# #702Openline: Social media versus church as a sacred space and religious intolerance

An episode of [The Clement Manyathela Show](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1201147442), 28 Oct 2026, 1 h 08 min.

Audio: https://traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/5dcefa8e-00a9-4595-8ce1-a4ab0080f142/366c625b-e6db-4376-8e27-a6f300c8de6f/4bea7b2c-90e1-4563-9342-b4f100787670/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=4b2990fe-a25d-4dca-afbf-a6f300cfc2ae

Clement Manyathela and listeners discuss whether recording in environments of worship for social media compromises the sacred nature of congregating and further unpack how religious intolerance shows itself on social media. The Clement Manyathela Show is broadcast on 702, a Johannesburg based talk radio station, weekdays from 09:00 to 12:00 (SA Time). Clement Manyathela starts his show each weekday on 702 at 9 am taking your calls and voice notes on his Open Line. In the second hour of his show, he unpacks, explains, and makes sense of the news of the day. Clement has several features in his third hour from 11 am that provide you with information to help and guide you through your daily life. As your morning friend, he tackles the serious as well as the light-hearted, on your behalf. Thank you for listening to a podcast from The Clement Manyathela Show. Listen live on Primedia+ weekdays from 09:00 and 12:00 (SA Time) to The Clement Manyathela Show broadcast on 702 https://buff.ly/gk3y0Kj For more from the show go to https://buff.ly/XijPLtJ or find all the catch-up podcasts here https://buff.ly/p0gWuPE Subscribe to the 702 Daily and Weekly Newsletters https://buff.ly/v5mfetc Follow us on social media: 702 on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TalkRadio702 702 on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@talkradio702 702 on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/talkradio702/ 702 on X: https://x.com/Radio702 702 on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@radio702 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:02] Speaker 1: You're with Clement Manatella on 702.
[0:05] Speaker 2: Let's walk the talk. Streaming on the Prime Media Plus app.
[0:09] Speaker 3: DSTV Channel 856, 92.7 and 106 FM. 8 minutes after
[1:22] Speaker 3: 9 o'clock. Welcome to the Wednesday edition of the Clement
[1:26] Speaker 3: Manutela show. It's wonderful to have you with us here
[1:29] Speaker 3: on 702. I hope you're well this morning and I
[1:31] Speaker 3: hope you're ready for the Ekuruleni mayoral debate tomorrow. Remember,
[1:37] Speaker 3: we're going to be in Ekuruleni tomorrow to speak to
[1:41] Speaker 3: some of your mayoral candidates. These are the people that
[1:44] Speaker 3: want to run your city. These are the people who
[1:47] Speaker 3: are trying to vie for your vote. So I really
[1:50] Speaker 3: encourage you to come and join us in False Loras
[1:55] Speaker 3: at Nguni Hall. So we're going to be at Nguni
[1:59] Speaker 3: Hall in False Loras for the Ekuruleni Meral debate, which
[2:03] Speaker 3: is going to start at nine o'clock. But I encourage
[2:05] Speaker 3: you to arrive around half past eight so that when
[2:08] Speaker 3: we start the open line at nine o'clock, you are
[2:10] Speaker 3: there and we can incorporate you into the open line.
[2:14] Speaker 3: And then that debate starts. is going to start running
[2:16] Speaker 3: from 10 o'clock. So Okorole, this is your turn. Come through,
[2:21] Speaker 3: come and listen to the mayoral candidates that are vying
[2:24] Speaker 3: for your votes and come and ask them questions. Come
[2:26] Speaker 3: and hold them accountable. Tomorrow from 9 o'clock until 12,
[2:30] Speaker 3: we'll be live at the Nguni Hall in Falls La Rosse.
[2:33] Speaker 3: I'm hoping to see you there. We start the show
[2:35] Speaker 3: though with the 702 open line on 011-883-0702. You can
[2:37] Speaker 3: send us your WhatsApps on 072-702-1702. Now, have you been
[2:46] Speaker 3: seeing what's happening globally? There's like this global shift when
[2:51] Speaker 3: it comes to voter turnout. And I wonder if that's
[2:53] Speaker 3: going to be our story here in South Africa next week. So,
[2:58] Speaker 3: the Israelis have gone to the votes. They voted yesterday
[3:03] Speaker 3: and it's still early to even know what the results
[3:08] Speaker 3: look like because they're still trickling in. But the polls
[3:11] Speaker 3: seem to indicate... Benjamin Netanyahu may just lose it by
[3:18] Speaker 3: a percentage or two and his fierce opponent may be
[3:23] Speaker 3: the one that becomes the Prime Minister of Israel. But
[3:26] Speaker 3: as I told you yesterday, it actually doesn't matter who
[3:30] Speaker 3: becomes the next Prime Minister of Israel because most of
[3:35] Speaker 3: the candidates and the people that are contesting elections to
[3:39] Speaker 3: be Prime Minister are actually people that still hold the
[3:43] Speaker 3: same views, well, almost ideologically, of course, not the same.
[3:49] Speaker 3: But if you are more interested in what the new
[3:52] Speaker 3: prime minister and the new coalition is going to do
[3:55] Speaker 3: in as far as their policy and approach to the
[3:58] Speaker 3: Middle East is concerned, well, don't expect too many changes
[4:02] Speaker 3: because they seem to still agree on the fundamental things,
[4:05] Speaker 3: especially about what happens in the Middle East. But the
[4:10] Speaker 3: point I'm trying to make is voter turnout I mean,
[4:13] Speaker 3: records are being broken. In Israel yesterday, voters searched to
[4:18] Speaker 3: the polls in the elections. Many voters actually yesterday were
[4:22] Speaker 3: describing this election as the most consequential election in the
[4:25] Speaker 3: nation's history. And I wonder if our elections will also
[4:29] Speaker 3: go through the same way because it really feels like
[4:32] Speaker 3: the stakes are high just globally and maybe even in
[4:35] Speaker 3: America because they're preparing for the midterms. Who knows? Maybe
[4:39] Speaker 3: we're going to see records being broken when it comes
[4:41] Speaker 3: to voter turnout But there's a feeling that people are
[4:45] Speaker 3: realizing that the stakes are high. Do you think we're
[4:49] Speaker 3: realizing that in South Africa? Look at what happened in Serbia.
[4:53] Speaker 3: The president is out because students started a movement and
[4:56] Speaker 3: they managed to encourage and influence so many people to
[4:59] Speaker 3: come out and vote. And they voted and the president
[5:03] Speaker 3: is out, who never listened to them to begin with.
[5:07] Speaker 3: In Brazil, remember Lula da Silva? lost the first round
[5:12] Speaker 3: of elections, and then what happened in the second round?
[5:15] Speaker 3: Millions more of people came out to vote because they
[5:20] Speaker 3: realized that we do not want J. Bolsonaro's son, what's
[5:24] Speaker 3: his name again? Flavio Bolsonaro to be the one that
[5:26] Speaker 3: runs Brazil. What I'm saying is we're witnessing a shift globally.
[5:32] Speaker 3: There's a trend here where people are really coming out
[5:36] Speaker 3: in their numbers and breaking historic records. And even in
[5:40] Speaker 3: our country, there's been a steady decline in voter turnout
[5:43] Speaker 3: since 1994. And I really hope that we can also
[5:46] Speaker 3: follow these global trends and come out to break the
[5:49] Speaker 3: records next week, Wednesday. Now, there's a conversation I want
[5:54] Speaker 3: us to have on the open line this morning because
[5:57] Speaker 3: I'm interested in, maybe I'm reading it wrongly, and maybe
[6:00] Speaker 3: you can help me here. There is a prophet. What
[6:04] Speaker 3: do you call Benny Hinn? Do you call him a prophet,
[6:06] Speaker 3: a pastor? Evangelist? Okay, there's an evangelist that's in South
[6:10] Speaker 3: Africa right now. His name is Benny Hinn. And I've
[6:15] Speaker 3: picked up that there are people who are mocking his followers, right?
[6:22] Speaker 3: People who follow his evangelism, who follow him on television.
[6:27] Speaker 3: And there are people who are now like mocking the
[6:31] Speaker 3: people who follow him. Oh, look at this one. I mean,
[6:34] Speaker 3: some people are even calling it religious psychosis. And I'm
[6:39] Speaker 3: a little bit uncomfortable about that. And by the way,
[6:41] Speaker 3: I don't follow Benny Hinn, so I hold no brief
[6:44] Speaker 3: for him. But I'm more concerned about religious intolerance. Because
[6:51] Speaker 3: I'm picking up that people are even going to his
[6:54] Speaker 3: crusades to go and take videos of people so that
[6:57] Speaker 3: they can post on social media, oh, look who else
[6:59] Speaker 3: was also there.
[7:01] Speaker 4: Why?
[7:03] Speaker 3: These are the decisions that people who follow him have made.
[7:07] Speaker 3: They have made decisions the decision to follow his evangelism,
[7:10] Speaker 3: they believe him as a pastor, you may think he's
[7:13] Speaker 3: a fraud. You've got a right to think that with
[7:17] Speaker 3: the information you have. But do you have a right
[7:20] Speaker 3: to mock other people who follow this religion and they
[7:24] Speaker 3: follow him and they believe that even when he prays
[7:27] Speaker 3: for them, lays hands on them and they fall and
[7:29] Speaker 3: they shake and that's them receiving healing? And I think
[7:33] Speaker 3: the minute we cross that line, we're going deeper. Into
[7:37] Speaker 3: the hole. Because what stops the next person from telling you.
[7:41] Speaker 3: That you look ridiculous. Sitting in front of someone who
[7:44] Speaker 3: throws bones. And tells you what your future looks like.
