, you brought up one of the main arguments that
[22:05] Speaker 1: people hear when they talk about being child-free is like,
[22:08] Speaker 1: who's going to take care.
[22:09] Speaker 2: Of you when you're older?
[22:10] Speaker 1: Can you talk about like why that is a flawed
[22:15] Speaker 1: idea and.
[22:16] Speaker 2: Like where some of that comes from? I mean....
[22:19] Speaker 3: There's this thing called estrangement and people also not really
[22:24] Speaker 3: looking after people, even if they're blood related. I mean,
[22:28] Speaker 3: those are realities. I think so many of us personally
[22:32] Speaker 3: and professionally can think of examples of people who they
[22:35] Speaker 3: might by number have a lot of people in their lives.
[22:38] Speaker 3: But if you ask them, like, who could you go
[22:40] Speaker 3: to an emergency or crisis? Who could you go to
[22:42] Speaker 3: and rely on when you really needed someone? There'd be people. Well,
[22:47] Speaker 3: I know it might be these folks, but not these folks.
[22:49] Speaker 3: You know, so there isn't a guarantee just because you
[22:52] Speaker 3: have a child that that child is then going to
[22:56] Speaker 3: have a positive, healthy relationship with you for the duration
[22:59] Speaker 3: of your life and that they would have the responsibility
[23:03] Speaker 3: or the care to take care of you, right? And
[23:07] Speaker 3: if we think more broadly about what it means to
[23:08] Speaker 3: have a social support network that's reciprocal, healthy, and long-lasting,
[23:13] Speaker 3: it isn't just related to the people that we are
[23:16] Speaker 3: connected to by blood. It can be connected to other folks, friends, partners, colleagues,
[23:22] Speaker 3: community members that can come and support each other. And
[23:26] Speaker 3: I think as we're looking at older adults at this
[23:28] Speaker 3: point in time, there are a lot of people who
[23:31] Speaker 3: are finding creative ways to live independently, but also to
[23:35] Speaker 3: be able to stay connected to others that can help
[23:38] Speaker 3: them that aren't just their children. So you know, I
[23:42] Speaker 3: don't think that it's this all or nothing proposition that
[23:46] Speaker 3: either you have children and you have this guaranteed bedrock
[23:48] Speaker 3: of someone who's going to take care of you, or
[23:51] Speaker 3: you don't have children and you're going to die alone
[23:53] Speaker 3: in your home, you know?
[23:55] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[23:55] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[23:56] Speaker 1: So what does this look like maybe in conversations kind
[23:59] Speaker 1: of clinically, you know, when people come to you and
[24:01] Speaker 1: say like, Hey, I actually don't know that I want
[24:03] Speaker 1: to have kids. Like what are some of the kind
[24:06] Speaker 1: of common anxieties or struggles that people may be experiencing there?
[24:11] Speaker 3: Usually there's a lot of stress and frustration around those
[24:15] Speaker 3: decisions not being respected of like, why can't people just
[24:20] Speaker 3: leave me alone? Why can't people also just celebrate the
[24:23] Speaker 3: other parts of my life? Because usually it is almost
[24:25] Speaker 3: framed as like a, yes, you're intelligent. Yes, you're well
[24:28] Speaker 3: accomplished and you're doing all these amazing things, but like this.
[24:31] Speaker 3: And so they're like, why is it that my education
[24:35] Speaker 3: or how I'm contributing to my community or my family
[24:37] Speaker 3: or my friends is seen as like, second place because
[24:42] Speaker 3: I have not yet risen to the level of having
[24:45] Speaker 3: a child or being married. And so there can be that,
[24:49] Speaker 3: but also there can be conversations about like, how do
[24:54] Speaker 3: I break this news to family members or friends or
[24:59] Speaker 3: maybe even a partner? Because sometimes that can happen where
[25:02] Speaker 3: somebody enters a relationship and there might be a is
[25:07] Speaker 3: ambivalent to, open to, or has their heart set on
[25:11] Speaker 3: having children. And if, you know, a person that I'm
[25:14] Speaker 3: seeing is like, I really don't, but, and I'm scared
[25:17] Speaker 3: because whether this means the end of our relationship or
[25:21] Speaker 3: what if this means when it comes to family and
[25:23] Speaker 3: friends that those relationships will become weaker because they will
[25:29] Speaker 3: think less of me or they won't like me as
[25:31] Speaker 3: much because I'm not going to be having children.
