# #702Openline: Sibiya, Masemola and The SAPS crisis of confidence

An episode of [The Clement Manyathela Show](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1201147442), 13 Oct 2026, 58 min.

Audio: https://traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/5dcefa8e-00a9-4595-8ce1-a4ab0080f142/366c625b-e6db-4376-8e27-a6f300c8de6f/0020596b-3ad1-434e-bdc6-b4e20078e64f/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=4b2990fe-a25d-4dca-afbf-a6f300cfc2ae

Clement Manyathela examines the current state of South Africa’s police service following Shadrack Sibiya’s departure, Fannie Masemola’s suspension and Lieutenant-General Puleng Dimpane’s appointment as acting national commissioner. What do these leadership developments mean for public safety and trust in the SAPS? The Clement Manyathela Show is broadcast on 702, a Johannesburg based talk radio station, weekdays from 09:00 to 12:00 (SA Time). Clement Manyathela starts his show each weekday on 702 at 9 am taking your calls and voice notes on his Open Line. In the second hour of his show, he unpacks, explains, and makes sense of the news of the day. Clement has several features in his third hour from 11 am that provide you with information to help and guide you through your daily life. As your morning friend, he tackles the serious as well as the light-hearted, on your behalf. Thank you for listening to a podcast from The Clement Manyathela Show. Listen live on Primedia+ weekdays from 09:00 and 12:00 (SA Time) to The Clement Manyathela Show broadcast on 702 https://buff.ly/gk3y0Kj For more from the show go to https://buff.ly/XijPLtJ or find all the catch-up podcasts here https://buff.ly/p0gWuPE Subscribe to the 702 Daily and Weekly Newsletters https://buff.ly/v5mfetc Follow us on social media: 702 on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TalkRadio702 702 on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@talkradio702 702 on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkradio702/ 702 on X: https://x.com/Radio702 702 on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@radio702 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:00] Speaker 1: You're with Clement Manyatela on 702.
[0:04] Speaker 2: Let's walk the talk.
[0:05] Speaker 3: Streaming on the Prime Media Plus app.
[0:08] Speaker 2: DSTV Channel 856, 92.7 and 106 FM. Eight minutes after
[1:50] Speaker 2: nine o'clock. Good morning. Welcome to the Clement Manyatela show
[1:55] Speaker 2: on this Tuesday, the 13th day of October. It's great
[1:59] Speaker 2: to be in your company this morning. The 702 open
[2:02] Speaker 2: line starts now on 011-883-0702. You can send your WhatsApps
[2:04] Speaker 2: on 072-702-1702. So, Lieutenant General Shadrach Sibiya is no longer
[2:06] Speaker 2: an SAPS member following the quite an expeditious disciplinary hearing.
[2:19] Speaker 2: He resigned through his lawyers shortly after his D.C. hearing,
[2:24] Speaker 2: and his departure now regards him as a dishonorable charge.
[2:30] Speaker 2: And I think the first thing I thought of, even
[2:32] Speaker 2: though this man, of course, has been out of work
[2:35] Speaker 2: and hasn't been at the office, I just thought the
[2:41] Speaker 2: SAPS is facing such serious questions about leadership, about accountability,
[2:48] Speaker 2: about stability. I mean, Shadrach Sibir's departure follows the suspension
[2:53] Speaker 2: of the National Police Commissioner amid allegations of misconduct, right?
[2:59] Speaker 2: But also more allegations that were founded in criminal charges.
[3:03] Speaker 2: Those charges have since been withdrawn. He's still not back
[3:05] Speaker 2: at work. Lifted in general, Buleng Dimbani has been the
[3:10] Speaker 2: acting National Police Commissioner. So with key senior positions affected
[3:15] Speaker 2: by these developments, Questions amounting about who is providing strategic direction.
[3:24] Speaker 2: How is accountability maintained? Is even the leadership structure now
[3:29] Speaker 2: sufficiently stable to carry out the SAPS mandate? And don't
[3:32] Speaker 2: get me wrong, I do think that the people that
[3:35] Speaker 2: are holding the fort now are doing the best that
[3:37] Speaker 2: they can. I'm just saying in a country like ours,
[3:41] Speaker 2: with all the levels of criminality we have been exposed to,
[3:46] Speaker 2: over the last, let's say, two months, you need all
[3:50] Speaker 2: hands on deck. And that's why last week I was
[3:53] Speaker 2: making a lot of noise about the National Police Commissioner
[3:56] Speaker 2: and how I don't understand why the president still hasn't
[3:58] Speaker 2: asked him to come back to work. Because if the
[4:00] Speaker 2: very basis for suspending him or asking him to step
[4:05] Speaker 2: aside is because of the criminal charges he faced, I
[4:09] Speaker 2: don't understand how when the criminal charges are formally dropped,
[4:13] Speaker 2: you still keep him on suspension. That doesn't make sense
[4:16] Speaker 2: to me. And if there's something else that the president
[4:19] Speaker 2: is considering that we're not aware of, maybe he should
[4:22] Speaker 2: also indicate so and say, there's something else we're still
[4:25] Speaker 2: going through that's quite sensitive. We can't share details, but
[4:28] Speaker 2: it's something we're working on. I'm not just sitting and
[4:31] Speaker 2: not taking a decision on the National Police Commissioner. Yeah,
[4:35] Speaker 2: it's just suspicious. It just is weird. And now Shadrach
[4:38] Speaker 2: Zabia is out. I don't know when they're going to
[4:40] Speaker 2: appoint the Deputy National Police Commissioner. I don't know if
[4:45] Speaker 2: it's going to be over the next six months. Is
[4:46] Speaker 2: it going to be over the next year? But I
[4:49] Speaker 2: think this raises some serious questions about just the leadership
[4:53] Speaker 2: of the SAPS. You can share your thoughts on 011-883-0702.
[5:00] Speaker 2: What's going on between the ANC and COSATU? Did you
[5:04] Speaker 2: see yesterday at the COSATU Congress, the chairperson of the ANC,
[5:08] Speaker 2: Gwede Mantashe, walked out.
[5:12] Speaker 4: Because.
[5:13] Speaker 2: He wanted to speak last at the Congress and speak
[5:19] Speaker 2: after the SACP. So Mantashe was leading the ANC's delegation
[5:27] Speaker 2: and was set to deliver a message of support, and
[5:30] Speaker 2: things deteriorated when he refused to address delegates before the SACP,
[5:38] Speaker 2: saying that the ANC traditionally delivers its message to support
[5:43] Speaker 2: or messages of support last. So he then walked out.
[5:47] Speaker 2: So he said tradition has been that the ANC speaks last.
[5:51] Speaker 2: Kossatu's Mike Shingange accused the ANC chairperson of undermining its Congress.
[5:56] Speaker 2: And look, I have covered Kossatu Congresses many times when
[6:03] Speaker 2: I was a political reporter with Eyewitness News and where
[6:06] Speaker 2: I worked previously before I joined Prime Media. And I
[6:09] Speaker 2: remember the ANC always speaking first as the leader of
[6:14] Speaker 2: the alliance. That's why they call it the ANC-led alliance.
[6:19] Speaker 2: The ANC normally speaks first. And I don't know if
[6:21] Speaker 2: there was confusion, like who told Gwede Mantashe that the
[6:25] Speaker 2: ANC always speaks last? Because then they need to point
[6:29] Speaker 2: to us in previous instances where the ANC has actually
[6:33] Speaker 2: spoken last. I think That would normally happen if maybe
[6:37] Speaker 2: like the president is busy on the day that the
[6:39] Speaker 2: messages of support are being delivered and the president is
[6:42] Speaker 2: only going to join much later or the following day.
[6:45] Speaker 2: Those discussions are held and then, you know, the agenda
[6:49] Speaker 2: of the Congress also indicates and expresses that after it's
[6:53] Speaker 2: been discussed. And this time around, Mandashe was actually even
[6:57] Speaker 2: booed by delegates when his name was mentioned by the
[7:00] Speaker 2: SACP general secretary.
[7:03] Speaker 5: Remember, Elia?
[7:04] Speaker 2: As he greeted him at the start of his address.
[7:07] Speaker 2: Mandasho was also heckled and booed and forced to abandon
[7:11] Speaker 2: delivering a message of support from the ANC on the
[7:14] Speaker 2: first day of the 14th Congress. But not only that,
[7:18] Speaker 2: remember in 2022, President Cyril Ramaphosa was forced to abandon
[7:22] Speaker 2: the national May Day rally organized by Kwasadu and Rustenbeck
[7:25] Speaker 2: because there were angry Sibanya still water workers who disrupted
[7:29] Speaker 2: proceedings and refused to allow him to speak. So I'm
[7:31] Speaker 2: mentioning all these other instances because I do think that
[7:35] Speaker 2: the relationship between the ANC and COSATU and the SACP
[7:39] Speaker 2: is on a deteriorating pattern. And I wonder how you
[7:43] Speaker 2: slice it up. But listen to what Gwenda Mandasha said
[7:47] Speaker 2: after he walked out of the COSATU Congress yesterday.