[7:49] Speaker 3: I think we need to be careful. Of what path
[7:51] Speaker 3: we are opening. And honestly. I found it uncomfortable. That
[7:57] Speaker 3: videos are being shared. Of people falling. As this man
[8:00] Speaker 3: is praying over them. You may not believe that. You've
[8:03] Speaker 3: got every reason not to. But the whole concept. of
[8:08] Speaker 3: the freedom of choice, of the freedom of religion and
[8:14] Speaker 3: the expression of that religion and religious practices. I think
[8:19] Speaker 3: that's a fundamental right that we have to observe and
[8:22] Speaker 3: respect and guard. And even though I may not respect
[8:27] Speaker 3: Benny Hinn, even though I may not maybe agree with him,
[8:31] Speaker 3: even though I may think he's a fraud, if that's
[8:33] Speaker 3: what you think, there are people who follow him And
[8:37] Speaker 3: there are people who believe that he does perform miracles.
[8:40] Speaker 3: Or there are people who believe when he touches them,
[8:42] Speaker 3: they fall. I just worry that we're going to start
[8:45] Speaker 3: now being intolerant towards each other's beliefs and practices. And
[8:50] Speaker 3: it's not just Christian practices, but it may very well
[8:53] Speaker 3: be even if you follow African spirituality or any form
[8:56] Speaker 3: of spirituality for that matter. So let me know what
[8:58] Speaker 3: you think about that. And tell me if I'm reading
[9:01] Speaker 3: it right. Is there a cause for concern or not?
[9:05] Speaker 3: I'm interested in your thoughts. You can call on 011-883-0702,
[9:09] Speaker 3: WhatsApps on 072-702-1702. I just think spiritual manifestations are personal experiences,
[9:15] Speaker 3: which in many instances take place in public environments, such
[9:19] Speaker 3: as a church. And when we start pointing fingers and
[9:23] Speaker 3: judging those, especially when there's no harm per se, you know,
[9:26] Speaker 3: it's different when someone makes people eat snakes and drink,
[9:30] Speaker 3: you know. Okay, come on, Nubaira. Nubaba spray I got doom,
[9:33] Speaker 3: go pritore. In Pretoria, they spray you with doom. Remember that, Pastor?
[9:37] Speaker 3: You know, that I get because, I mean, there's harm
[9:40] Speaker 3: there even to your health. But in this case, this
[9:43] Speaker 3: is what people believe. And there are many other beliefs
[9:46] Speaker 3: that you may disagree with. Do you think that's a
[9:48] Speaker 3: reason for concern? If not, let me know if you
[9:51] Speaker 3: disagree with where I'm coming from. I'll take your calls
[9:55] Speaker 3: and your WhatsApps on that on 0727021702. But still on
[9:58] Speaker 3: this issue of Benny Hinn and religion as a sacred space,
[10:05] Speaker 3: I noticed that there are many congregants in places of
[10:08] Speaker 3: worship now that are using social media to document their
[10:12] Speaker 3: personal experiences. And I get it. I've got a sister
[10:15] Speaker 3: who's 20 who's crazy about TikTok and Instagram. Every time
[10:19] Speaker 3: you step into church, the first thing is Insta story, right?
[10:22] Speaker 2: I know it.
[10:23] Speaker 3: And sometimes I ask myself, okay, what's the point? But
[10:27] Speaker 3: I've stopped to be judgmental about it and understand, well,
[10:31] Speaker 3: you know, things have moved. We're in the fifth industrial revolution.
[10:35] Speaker 3: Like people are literally doing things differently with the digital,
[10:39] Speaker 3: you know, advancements. So especially young people. So I've come
[10:44] Speaker 3: to respect that. But I wonder what that does then
[10:48] Speaker 3: to the sacredness of the spaces where we worship. Do
[10:52] Speaker 3: you ever think about that? There's an example I've given
[10:56] Speaker 3: before on the show. I went to a church. Let
[10:59] Speaker 3: me not mention the name of the church and the
[11:01] Speaker 3: celebrity that I'm talking about. I went to a certain church,
[11:05] Speaker 3: and it's a church where, I guess, at the time,
[11:08] Speaker 3: this is probably 10 years ago, a lot of famous
[11:13] Speaker 3: people used to go to that church. Or at the
[11:15] Speaker 3: time they were. And I was sitting. So two rows
[11:19] Speaker 3: from me was a rapper. Well known rapper. Who came
[11:23] Speaker 3: to church. And it was an evening service I remember.
[11:26] Speaker 3: And he was praying. And praising God. And his arms raised.
[11:33] Speaker 3: And the guy I was sitting next to. Was taking
[11:36] Speaker 3: a video of him. Like literally shoving. his phone on
[11:47] Speaker 3: this man's face trying to take a video of him
[11:50] Speaker 3: worshiping and this guy was crying this rapper was crying
[11:54] Speaker 3: and in my mind i remember just thinking okay is
[11:57] Speaker 3: the video to show like a friend like oh look
[11:59] Speaker 3: at my church who goes or is it to maybe
[12:03] Speaker 3: show people and say oh this one was crying at
[12:05] Speaker 3: church the other day i don't know but how do
[12:07] Speaker 3: we how do we manage that and i understand as
[12:09] Speaker 3: a church you want the cameras to be on people's
[12:12] Speaker 3: faces even when they worship because You know, you want
[12:15] Speaker 3: to spread, I guess, the word of God. You want
[12:17] Speaker 3: to spread, I don't know, the miracles that are happening
[12:19] Speaker 3: in the church. I get that. It's about dispensing the
[12:22] Speaker 3: message further and wider beyond the four walls of your church.
[12:27] Speaker 3: But I just wonder, where do we draw the balance?
[12:30] Speaker 3: I mean, these days, sometimes you're busy praising. The minute
[12:32] Speaker 3: you open your eyes, there's someone next to you doing
[12:35] Speaker 3: an Instagram story. Some people haven't signed up for that
[12:39] Speaker 3: when they come to church. They want the sacredness, the confidentiality,
[12:43] Speaker 3: and just the The privacy of that space. And I
[12:46] Speaker 3: don't know if churches are still that. And maybe we
[12:50] Speaker 3: need to just wake up and realize things have advanced.
[12:53] Speaker 3: And if you're still stuck in the old way of
[12:56] Speaker 3: doing church, catch up quickly. Maybe that's your view. Let
[12:59] Speaker 3: me know. Let's talk on 011-883-0702. WhatsApp's on 072-702-1702. Clement Manatella.
[13:02] Speaker 3: Streaming on the Prime Media Plus app.
[13:19] Speaker 4: Look at this Benny Hinn thing, I think we need
[13:24] Speaker 4: to strike a balance. That freedom of expression, and that
[13:30] Speaker 4: may include even mocking, it should not be trifled with.
[13:36] Speaker 4: Exactly the same way as people, they got freedom of association,
[13:40] Speaker 4: freedom of religion that they want. Other people, they got
[13:44] Speaker 4: a freedom of opinions as well. So as long as
[13:48] Speaker 4: this thing is not bringing harm to the people, is
[13:51] Speaker 4: not threatening their belief, is not causing them not to
[13:55] Speaker 4: go to Benihina and do what they do over there.
[13:58] Speaker 5: Thank you.
[13:59] Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that's a fair point to raise.
[14:01] Speaker 3: And I take that point. Freedom also of expression and opinion, right?
[14:07] Speaker 3: So what if other people are looking at what's happening
[14:10] Speaker 3: at these places? crusades and they think oh something is
[14:13] Speaker 3: weird here look at that oh the people are falling
[14:16] Speaker 3: they're shaking i think that's a fair point you're raising
[14:18] Speaker 3: and i think that's a that's a right we must
[14:20] Speaker 3: also we must also respect but i just hope we
[14:23] Speaker 3: can also get to a point where we realize that
[14:27] Speaker 3: we don't always have to understand other people's spiritual journeys
[14:31] Speaker 3: because the thing about spirituality guys is that it's so
[14:35] Speaker 3: abstract right i mean the very basis of it is
[14:39] Speaker 3: that we're believing in something we don't even know for
[14:41] Speaker 3: sure right i don't care how much of a big
[14:44] Speaker 3: prophet you are you just don't know for sure you
[14:47] Speaker 3: don't know who runs a god you pray to you've
[14:50] Speaker 3: never met them maybe you've met them in your dreams
[14:53] Speaker 3: that's still very much abstract the ancestors you believe in
[14:57] Speaker 3: you remit them in their dreams do you sit down
[14:59] Speaker 3: with them like this you don't so nobody can say
[15:02] Speaker 3: for sure right about even what they believe in but
[15:06] Speaker 3: That's the whole concept of faith is you believe in
[15:08] Speaker 3: things that you may not even have like 100% evidence of.
[15:12] Speaker 3: I get that. But I just think we need to
[15:14] Speaker 3: understand as people that the minute you want the evidence
[15:18] Speaker 3: of like, oh, why is this person falling? Then there's
[15:21] Speaker 3: no way that you just lay your hands on someone
[15:23] Speaker 3: they fall. Yo, that's what people believe. Oh, you hear
[15:26] Speaker 3: people speak in tongues. Oh, that's weird. What is that?
[15:30] Speaker 3: That's what people believe. You see a traditional healer who's
[15:33] Speaker 3: jumping up and down and speaks in a different voice,
[15:36] Speaker 3: in a male voice, and they're female, and that's their
[15:40] Speaker 3: male ancestor that's coming out, and you think, oh, that's weird.
[15:42] Speaker 3: What is that? You are never going to understand every
[15:46] Speaker 3: single spiritual practice. And the minute you want to understand
[15:51] Speaker 3: every single spiritual practice, then that's going to lead us
[15:55] Speaker 3: to a problem because then you're going to start judging
[15:57] Speaker 3: every single minute of how that is being practiced. So
[16:01] Speaker 3: I accept the opinion you make. In fact, I think
[16:02] Speaker 3: it's fair. Let's also respect the opinions of people who
[16:06] Speaker 3: are observing what's happening in these crusades. But can we
[16:09] Speaker 3: also understand that this is a spiritual journey and people
[16:14] Speaker 3: are going to practice it and experience it differently?