[25:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. Can you say more about that? Like, what does
[25:36] Speaker 1: this mean in terms of like the landscape of dating,
[25:39] Speaker 1: especially if you are like, I think it's one thing
[25:42] Speaker 1: if you decide this already in a partnership and maybe
[25:44] Speaker 1: that's a difficult conversation you have to have with your partner,
[25:47] Speaker 1: but it also feels like it could be difficult even
[25:49] Speaker 1: as somebody who's not in a relationship yet, but interested
[25:51] Speaker 1: in dating.
[25:52] Speaker 3: Honestly, it can be hard. It's not impossible, but definitely
[25:57] Speaker 3: I would say it takes an extra level of vetting, right?
[25:59] Speaker 3: Where you have to be sure that when you're dating someone,
[26:03] Speaker 3: and especially if you think that it's going to get
[26:05] Speaker 3: serious of, hey, this is where I stand when it
[26:09] Speaker 3: comes to how I envision my life. You know, just
[26:12] Speaker 3: like with all the other things, like what are your
[26:14] Speaker 3: career prospects? What are your financial prospects? What do you
[26:17] Speaker 3: think about when you're thinking about the future? That's going
[26:20] Speaker 3: to include whether or not you want to have kids.
[26:22] Speaker 3: And so I think it takes a lot of intentional
[26:25] Speaker 3: conversation and soul searching for yourself, but also making sure
[26:29] Speaker 3: that you and the other person are being honest with
[26:31] Speaker 3: each other. about is for real for real like will
[26:35] Speaker 3: your life be just as good without kids versus with
[26:40] Speaker 3: it and it's like are you being honest about how
[26:43] Speaker 3: you feel about kids just because you want to be
[26:46] Speaker 3: with me or are you being disingenuous because you really
[26:50] Speaker 3: like me but there still is this like feeling that
[26:53] Speaker 3: you have about wanting to have kids. I mean, also,
[26:56] Speaker 3: I've heard stories of women and femmes who as soon
[26:59] Speaker 3: as they mentioned like, yeah, I don't want to have
[27:01] Speaker 3: kids that that almost automatically breaks off, you know, the
[27:06] Speaker 3: dating experience or breaks off the relationship. So it can
[27:11] Speaker 3: be topsy turvy. But at the same time, there are
[27:14] Speaker 3: plenty of people out there that have found a partner
[27:17] Speaker 3: or partner's who intentionally don't want to have kids and
[27:20] Speaker 3: they're in agreement about that and they stick with it
[27:22] Speaker 3: and they don't change their mind. So I would say
[27:26] Speaker 3: dating is hard no matter what. I've yet to come
[27:29] Speaker 3: across anybody I'm interested in hearing that like has smooth
[27:32] Speaker 3: sailing with dating. But I think it just is a
[27:35] Speaker 3: matter of being very clear and honest in communicating your
[27:38] Speaker 3: decisions with people. And if somebody doesn't respect that or
[27:43] Speaker 3: want something different, just being able to amicably part ways
[27:46] Speaker 3: and keep looking.
[27:49] Speaker 1: I would love to hear any tips or scripts you
[27:52] Speaker 1: have for people who are like have made this decision
[27:54] Speaker 1: of being child free, but do feel like they need
[27:57] Speaker 1: to like tell mom and grandma and auntie then like, hey,
[28:00] Speaker 1: this is something that I've decided. Like, what does that
[28:02] Speaker 1: look like? Any tips there for people who are interested
[28:05] Speaker 1: in having that conversation?
[28:06] Speaker 3: I think the top tips is just be prepared with
[28:11] Speaker 3: like whatever your personal statement is, which usually is some
[28:14] Speaker 3: variation of Like, hey, X, I realize I don't want
[28:20] Speaker 3: to have children, but I'm still going to be here
[28:24] Speaker 3: doing all of the wonderful things I want to do
[28:26] Speaker 3: with my life and all the wonderful ways that I
[28:28] Speaker 3: can help people. And if there's pushback against that, I
[28:33] Speaker 3: think it's important to just... you know, if people come
[28:37] Speaker 3: back with like things like, oh, well, aren't you going
[28:39] Speaker 3: to be lonely? Or aren't you going to be unfulfilled?