[7:50] Speaker 6: You don't distort the alliance for convenience. You never distort
[7:56] Speaker 6: the alliance for convenience.
[7:59] Speaker 5: You do the right thing.
[8:01] Speaker 6: Whether it is painful or not.
[8:03] Speaker 5: You don't change it as you like.
[8:06] Speaker 6: And one of the things that I will never do
[8:09] Speaker 6: is to give up a principle for convenience.
[8:12] Speaker 5: I don't do that as a person.
[8:15] Speaker 3: Mr.
[8:15] Speaker 5: Mandache, you think that because.
[8:17] Speaker 7: Of being arrogant, they think that you should be sanctioned
[8:19] Speaker 7: by your party.
[8:20] Speaker 5: What's your response? Can I tell you, when you are
[8:23] Speaker 5: a bandu and you are a satirist, that is called arrogance.
[8:28] Speaker 5: When you're not a bandit, it is called loyal.
[8:32] Speaker 6: Pliance and humility are not one and the same. I
[8:37] Speaker 6: cannot be pliant. I will be humble, but very assertive.
[8:42] Speaker 5: And therefore, pliant.
[8:44] Speaker 2: That's what Gwede Mantasha said. So, what I did this
[8:47] Speaker 2: morning before we went live at 9, I asked Mike Shingange,
[8:50] Speaker 2: the first deputy president of Kasati, to join me for
[8:52] Speaker 2: a quick conversation just to find out what really happened
[8:55] Speaker 2: and how are they fixing it. So, I got him
[8:57] Speaker 2: on the line and I started by asking him, what's
[9:00] Speaker 2: going on? Why did Gwede Montashe leave? And have they
[9:03] Speaker 2: spoken ever since?
[9:05] Speaker 4: After he has left, that was the problem.
[9:07] Speaker 8: But look, we have adopted an agenda for the Congress
[9:13] Speaker 8: in terms or according to the normal standard of the program.
[9:17] Speaker 8: So we had expected him to come and speak, but
[9:19] Speaker 8: obviously it looked like he had other ideas, so he
[9:22] Speaker 8: didn't come. And indeed, it was not possible for the
[9:26] Speaker 8: Congress to change the program in midway without even any discussion.
[9:30] Speaker 8: He had to come forward and say, for whatever reasons,
[9:33] Speaker 8: he would come late, he would request to speak later,
[9:35] Speaker 8: and then he would have conferred with the Congress. The
[9:38] Speaker 8: Congress would have agreed to amend to accommodate him. But
[9:41] Speaker 8: for him, at a time when the item for the
[9:43] Speaker 8: ANC to speak was now called upon, and then he refused.
[9:47] Speaker 5: I think that.
[9:48] Speaker 8: the delegates of the Congress, they didn't define that thing
[9:51] Speaker 8: very well. And that's why they expressed themselves in the
[9:54] Speaker 8: manner that they did. It's unfortunate because this was not
[9:57] Speaker 8: a new thing. There's no Congress that has ever addressed
[10:01] Speaker 8: this last in a Congress of the Cossacks.
[10:04] Speaker 2: That's what I thought. Because out of all the, you know,
[10:06] Speaker 2: I've attended many of the Cossack Congresses and I don't
[10:09] Speaker 2: remember the ANC speaking last. Unless, of course, the president
[10:14] Speaker 2: has to come to address and the president is only
[10:17] Speaker 2: available on a specific day.
[10:19] Speaker 4: Exactly.
[10:21] Speaker 8: And like I said, there's always a discussion. So the
[10:24] Speaker 8: Congress at the time of adopting the agenda, they would
[10:28] Speaker 8: have been made aware of those changes and they would
[10:30] Speaker 8: have accepted that. You don't accept, you don't change without
[10:34] Speaker 8: a move and a second from the delegates at Congress. Remember,
[10:36] Speaker 8: this is a Congress of delegates and they moved and
[10:39] Speaker 8: then I top the agenda according to how it was
[10:41] Speaker 8: traditionally done. We don't do so even ourselves when we're
[10:43] Speaker 8: invited by the ANC or any other organization for that
[10:46] Speaker 8: matter to change that agenda to suit us.
[10:48] Speaker 2: Did he explain, though, why he wanted to speak last
[10:50] Speaker 2: and do things differently this time?
[10:53] Speaker 4: No, no, he didn't.
[10:55] Speaker 9: We heard it on media.
[10:56] Speaker 4: That's why we had to respond in media ourselves.
[10:57] Speaker 8: We think that we are distorting the alliance protocol because
[11:02] Speaker 8: the ANC is the leader of the alliance or the
[11:04] Speaker 8: society that's supposed to speak last. And we are not
[11:06] Speaker 8: in contention. We are not contesting the fact that the ANC...
[11:09] Speaker 8: is our leader as the Allies. We're not contesting that
[11:11] Speaker 8: the ANC is the leader of society, but we are
[11:12] Speaker 8: saying the protocol of our Allies partners. When is Nsanko,
[11:17] Speaker 8: ANC speaks late, when is the COSATU, ANC speaks late,
[11:23] Speaker 8: when is the SACP, ANC speaks last, when is the SACP,
[11:26] Speaker 8: COSATU speaks first, ANC speaks last. So it's just like that.
[11:29] Speaker 8: It's how we've been doing this. I don't know where
[11:31] Speaker 8: he gets this protocol all of a sudden that he
[11:33] Speaker 8: has to change. At the 15th National Congress, When even
[11:36] Speaker 8: in 1993, Mandela did not rise first, last year, at
[11:39] Speaker 8: the first.
[11:41] Speaker 4: So it has always been the case.
[11:43] Speaker 2: Where does this leave your relationship with the ANC? It
[11:45] Speaker 2: seems like it's on a continual deteriorating pattern.
[11:51] Speaker 8: Fortunately, the delegates at Congress were able to distinguish the
[11:55] Speaker 8: PR of the National Chairperson of the ANC from that
[11:57] Speaker 8: one of the ANC.
[11:58] Speaker 4: It was our view that much as it was.
[12:03] Speaker 8: Deployed by the ANC to represent the ANC. We do
[12:05] Speaker 8: think that it's just his behavior. It shouldn't say much
[12:10] Speaker 8: about our relationship with the ANC. In fact, the delegates
[12:12] Speaker 8: called on the ANC to rain on him, to take
[12:15] Speaker 8: the decision or to charge him. The way other comrades there,
[12:19] Speaker 8: the Veterans League, they were there. We even got calls
[12:21] Speaker 8: from the ANC members that they don't. I appreciate how
[12:25] Speaker 8: he treated Kosato, so they distanced themselves from that.
[12:27] Speaker 4: So it doesn't dent her much. Just accept that it's
[12:30] Speaker 4: a behavior of a national person.
[12:31] Speaker 2: And I'm asking that question because when I was watching
[12:34] Speaker 2: after he walked out, there are some delegates that were
[12:36] Speaker 2: absolutely not happy with that behavior. Have you decided as Kosato,
[12:41] Speaker 2: as a Congress, whether you will be supporting and campaigning
[12:44] Speaker 2: for the ANC in this upcoming elections?
[12:49] Speaker 8: Yesterday we dealt with the political report and the political
[12:52] Speaker 8: resolutions and the Congress decided that we're going to support
[12:55] Speaker 8: the alliance. So we have not chosen the ANC nor
[12:59] Speaker 8: the ASACP because these organizations are in alliance with us.
[13:04] Speaker 8: We've always supported the political party or an alliance together.
[13:07] Speaker 8: Now that both of them are in the parliament, the
[13:09] Speaker 8: decision is that we will come back and discuss the
[13:14] Speaker 8: modalities after the election.
[13:15] Speaker 4: But for now.
[13:16] Speaker 8: We're not forcing workers to choose ADA. We're supporting the alliance.
[13:19] Speaker 8: So if you're going to campaign for the ANC, good,
[13:22] Speaker 8: you're in the alliance. If you're going to campaign for
[13:23] Speaker 8: the ANC, good, you're in the alliance. But we're not
[13:25] Speaker 8: taking a resolution to choose ADA and reject another one.
[13:29] Speaker 2: So members will decide for themselves who between the SSCP
[13:32] Speaker 2: and ANC they want to go with?