[16:19] Speaker 6: Good morning, Chairman.
[16:20] Speaker 3: Pat here from Spareview.
[16:22] Speaker 6: Yeah, when coming to voting, the U.S., Midtown, Russia, and
[16:29] Speaker 6: here in South Africa, Things have shifted. People now vote
[16:35] Speaker 6: with cautiousness.
[16:37] Speaker 5: You know?
[16:40] Speaker 6: We have been lied to many times. And people have
[16:44] Speaker 6: been voting traditionally. We know what Trump says when he
[16:51] Speaker 6: promised people lots of things in the U.S. And that
[16:55] Speaker 6: never happened. Instead, he created a lot of enemies for U.S. So,
[17:02] Speaker 6: People are clever now, believe you me.
[17:05] Speaker 3: Okay, so people are voting more with their conscience. I
[17:11] Speaker 3: guess that's a good thing, no? Because what should you
[17:15] Speaker 3: vote based on? So maybe that's a good thing. I
[17:20] Speaker 3: celebrate that. Some of the WhatsApp messages coming through here.
[17:23] Speaker 3: Moses says, Clement, on the issue of respecting each other's
[17:26] Speaker 3: beliefs and practices, you're right. There is a level of
[17:29] Speaker 3: religious intolerance in South Africa. Old traditional churches are often
[17:33] Speaker 3: judged harshly by the new modern churches. It is a
[17:38] Speaker 3: valid thing. Secondly, most Christians judge African spirituality, calling it
[17:44] Speaker 3: demon worshipping, etc. The topic you have raised today is
[17:48] Speaker 3: the reality that we live in. That's a message from
[17:51] Speaker 3: Moses from North Riding. That's true. And I've been to
[17:54] Speaker 3: churches where a pastor mocks the more traditional, you know, Catholic,
[17:59] Speaker 3: Anglican churches because they think The New Age churches are
[18:02] Speaker 3: the thing that's legitimate to God or the Christian God.
[18:09] Speaker 3: But also I've heard people who follow African spirituality who
[18:13] Speaker 3: mock and judge even people who are Christians. I've seen
[18:17] Speaker 3: people who are Christians who judge even Muslims. And I
[18:22] Speaker 3: just think, yeah, it's just weird. It really is just
[18:26] Speaker 3: weird because Everybody then wants to, and there's nothing wrong with,
[18:30] Speaker 3: of course, wanting to claim your God and this is
[18:32] Speaker 3: our God and we are the legitimate, what do they say, heirs, whatever,
[18:36] Speaker 3: to the throne. Understand that there are people who follow
[18:40] Speaker 3: other religions and as much as you want to be respected,
[18:42] Speaker 3: you must respect them too. Whether you disagree or agree
[18:46] Speaker 3: with what they believe in. And that's just always how
[18:48] Speaker 3: I operate. I don't have to impose my religious beliefs
[18:52] Speaker 3: on anyone else. I follow mine. I want you to
[18:55] Speaker 3: respect that, and I must also be able to respect
[18:58] Speaker 3: yours without putting mine on some pedestal of sorts. And
[19:03] Speaker 3: then another person on the WhatsApp line says, Clement, this
[19:06] Speaker 3: one prophet is something else. Prophet is another man. There's
[19:13] Speaker 3: a charlatan. Jesus robbed mud of saliva to restore sight
[19:18] Speaker 3: to the blind. So eating snakes is the measure of faith.
[19:22] Speaker 3: And that's the argument you can make, you could make.
[19:25] Speaker 7: Right?
[19:26] Speaker 3: Because there are certain things that were done, even in
[19:28] Speaker 3: biblical times, when you read scripture, where you think, oh, really,
[19:33] Speaker 3: is that it? Like, they just told him to get
[19:35] Speaker 3: in the water and he got healed? They told him
[19:37] Speaker 3: to get in the Jordan River and everything was fine? Oh, Jesus, like, mud,
[19:42] Speaker 3: you know, and suddenly you see mud in your eyes
[19:46] Speaker 3: and suddenly you're fine. But I'm thinking... at what point
[19:50] Speaker 3: does it cause you harm and maybe we need to
[19:54] Speaker 3: take responsibility as well as the followers quote unquote of
[19:58] Speaker 3: these religions like if you're made to eat a snake
[20:02] Speaker 3: if you're made they spring doom on you or if
[20:05] Speaker 3: you're going to church and the pastor is praying for
[20:06] Speaker 3: you it's forcing you to fall Come on, what are
[20:10] Speaker 3: you thinking as an individual? Have you lost it? Have
[20:14] Speaker 3: you abdicated your thinking capacity to these religious evangelists? So
[20:21] Speaker 3: if a pastor, you can feel it when your pastor
[20:23] Speaker 3: is forcing you to fall, it's like pushing you so
[20:26] Speaker 3: that it comes across as if it's the Holy Spirit.
[20:29] Speaker 3: How do you respond to it? And I think we
[20:30] Speaker 3: enable sometimes this nonsense where you know that they're just
[20:35] Speaker 3: pushing you so that you fall, so that it comes
[20:37] Speaker 3: across as if it's the, It's the Holy Spirit or
[20:40] Speaker 3: the wind of God that just moved. And yes, maybe
[20:43] Speaker 3: in some instances it is. But if I asked you now,
[20:46] Speaker 3: because I've been in that situation where a pastor pushed
[20:49] Speaker 3: me and I was like, I was resisting because I
[20:53] Speaker 3: was like, why am I falling? And pushed me, made
[20:56] Speaker 3: sure I fall on the ground. I've never been gone
[20:59] Speaker 3: back to that church, by the way. When I went that,
[21:02] Speaker 3: if I ask you, how many people have been in
[21:04] Speaker 3: that situation? I beg you. I'm telling you, a lot
[21:06] Speaker 3: of people would raise their hands. How many of you
[21:09] Speaker 3: have gone to a church? They push you down because
[21:13] Speaker 3: the expectation is that when there's prayer, then the wind
[21:19] Speaker 3: of God or the Holy Spirit is going to sweep
[21:21] Speaker 3: out that place and you're going to fall. That's really
[21:25] Speaker 3: weird and wild, the things that are done in churches
[21:28] Speaker 3: these days. And I think many of us have experienced it,
[21:31] Speaker 3: so the responsibility also falls on us. When you know
[21:35] Speaker 3: that your pastor is doing that, why are you not
[21:39] Speaker 3: calling that out? When you know that your pastor even
[21:44] Speaker 3: lied in a prophecy, you know, a prophecy was not true,
[21:46] Speaker 3: but you enabled it because you didn't want to embarrass
[21:49] Speaker 3: him in public.
[21:50] Speaker 8: Why?
[21:50] Speaker 3: You're enabling something there that's going to be consequential down
[21:54] Speaker 3: the line. More of your calls and WhatsApps after the headlines.
[21:58] Speaker 3: It's 9.31. Your voice.
[21:59] Speaker 2: Your station. Your open line.
[22:03] Speaker 9: Walk the talk with Clement Manatella.
[22:06] Speaker 2: On 702.
[22:06] Speaker 3: 24 minutes before 10 o'clock. It's the 702 open line.
[22:10] Speaker 3: I'm taking your calls on 011-883-0702. Your WhatsApps as well
[22:17] Speaker 3: on 072-702-1702. Raz, let's start with you in Boxback. What
[22:22] Speaker 3: do you want to say about Benny Hinn? Good morning.
[22:25] Speaker 7: Morning, Clement. How are you?
[22:26] Speaker 3: I'm all right, man. Go ahead.
[22:28] Speaker 7: Good, thanks. I wanted to say I'm a Christian myself, right?
[22:33] Speaker 8: And.
[22:34] Speaker 7: And I understand we need to draw the line in
[22:37] Speaker 7: terms of mocking and doing all of that kind of stuff,
[22:41] Speaker 7: which is wrong. But also the Bible advises us to
[22:44] Speaker 7: judge a righteous judgment. You know, if we see, because
[22:48] Speaker 7: you mentioned that we should call out things because if
[22:52] Speaker 7: we don't call them out, we are enablers. Because this
[22:55] Speaker 7: is the same picture that was... preaching about things or
[22:59] Speaker 7: prophesying about things that didn't come true, you know. I
[23:02] Speaker 7: believe also in the 90s he prophesied about the world ending,
[23:06] Speaker 7: I think when we're going into the year 2000, and
[23:10] Speaker 7: it never came true. So as much as we as
[23:14] Speaker 7: Christians are not supposed to mock, We are not supposed
[23:18] Speaker 7: to sort of like, you know, call out the ones
[23:23] Speaker 7: that follow Benny Hinn and be sort of like aggressive
[23:27] Speaker 7: to them. But we must call out on what Benny
[23:30] Speaker 7: Hinn has did. You know, Benny Hinn has prophesied things
[23:33] Speaker 7: that didn't come true. And also, if you have a church...
[23:36] Speaker 7: as a pastor or as a prophet, you should do
[23:39] Speaker 7: things that are in line with the Bible because the
[23:41] Speaker 7: Bible is our manual. But now if you are doing
[23:44] Speaker 7: things that are outside of the Bible, we should call
[23:47] Speaker 7: them out. We shouldn't be enablers as well.
[23:50] Speaker 3: Absolutely. I agree with you, but here's where I differ
[23:54] Speaker 3: slightly because you're saying the manifestations must be in line
[23:57] Speaker 3: with what the Bible says, right? But on John 14
[24:00] Speaker 3: verse 12, and sorry for quoting scripture to you, John
[24:05] Speaker 3: 14 verse 12 says, Very truly I tell you, whoever
[24:09] Speaker 3: believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
[24:12] Speaker 3: and they will do even greater things than these, because
[24:17] Speaker 3: I'm going to the Father. You see, now if then
[24:19] Speaker 3: we are going to look at the manifestations in a
[24:22] Speaker 3: religious or spiritual setting and want them to be in
[24:26] Speaker 3: line with the Bible, then you're not always going to
[24:29] Speaker 3: find the reference point in the Bible. Because, I mean,
[24:31] Speaker 3: even John 14, 12 says, you are going to do
[24:34] Speaker 3: greater things. So Benny Hinn could argue that, yeah, I
[24:37] Speaker 3: know that what I did here is not in the Bible,
[24:39] Speaker 3: but God said I'm going to do greater things. So
[24:42] Speaker 3: this is part of the new greater things.