[28:41] Speaker 3: Being able to name the ways in which like you
[28:43] Speaker 3: are fulfilled and that you're not lonely. But ultimately, the
[28:49] Speaker 3: side that I always come on whenever people are preparing
[28:52] Speaker 3: for this is it is your decision. So at a
[28:55] Speaker 3: certain point, if people just continue to like ask questions
[28:59] Speaker 3: or they try to convince or coerce you into changing
[29:03] Speaker 3: your mind of just, you really have to almost be
[29:06] Speaker 3: like a broken record and just say like, this is
[29:08] Speaker 3: my decision and I really need you to respect it.
[29:11] Speaker 1: Yeah. And can you say more about like the relationship
[29:16] Speaker 1: to like agency that it feels like this conversation really
[29:19] Speaker 1: is for?
[29:19] Speaker 2: Because in some ways this.
[29:20] Speaker 1: Feels like the work of clinical dreams, right? Like the
[29:24] Speaker 1: idea that you could work with somebody on really claiming
[29:26] Speaker 1: this for themselves and You know, taking up space in
[29:28] Speaker 1: that way. But what does this say about agency, especially
[29:32] Speaker 1: as it's related to Black women?
[29:34] Speaker 3: The first phrase that comes to mind is that the
[29:36] Speaker 3: bodies of Black women and femmes have always been under attack.
[29:41] Speaker 3: Like we've never been able to have full peace or
[29:44] Speaker 3: full control over our bodies, whether you want to look
[29:46] Speaker 3: at it from a sociopolitical standpoint or otherwise. So I
[29:51] Speaker 3: think Black women and femmes saying, I do not want
[29:56] Speaker 3: to have children is almost like this radical act. It
[30:02] Speaker 3: shouldn't be. I mean, I just see it as being
[30:04] Speaker 3: a choice, but I think given all of the things
[30:08] Speaker 3: we've discussed, it unfortunately is seen as a radical act
[30:13] Speaker 3: to be able to say like, I have control over
[30:15] Speaker 3: my body. My body doesn't belong to the government. My
[30:18] Speaker 3: body doesn't belong to any particular political affiliation or belief,
[30:22] Speaker 3: but also my body is not this thing to be
[30:28] Speaker 3: controlled by my own community. And I think that's the
[30:31] Speaker 3: part that sometimes is not spoken, but I think there's
[30:34] Speaker 3: so many expectations that even other people in the Black
[30:37] Speaker 3: community can put on the bodies of Black women and
[30:40] Speaker 3: femmes about how our bodies should uphold certain standards, how
[30:45] Speaker 3: our bodies should uphold certain expectations. That to say, like,
[30:49] Speaker 3: I get to choose what my body does or does
[30:51] Speaker 3: not do, you know, can cause a lot of tension.
[30:55] Speaker 3: And so I think being able to say, I get
[31:00] Speaker 3: to make this life-changing choice about what happens with my body,
[31:06] Speaker 3: even if people don't like it, even if people think
[31:09] Speaker 3: that it violates certain ideas of what I should be doing,
[31:13] Speaker 3: is reclaiming control and power for ourselves. Because having a
[31:17] Speaker 3: child dramatically changes your life. It changes your finances. It
[31:23] Speaker 3: changes your physiological functioning. It changes what you can and
[31:27] Speaker 3: cannot do in your day-to-day life. And so I think
[31:33] Speaker 3: that there is a lot of weight to that decision
[31:36] Speaker 3: and a lot of power to that decision that requires agency.
[31:40] Speaker 2: Dr.
[31:40] Speaker 1: Lana, I wonder if we could expand the conversation around
[31:43] Speaker 1: being child-free to also include this expectation that Black women
[31:49] Speaker 1: will also mother in some other way, right? So whether
[31:53] Speaker 1: that be like, oh, I'm the supervisor at work and
[31:55] Speaker 1: I have this expectation to kind of like take care
[31:58] Speaker 1: of people in the office or just in lots of
[32:01] Speaker 1: different ways, I think it is connected to this idea
[32:03] Speaker 1: that their expectations put upon Black women, Black femmes to
[32:08] Speaker 1: kind of be caregivers and caretakers, right? That feels like
[32:11] Speaker 1: an extension of this conversation. Can you talk about that?