[13:35] Speaker 8: Yeah, as long as it's an organization which we're in
[13:38] Speaker 8: alliance with. It's not outside the alliance.
[13:41] Speaker 4: Okay.
[13:42] Speaker 2: Mike Shingange, thank you so much for speaking to us.
[13:44] Speaker 2: He's the first deputy president of Kasati. Yeah, whoever thought
[13:47] Speaker 2: things would get to this point between Kasatu and the ANC?
[13:52] Speaker 2: So I thought we should get Mike to explain to
[13:55] Speaker 2: us how traditionally they've done things in the alliance. And
[14:00] Speaker 2: what I suspect is going on here is that Gwede
[14:02] Speaker 2: Mantashe knew that if Soleimani Baila gets on that stage,
[14:05] Speaker 2: he's going to say some things that Gwede would want
[14:07] Speaker 2: to respond to. But then Gwede Mantashe can't also be
[14:10] Speaker 2: forcing a whole Congress that has already adopted its agenda
[14:14] Speaker 2: to just change things around. including what's already adopted as
[14:19] Speaker 2: an agenda because he wants to respond to Solima Baila.
[14:23] Speaker 2: I mean, that's quite unfair. And if that's what he
[14:25] Speaker 2: wanted to do, because he knows established protocol is, this
[14:29] Speaker 2: is an ANC-led alliance, ANC normally speaks first, then they
[14:33] Speaker 2: should have engaged the SACP much earlier so that when
[14:37] Speaker 2: they adopt the agenda for the Congress, they're able to
[14:41] Speaker 2: indicate this is how differently things are going to be.
[14:44] Speaker 2: So let me know what you think of this relationship
[14:47] Speaker 2: that's deteriorating between the SAPC, I mean the COSATU and
[14:52] Speaker 2: the ANC and just broadly the alliance. 011-883-0703. That's on
[14:56] Speaker 2: the health and wellness feature, not on the sharing space.
[15:03] Speaker 3: Why am I.
[15:04] Speaker 2: Already looking forward? to the sharing space tomorrow. All right,
[15:16] Speaker 2: let's go straight to your calls and your WhatsApps. Let's
[15:19] Speaker 2: start here on 0727021702. Hi Clement, Anonymous here.
[15:23] Speaker 10: I mean, I understand Fanny Massimola has to go back
[15:28] Speaker 10: to work.
[15:28] Speaker 5: I don't know.
[15:29] Speaker 10: Our president takes time to make decisions. Is there any
[15:34] Speaker 10: update on suspended Minister Senzom Kuno with this allegation?
[15:41] Speaker 2: How far away are we with his status? Is he
[15:45] Speaker 2: still going to remain suspended? Until when?
[15:49] Speaker 11: Because this suspension goes with pay, so I wonder.
[15:54] Speaker 2: Well, he's going to remain suspended until the final report
[15:59] Speaker 2: of the Madilanga Commission. That's the sense that I got.
[16:02] Speaker 2: Remember when I interviewed the presidency spokesperson on Face the Nation,
[16:07] Speaker 2: was it last year? Vincent Maguena. When I interviewed him
[16:11] Speaker 2: and I asked about... And it appeared the president is
[16:16] Speaker 2: waiting for the final report, which is quite interesting given
[16:20] Speaker 2: that with all the other people that the Madlanga Commission
[16:25] Speaker 2: has suggested or recommended they be investigated, the president easily
[16:30] Speaker 2: just releases a report and accepts that those people can
[16:36] Speaker 2: be investigated, even though that's an interim report. But if
[16:40] Speaker 2: there's a finding against Sen Zomkunu, the president then what?
[16:43] Speaker 2: Doesn't think that there must be a sanction against him?
[16:46] Speaker 2: Is that fair? Is it fair that there are certain
[16:49] Speaker 2: top cops, right? Certain people that the commission in its
[16:53] Speaker 2: interim report suggests and recommends they must be investigated further
[16:58] Speaker 2: because they are finding against them. But in the case
[17:01] Speaker 2: of Sen Zomkunu, if there's a finding against him, the
[17:04] Speaker 2: president as the political principle, because now It's his prerogative, right?
[17:12] Speaker 2: Especially if it's got nothing to do with criminal charges.
[17:14] Speaker 2: But the president says, unlike everybody else, I'm not going
[17:18] Speaker 2: to use the interim report. I'm actually going to wait
[17:20] Speaker 2: for the final report. That really was the nub of
[17:25] Speaker 2: what I was getting to when I spoke to Vincent
[17:26] Speaker 2: Maguena during our interview last year. All I'm saying is
[17:31] Speaker 2: it's not normal to have the SAPS without stability like this,
[17:37] Speaker 2: without proper leadership. And again, those that are acting and
[17:42] Speaker 2: are standing in, they're doing the best that they can.
[17:45] Speaker 2: But in a country like ours, with everything we face,
[17:48] Speaker 2: with a compromised police service that we have, you do
[17:52] Speaker 2: need the National Police Commissioner, especially if there's nothing, there's
[17:55] Speaker 2: nothing that stops them from going back to work. The
[17:58] Speaker 2: charges have been dropped. Let the acting National Police Commissioner
[18:02] Speaker 2: go back to her own tasks. Now you don't have
[18:07] Speaker 2: the Deputy National Police Commissioner Shadrach Sibiah is out. Who
[18:12] Speaker 2: was that other one, the Deputy National Police Commissioner, the
[18:14] Speaker 2: one responsible for procurement? Also what, on suspension because he
[18:18] Speaker 2: was also going to face D.C.? That's just not looking good,
[18:22] Speaker 2: and it doesn't bode well for you and I as
[18:25] Speaker 2: citizens of this country. But hey, let's wait and see
[18:29] Speaker 2: how long this instability within the SAPS will be allowed
[18:34] Speaker 2: to continue. Your voice.
[18:37] Speaker 5: Your station.
[18:38] Speaker 2: Your open line. Walk the talk with Clemens.
[18:42] Speaker 1: Manatella on 702.
[18:45] Speaker 12: Good morning, Muddy Major and your team. Gwerem Antashe has
[18:49] Speaker 12: always been arrogant. He will always be arrogant. This is
[18:52] Speaker 12: the same minister who was blackmailing communities when he was
[18:57] Speaker 12: doing door-to-door campaign a few weeks ago to vote ANC
[19:01] Speaker 12: because ANC provided RDPs and social grant. Knowing very well
[19:06] Speaker 12: it's not true. The government, it's the one who provides SASA.
[19:13] Speaker 12: and also RDP, not the ANC. He was emotionally blackmailing
[19:17] Speaker 12: the old lady when he was doing door-to-door campaign.
[19:20] Speaker 7: He's very arrogant.
[19:21] Speaker 12: Thank you so much, Madam Major.
[19:23] Speaker 2: It's Jabali Sinha from Mitre.
[19:26] Speaker 3: Very clement.
[19:28] Speaker 13: This great emantashia thing, is this a cognitive decline, an
[19:33] Speaker 13: example of cognitive decline that we're seeing here? Because he
[19:37] Speaker 13: is adamant and but it does not seem to be
[19:42] Speaker 13: factually correct.
[19:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, but why is everybody wrong and he's right? I mean,
[19:47] Speaker 2: isn't that at least what should show you that something
[19:50] Speaker 2: is wrong? And look, I don't want to go into
[19:53] Speaker 2: cognitive decline or not because I don't have evidence of that.
[19:58] Speaker 2: I mean, he's an old man. Maybe he was confused.
[20:03] Speaker 2: Maybe he remembers something different. But everybody else, everybody else says,
[20:09] Speaker 2: but ANC only speaks first. Unless somebody remembers differently, please
[20:14] Speaker 2: let me know. But Kusatu says, go back to all...
[20:17] Speaker 2: I mean, people are using even anecdotals. I'm telling you
[20:22] Speaker 2: that I used to cover the Kusatu Congress for as
[20:27] Speaker 2: long as I was a reporter, a politics reporter. I
[20:31] Speaker 2: remember the ANC only speaking first. So why did he think...
[20:36] Speaker 2: He was supposed to speak last, and I suspect it's
[20:39] Speaker 2: because he wanted to respond to Soli, but that doesn't
[20:42] Speaker 2: justify you just wanting to hijack an agenda that's already
[20:45] Speaker 2: been approved by Congress. That's not how it goes. But
[20:49] Speaker 2: broadly speaking, I'm asking, where does this leave the relationship
[20:52] Speaker 2: of this alliance? I mean, the ANC doesn't get along
[20:56] Speaker 2: with the SSCP. The ANC now at odds, and it's
[20:59] Speaker 2: been consistent for some time now with COSATU, And even
[21:03] Speaker 2: COSATU now has decided we are supporting the alliance in
[21:05] Speaker 2: the elections. We're not supporting the ANC or campaigning for
[21:09] Speaker 2: the ANC because the SACP is also running. Oh, what
[21:14] Speaker 2: a complicated relationship. Dimitri, you're calling us from Edenvale. What
[21:18] Speaker 2: do you want to say about the SAPS? Hi, good morning, Dimitri.