[24:45] Speaker 7: No, no, no, absolutely, because Jesus said we will do
[24:48] Speaker 7: greater things. I don't have an issue with that. The
[24:52] Speaker 7: issue that I have is when you prophesy and it
[24:55] Speaker 7: doesn't come to pass, because God says, I didn't call you.
[24:59] Speaker 7: He says it in the Bible. If you say something
[25:01] Speaker 7: and it doesn't come to pass, I'm not the one
[25:04] Speaker 7: who called you. Now, the question is, who called you?
[25:08] Speaker 3: Okay, Rez, thank you so much for your call and
[25:10] Speaker 3: box pick. Yeah, I don't want to get into the
[25:12] Speaker 3: issue of prophecy because I think that's a conversation for
[25:15] Speaker 3: another day. You know, I mean, there are many things
[25:18] Speaker 3: I've been told when I was a young person in
[25:20] Speaker 3: church in high school about the things that were going
[25:24] Speaker 3: to happen in my life. And that was done and
[25:26] Speaker 3: said in the name of prophecy. Did those things come
[25:29] Speaker 3: to pass? No, they didn't. Does that make that person
[25:33] Speaker 3: maybe a false prophet? Hey, I don't know. But also
[25:36] Speaker 3: in these churches these days, they tell you, a pastor
[25:38] Speaker 3: will get on stage, I prophesy, you want to be rich.
[25:41] Speaker 3: You want to do greater things in 10 years. And
[25:46] Speaker 3: they call that prophecy. And then if in 10 years
[25:49] Speaker 3: you are not rich, and then what does that mean?
[25:52] Speaker 3: But maybe to your point, then it means there's something
[25:54] Speaker 3: wrong with the person who gives that prophecy because they've
[25:56] Speaker 3: then misunderstood what it is. Is it... How do I
[26:02] Speaker 3: pronounce your name in Cape Town? Good morning.
[26:04] Speaker 7: Is it she?
[26:04] Speaker 10: It's she. Good morning.
[26:08] Speaker 3: Is it Tonga?
[26:09] Speaker 7: It's Tonga.
[26:10] Speaker 3: Oh, okay. Thank you so much for calling my brother.
[26:12] Speaker 3: Go ahead.
[26:14] Speaker 10: Yes, you're right, Clement. Because, I mean, some of us,
[26:17] Speaker 10: they pray for us at church when we are sick
[26:20] Speaker 10: and we don't get healed. Does that mean then that
[26:23] Speaker 10: the pastor, you know, there's something wrong with them? Should
[26:26] Speaker 10: I now mock my pastor or the followers? But my
[26:29] Speaker 10: point is, like, I'm a Christian myself, and I do
[26:32] Speaker 10: not agree or follow Benny Hinn at all. I believe
[26:37] Speaker 10: we should question him like the previous caller said. We
[26:39] Speaker 10: should question some of the prophecies that he said that
[26:42] Speaker 10: didn't come true. However, what makes me uncomfortable is seeing
[26:46] Speaker 10: other Christians mock his followers. Because in this case, people
[26:50] Speaker 10: are not questioning him, but they are taking videos of
[26:53] Speaker 10: his followers. and posting his followers on social media, like,
[26:57] Speaker 10: look at these people, they are crazy. And my concern is,
[27:00] Speaker 10: today it's been hidden, especially as a Christian, but tomorrow
[27:04] Speaker 10: it could be my pastor. And the other day, people
[27:07] Speaker 10: might start mocking me just for merely going to church,
[27:10] Speaker 10: because this is how it starts, and that's your point
[27:12] Speaker 10: about intolerance. Tomorrow people, because there are a lot of
[27:16] Speaker 10: people who don't go to church, who don't agree with
[27:20] Speaker 10: me worshiping a God who don't believe in my God.
[27:23] Speaker 10: And they could also mock me to say, look at
[27:26] Speaker 10: this person is going to church on Sunday, praying to
[27:29] Speaker 10: a God that doesn't exist. And I think this is
[27:32] Speaker 10: what we need to protect here. The right for people
[27:35] Speaker 10: to go and worship. Of course, if there's some criminality,
[27:38] Speaker 10: like you said, if people are feeding people grass, snake,
[27:42] Speaker 10: they should be prosecuted for that.
[27:45] Speaker 7: That's wrong.
[27:45] Speaker 10: That's harmful to people. But we shouldn't vilify people for
[27:49] Speaker 10: believing what they believe in. And I think that's the
[27:52] Speaker 10: problem that I have here with a lot of people.
[27:54] Speaker 10: And it's very sad because a lot of people that
[27:56] Speaker 10: are opposing are other Christians. And you might find that
[28:00] Speaker 10: I don't believe with their pastor or what their pastor
[28:02] Speaker 10: is saying. I might as well also mock them for
[28:06] Speaker 10: following their pastor because They believe that whatever they have
[28:10] Speaker 10: is the truth and whatever everyone else has, you know,
[28:13] Speaker 10: it's false, et cetera, et cetera. So, and I think, yeah,
[28:16] Speaker 10: so the point here is we need to tolerate, we
[28:18] Speaker 10: can question Benny Hinn, his doctrine, whatever, but the issue
[28:22] Speaker 10: here is that people are making fun of his followers,
[28:25] Speaker 10: not Benny Hinn.
[28:26] Speaker 3: That's it. That's it. And you're right. The next time
[28:31] Speaker 3: it's going to be, oh, you go to church and
[28:33] Speaker 3: then they mock you for just that. I was at
[28:35] Speaker 3: a dinner. a few months ago, and one of the
[28:38] Speaker 3: guys who were there, a lady, actually, not a guy,
[28:42] Speaker 3: a lady was, had gone to Uktwasa, you know, he's
[28:47] Speaker 3: trained to be a Sangoma. And we were just talking about,
[28:51] Speaker 3: you know, just having conversations about spirituality. And she didn't
[28:55] Speaker 3: mention that. And you can see that she was hiding
[28:58] Speaker 3: it from that table, right? Because that table was, you know,
[29:02] Speaker 3: full of religious people, like some of them hectic Christians.
[29:07] Speaker 3: and she didn't. And I remember afterwards, I was like,
[29:11] Speaker 3: why didn't you own it and just say it? That's
[29:14] Speaker 3: what you believe, and nobody must ever make you feel
[29:18] Speaker 3: like you are less than, or you must be so
[29:21] Speaker 3: shy to even talk about your own beliefs, whatever they are.
[29:26] Speaker 3: And I think we're getting to that point now where
[29:29] Speaker 3: people are going to be scared to even post their
[29:32] Speaker 3: pastor praying for them, for their cancer to go away,
[29:35] Speaker 3: you know god forbid because what you're going to start
[29:39] Speaker 3: you know questioning them why they go to that church
[29:43] Speaker 3: why they even believe in a pastor who claims you
[29:46] Speaker 3: know through prayer they can heal cancer i don't me
[29:51] Speaker 3: as clement i don't follow benny hin i don't at
[29:54] Speaker 3: all i'm not a follower of him i'm just more
[29:57] Speaker 3: concerned about where this is going to lead us. If
[30:00] Speaker 3: you're going to be calling things religious psychosis because someone
[30:05] Speaker 3: believes that, oh, if this pastor prays for me and
[30:07] Speaker 3: we're in a spiritual environment, I believe God will do
[30:10] Speaker 3: a miracle. If you start calling things like that, then
[30:15] Speaker 3: we're already on a dangerous path. And I don't think
[30:18] Speaker 3: down the line we're going to be respecting people's choices,
[30:22] Speaker 3: people's religions. And yes, I do agree that we must
[30:25] Speaker 3: still respect people's opinions about of what they see happening
[30:30] Speaker 3: in our churches. Let's go to Patu now, who's calling
[30:33] Speaker 3: us from Centurion. Patu, good morning.
[30:35] Speaker 11: Hi, it's Patu in Centurion. And I've just crossed the
[30:40] Speaker 11: floor from SAFM. It's my first time on 702.
[30:42] Speaker 3: Oh, welcome.
[30:43] Speaker 11: I'm very excited. Yeah, so for me, I think the
[30:48] Speaker 11: spiritual intolerance goes to people's lived experiences. People who mock
[30:55] Speaker 11: you have not had those lived experiences. Because that person
[30:58] Speaker 11: who's falling down, we do not understand the life they've lived,
[31:03] Speaker 11: the bondage, the trauma, the demons they're there to face
[31:07] Speaker 11: in their lives. And then when now somebody puts their
[31:10] Speaker 11: hand on them and they're praying and that power of
[31:13] Speaker 11: the Lord comes upon them and they're doing whatever they're doing,
[31:16] Speaker 11: people then would say it's stasis or it's psychosis or whatever,
[31:21] Speaker 11: or they're using mootie or whatever. That's that person's spiritual
[31:25] Speaker 11: lived experience. And we've got to be able to respect that,
[31:29] Speaker 11: because in the same sense, when you are practicing something else,
[31:34] Speaker 11: even if it's African spirituality, and the Sangoma does what
[31:38] Speaker 11: he does, and he says, this is what's going to happen,
[31:41] Speaker 11: you are healed, and so forth. nobody is there to
[31:45] Speaker 11: document it. I guess it goes to the argument that
[31:48] Speaker 11: most people go to Sangomas go in the dead of
[31:50] Speaker 11: the night and never post it.