[32:14] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
[32:15] Speaker 3: One of the things that immediately was coming to my
[32:17] Speaker 3: mind as we were talking is like, we were previously
[32:19] Speaker 3: talking about the strong Black woman trope, but another trope
[32:23] Speaker 3: and stereotype is the mammy, which again has its origins
[32:27] Speaker 3: in the transatlantic domestic slave trade of this idea of
[32:32] Speaker 3: Black women and femmes being these motherly figures that, you know,
[32:38] Speaker 3: extend themselves, like delight themselves in extending themselves and their
[32:41] Speaker 3: bodies and their care and their love for everybody else,
[32:44] Speaker 3: even if they're neglected and ignored, even if they are
[32:48] Speaker 3: basically pushed into that position. And I think just basically
[32:56] Speaker 3: like we are under no obligation, frankly, to have to
[33:00] Speaker 3: take care of other people if we don't want to.
[33:02] Speaker 3: I think if Any of us are in a position
[33:05] Speaker 3: where it's like, yes, I voluntarily and with complete and
[33:09] Speaker 3: conformed consent want to take care of others.
[33:12] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[33:13] Speaker 3: But if we don't want any part of that, that's
[33:16] Speaker 3: perfectly valid and fine. You know, if there are plenty
[33:20] Speaker 3: of people, when I think about all the different stories
[33:22] Speaker 3: that I've heard about Black women and femmes deciding to
[33:25] Speaker 3: be child-free, of them saying like, yeah, I want to
[33:28] Speaker 3: be able to redirect my energy and time and resources
[33:31] Speaker 3: to myself. I want to pick and choose who I
[33:34] Speaker 3: pour my energy into instead of it's being something that
[33:39] Speaker 3: I have no will behind. It's just something that everybody
[33:41] Speaker 3: has positioned me to do. So yeah, I think it's
[33:45] Speaker 3: perfectly valid because that is something that will come up
[33:47] Speaker 3: and it's like, well, you know, if you don't have
[33:49] Speaker 3: kids and that means you should have all this extra
[33:51] Speaker 3: time that we are all deciding that you were going
[33:54] Speaker 3: to devote to being a caretaker in other ways. And again,
[33:57] Speaker 3: it's like that isn't necessary and that's not something that
[34:00] Speaker 3: anybody should do unless they want to.
[34:02] Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. You know, you
[34:14] Speaker 1: mentioned like some of these ideas about that people have
[34:17] Speaker 1: about what it means to be child free, that you
[34:19] Speaker 1: should have all this time to kind of just do
[34:21] Speaker 1: all these things.
[34:22] Speaker 2: And it's making me think.
[34:23] Speaker 1: Like, how do we typically see the black woman who
[34:26] Speaker 1: chooses to be child free portrayed in media? Like, have
[34:29] Speaker 1: you seen instances where you feel like like a good
[34:32] Speaker 1: job has been done and maybe like some of the
[34:34] Speaker 1: stereotypes that we see when we see this portrayed?
[34:37] Speaker 3: Oh, I'm trying to think I'm trying to go through
[34:41] Speaker 3: like every single thing. frame of television and film that
[34:46] Speaker 3: I can think of. And I think usually I don't
[34:51] Speaker 3: really see a conscientious portrayal of being child-free or like,
[34:56] Speaker 3: that's not something that's explicitly stated in the storyline. I
[34:59] Speaker 3: still think there's this divide of like the female or
[35:04] Speaker 3: AFAB character who is single and looking and then her
[35:12] Speaker 3: making the transition to being partnered and living happily ever after.
[35:17] Speaker 3: Like those are the typical things I'm seeing portrayed in media.
[35:20] Speaker 3: So I still think there's a lot of like under-representation
[35:25] Speaker 3: of being child-free and a lack of like explicit narrative
[35:29] Speaker 3: around that. And so I would say in general, there's
[35:32] Speaker 3: still something left to be desired when it comes to
[35:35] Speaker 3: that in media.