[21:21] Speaker 2: Good show as always.
[21:22] Speaker 4: Sure.
[21:23] Speaker 14: But just like you alluded that the country or the
[21:26] Speaker 14: SAPS is, you know, the stability, the instability is just
[21:29] Speaker 14: not good for our citizens. So I've got a very
[21:32] Speaker 14: simple solution. And my solution would be to re-employ and
[21:37] Speaker 14: re-engage all the old white general police personnel of management
[21:42] Speaker 14: level that retrenched or lost their jobs, re-employ them on
[21:46] Speaker 14: a contractual basis for like a year, two years or
[21:49] Speaker 14: whatever it takes to get them back on board and
[21:52] Speaker 14: bring back stability, experience and expertise to get the SAPS
[21:57] Speaker 14: back to.
[21:57] Speaker 5: What it was.
[21:59] Speaker 14: Because the way, I mean, I can't keep up with
[22:02] Speaker 14: who's who and who's enacting this and enacting that. And,
[22:06] Speaker 14: you know, commission after commission, we don't have the time
[22:10] Speaker 14: to get the SAPS back into a stable position. So
[22:14] Speaker 14: these people, I'm sure, have experience.
[22:17] Speaker 2: And bring them back. And that would be my solution.
[22:21] Speaker 15: All right.
[22:21] Speaker 2: Dimitri says bring back all the retired SAPS generals who
[22:26] Speaker 2: left the service early. until some of these top positions
[22:31] Speaker 2: are filled. Remember we, and let me know what you
[22:33] Speaker 2: think of Dimitri's suggestion here, 011-883-0702. Remember, these are not
[22:38] Speaker 2: just like the national commissioners not at work, the deputy national,
[22:42] Speaker 2: two deputy national police commissioners who are now out, another
[22:45] Speaker 2: one still facing a DC. There are other top cops
[22:48] Speaker 2: who are facing criminal charges. I think, what, 10, 11,
[22:51] Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken? So there is a vacuum here.
[22:57] Speaker 2: Women are being killed, there are mass murders, and generally
[23:01] Speaker 2: crime as we're used to continues to happen. And we
[23:05] Speaker 2: have a vacuum, a vacuum in top positions, a vacuum
[23:09] Speaker 2: in strategic leadership positions. And we don't know what's going on.
[23:14] Speaker 2: Because even the president who suspended Masamu on the basis
[23:19] Speaker 2: of charges is not saying the charges are dropped, therefore
[23:21] Speaker 2: go back to work. He's not telling us if he's
[23:24] Speaker 2: considering something else maybe that we're not aware of. In
[23:29] Speaker 2: a country like ours right now, I don't think it's
[23:32] Speaker 2: justifiable to have a commissioner not at work when there's
[23:36] Speaker 2: nothing stopping him from going back to work. And if
[23:39] Speaker 2: there is something stopping him, then at least tell us that.
[23:42] Speaker 2: It's 931. Your voice.
[23:45] Speaker 5: Your station.
[23:46] Speaker 2: Your open line.
[23:47] Speaker 1: Walk the talk with Clement Manietela.
[23:51] Speaker 2: On 702. 23 minutes before 10 o'clock, this is the
[23:55] Speaker 2: 702 open line. We've been reflecting on Shadrach Zubia, whom
[23:58] Speaker 2: I'm seeing on my screens right now because his bail
[24:01] Speaker 2: application resumes in the Renbeck Magistrates Court. we've been talking
[24:07] Speaker 2: about the leadership in the SAPS, but also Gwede Mantashe,
[24:10] Speaker 2: the chairperson of the ANC, who walked out of a
[24:13] Speaker 2: Congress of Kasati because he wanted to speak after the SACP,
[24:16] Speaker 2: and Kasati says, we're not going to change the program
[24:19] Speaker 2: for you because this is an adopted agenda, and ordinarily, traditionally,
[24:24] Speaker 2: as the ANC, you speak first when you are delivering
[24:28] Speaker 2: messages of support. So I'm taking your thoughts on that.
[24:32] Speaker 2: Let's take Lucky now, who is calling us from Pimville
[24:35] Speaker 2: in Soweto. Lucky, what do you want to say? Good morning.
[24:40] Speaker 5: Morning, morning, morning.
[24:41] Speaker 2: Sure, sure.
[24:42] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[24:43] Speaker 16: No, I would like to concur with the last caller.
[24:45] Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying?
[24:47] Speaker 5: Yeah.
[24:48] Speaker 4: Try and get the retired, you know, officers, you know, police.
[24:53] Speaker 4: He's 100%.
[24:54] Speaker 13: 100%.
[24:54] Speaker 14: We've been talking.
[24:56] Speaker 4: About this all along.
[24:57] Speaker 5: Okay.
[24:58] Speaker 2: Lucky? Lucky?
[24:59] Speaker 16: Engage, you know, they do not get... There's something wrong
[25:02] Speaker 16: with our leaders today, man.
[25:05] Speaker 15: Yeah.
[25:05] Speaker 8: You know, these people have availed themselves.
[25:07] Speaker 16: They've been to police station.
[25:09] Speaker 4: They've requested.
[25:10] Speaker 16: I know a friend of my cousin showed me a
[25:14] Speaker 16: letter that he wrote to Rapieha, you know, more than once.
[25:19] Speaker 11: Said, look, we want to help.
[25:20] Speaker 8: But they said, no, no, no.
[25:22] Speaker 4: You know, mind your own business.
[25:24] Speaker 15: Hmm.
[25:25] Speaker 3: Hmm.
[25:26] Speaker 2: And I think Dimitri now also speaks in the context
[25:29] Speaker 2: of the vacuum that's created. And I don't know what
[25:33] Speaker 2: the context was during Ria Piecha's time. But yeah, Dimitri's
[25:37] Speaker 2: saying all the generals, you know, the retired generals, how
[25:42] Speaker 2: about they come back because there's a vacuum and we
[25:45] Speaker 2: can't have a vacuum in a country like ours, which
[25:50] Speaker 2: is so riddled, riddled by crime. What's ups on 072702
[25:54] Speaker 2: on 702?
[25:59] Speaker 5: Oh, morning, morning, Clement.
[26:00] Speaker 17: Well, clearly, you can see that there's a reason why
[26:03] Speaker 17: the president doesn't want to reinstate Fadi Massamola.
[26:06] Speaker 5: There's a third force.
[26:08] Speaker 17: You can see that, I mean, his suspension, yes, it
[26:12] Speaker 17: may be communicated as though it was on the basis
[26:15] Speaker 17: of the charges.
[26:17] Speaker 3: But we know there's something else. There is a third force.
[26:21] Speaker 18: Clearly.
[26:22] Speaker 2: I mean, it's obvious.
[26:23] Speaker 3: Even if we've not been told.
[26:25] Speaker 17: Because otherwise, why has it not been reinstated when the
[26:28] Speaker 17: charges upon which he was suspended.
[26:31] Speaker 2: Have been dropped? Why has it not gone back to work?
[26:35] Speaker 5: So there's something that you and.
[26:36] Speaker 3: I do not know that the president knows about. It's obvious, clearly.
[26:41] Speaker 3: Praise in Bedfordville.
[26:54] Speaker 19: So obviously, I don't think he will come back because
[26:58] Speaker 19: he's retiring next day in March. So I think the
[27:02] Speaker 19: president must do a simple thing. And we appointed the
[27:07] Speaker 19: person acting police commissioner. I think she did well last
[27:16] Speaker 19: week when this match started. After the Concord judgment, the
[27:23] Speaker 19: lady was active. She proved that she can lead the SAPS.
[27:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, Chris Slavin. Okay, tell me, if it was you,
[27:35] Speaker 2: that was suspended because you were facing charges and you
[27:39] Speaker 2: still had seven months or six months to serve or
[27:42] Speaker 2: eight months before you retire and the charges against you
[27:46] Speaker 2: get dropped, are you comfortable with just staying at home
[27:50] Speaker 2: without going to finish your term? Because, oh, but I'm
[27:52] Speaker 2: retiring in six months anyway. So in other words, what
[27:56] Speaker 2: is the president fearing so much about Fadima Simula going
[27:59] Speaker 2: back to work to finish his term in the last
[28:01] Speaker 2: six months or so? What's the worst that could happen?