[31:52] Speaker 3: Well, these days it's on social media, but you go
[31:54] Speaker 3: on TikTok, you see so many Sangomas are actually documenting
[31:58] Speaker 3: these things. So this sacredness is not even just something
[32:01] Speaker 3: that extends to like religious settings. But I think even
[32:04] Speaker 3: like there are Sangomas now who are on TikTok and
[32:06] Speaker 3: they even document how they go about like reading people
[32:10] Speaker 3: and helping people out.
[32:12] Speaker 11: Yeah, so if I'm falling there, like me personally, I
[32:16] Speaker 11: never used to understand the thing of speaking in tongues.
[32:18] Speaker 11: I also used to criticize it until my spiritual maturity
[32:22] Speaker 11: got to that level and I started praying. And I
[32:25] Speaker 11: was just praying in tongues and it would make sense.
[32:27] Speaker 11: And I would see the effects of that in my
[32:30] Speaker 11: life because of the belief that I'm connected to that
[32:33] Speaker 11: spiritual discussion with God. So we have to respect each other.
[32:37] Speaker 11: South Africa is a very diverse country. I think we
[32:40] Speaker 11: need to have tolerance there. not just in religion, but
[32:42] Speaker 11: in also political affiliations and so forth.
[32:46] Speaker 3: Absolutely. Patu, thank you so much in Centurion, our first
[32:50] Speaker 3: time caller. Let's go to some WhatsApps.
[32:53] Speaker 7: Good morning, Clem.
[32:56] Speaker 2: It's not about what things have advanced, Clement, you know.
[33:00] Speaker 7: There are two issues here.
[33:02] Speaker 12: People have this thing of wanting to be seen, which
[33:06] Speaker 12: they are doing things or they are good. or they're
[33:09] Speaker 12: exposed into good things or whatever the case is, or experiences.
[33:15] Speaker 12: And then two, it's just a lack of respect of
[33:20] Speaker 12: sacred spaces.
[33:22] Speaker 3: Any place that has.
[33:23] Speaker 12: To do with spirituality or religion, those places are sacred.
[33:30] Speaker 12: And it's very sad that I'm going to say this,
[33:33] Speaker 12: but this thing is mostly done by our people, black people.
[33:38] Speaker 12: Go to other people's communities and churches.
[33:44] Speaker 2: You don't see them doing those things. But it's us.
[33:48] Speaker 2: It's us, Clement.
[33:52] Speaker 3: Yeah, I slightly disagree there. I went to an Anglican
[33:56] Speaker 3: church about a week or so ago, and there was
[33:58] Speaker 3: a camera person. And unless you're talking about more as
[34:02] Speaker 3: individuals in church, but I think most of the churches
[34:04] Speaker 3: document what happens in the congregation. And I get that.
[34:09] Speaker 3: I just think it's naive of us to think if
[34:10] Speaker 3: you want to spread the word of God or the
[34:13] Speaker 3: work you're doing and you're going to limit it within
[34:16] Speaker 3: your four walls, not in this digital world we're in.
[34:22] Speaker 3: You want to penetrate television. You want to be on
[34:25] Speaker 3: social media. I get that. It's more for me, the
[34:28] Speaker 3: individual people in the church. When you are busy doing
[34:31] Speaker 3: an Insta story, are you respectful of Clement who's standing
[34:35] Speaker 3: next to you that they don't want to be on
[34:36] Speaker 3: your Instagram while they're praying? Are you respectful of that?
[34:44] Speaker 3: And when do you take the time to just be
[34:46] Speaker 3: in the moment? And I don't want to be judgmental
[34:49] Speaker 3: of people who do that, okay? But I'm interested. I
[34:52] Speaker 3: want to hear your thoughts as well. At what point
[34:55] Speaker 3: do you take the time to take in the moment
[34:59] Speaker 3: in church? Especially those who are just constantly there. Ten
[35:04] Speaker 3: Insta stories in one service. You're even showing people who
[35:08] Speaker 3: don't necessarily want to be there on your social media.
[35:13] Speaker 3: That's my worry. Hey, good morning, Clement.
[35:17] Speaker 13: This is from Luke Clement. Social media and the drive
[35:23] Speaker 13: to create content has actually detached, deactivated.
[35:32] Speaker 3: Our moral compass.
[35:34] Speaker 2: We need.
[35:35] Speaker 13: Something, I don't know, miracle of some sort that can
[35:40] Speaker 13: be able to assist us to actually, you know, calibrate
[35:44] Speaker 13: our moral compass and bring restore. Because people misuse their phones, really,
[35:52] Speaker 13: for content creating and all social media, you know, what we're.
[35:59] Speaker 3: Looking for in the social media.
[36:01] Speaker 13: It is heartening. It's so disheartening. People don't even have the,
[36:08] Speaker 13: you know, that room temperature. They don't feel their room temperature.
[36:13] Speaker 13: It's so disheartening.
[36:15] Speaker 3: Your voice. Your station.
[36:18] Speaker 2: Your open line.
[36:19] Speaker 3: Walk the talk with Clement Manietela on 702. Eight minutes
[36:23] Speaker 3: before 10 o'clock.
[36:24] Speaker 9: Good morning, Clement, and good morning to the listeners, and
[36:28] Speaker 9: happy Wednesday. You see this thing of Instagram stories and
[36:34] Speaker 9: phones in church. I think, for me, it's one of
[36:40] Speaker 9: the reasons why I took a backseat when it comes
[36:44] Speaker 9: to going to church, because I'm going to church to praise, worship,
[36:50] Speaker 9: and do all those things.
[36:52] Speaker 2: But the moment a hymn starts, how? I'm a phone pezzu.
[36:59] Speaker 9: Now there's no difference between being in a tavern, being
[37:04] Speaker 9: in a shebin, and being in church. Because whether you
[37:08] Speaker 9: like it or not, you're going to be on social media.
[37:12] Speaker 2: It's the reason why I took a backseat. If things
[37:16] Speaker 2: have changed, then.
[37:18] Speaker 2: I'll remain in the olden days.
[37:20] Speaker 9: A church, according to me, it's a place where you
[37:23] Speaker 9: need to, you go worship and yeah, you don't need
[37:27] Speaker 9: to be appearing in people's videos and all that.
[37:31] Speaker 3: Hi Clement.
[37:33] Speaker 14: It's something I think about pretty frequently in terms of,
[37:37] Speaker 14: you know, how we live in a very pluralistic society
[37:40] Speaker 14: and our constitution, one of the founding principles is there
[37:46] Speaker 14: is that there's tolerance. And yet all religions teach not
[37:50] Speaker 14: to be tolerant of another person's religion. And it's just
[37:55] Speaker 14: the most, the thing that sort of just is so
[37:57] Speaker 14: contradictory between religion and the law. And yet we live
[38:03] Speaker 14: in a pluralistic society and you're expected to be tolerant
[38:06] Speaker 14: of other people's religion. And I fear that with the
[38:09] Speaker 14: rise of things like Christian nationalism and.
[38:12] Speaker 2: Sort of all.
[38:15] Speaker 14: Religions going through some sort of nationalistic We are going
[38:20] Speaker 14: to find that the lack of tolerance is something that's
[38:24] Speaker 14: actually very much praised and supported. And it's taught in
[38:29] Speaker 14: churches and mosques around the world. I think it's a
[38:33] Speaker 14: pretty concerning thing. I think, you know, it's lighthearted right now.
[38:36] Speaker 14: based on the topic we're talking about. But this has
[38:40] Speaker 14: some really serious roots that need to be addressed.
[38:43] Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I thought it's worth us
[38:47] Speaker 3: having a conversation about it. Because I just saw it
[38:50] Speaker 3: started with jokes, like one person saying, oh, look at
[38:52] Speaker 3: former mayhem Popalate with Benny Hinn at the airport. Then
[38:56] Speaker 3: they start mocking her. And then it's, oh, they now
[38:59] Speaker 3: go to the crusades to just take the videos of
[39:02] Speaker 3: people that are falling and shaking while being prayed on.
[39:05] Speaker 3: And then it begins there. And I just think, down
[39:08] Speaker 3: the line, I think we will regret what we have started.
[39:12] Speaker 3: And I don't think we should go on, you've got
[39:15] Speaker 3: a right to have an opinion, sure. But also respect
[39:17] Speaker 3: that that's what people, the same way you've got your
[39:19] Speaker 3: own beliefs. Respect that people have also got their own beliefs.
[39:24] Speaker 9: Clem, again on this Benny Hinn business.
[39:30] Speaker 4: And I like the fact that you went and quoted
[39:32] Speaker 4: scripture to make your point. May I also do the
[39:35] Speaker 4: same by mentioning the scripture where Elijah is mocking the
[39:40] Speaker 4: prophets of, I think about 400 prophets of Baal or Baal,
[39:44] Speaker 4: depending how you want to pronounce it and all that.
[39:47] Speaker 4: So falsehood as a Christian needs to be exposed. And
[39:52] Speaker 4: the prophets have shown us, including Elijah, that to mock them.
[39:57] Speaker 10: Is not an evil thing.
[39:58] Speaker 4: It doesn't follow that because you're mocking, therefore it means violence.
[40:04] Speaker 11: Thanks, man.
[40:06] Speaker 3: I hear you. I hear that. But also, guys, because
[40:09] Speaker 3: it's been done by people in the Bible, does that
[40:13] Speaker 3: in our context then make it right? Because even tolerance then, like,
[40:18] Speaker 3: was there religious tolerance in biblical times? I don't think so.
[40:25] Speaker 3: In fact, recently when I went to Jordan, like a
[40:28] Speaker 3: month or so ago, I went to a spot where
[40:33] Speaker 3: Elijah the prophet, I don't want to say apparently, but
[40:38] Speaker 3: where he apparently ascended to heaven. You can go read
[40:41] Speaker 3: about it in the Bible. Like Elijah the prophet, they
[40:43] Speaker 3: believe in a carriage of fire and just ascended into heaven.
[40:50] Speaker 3: And I remember the group, because we were being led
[40:53] Speaker 3: by someone who was taking us through the religious side.