[35:36] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[35:38] Speaker 1: So to these stereotypes then of like all the time
[35:40] Speaker 1: you have and all the things that you must be doing, like, oh,
[35:44] Speaker 1: there's so much free time and things that you have.
[35:46] Speaker 2: What would you say to people about that?
[35:49] Speaker 3: No, just no. When I think about myself and I
[35:54] Speaker 3: think about so many of the other people in my
[35:56] Speaker 3: personal life or professional life who are child free, like.
[35:59] Speaker 3: we're still busy. We're still busy with our careers. We're
[36:02] Speaker 3: still busy when it comes to devoting time and energy
[36:06] Speaker 3: to interest or pursuits and other areas of our lives. Also,
[36:09] Speaker 3: like we're still busy in terms of taking care of
[36:12] Speaker 3: other folks, whether that be a partner or partners, whether
[36:14] Speaker 3: that be other relatives, whether that be friends, or whether
[36:18] Speaker 3: that be causes or issues that we're passionate about. So again,
[36:23] Speaker 3: I think it is very inaccurate to assume like if
[36:26] Speaker 3: kids aren't filling up your space and time that you
[36:31] Speaker 3: just must be twiddling your thumb. It's like, no, like
[36:33] Speaker 3: actually there's a lot of other things that we're devoting
[36:36] Speaker 3: our time and energy to that sometimes can tip the
[36:38] Speaker 3: decision to not have kids because having kids requires a
[36:42] Speaker 3: lot of time and energy and support. And Sometimes people
[36:46] Speaker 3: may look at their lives and do an honest inventory
[36:49] Speaker 3: and find like there isn't space for that to do
[36:51] Speaker 3: it right, to be a parent in a good way.
[36:54] Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
[36:56] Speaker 1: What are some of the things you feel like have
[36:58] Speaker 1: you been able to do being child-free? And, you know,
[37:01] Speaker 1: I think, again, like you've already mentioned that there's always
[37:03] Speaker 1: this argument that, oh, being a parent will make your
[37:05] Speaker 1: life so much richer. But I think the other argument
[37:08] Speaker 1: could also be made that being child-free also allows your
[37:11] Speaker 1: life to be rich in some way. So what things
[37:13] Speaker 1: do you feel like have opened up for you as
[37:15] Speaker 1: a result of being child-free?
[37:17] Speaker 3: I think right in the different characteristics, like when it
[37:20] Speaker 3: comes to decisions that I have and continue to make
[37:22] Speaker 3: with my career, I There's more freedom and opportunity there
[37:25] Speaker 3: because I don't have to worry about like, well, what's
[37:30] Speaker 3: going to work on my kid's schedule or who's going
[37:32] Speaker 3: to be available to take care of a child with
[37:35] Speaker 3: this kind of work setup. Also, in my free time,
[37:38] Speaker 3: it's allowed me to do the things that really fill
[37:41] Speaker 3: me up and that give me a sense of being
[37:44] Speaker 3: a human being and that life is worth living because
[37:46] Speaker 3: I that having a child can take away a lot
[37:51] Speaker 3: of that. But also I think in times when I
[37:54] Speaker 3: have not felt well, when I've been sick or when
[37:57] Speaker 3: I just have been going through something, there hasn't been
[38:01] Speaker 3: the added worry or stress of like, I have to
[38:04] Speaker 3: somehow suppress this or get this together to be able
[38:08] Speaker 3: to be present for a kid or how am I
[38:11] Speaker 3: going to be able to get someone to help take
[38:13] Speaker 3: care of me? And me also be present and take
[38:16] Speaker 3: care of a child at the same time. So some
[38:19] Speaker 3: of those stressors and worries aren't present because of that.
[38:22] Speaker 3: But also when it comes to being there for other
[38:25] Speaker 3: people in my life that are also adults, that has
[38:29] Speaker 3: opened up more time for that. Because I think one
[38:32] Speaker 3: of the things that often people think about when they
[38:35] Speaker 3: want to have children is like, oh, well, we're making
[38:38] Speaker 3: life better or improving the world by having a child.