[28:05] Speaker 2: Is it going to cost the state more? I don't
[28:08] Speaker 2: think so. If anything, it's probably causing the state more
[28:12] Speaker 2: when he is not at work because you're getting somebody
[28:14] Speaker 2: else who is standing in, acting on their behalf, holding
[28:22] Speaker 2: the fort while they are also getting paid. What's the
[28:26] Speaker 2: worst that could happen if this man goes back to
[28:29] Speaker 2: work and finish off his term and he leaves properly
[28:32] Speaker 2: in March? I would want to do that. I want
[28:35] Speaker 2: to go back to work and make sure, you know,
[28:38] Speaker 2: you tie the loose ends, you know, you make sure
[28:40] Speaker 2: that you push what you wanted to push when you
[28:43] Speaker 2: started maybe a strategy. Like, just go close the book properly.
[28:49] Speaker 2: What are they fearing about this man going back to
[28:51] Speaker 2: work to serve his last six months in office? That's
[28:56] Speaker 2: the question I'm asking myself. Your voice.
[29:00] Speaker 5: Your station.
[29:01] Speaker 2: Your open line.
[29:02] Speaker 1: Walk the talk with Clement Manya-Taylor.
[29:06] Speaker 16: On 702.
[29:06] Speaker 11: Hey Clement, good morning. Clement here, Pinville, South. You know,
[29:09] Speaker 11: I like what you're saying. You know, sometimes I like
[29:12] Speaker 11: a person who has got a backbone, who stands by
[29:15] Speaker 11: what has always been done, who always stands by what
[29:19] Speaker 11: he thinks is right. Not that because everybody thinks you
[29:23] Speaker 11: are wrong, then you are wrong. No, it doesn't work
[29:25] Speaker 11: like that in real life. What COSATU did, they wanted
[29:29] Speaker 11: to make SACP happy.
[29:31] Speaker 2: Over the ANC.
[29:32] Speaker 11: And the Gojima Dacha saw that happen and said, no,
[29:35] Speaker 11: I'm not going to participate in that.
[29:37] Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I'm leaving. Wait, how did the...
[29:40] Speaker 2: Kossati want to make SAPS happy though?
[29:44] Speaker 15: Huh?
[29:45] Speaker 2: Because we must still ground our arguments in fact. The
[29:47] Speaker 2: fact is, traditionally the ANC speaks first. So how did
[29:54] Speaker 2: Kossati make the SACP happy? I'm not understanding that. Mandasho
[30:01] Speaker 2: wanted the program to change because he's thinking politically. I
[30:06] Speaker 2: have to respond to Soli because I know what he's
[30:08] Speaker 2: going to say about the ANC. Yeah, I'm not getting it.
[30:14] Speaker 2: But please, you can send another voice note to explain
[30:16] Speaker 2: what is it that COSATU did that contradicted its own
[30:19] Speaker 2: agenda and its own processes to make the SSCP happy.
[30:25] Speaker 2: Maybe explain that and then maybe I'll get the point.
[30:30] Speaker 20: Hey, morning, Chairman. I think we are confused about Gwede Mantashe.
[30:35] Speaker 20: You know ANC as the leader of the alliance, Chairman.
[30:39] Speaker 20: Is there a prerogative to.
[30:40] Speaker 2: Speak first or to speak last?
[30:43] Speaker 3: I don't see anything that Mantashe has done.
[30:46] Speaker 2: You are right as for Soli.
[30:47] Speaker 20: Mantashe was supposed to answer what Soli could have said.
[30:50] Speaker 2: That's why he chose to speak last.
[30:52] Speaker 20: So what I'm saying to you as a prerogative for
[30:55] Speaker 20: the African National Congress, they have the right to speak whether.
[30:59] Speaker 2: first or even last. That's what I'm saying to you.
[31:01] Speaker 2: I don't see any problem. Thank you, Clement.
[31:07] Speaker 1: By the way, did you follow the arguments in the
[31:18] Speaker 1: constitutional court yesterday in the ANC case protesting this.
[31:23] Speaker 2: Exclusion of 181 of its candidates on technical grounds? I
[31:28] Speaker 2: remember the ANC failed to submit the nominations before the
[31:31] Speaker 2: set deadline on the online system. And as a result,
[31:34] Speaker 2: they were excluded from contesting in the six municipalities due
[31:38] Speaker 2: to the fact that they didn't press the submit button
[31:42] Speaker 2: after uploading details of its candidates to contest municipal elections
[31:47] Speaker 2: on the commission's online candidate nomination system. So 181 candidates
[31:52] Speaker 2: of the ANC are affected by this. So the ANC yesterday,
[31:56] Speaker 2: which I thought was so interesting, They were arguing that
[31:59] Speaker 2: a condition that removes a party from the ballot must
[32:02] Speaker 2: be found in law. So their argument is the IEC's
[32:06] Speaker 2: rule on submit as final cannot be found in the
[32:10] Speaker 2: Municipal Electoral Act or any regulations for that matter and
[32:14] Speaker 2: therefore cannot have any legal effect. So sure, the IEC
[32:20] Speaker 2: can have all the mechanisms to administer the election, but
[32:23] Speaker 2: that can't contain a requirement that invalidates a submission and
[32:27] Speaker 2: excludes a party from the elections. But I just think
[32:33] Speaker 2: if the ANC is successful in their bid now, what
[32:37] Speaker 2: do you think the consequence is going to be? Because
[32:39] Speaker 2: advocate Daniel Berger, who was arguing on behalf of the ANC,
[32:46] Speaker 2: submitted that its candidate list supporting documents and payments Those
[32:51] Speaker 2: were there arguing that the only outstanding step was pressing
[32:54] Speaker 2: the final submission button. And he says the IEC already
[32:59] Speaker 2: had access to all the information. But if you don't
[33:04] Speaker 2: press submit, do you still have then the relevant information,
[33:11] Speaker 2: the other party on the other side? And if the
[33:13] Speaker 2: IEC says, well, you didn't press submit and therefore there's
[33:17] Speaker 2: nothing we can do about it, What does it do
[33:20] Speaker 2: with the deposit or the money that the ANC has paid?
[33:23] Speaker 2: Does it pay that money back? I wanted us to
[33:26] Speaker 2: really get into this. But if you've got thoughts on that,
[33:28] Speaker 2: I'd like to hear what you thought of, what the
[33:30] Speaker 2: ANC argued, what the DA argued, what the IEC argued
[33:34] Speaker 2: as well. You can call us on 011-883-0702. It's 13
[33:39] Speaker 2: minutes now before 10. Dumela, welcome to the second hour
[33:43] Speaker 2: of the Clement Manyatela show. Thank you so much for
[33:45] Speaker 2: staying with us here. on 702 and thank you for
[33:49] Speaker 2: your contributions on the 702 open line which by the
[33:52] Speaker 2: way i'm going to continue with um so we've just
[33:55] Speaker 2: been informed by our guest the president of the anc
[33:59] Speaker 2: youth league um that something else came up currently there's
[34:03] Speaker 2: a crisis they're dealing with in the eastern cape and
[34:06] Speaker 2: therefore he's unable to really join us um this hour
[34:10] Speaker 2: he wanted to give us somebody else but you know
[34:12] Speaker 2: we wanted the president of the anc youth league we
[34:14] Speaker 2: wanted to engage with him so We'll see if we
[34:18] Speaker 2: can reschedule that conversation for another day. So what I'm
[34:21] Speaker 2: going to do now is continue the conversation I started
[34:24] Speaker 2: just before we spoke to Kepetek about the ANC and
[34:28] Speaker 2: their case in the constitutional court. What do you make
[34:32] Speaker 2: of the argument that the legal counsel representing the ANC
[34:38] Speaker 2: made about the legality of these requirements and from the
[34:46] Speaker 2: IEC because their argument is that the IEC's rule on
[34:50] Speaker 2: submit as final cannot be found in the Municipal Electoral
[34:53] Speaker 2: Act or any regulations for that matter and therefore it
[34:57] Speaker 2: does not have legal effect which is true right but
[35:03] Speaker 2: the IEC has mechanisms to administer the election you know
[35:08] Speaker 2: they've got requirements which the AMC itself has met over
[35:13] Speaker 2: the last couple of years And now because the ANC
[35:17] Speaker 2: didn't click final or submit as a final measure of
[35:22] Speaker 2: that submission process, then they're now finding something wrong with
[35:28] Speaker 2: the processes and the requirements. The DA has said that
[35:31] Speaker 2: if the court rules in favor of the ANC, then
[35:33] Speaker 2: that's going to affect the credibility of elections. Can you imagine?