[40:56] Speaker 3: And there are people who were there who were like
[40:58] Speaker 3: giggling a bit about that.
[40:59] Speaker 5: Like, really?
[41:01] Speaker 3: He got on a horse and he just ascended to heaven? Like,
[41:04] Speaker 3: what did that look like? So you still have people who,
[41:08] Speaker 3: I mean, for me, that wasn't necessarily a mock, but
[41:10] Speaker 3: it was just someone who goes, I don't know if
[41:14] Speaker 3: that's really what could have happened. But again, that's when
[41:17] Speaker 3: you think, Maybe it's a carnal mind. That's your now thinking.
[41:22] Speaker 3: You're not now thinking spiritual. Because if you think spiritual,
[41:26] Speaker 3: any religion has got things that are not explainable, practically speaking.
[41:32] Speaker 3: Just scientifically, there's just no explanation for that. But isn't
[41:35] Speaker 3: that the very essence of spirituality and faith? If you
[41:39] Speaker 3: can explain it, if you can crack it scientifically, then
[41:43] Speaker 3: what's the point?
[41:44] Speaker 15: Right?
[41:46] Speaker 2: Clement, I remember you went to the Jordan River.
[41:51] Speaker 16: The time you posted when you were at the Jordan River,
[41:54] Speaker 16: I remember the song you sing at church, Sunday school,
[42:02] Speaker 16: that says, Was there a reason you went to the
[42:11] Speaker 16: Jordan River? Was it part of your belief as well? Because,
[42:15] Speaker 16: you know, I'll tell you something. People have very weird beliefs.
[42:20] Speaker 16: And it depends on what you believe in. My belief
[42:24] Speaker 16: can be weird to another person because I don't believe
[42:28] Speaker 16: in witchcraft. But those who believe in it think I'm delusional.
[42:33] Speaker 16: And it goes both ways. Whatever you might have believed in,
[42:41] Speaker 16: other people don't believe in.
[42:43] Speaker 3: Absolutely. So I went to the Jordan River and I
[42:47] Speaker 3: must tell you, I went to Jordan not to run
[42:49] Speaker 3: the Petra Marathon, right? I ran a marathon in Jordan.
[42:52] Speaker 3: It wasn't because, you know, I wanted to go to
[42:54] Speaker 3: the religious sites. But because I was in Jordan, I
[42:56] Speaker 3: did want to go visit the religious sites. And I
[43:00] Speaker 3: went to the Jordan River, not because I thought there
[43:01] Speaker 3: was going to be a miracle, but I was more fascinated.
[43:04] Speaker 3: You know, I went to the Jordan River. I went
[43:05] Speaker 3: to this site where Elijah got on a horse and
[43:09] Speaker 3: went to heaven. according to the Bible, I went to
[43:12] Speaker 3: where Jesus was first, apparently baptized the first baptism site
[43:16] Speaker 3: of Jesus. I went to all these reasons because I'm,
[43:18] Speaker 3: I'm really, I'm also a scholar of just history. Like
[43:21] Speaker 3: I'm interested in, in what has happened in the past.
[43:24] Speaker 3: And I juxtapose this with what we see today and
[43:27] Speaker 3: how it's being interpreted. So that was an interesting experience
[43:30] Speaker 3: for me, but I didn't get into the Jordan river
[43:32] Speaker 3: because I thought somehow I'm going to come out healed
[43:35] Speaker 3: or whatever. It was just more of an experiment. And,
[43:39] Speaker 3: I would advise you guys to check that out because it's,
[43:41] Speaker 3: it's really enlightening, you know, just that entire trip going
[43:45] Speaker 3: through the religious sites. Welcome to the second hour of
[43:48] Speaker 3: the Clement Manutela show. Thank you for staying with us
[43:51] Speaker 3: here on 702. And thank you for your contributions on
[43:54] Speaker 3: the 702 open line. In fact, I want to play
[43:56] Speaker 3: more of your WhatsApp voice notes that came through before
[43:58] Speaker 3: we move to our next conversation. There's just so much
[44:02] Speaker 3: that came through and, I want to make sure I
[44:05] Speaker 3: play as many of your voice notes as possible. On
[44:07] Speaker 3: YouTube as well, thank you for your comments there. Is
[44:10] Speaker 3: it Coras M on YouTube who says, Hi Clement, there
[44:14] Speaker 3: is freedom of religion, but a cult needs to be
[44:18] Speaker 3: exposed and shamed. Coras M commenting there on the YouTube page,
[44:23] Speaker 3: responding to the conversation we've been having this morning about
[44:27] Speaker 3: what happens in our churches and just the religious intolerance
[44:30] Speaker 3: that seems to be creeping up. So Coras says there
[44:33] Speaker 3: is freedom. but cult needs to be exposed. But who,
[44:37] Speaker 3: a cult according to who, right? You probably go to
[44:41] Speaker 3: your own church and you call your pastor daddy. Maybe
[44:45] Speaker 3: you call your pastor papa. And someone sees that as
[44:49] Speaker 3: you guys, that's a cult. Because that's the family you prioritize, right?
[44:54] Speaker 3: Isn't that what they even teach? Like your religious, spiritual family.
[44:59] Speaker 3: That's a spiritual brother. Growing up, when we're in high school,
[45:03] Speaker 3: when you go to church, they're like, that's a spiritual
[45:04] Speaker 3: brother who comes first. That's a spiritual mother, the pastor's wife.
[45:09] Speaker 3: That's your spiritual father. That's your pastor. And you're always
[45:12] Speaker 3: told you listen to these people first. So even when
[45:15] Speaker 3: you want to pay lavola, you want to marry, you
[45:18] Speaker 3: don't go to your parents first. You go to your spiritual.
[45:20] Speaker 3: I mean, it was wild. So the point I'm trying
[45:24] Speaker 3: to make is cult according to who? Someone can see
[45:26] Speaker 3: that as that's just a caring family. Someone else will
[45:29] Speaker 3: see it as a cult. Again, for me, it's that
[45:32] Speaker 3: intolerance and the consistency. Are you okay with us also
[45:36] Speaker 3: judging your own interactions with your own pastor and make
[45:40] Speaker 3: up our minds about what that means? You should be
[45:43] Speaker 3: okay with that if you want to be allowed to
[45:46] Speaker 3: also judge the others and interpret their interactions with their
[45:50] Speaker 3: religious leaders. I've got more of your WhatsApp voice notes
[45:53] Speaker 3: that have come through and some texts. Let me start
[45:55] Speaker 3: with some of the texts that have come through. Taboho says, Clement, please...
[46:01] Speaker 3: I'd like to disagree with the lady who says churches
[46:04] Speaker 3: teaches us to be intolerant with each other. Our bishop
[46:11] Speaker 3: in his sermons, he never reminds us to respect other
[46:17] Speaker 3: churches and tolerate them too. I think what you meant
[46:19] Speaker 3: there is he always reminds us to respect, not never.
[46:23] Speaker 3: The message goes on to say it's just a personal
[46:26] Speaker 3: choice that people choose to be that way. No one
[46:30] Speaker 3: is taught to be intolerant. You just choose to be.
[46:33] Speaker 3: We know what's wrong and what's right. We choose to
[46:37] Speaker 3: be vile anyway. Churches have nothing to do with our
[46:40] Speaker 3: vile behavior. Thanks. That's a message there from Anonymous. So
[46:44] Speaker 3: I disagree slightly with you, Anonymous. I do think that
[46:48] Speaker 3: in some way, and maybe not entirely, but religions do
[46:52] Speaker 3: teach you that. I've gone to churches that criticize like Islam.
[46:58] Speaker 3: Like a pastor gets on stage. In fact, even when
[47:01] Speaker 3: they don't criticize other denominations or churches, they get there
[47:05] Speaker 3: and they say, if you don't follow the God we
[47:08] Speaker 3: pray and worship, then what you're doing is evil and
[47:13] Speaker 3: it's not part of. That's what happens. And I think,
[47:19] Speaker 3: there's another verse. I remember it from a song. Doesn't
[47:24] Speaker 3: it say, What does it say? Something along the lines of,
[47:30] Speaker 3: whoever goes to God goes through Christ. Whoever goes to
[47:38] Speaker 3: God goes through Christ. I think it's a verse that says,
[47:41] Speaker 3: no one can get to God except through Christ. Is
[47:43] Speaker 3: it John 14 verse 1, guys? I don't remember. It's
[47:49] Speaker 3: John 14 verse 6. Jesus says, I am the way,
[47:53] Speaker 3: the truth, and the life. No one comes to the
[47:56] Speaker 3: Father except through me. Now you tell me that. When
[47:59] Speaker 3: someone who is Muslim says, I believe in Prophet Muhammad.
[48:04] Speaker 3: I don't believe Jesus is the way to God. Then what?
[48:08] Speaker 3: And then you want to debate them. And I think
[48:11] Speaker 3: that's what the listener was trying to say. That even
[48:14] Speaker 3: some scripture tells you, the Christian God, Jesus is the
[48:19] Speaker 3: person through which you get to God and nothing else.
[48:22] Speaker 3: What does that say then about someone who practices a
[48:25] Speaker 3: completely different religion, someone who believes differently? And I think
[48:30] Speaker 3: maybe that's where then the unhappiness comes in, where then
[48:34] Speaker 3: church members take those Bible verses and they start being
[48:37] Speaker 3: intolerant towards others because that is something they respect, right?
[48:43] Speaker 3: For them, it's the Holy Scripture. It's the Word of
[48:46] Speaker 3: God directly from Jesus' mouth. And maybe that's the foundation
[48:50] Speaker 3: of the intolerance. I think that's what the listener was
[48:52] Speaker 3: trying to say. Here are some of the WhatsApp voice
[48:54] Speaker 3: notes that have come through. Morning, Clement.