[38:41] Speaker 3: But I always like to think of it in a
[38:42] Speaker 3: different way of, There are so many good people in
[38:45] Speaker 3: this world that don't have support. And that one of
[38:49] Speaker 3: the things I've found fulfilling as a child-free person is
[38:52] Speaker 3: being there for friends, for example, who may not have
[38:56] Speaker 3: family or other people that are there for them. And
[38:59] Speaker 3: we get to be family to each other. Mm-hmm.
[39:03] Speaker 2: So I wonder, Dr. Lana, like, what does this look like?
[39:06] Speaker 1: Because I would imagine there are people who are enjoying
[39:08] Speaker 1: our conversation who are thinking like, oh, is this something
[39:11] Speaker 1: like maybe they are still on the line of like deciding, like,
[39:15] Speaker 1: do I want kids?
[39:16] Speaker 2: Do I not?
[39:17] Speaker 1: Because to your point, like, I think so many of
[39:18] Speaker 1: us have just been raised to think at some point
[39:20] Speaker 1: like this will be my reality. Right. But I think
[39:22] Speaker 1: there is there are more people who are questioning that decision.
[39:25] Speaker 1: So what kinds of things should people be taking into
[39:27] Speaker 1: consideration around whether their being child-free by choice is something
[39:31] Speaker 1: they are interested in?
[39:34] Speaker 3: The first thing I would say is like, look into
[39:37] Speaker 3: your own heart and soul. And like, when you think
[39:39] Speaker 3: about having children, what comes up immediately without censoring yourself
[39:44] Speaker 3: or without thinking about what other people would want you
[39:47] Speaker 3: to say, And then use that as like the starting point,
[39:50] Speaker 3: because there are other things we can get into. But
[39:53] Speaker 3: I would say if you really don't want to have kids,
[39:57] Speaker 3: you shouldn't force yourself to because spoiler alert, kids know
[40:02] Speaker 3: whether or not you want them. Just want to say
[40:04] Speaker 3: that because there are some people who think like, oh, well,
[40:07] Speaker 3: I'm going to hide this bitterness or this resentment that
[40:10] Speaker 3: I have or this regret that I have. And they
[40:14] Speaker 3: won't be none the wiser. And trust me, I've come
[40:16] Speaker 3: across plenty of adults who talk about how they knew
[40:21] Speaker 3: their parents did not want to have them around and
[40:25] Speaker 3: the harm that that did to them. So especially in
[40:28] Speaker 3: the context when I think about those I've worked with
[40:30] Speaker 3: and trauma, like the harm that that has done. So
[40:34] Speaker 3: that's the first thing, but also thinking about like, what
[40:36] Speaker 3: are the practical day in, day out realities that would
[40:40] Speaker 3: need to be in place to effectively raise a child
[40:43] Speaker 3: or children? Because it not only takes things like steady income,
[40:47] Speaker 3: stable housing, but also things like a support system. Because
[40:51] Speaker 3: I know plenty of people who have children that do
[40:54] Speaker 3: not have the added support to help take care of
[40:58] Speaker 3: the kids. So it's the situation where it's like all
[41:01] Speaker 3: these family and friends are like, yeah, we want you
[41:02] Speaker 3: to have kids. And we're so enthusiastic about it. But
[41:05] Speaker 3: when it's like, okay, could you help us with childcare?
[41:08] Speaker 3: Could you come in and like help with these things
[41:11] Speaker 3: with the kid? Nobody answers. Or it's a once in
[41:14] Speaker 3: a while thing. So like, it's important to do like,
[41:17] Speaker 3: do you have that kind of support? Also, if it
[41:19] Speaker 3: was a situation where you recognize that you and or
[41:23] Speaker 3: your partner or partners would need to maybe reduce your
[41:26] Speaker 3: work hours or quit your job and be a full-time parent?
[41:30] Speaker 3: Is that something that you or your partner or partners
[41:33] Speaker 3: would be willing to do? Or would that be something
[41:37] Speaker 3: where you're like, no, I really love my job. That
[41:39] Speaker 3: has to be a constant in my life. So I
[41:43] Speaker 3: would say looking at all those different avenues of like
[41:45] Speaker 3: what it would take to effectively raise a child and
[41:48] Speaker 3: see if they're present in your life or if you
[41:50] Speaker 3: could make them be present. And if not, then I
[41:53] Speaker 3: would say it's important to consider that maybe it would
[41:58] Speaker 3: be better not to have a child.