[35:36] Speaker 2: I mean, if the court says, okay, this is not
[35:39] Speaker 2: founded in law, The IEC perhaps needs to somehow make
[35:45] Speaker 2: this a legal basis. Next year, or not next year,
[35:51] Speaker 2: but in the next elections, if that is not made
[35:56] Speaker 2: a legal status, then there are people that are just
[36:01] Speaker 2: going to not submit in time because they're going to
[36:04] Speaker 2: wait for much later to press submit because, you know,
[36:07] Speaker 2: that's just a requirement, right? It's not binding. legally binding, quote-unquote.
[36:13] Speaker 2: But maybe the Constitutional Court, if it rules in favor
[36:16] Speaker 2: of the ANC, it will say to the IEC, you know,
[36:18] Speaker 2: go make this law so that it can stand, you know,
[36:25] Speaker 2: the legal test. Otherwise, it's just a requirement and any
[36:28] Speaker 2: other party can come and easily challenge it based on
[36:32] Speaker 2: the fact that it doesn't have any legal effect. I
[36:36] Speaker 2: want you to listen, though, and then I'm going to
[36:37] Speaker 2: come to your calls and your WhatsApps because I'm interested
[36:39] Speaker 2: in your thoughts here. I want you to listen to
[36:42] Speaker 2: the ANC lawyer who was arguing in the Constitutional Court
[36:49] Speaker 2: yesterday and the argument that he put forward.
[36:54] Speaker 21: At the end of the day, as this court, we
[36:57] Speaker 21: have to explain to the community that this court's judgment
[37:05] Speaker 21: as the Electoral Court will disenfranchise the voters. People will
[37:12] Speaker 21: not participate in the forthcoming elections because of one added
[37:18] Speaker 21: requirement which now becomes an extra legal rule. How will
[37:24] Speaker 21: this Court then be able to convey its expression to
[37:31] Speaker 21: the communities that would say, but I have a right,
[37:34] Speaker 21: you've told me that we have a right in terms
[37:37] Speaker 21: of Section 19 of the Constitution.
[37:39] Speaker 2: What happens to my right?
[37:40] Speaker 21: Why is my right now diluted by that software button?
[37:46] Speaker 22: Not only that, Justice Matopo, I would tell the community
[37:51] Speaker 22: that the law says to the IEC, If you want
[37:58] Speaker 22: to make regulations that you consider necessary or expedient in
[38:05] Speaker 22: order to achieve the objects of the Act, even if
[38:07] Speaker 22: they're not mandated by the Act, even if they're not
[38:12] Speaker 22: expressly required by the Act, you must publish those regulations
[38:17] Speaker 22: made in terms of this section in the Gazette, and
[38:20] Speaker 22: the community will say, well, where did they publish the
[38:23] Speaker 22: button the use of the button in the Gazette, and
[38:26] Speaker 22: you'll have to say, well, they didn't. They sat in
[38:31] Speaker 22: 2016 and somebody said, you know what's a great idea,
[38:35] Speaker 22: let's introduce a system which has this button.
[38:39] Speaker 5: And they did so. And that became law?
[38:43] Speaker 21: It cannot be.
[38:44] Speaker 22: It cannot be that that became law.
[38:47] Speaker 2: So that's the argument that Advocate Berger, Senior Counsel, made
[38:52] Speaker 2: in 2016. in favor of the ANC or in advancing
[38:56] Speaker 2: the ANC's point. And I want you to tell me
[39:01] Speaker 2: what you think of that. Because I really thought, I mean,
[39:04] Speaker 2: initially when the, you know, the electoral court ruled, I
[39:07] Speaker 2: thought the ANC doesn't stand a chance here. But after
[39:09] Speaker 2: listening to some of his arguments, you know, because of
[39:12] Speaker 2: some of the rights that may be violated as a
[39:15] Speaker 2: result of, you know, these, you know, municipalities or as
[39:21] Speaker 2: a result of ANC being excluded from contesting in those municipalities,
[39:25] Speaker 2: then I was sort of convinced that perhaps the ANC's
[39:27] Speaker 2: case here may still be revived, right? A screen design
[39:32] Speaker 2: that was not promulgated by regulation is not law. And
[39:35] Speaker 2: that's really what Advocate Berger was arguing. And maybe that's
[39:38] Speaker 2: actually what's going to save the ANC here. But then again,
[39:42] Speaker 2: the rules and norms and standards have been in place
[39:44] Speaker 2: for 30 years. The NC has never taken issue with it.
[39:48] Speaker 2: It's taking issue with it now because they failed to
[39:51] Speaker 2: meet the deadline. So if you're changing those rules and
[39:56] Speaker 2: norms and standards at the behest of this big, largest party,
[40:02] Speaker 2: what message are you sending? And as a society, don't
[40:06] Speaker 2: you think we need rules? You know, apart from the laws,
[40:10] Speaker 2: we need rules. Otherwise, we don't have a standard of living.
[40:14] Speaker 2: Rules are important. So, It's like when you submit an
[40:17] Speaker 2: assignment at university, when you are submitting a tender, when
[40:21] Speaker 2: you're applying for a job, there are things that are standardized.
[40:27] Speaker 2: Like if it's 2 p.m., you have to meet the
[40:30] Speaker 2: deadline for that submission. And that's equally the same thing here.
[40:36] Speaker 2: And I think that's really going to be a bit
[40:38] Speaker 2: of a conundrum for the constitutional court. Listen now to
[40:42] Speaker 2: the DA legal representative advocate. I think it's Michael Bishop.
[40:45] Speaker 2: who was arguing that all parties have to be treated equally,
[40:50] Speaker 2: adding that it won't be free and fair elections if
[40:53] Speaker 2: there's selective adherence to the law.
[40:56] Speaker 23: Upload your data, your candidate list, in a Word document
[40:59] Speaker 23: or in a Google Doc.
[41:01] Speaker 5: You will not be able to.
[41:02] Speaker 2: The system will not let you.
[41:04] Speaker 23: And if you don't get an Excel spreadsheet up in time,
[41:07] Speaker 23: you will not compete in the election. You will be disqualified.
[41:10] Speaker 23: It's exactly the same with the submitter's final buttons. It's
[41:12] Speaker 23: the same as the five megabytes limit. If you try
[41:15] Speaker 23: to submit a six megabyte document, the system will not
[41:18] Speaker 23: let you upload it. And if you don't do it
[41:20] Speaker 23: in time, you will not be on the ballot. So
[41:23] Speaker 23: it's exactly the same. These requirements all can result in disqualification.
[41:28] Speaker 23: There's no line between disqualifying requirements of the system and
[41:31] Speaker 23: non-disqualifying requirements of the system. If the ANC had just
[41:35] Speaker 23: pushed the button, it would not have been disqualified. But
[41:39] Speaker 23: even if we take the ANC's line, between those that
[41:42] Speaker 23: would create a requirement that would disqualify, that unless that
[41:46] Speaker 23: requirement is also in the Act. We say the requirement
[41:49] Speaker 23: is in the Act, because what the button does is
[41:52] Speaker 23: declare the intent to contest the election. But one of
[41:59] Speaker 23: the consequences, if we accept you can't draw this line
[42:01] Speaker 23: between permissible requirements and impermissible requirements, that means you cannot
[42:06] Speaker 23: have any requirements in the CNS system.
[42:09] Speaker 2: You cannot have any of them at all.
[42:11] Speaker 23: What does that mean? It means electronic submission could only
[42:13] Speaker 23: occur if all the detailed requirements were in regulation, were
[42:17] Speaker 23: prescribed in the regulation. And that would mean either that
[42:21] Speaker 23: the current regulations are unlawful, because they do not prescribe
[42:24] Speaker 23: all the details, but there is no challenge to the
[42:27] Speaker 23: regulation before this Court. This Court must accept the regulations
[42:30] Speaker 23: as they are, and the regulations leave the details to
[42:34] Speaker 23: the system. Or it would mean that the Commission cannot
[42:38] Speaker 23: enforce those requirements. That's really what the ANC asks for.
[42:42] Speaker 23: It wants to prevent the commission from enforcing some of
[42:45] Speaker 23: the structural elements of the CNS system. But it cannot
[42:49] Speaker 23: draw the line that pushes its final button. It will
[42:52] Speaker 23: apply to all these other requirements, and it should apply
[42:54] Speaker 23: to this election. It will create absolute chaos if the
[42:58] Speaker 23: court finds that, because it's not just about those 2,274
[43:02] Speaker 23: candidates who have loaded but did not push submit as final.