[48:57] Speaker 17: Look, let me expand the conversation, though I came late. Look,
[49:02] Speaker 17: I think I would like to also invite everyone to
[49:06] Speaker 17: allow us, as African people who practice African traditions, When
[49:14] Speaker 17: we go to the beach, eluange, sea, ocean, whatever you
[49:18] Speaker 17: call it, and we perform some rituals there, slaughter goats,
[49:24] Speaker 17: slaughter some chicken there while we're performing our own beliefs
[49:29] Speaker 17: and cultural systems. So I think we can expand the
[49:33] Speaker 17: debate into that we must also be provided privacy then
[49:37] Speaker 17: to be told that we are performing some inhuman cruelty.
[49:40] Speaker 5: Hi Clement, hi 702 listeners. This topic is very touching
[49:46] Speaker 5: for me and very important because honestly, we live in
[49:50] Speaker 5: a society where now everything needs to be shown on
[49:52] Speaker 5: camera to a point where watch how on camera all
[49:57] Speaker 5: they want to show is this is the person I am.
[50:00] Speaker 5: I'm a good person. I do all of this thing.
[50:02] Speaker 5: But the moment that camera goes off, they're a different person.
[50:06] Speaker 5: all together it's creating a society of I don't know
[50:12] Speaker 5: if I say fake people that are going to put
[50:15] Speaker 5: up fake images of themselves now just so that I
[50:19] Speaker 5: don't know I don't know but yeah we live in
[50:22] Speaker 5: a world that if it's not on social media it didn't.
[50:25] Speaker 3: Happen yeah you're right and it's like what I'm trying
[50:30] Speaker 3: for me how I rationalize it is that's really the
[50:36] Speaker 3: The world we live in now, right? And it's either
[50:40] Speaker 3: you're going to embrace... It's like AI. You cannot wish
[50:44] Speaker 3: it away, guys. You can't. This is going to be
[50:48] Speaker 3: our lives in the near... Right now as we live
[50:53] Speaker 3: in it and for the near future. And probably beyond near.
[50:59] Speaker 3: So you have a choice then. Either you're going to reject...
[51:04] Speaker 3: these technological advancements, which honestly do scare me at some point.
[51:10] Speaker 3: I mean, sometimes just sit and have a conversation with AI.
[51:14] Speaker 3: You know, maybe when you're struggling to sleep, just talk
[51:16] Speaker 3: to AI and ask it about even like the value
[51:19] Speaker 3: of humanity. Like, you know, I was having a conversation
[51:22] Speaker 3: with this. I was emceeing something last week at the
[51:26] Speaker 3: Four Seasons and I was sitting next to this woman
[51:28] Speaker 3: who was one of the speakers at this and we
[51:30] Speaker 3: were having a conversation about AI and And she said
[51:33] Speaker 3: something so important. Oh, my goodness. And she said, what
[51:38] Speaker 3: about our own value as humanity? Like, do you think
[51:42] Speaker 3: AI will see our value in, I don't know, 50,
[51:45] Speaker 3: 100 years? So if they are able, and by they
[51:48] Speaker 3: I mean AI, if AI is able to do our
[51:52] Speaker 3: tasks as humans and we're seeing them do more and
[51:56] Speaker 3: more tasks, I mean, who knows, maybe in 50 years
[51:58] Speaker 3: there'll be an AI-generated persona behind this mic. Right. And
[52:05] Speaker 3: you don't need a human being to do like a
[52:07] Speaker 3: talk show between nine and 12. Who knows? But there
[52:10] Speaker 3: are many, many tasks that are constantly being sort of
[52:15] Speaker 3: done by these, you know, AI, whether it's machines or,
[52:22] Speaker 3: you know, AI processes and structures. The question then is
[52:26] Speaker 3: we've always derived our value or part of our value
[52:30] Speaker 3: as humans from From labor, right? We wake up, we
[52:34] Speaker 3: go to work, or maybe you don't go to work.
[52:36] Speaker 3: You plow your fields, you know, your crops. What else
[52:40] Speaker 3: do people do? There are many things people do, but
[52:43] Speaker 3: it's like, it's almost like we're investing into something for
[52:46] Speaker 3: something to come up. So labor, in whatever form it
[52:49] Speaker 3: takes in your life, is quite a crucial thing. That's
[52:53] Speaker 3: something we, part of the things we derive value from.
[52:55] Speaker 3: So if AI is able to do all of that,
[52:59] Speaker 3: Do you think they're going to see the need for
[53:02] Speaker 3: us here? Because then what do we do? We wake up,
[53:04] Speaker 3: we eat, and then what? I get it, they're doing
[53:06] Speaker 3: most of the jobs. And then we're just polluting the
[53:09] Speaker 3: earth and we're just overpopulating the earth. At what point
[53:14] Speaker 3: then do they go, okay, how do we deal with
[53:16] Speaker 3: these people who've become quote-unquote useless? And I've never thought
[53:20] Speaker 3: of it like that. And I think the lady was
[53:22] Speaker 3: quite on point there. And the point there is you
[53:26] Speaker 3: either have to learn to understand that this is a
[53:28] Speaker 3: world we live in. So even with churches, phones are
[53:31] Speaker 3: going to be there. We're no longer in the olden
[53:34] Speaker 3: golden days of churches just being sacred spaces where you talk.
[53:39] Speaker 3: It's you and your God. You can kneel and there's
[53:41] Speaker 3: no screen or camera behind you. I've accepted that. I've
[53:45] Speaker 3: accepted that that's where we are. But I think while
[53:48] Speaker 3: we accept that, we must also try to balance it
[53:52] Speaker 3: with faith. important, precious, sacred elements that are still necessary
[53:59] Speaker 3: for our own beliefs and the practices of our own
[54:03] Speaker 3: religions and beliefs. It's 18 minutes now after 10 o'clock.
[54:07] Speaker 3: I'll tell you what, I'm going to continue with your
[54:10] Speaker 3: calls and your WhatsApps because I'm seeing there's a lot
[54:12] Speaker 3: of interest that's been generated by this topic. So I'm
[54:15] Speaker 3: going to give you an extra couple of minutes, bonus
[54:18] Speaker 3: 7.0.2 open line, if you will, And then we'll play
[54:21] Speaker 3: you that interview that we did with Minister Dean McPherson
[54:24] Speaker 3: just after the news at 10.30. Is that all right? Perfect.
[54:28] Speaker 3: Let's go to your WhatsApps. 072-702-1702.
[54:33] Speaker 9: Good morning, Clement.
[54:35] Speaker 1: On congregants using their phones or cameras on other fellow worshippers,
[54:45] Speaker 1: I'm wondering if... Those whose photos are being taken are
[54:51] Speaker 1: not protected by POPE Act, Protection of Personal Information Act.
[54:58] Speaker 1: I'm just wondering.
[55:01] Speaker 3: Thanks. Hi Clement, Lisele here in Pretoria.
[55:05] Speaker 18: My brother, it's not about spirituality for which you will
[55:09] Speaker 18: be crucified. People who don't like you will crucify you
[55:14] Speaker 18: for everything that is associated with your life. So if
[55:20] Speaker 18: you are going to be worried about what people say
[55:24] Speaker 18: about you, you're going to have a very big problem.
[55:28] Speaker 18: I believe that I will stand by what I believe in,
[55:32] Speaker 18: even if I stand alone. I don't need people to
[55:37] Speaker 18: come and, you know, vindicate or validate me. No, I
[55:44] Speaker 18: don't have time for people. Whatever that I'm doing, I'm
[55:47] Speaker 18: doing it for myself. Whatever you say, your problem, not mine.
[55:50] Speaker 18: So I'm not going to get worried about anything. Leselle
[55:53] Speaker 18: in Pretoria.
[55:54] Speaker 3: Thank you. Good morning, Clement.
[55:57] Speaker 15: Good morning, Clement and the listeners. Look, privacy, when it
[56:01] Speaker 15: comes to cell phones, it's really a big problem.
[56:06] Speaker 3: Now that you're.
[56:06] Speaker 15: Raising it, I'm thinking people, if they're genuine, they could
[56:10] Speaker 15: use the feature which has got a a blurry view
[56:13] Speaker 15: if they're taking their selfies in the cell phone so
[56:15] Speaker 15: that other people that are picked up on the picture
[56:19] Speaker 15: are not clear. But on the hindsight, those pastors, prophets, preachers,
[56:25] Speaker 15: or whatever they proclaim to be, are happy for the
[56:28] Speaker 15: publicity stand that they are getting through the cell phone videos.
[56:33] Speaker 9: You know?
[56:33] Speaker 2: And that's how it's been marketed for Adrian Pagliucci.
[56:38] Speaker 19: Hi, Clement. Thank you so much for always bringing up.
[56:44] Speaker 3: Topics.
[56:45] Speaker 19: You know, I was thinking about that because I see
[56:48] Speaker 19: people recording prayers, people recording you know, like Proceedings that
[56:56] Speaker 19: are not supposed to be recorded. Jesus said in Matthew
[56:59] Speaker 19: 6 that relationship with God, it's something sacred. It's something personal.
[57:05] Speaker 19: It's just between you and God. And when you get
[57:09] Speaker 19: to approach God, you want to make sure that it's
[57:12] Speaker 19: between you and him. So now if I'm going to
[57:14] Speaker 19: record it, you in a way even take away the
[57:19] Speaker 19: attention from God, but now the attention gets to be
[57:23] Speaker 19: about you. And I personally don't think that's okay. And,
[57:29] Speaker 19: you know, with social media at times, we seem to
[57:33] Speaker 19: deviate from the principles, you know. Yes, things change. We
[57:37] Speaker 19: are moving ahead with technology, but the principles still remain.
[57:43] Speaker 19: Keep God's word sacred Your relationship with God is sacred
[57:47] Speaker 19: It's between you and God And that should be it.