[42:01] Speaker 1: You know, I know as we were kind of prepping
[42:03] Speaker 1: for this conversation, something that was really important for you
[42:05] Speaker 1: to talk about was the idea that, you know, the
[42:09] Speaker 1: world isn't really set up to really support people having children.
[42:12] Speaker 3: Right.
[42:12] Speaker 1: And like, what does it even look like to find
[42:14] Speaker 1: community to do to have this major undertaking? And you
[42:17] Speaker 1: already outlined like some of the things and some of
[42:19] Speaker 1: the supports that are needed. But can you talk more
[42:22] Speaker 1: about like just the support that doesn't exist and why
[42:25] Speaker 1: maybe many people are actually making the choice to be
[42:28] Speaker 1: child free?
[42:30] Speaker 3: So just looking at the United States alone, we do
[42:32] Speaker 3: not have comprehensive, reliable, affordable child care, which is essential,
[42:37] Speaker 3: especially if you're working. Also, particularly for a number of
[42:41] Speaker 3: Black women and those assigned female at birth, the mortality
[42:44] Speaker 3: rates during the perinatal period are staggering. And we know
[42:49] Speaker 3: this to be true even for high-income, well-educated Black women
[42:53] Speaker 3: and femmes, that they still have these really poor outcomes
[42:56] Speaker 3: when it comes to perinatal health care. And access to
[43:00] Speaker 3: healthcare itself is like an issue. So, and also the
[43:04] Speaker 3: financial component as well of not only going through the
[43:07] Speaker 3: process of getting pregnant, having the baby, but also being
[43:13] Speaker 3: able to raise and nourish and enrich and take care
[43:16] Speaker 3: of a child. And so, but also I think if
[43:19] Speaker 3: we're going to be real, another thing that I've heard
[43:21] Speaker 3: come up a lot from Black women and femmes is
[43:26] Speaker 3: what if I have a child and they're killed? Or
[43:32] Speaker 3: looking at the attack on civil rights, reproductive rights, where
[43:37] Speaker 3: it's like, do I really want to bring a child
[43:40] Speaker 3: into the world where they're going to be less safe?
[43:46] Speaker 3: And so all of these things, I think the sense
[43:50] Speaker 3: of danger, the lack of support, the lack of resources
[43:54] Speaker 3: can make people second guess whether or not they really
[43:57] Speaker 3: would like to have a child.
[44:01] Speaker 2: All very valid reasons.
[44:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. Dr.
[44:05] Speaker 1: Lana, do you think that there is a way that
[44:06] Speaker 1: child-free men are looked at differently in society than women
[44:10] Speaker 1: who choose to be child-free?
[44:12] Speaker 3: It's interesting because I almost feel I've been thinking about
[44:15] Speaker 3: that a lot. Like, I've heard a little bit more
[44:19] Speaker 3: from men who are childless talking about the disappointment of
[44:23] Speaker 3: not being able to have children. But I haven't really
[44:25] Speaker 3: heard as much from child-free men. So I wouldn't be
[44:29] Speaker 3: able to speak to them directly. But I think one
[44:32] Speaker 3: of the things that I am aware of and I
[44:35] Speaker 3: do know is that men have had more freedom in
[44:39] Speaker 3: terms of their reproductive choices. So if a man wanted
[44:42] Speaker 3: to be a bachelor for the rest of his life
[44:45] Speaker 3: or a masculine identifying person wanted to just date around
[44:49] Speaker 3: and not have any kids, it's not really a point
[44:52] Speaker 3: of conversation. There can be some exceptions depending on certain
[44:55] Speaker 3: cultural variables. Like if there's this idea of like, You
[44:58] Speaker 3: need to carry on the family lineage. And it's expected
[45:00] Speaker 3: that that's done through the male or masculine identifying person
[45:03] Speaker 3: in the family, that there might be more conversation and pressure.