[43:05] Speaker 23: What about all the other parties and candidates who we
[43:08] Speaker 23: don't know about, who tried to use the system as designed, failed,
[43:13] Speaker 23: didn't get their listen on time. The effect of the
[43:15] Speaker 23: argument that no requirement can be enforced unless it is
[43:20] Speaker 23: in the regulation is that all those parties need another
[43:22] Speaker 23: opportunity to submit their candidates because the whole system was
[43:26] Speaker 23: out of order.
[43:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that a strong argument as well from Advocate Bishop's?
[43:37] Speaker 2: Someone sent a message on the WhatsApp line. Dear SARS,
[43:41] Speaker 2: I had the documents ready for upload. I just forgot
[43:44] Speaker 2: to press the upload button. I thus reject your penalty
[43:48] Speaker 2: as I submitted my text return. I mean, isn't that
[43:53] Speaker 2: the same argument? I mean, you could say to SARS, yeah,
[43:56] Speaker 2: but I did submit. I just forgot to send send. So, yeah,
[44:00] Speaker 2: your penalty? Unfortunately, no, I reject it. Yeah, what a
[44:04] Speaker 2: better way to put it, TC on the WhatsApp line.
[44:07] Speaker 2: Thank you. Okay, before I come to your calls and
[44:09] Speaker 2: your WhatsApps, I want you to listen to the argument
[44:11] Speaker 2: that the IEC put forward. I think Advocate Terry Mutau
[44:15] Speaker 2: was representing the IEC.
[44:17] Speaker 7: The answer that the Commission gives to those allegations in
[44:22] Speaker 7: the founding affidavit, it is specifically that the alleged technical difficulties.
[44:32] Speaker 7: Were not borne out by the objective facts, i.e., the
[44:36] Speaker 7: system was checked in accordance with what the ANC had said,
[44:40] Speaker 7: and that.
[44:43] Speaker 2: Those difficulties were not found.
[44:46] Speaker 7: And it is then the migration point that we are
[44:49] Speaker 7: talking about, the mutation point, that it is impermissible we
[44:55] Speaker 7: submit and it ought not to be countenanced that even
[45:00] Speaker 7: before this court there is a half-hearted pressing of the
[45:05] Speaker 7: alleged difficulties but what the ANC then seeks to contend
[45:10] Speaker 7: it says well it doesn't matter because those are immaterial
[45:14] Speaker 7: because now for the first time in the context of
[45:17] Speaker 7: this dispute we should turn to the the requirements, and
[45:23] Speaker 7: interpret them differently from how it has always interpreted.
[45:29] Speaker 5: Them.
[45:29] Speaker 2: This would really be a backdoor agreement, which then disadvantages
[45:35] Speaker 2: other political parties. Can you imagine there's a party out
[45:38] Speaker 2: there that probably also just couldn't meet the deadline and
[45:41] Speaker 2: therefore had to give up contesting in other municipalities? What
[45:48] Speaker 2: then message do you send to them? because they accepted
[45:51] Speaker 2: that these are the requirements. But the ANC says, well,
[45:54] Speaker 2: we didn't press submit, but we must still be allowed
[45:58] Speaker 2: to contest, because actually your regulations are not law. But
[46:01] Speaker 2: the ANC didn't go to the Constitutional Court to challenge
[46:04] Speaker 2: the regulations, I mean the requirements. They didn't do. But
[46:09] Speaker 2: that becomes a, by the way, these are not even
[46:14] Speaker 2: founded in law. But they went there because they just
[46:18] Speaker 2: think it's unfair. They had already uploaded the documents. They
[46:22] Speaker 2: just didn't press the submit button, but they've done so
[46:25] Speaker 2: over the years. So now they're trying to find other
[46:28] Speaker 2: ways to justify why the court must rule in their favor. Godfrey,
[46:33] Speaker 2: you are calling us from Midrand. What do you think
[46:35] Speaker 2: of these arguments?
[46:35] Speaker 9: Now, why are we even.
[46:36] Speaker 24: Talking about the past 10 years?
[46:37] Speaker 4: These guys have muted.
[46:45] Speaker 9: The greater proportion of their candidates, they did press submit
[46:51] Speaker 9: on 2000 orders, so I don't know the number. But
[46:54] Speaker 9: the issue of the dispute is about 181. Why is
[46:57] Speaker 9: ANC playing games? Berger has changed from where these guys were.
[47:03] Speaker 9: They ran out of time. Because they were busy fighting,
[47:07] Speaker 9: they did.
[47:11] Speaker 24: Not press up meat.
[47:13] Speaker 9: They did not meet the deadline. The deadline came and went.
[47:17] Speaker 9: So you can't open that window purely on the basis
[47:20] Speaker 9: of beggars and serious arguments. And no advocate with due
[47:25] Speaker 9: respect to the legal fraternity will tell you or not,
[47:28] Speaker 9: we're going to lose this case. They'll fight and give
[47:32] Speaker 9: you the impression.
[47:32] Speaker 4: That they know what they're talking about.
[47:35] Speaker 9: Up to and including the last minute, because you're paying
[47:38] Speaker 9: for it anyway. So I am not.
[47:43] Speaker 14: Amused by the fact that we now have a situation.
[47:46] Speaker 9: Where somebody who really should not be, in my view,
[47:53] Speaker 9: in front of that court is arguing in what I
[47:57] Speaker 9: find very spurious an argument and wants the court really
[48:02] Speaker 9: to take.
[48:03] Speaker 4: Them seriously given A.
[48:05] Speaker 9: The time and the unfairness of ANC not meeting a deadline.
[48:11] Speaker 4: Because the question is simple.
[48:13] Speaker 9: Did they press up meet? The answer is no.
[48:16] Speaker 2: They're saying there were technical issues but the IEC says
[48:20] Speaker 2: we've checked the system we didn't find any technical challenges
[48:24] Speaker 2: that the ANC claims to exist.
[48:27] Speaker 9: I will not even address myself to that, because you
[48:31] Speaker 9: need a technical expert, which unfortunately the ANC.
[48:34] Speaker 4: Has not presented.
[48:35] Speaker 9: If they brought an IT, called Magma Major, from IT services,
[48:41] Speaker 9: the OPG, Marcy or whatever, you know, I would understand
[48:46] Speaker 9: what their.
[48:47] Speaker 24: Technical advisor would be. They don't even have a technical advisor.
[48:52] Speaker 24: They have this Leonard's friend, Berger, who comes up and
[48:57] Speaker 24: really because he's more for liberals.
[48:59] Speaker 9: And whatnot, If the court finds in their favor, then
[49:06] Speaker 9: it really means the law, the dogs have come to
[49:09] Speaker 9: the court. They must sit this one out just like
[49:16] Speaker 9: they need to correct Taba Yalungi's offense.
[49:20] Speaker 4: Example.
[49:21] Speaker 9: The ANC has fumbled its way in all this mess.
[49:25] Speaker 2: So there's an issue here, Godfrey. Two questions quickly before
[49:28] Speaker 2: you go. One, do you then think, because the ANC says,
[49:31] Speaker 2: but we also paid the money for these candidates now
[49:34] Speaker 2: that won't be contesting if the court doesn't rule in
[49:36] Speaker 2: their favor. So must the IUC... pay back that money
[49:40] Speaker 2: to the ANC, one. Number two, what about the constitutional
[49:44] Speaker 2: rights of the candidates, right? Because these are people who,
[49:48] Speaker 2: they have a right to contest elections, but also we
[49:51] Speaker 2: as South Africans have a right to vote for the
[49:54] Speaker 2: candidates that we prefer. So if these requirements then excludes
[49:59] Speaker 2: those candidates, do we not have rights then that are
[50:01] Speaker 2: violated then in the process?
[50:04] Speaker 9: The candidates must put it on their incompetent party and
[50:12] Speaker 9: useless Secretary General. Not on the IEC, no. The candidates
[50:20] Speaker 9: have not been deprived by you and I or by
[50:24] Speaker 9: the IEC. It is purely the ANC's fault. It is
[50:29] Speaker 9: their party that has fallen short. So the party must
[50:33] Speaker 9: take up the issue just like young Lungisa took it
[50:37] Speaker 9: up and took the ANC to court.
[50:40] Speaker 2: Okay. Got you. Godfrey in Midland, thank you for your call. Koketsu,
[50:44] Speaker 2: you're in the East End. What do you think?
[50:47] Speaker 25: Yes, morning, Clement. I think, you know, to be honest,
[50:51] Speaker 25: I agree 100% with the previous caller. I actually think,
[50:55] Speaker 25: you know, we must even also pose another question to
[50:58] Speaker 25: people to say that in terms of the secretary-general that
[51:01] Speaker 25: the ANC has had, is Fidel Mbalula actually the worst,
[51:05] Speaker 25: most incompetent secretary-general? Because, you know, Clement, if you can't
[51:10] Speaker 25: get your administrative issues right, right, how do you expect
[51:13] Speaker 25: for voters to go and trust you with the country?
[51:16] Speaker 25: You're failing with basic administrative issues.
[51:19] Speaker 2: Basic administrative issues.
[51:21] Speaker 25: Yeah, and remember, it's like what Professor Soma Dota Sikemi said.
[51:24] Speaker 2: The economy?
[51:25] Speaker 25: This is a problem that they're facing in the Public
[51:28] Speaker 25: Service Commission, where people get state-of-the-art laptops, but the person
[51:32] Speaker 25: doesn't even know how to use a basic, basic software,
[51:36] Speaker 25: you know? So this is basically speaking to me, I
[51:39] Speaker 25: honestly think, the incompetence of the ANC. And it's actually quite,
[51:44] Speaker 25: how could I say it? I wouldn't even say pathetic.
[51:46] Speaker 25: I'd actually say it's actually quite distressing and sad, to
[51:49] Speaker 25: be quite honest, to see a great liberation movement having
[51:54] Speaker 25: declined to this extent that they can't get basic administrative
[51:58] Speaker 25: issues right. And it's an indictment on them. And, you know,
[52:01] Speaker 25: as the previous caller said, they should actually right now
[52:05] Speaker 25: have removed Mbalila as the Secretary General because this is
[52:08] Speaker 25: beyond incompetence.
[52:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't hold your breath. That ain't going to happen.
[52:14] Speaker 2: I thought you were talking about what Somata Tafukeni said
[52:16] Speaker 2: about the political economy of inefficiency, because that is something
[52:22] Speaker 2: else that we're seeing in these parties in our government
[52:25] Speaker 2: as well. All right, Goketsu in the Eastland, thank you.
[52:27] Speaker 2: Here are some WhatsApps that have come through. Hi, good morning, Clement.
[52:32] Speaker 2: This is Manga from Rosebank.
[52:36] Speaker 26: Terem Tau was battling yesterday to answer the question, when
[52:42] Speaker 26: the axe falls, what turns on that final submit button?
[52:50] Speaker 5: What turns on it?
[52:53] Speaker 26: We find out that there's nothing that turns really on
[52:56] Speaker 26: that final submit button because even if you press final submit,
[53:02] Speaker 26: if the time still permits you, you can... You can
[53:05] Speaker 26: make changes. And that is where the IEC is going
[53:09] Speaker 26: to lose this case. That button is a red herring.
[53:13] Speaker 26: The ANC is winning this case, and it's going to
[53:17] Speaker 26: be egg on the.
[53:18] Speaker 2: Face of the IEC.
[53:20] Speaker 5: Thanks.
[53:21] Speaker 2: Hi, good morning, Clement.
[53:24] Speaker 27: I've been following this court case between the ANC and
[53:27] Speaker 27: the IEC, but nowhere do I hear them giving the
[53:32] Speaker 27: reason for not... pressing the submit button. Why didn't they
[53:39] Speaker 27: press the submit button to avoid all this court case?
[53:46] Speaker 2: Thank you. Bye-bye.
[53:50] Speaker 11: Morning, Clement.
[53:51] Speaker 18: Yeah, yesterday I was listening for those arguments at the
[53:54] Speaker 18: Concord Court. ANC is going to win that case. The
[53:58] Speaker 18: way I was listening, I don't have the fact, but
[54:00] Speaker 18: I'm saying it's.
[54:01] Speaker 2: Going to win it.
[54:02] Speaker 18: And it's where we are going to hear that people
[54:04] Speaker 18: who are going to say judges, they were biased. But
[54:07] Speaker 18: if you are listening attentively, I know those people, they
[54:12] Speaker 18: can reason and they can ask you the question also.
[54:16] Speaker 18: Because the problem is the pattern there. ANC already submitted
[54:21] Speaker 18: those things. The only thing is they didn't push the
[54:23] Speaker 18: pattern by the way I was listening. Thank you, Clement Busayet,
[54:27] Speaker 18: Sky Seat.
[54:27] Speaker 2: Bye-bye.
[54:29] Speaker 9: Clement, hi.
[54:30] Speaker 3: This is probably very simplistic, right?
[54:32] Speaker 15: But imagine you're a student registered with UNISA and you
[54:39] Speaker 15: must submit an assignment and your deadline is midnight on
[54:44] Speaker 15: a particular date.
[54:45] Speaker 3: And you've done the assignment. It's there.
[54:47] Speaker 15: You upload it. And then you don't press submit.
[54:52] Speaker 28: You don't press submit. What then do we say? And
[54:56] Speaker 28: I accept it's a very simplistic approach. but I ask
[54:59] Speaker 28: if the principle is then not the same. Because what
[55:02] Speaker 28: is full compliance? Compliance is you have got to check
[55:06] Speaker 28: off every single step. Now, if you don't take every
[55:10] Speaker 28: single step, how is it that you can say that
[55:12] Speaker 28: you have fully complied? Because in order for you to
[55:15] Speaker 28: get a grading for your assignment, you must have fully complied.
[55:20] Speaker 15: Just my thoughts.
[55:22] Speaker 14: Yeah.
[55:22] Speaker 2: Manda, in Rosebank, what do you think?
[55:26] Speaker 4: Yes.
[55:26] Speaker 2: So, there is.
[55:28] Speaker 8: Hi.
[55:29] Speaker 16: So Terimta was fumbling yesterday when he was told that
[55:35] Speaker 16: the significant thing there was the effluxion of time, which
[55:39] Speaker 16: was at 5 o'clock, 1700 hours, because anything that happens,
[55:45] Speaker 16: even if you press a button three hours before the deadline,
[55:51] Speaker 16: you can go back and make amendments. So final submit button,
[55:56] Speaker 16: whether you press it at three o'clock, it is a
[55:59] Speaker 16: red herring. You can go back and change it again.
[56:02] Speaker 16: But when they said to him, when the axe falls,
[56:05] Speaker 16: what happens to the information that was already hanging on
[56:09] Speaker 16: the system? And then he admitted that, you know, the
[56:14] Speaker 16: IEC had the information. So if you have the information,
[56:18] Speaker 16: if you have the information, then why don't you act
[56:20] Speaker 16: on it?
[56:22] Speaker 2: So the issue is just the pressing of that button submit.
[56:26] Speaker 2: because the information is... But what about what the requirements
[56:30] Speaker 2: actually say, Mandla? Because the requirements are clear in that
[56:34] Speaker 2: you don't just upload those documents. You actually press that
[56:38] Speaker 2: submit button. I mean, I'm now looking at the technicality
[56:42] Speaker 2: of the wording now of the requirement. How much value
[56:46] Speaker 2: then does that hold? Because then I'm going to try
[56:50] Speaker 2: and find loopholes in any other requirements, whether here at
[56:53] Speaker 2: work and what they say about whether leave day or
[56:55] Speaker 2: We can all find loopholes somewhere, but how is it worded?
[56:59] Speaker 2: And the way it's worded, did the ANC comply?
[57:03] Speaker 16: Well, so that loophole is so gaping because whether you
[57:08] Speaker 16: press it or not, the issue is that when you
[57:11] Speaker 16: are uploading that information, the information is available on the
[57:18] Speaker 16: IEC's own system. So the significant thing here is the
[57:24] Speaker 16: time lapse. The moment it hits 1700 hours, whatever information
[57:30] Speaker 16: you have submitted, then the IEC must work with that information.
[57:36] Speaker 16: But to rely on the pressing of a button, something
[57:39] Speaker 16: that is not even in the rule, it's not even
[57:42] Speaker 16: in the act, then because of that, you must disenfranchise voters.
[57:47] Speaker 16: There's no way the Concord will agree with the IEC there. So, unfortunately,
[57:53] Speaker 16: this is standing in the face, staring in the face
[57:56] Speaker 16: of the IEC, as a defeat. The electoral court didn't
[58:00] Speaker 16: even apply their mind to this, and I think shame
[58:03] Speaker 16: on them.
[58:03] Speaker 2: Yeah, Mandla and Rosebank, thank you. And I must say,
[58:06] Speaker 2: that for me was the argument also that made me
[58:09] Speaker 2: realize the ANC may win this case. I mean, I'm
[58:11] Speaker 2: just playing devil's advocate here to also bring in the
[58:14] Speaker 2: other arguments. But yeah, let's see. Apparently, they will try
[58:19] Speaker 2: and deliver judgment as soon as possible. It's just after 10.30.

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