[45:08] Speaker 3: But in an individualistic Western industrialized country like the United States,
[45:14] Speaker 3: I think there has been this history of men having
[45:19] Speaker 3: more choice and people not only respecting it, but also
[45:23] Speaker 3: not really even thinking about whether or not they want
[45:26] Speaker 3: to have children. Mm-hmm.
[45:28] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[45:29] Speaker 1: If you could change one thing about how Black communities
[45:31] Speaker 1: talk about child-free women, what would it be?
[45:38] Speaker 3: This idea that, like, we're letting people down somehow. I
[45:44] Speaker 3: think that would be nice. Or that it somehow should
[45:47] Speaker 3: be this personal decision has communal implications, right? that everybody
[45:54] Speaker 3: has the right to say something about it rather than
[45:56] Speaker 3: it being a personal choice.
[45:58] Speaker 1: Is there anything that we haven't talked about today that
[46:01] Speaker 1: you feel like is really important, a really important part
[46:04] Speaker 1: of this conversation?
[46:05] Speaker 3: I think one thing that came up is I was,
[46:09] Speaker 3: I think initially imposing this topic and discussing this, this
[46:12] Speaker 3: idea of like not having a child as a black
[46:15] Speaker 3: woman or femme somehow being an, an act of betrayal
[46:18] Speaker 3: against our community or letting our community down. And I,
[46:23] Speaker 3: I was thinking about, well, where did that come from?
[46:25] Speaker 3: And I think there's been so much death and loss
[46:29] Speaker 3: and estrangement in our communities. I think that this idea
[46:34] Speaker 3: of having children has sometimes been seen as a way
[46:38] Speaker 3: to counteract that. But I think it's important to know
[46:42] Speaker 3: that having children is not the only way to mitigate
[46:49] Speaker 3: the death or the loss of the estrangement in our communities.
[46:51] Speaker 3: There are direct ways that we can provide support and
[46:54] Speaker 3: care that do not have to do with childbirth or
[46:57] Speaker 3: child rearing.
[47:00] Speaker 2: Thank you for that.
[47:01] Speaker 1: That does feel like an important part to make sure
[47:03] Speaker 1: we highlight. So where can we stay connected with you, Dr. Lana?
[47:07] Speaker 1: What's your website as well as any social media channels
[47:09] Speaker 1: you'd like to share?
[47:11] Speaker 3: All right. So I am at the Center for Inclusive
[47:14] Speaker 3: Therapy and Wellness. So if you go to InclusiveTherapyWellness.com and
[47:19] Speaker 3: search for my name, you will find me there. Also,
[47:22] Speaker 3: I have a LinkedIn page, but I stay away from
[47:25] Speaker 3: the other socials. Yeah. And then I am on various
[47:28] Speaker 3: directory profiles, including I am on Therapy for Black Girls directory,
[47:32] Speaker 3: if anybody would be interested in working with me.
[47:35] Speaker 2: Perfect.
[47:36] Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in our
[47:37] Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
[47:39] Speaker 1: with us again today.
[47:41] Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
[47:46] Speaker 1: I want to give a big thank you to Dr.
[47:47] Speaker 1: Lana Holmes for this wonderful conversation. To learn more about
[47:51] Speaker 1: her and her work, be sure to visit the show
[47:53] Speaker 1: notes at therapyforblackgirls.com session 483. And don't forget to text
[47:58] Speaker 1: this episode to two of your girls right now and
[48:00] Speaker 1: tell them to check it out. Did you know that
[48:03] Speaker 1: you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or
[48:05] Speaker 1: suggestions for the podcast? If you have ideas about things
[48:08] Speaker 1: you'd like us to cover, drop us a message at
[48:11] Speaker 1: memo.fm slash therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind.
[48:15] Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're
[48:18] Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
[48:21] Speaker 1: directory at therapyforblackgirls.com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us
[48:26] Speaker 1: on Instagram and threads at therapyforblackgirls. And you can also
[48:30] Speaker 1: join us over in our Patreon community for exclusive updates,
[48:33] Speaker 1: behind the scenes content, and much more. you can join
[48:36] Speaker 1: us at community.therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Ndechubu,
[48:43] Speaker 1: and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank
[48:47] Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
[48:50] Speaker 1: look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
[48:53] Speaker 2: Take good care.

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