[57:50] Speaker 3: Thank you And then you've got some people Who want
[57:55] Speaker 3: to use their own How shall I put it They
[58:00] Speaker 3: want to use Their own miracle To convince you Of
[58:06] Speaker 3: something else And Yeah I just feel like I mean,
[58:12] Speaker 3: if you, during your dream, you saw God and he
[58:17] Speaker 3: took you, or she or they took you to heaven
[58:20] Speaker 3: and to see where heaven is and where hell is
[58:24] Speaker 3: or whatever the case is, and you come back and
[58:27] Speaker 3: you wake up and now you sit your family down,
[58:30] Speaker 3: you're forcing everybody. This is what I experience and therefore,
[58:34] Speaker 3: I've always found that a bit weird because that's your
[58:38] Speaker 3: own spiritual life. That's what you've uncovered as an individual.
[58:44] Speaker 3: That's like your spiritual miracle, so to speak, for lack
[58:47] Speaker 3: of a better phrase. It doesn't do much to me.
[58:51] Speaker 3: I mean, I've not even witnessed it. So it doesn't
[58:55] Speaker 3: do much. It's your own. But sometimes people go, no,
[58:59] Speaker 3: I can attest to you. Come through. Follow this religion
[59:03] Speaker 3: because I've seen it one, two, three. Yeah, but that's
[59:06] Speaker 3: what you've seen. In fact, what you should... do is
[59:10] Speaker 3: to maybe pray then for me in your personal space
[59:13] Speaker 3: that i also have an encounter with whatever you have
[59:18] Speaker 3: had an encounter with i think there's nothing that could
[59:21] Speaker 3: be more convincing than that no but you think that
[59:24] Speaker 3: because you have had these amazing spiritual journeys and You
[59:29] Speaker 3: think that story alone is enough to get someone to
[59:32] Speaker 3: just believe. I think that's weird. And I think that's
[59:34] Speaker 3: why a lot of us have been going to churches
[59:37] Speaker 3: because one at home, they were going to churches too,
[59:43] Speaker 3: because there was no choice at home. Sunday was church.
[59:47] Speaker 3: Like they didn't, it doesn't matter to my parents or
[59:50] Speaker 3: my mom, whether you even understood who God is or
[59:54] Speaker 3: you are going to church. And I think we need to, perhaps,
[59:58] Speaker 3: and this is maybe a conversation we should have on
[1:00:00] Speaker 3: the open line. Maybe we need to change how we
[1:00:03] Speaker 3: even introduce our children to religion. Like I want my
[1:00:08] Speaker 3: children to actually go to church because they know the God.
[1:00:12] Speaker 3: Like you see now, I consider myself Christian in my
[1:00:16] Speaker 3: own way. And that's because I also believe in God
[1:00:19] Speaker 3: in my way. So I no longer believe in the
[1:00:21] Speaker 3: God of my pastor, right? I don't know. I no
[1:00:24] Speaker 3: longer take, Because I used to go to a church
[1:00:26] Speaker 3: that said, you don't question God. How dare you? No,
[1:00:29] Speaker 3: I do question God. If there are things I don't
[1:00:31] Speaker 3: understand in scripture, I question. And I ask. And I
[1:00:34] Speaker 3: read more. And I research. So I'm no longer a
[1:00:37] Speaker 3: passive Christian that just takes whatever a pastor throws or
[1:00:41] Speaker 3: whatever is in the scripture that you find contradictory or
[1:00:44] Speaker 3: you find a bit concerning and you don't ask it,
[1:00:47] Speaker 3: question it, and have conversations about it. And I think
[1:00:51] Speaker 3: even with our children, that's why it's important. What's the
[1:00:54] Speaker 3: point of just pushing them into the flock? Sure, they
[1:00:57] Speaker 3: are at church, but do they believe? Do they even
[1:00:59] Speaker 3: know who God is? Have you given them the opportunity
[1:01:02] Speaker 3: to explore this God for themselves? Because I believe it's
[1:01:07] Speaker 3: not about quality, it's about quantity. Sure, they're filling up
[1:01:10] Speaker 3: the church. You are seen as the mom who's raising
[1:01:13] Speaker 3: children who go to church every day. What do they
[1:01:16] Speaker 3: know about the God they pray to? They don't even
[1:01:18] Speaker 3: know the God. They don't even believe. But you are
[1:01:21] Speaker 3: more excited about the fact that They dressed up and
[1:01:23] Speaker 3: came to church. I think those kind of things need
[1:01:27] Speaker 3: to change. Because then we are more obsessed about how
[1:01:31] Speaker 3: we are seen than the very essence of what church
[1:01:37] Speaker 3: should be about. It should be fellowship. But where this
[1:01:41] Speaker 3: fellowship comes from, it comes from the relationship that also
[1:01:45] Speaker 3: exists between you and your God. More of your WhatsApps.
[1:01:54] Speaker 8: Yeah, my brother, I just want to have my voice
[1:01:59] Speaker 8: on this one. Truly, there is a very serious cause
[1:02:04] Speaker 8: of concern.
[1:02:06] Speaker 3: You are very much correct. And me as a Christian,
[1:02:11] Speaker 3: I believe in Christianity.
[1:02:13] Speaker 8: But I also want to give space for other understanding
[1:02:18] Speaker 8: of other people's religious beliefs and so on.
[1:02:22] Speaker 3: But it's a very.
[1:02:23] Speaker 8: Serious cause of concern because remember when people hate each other,
[1:02:28] Speaker 8: there is a potential of wishing each other away or
[1:02:34] Speaker 8: to kill each other as we see in other countries
[1:02:37] Speaker 8: where other people from another religion are killing each other.
[1:02:42] Speaker 8: If the news that we are hearing is anything to
[1:02:46] Speaker 8: go by, what is happening in Nigeria and many other
[1:02:49] Speaker 8: parts of the world. So it's a very serious cause
[1:02:53] Speaker 8: of concern that people should be tolerant on other people's
[1:02:58] Speaker 8: beliefs as much as they would love to be tolerated.
[1:03:02] Speaker 8: And they believe that what they are going.
[1:03:04] Speaker 7: Through is correct.
[1:03:06] Speaker 8: This is Mr. Tenga in Pretoria. Thank you very much.
[1:03:11] Speaker 20: Hi, Clement and the team. There is nothing wrong to
[1:03:13] Speaker 20: criticize the pastor's behavior. The only problem is when the
[1:03:18] Speaker 20: pastor's behavior is used to attack the church, since the
[1:03:23] Speaker 20: word church means togetherness.
[1:03:25] Speaker 2: So that's my point.
[1:03:27] Speaker 3: David in Parkwood. Thank you, David. Some of your WhatsApp
[1:03:37] Speaker 3: messages that are coming through here, let me wrap up
[1:03:39] Speaker 3: with some. It's sad to see how much also the
[1:03:46] Speaker 3: Christian religion and faith have become so fragmented and disjointed
[1:03:51] Speaker 3: in and by itself. Most of these videos are posted
[1:03:55] Speaker 3: by people who call themselves Christians. And the question is,
[1:04:00] Speaker 3: if these so-called Christians are intolerant of their own fellow Christians,
[1:04:05] Speaker 3: what more towards people of different faiths exactly? It makes
[1:04:09] Speaker 3: you believe that there is indeed no hate like Christian love.
[1:04:13] Speaker 3: That's the boho who's sending us a message from Senton.
[1:04:16] Speaker 3: Another person says, Clement, good day. I need to put
[1:04:20] Speaker 3: my one cent regarding the charismatic churches. I go to
[1:04:24] Speaker 3: one of the largest churches in Akurulene. And mind you,
[1:04:27] Speaker 3: my biggest irritation are the pictures and videos taken during
[1:04:30] Speaker 3: the service by the media. You are in that mode,
[1:04:33] Speaker 3: in true worship, you and God. And then you open
[1:04:36] Speaker 3: your eyes and there's a camera or video. Things have
[1:04:39] Speaker 3: really taken a turn these days and it is not pleasant.
[1:04:42] Speaker 3: All this so that churches can draw thousands to it
[1:04:45] Speaker 3: and not the Lord. And then another person says, Clement,
[1:04:50] Speaker 3: I go to a quote unquote modern church in Senton
[1:04:54] Speaker 3: and many celebrities, media and sports personalities and also politicians
[1:04:59] Speaker 3: attend that church there. And the way we mind our
[1:05:01] Speaker 3: business and focus on God, you would swear there are
[1:05:05] Speaker 3: no popular people among us. People need to focus on God.
[1:05:09] Speaker 3: When they go to church, you can get photos and
[1:05:12] Speaker 3: all that after church, but not during the service. Yeah.
[1:05:16] Speaker 3: And I think sometimes it's also like, it's also, I
[1:05:19] Speaker 3: think also the responsibility of the church leaders as well.
[1:05:23] Speaker 3: You know, I've been to one church, which I will
[1:05:25] Speaker 3: not name where they seriously believe in VIP treatment. Like
[1:05:30] Speaker 3: there are certain, like there was certain celebrities or, very
[1:05:36] Speaker 3: famous people who used to go to that church and
[1:05:38] Speaker 3: you know where they sit, they don't sit with us
[1:05:41] Speaker 3: in the congregate. They sit in the front and luckily
[1:05:46] Speaker 3: or unfortunately for the church, but luckily for us is
[1:05:49] Speaker 3: we used to see, so you know when you, you
[1:05:51] Speaker 3: know church starts with like, especially charismatic church starts with
[1:05:54] Speaker 3: worship and then it's giving time and then it's the,
[1:05:58] Speaker 3: it's the pastor sermon. While we're busy worshiping and we're
[1:06:02] Speaker 3: giving in church, The VIP is with the pastor backstage
[1:06:07] Speaker 3: in the pastor's VIP room. They're having coffee. And then
[1:06:14] Speaker 3: they're only going to come in. When the pastor comes
[1:06:16] Speaker 3: in and ready to preach, the VIP cabal comes with
[1:06:19] Speaker 3: the pastor and they sit there in front. It used
[1:06:21] Speaker 3: to make me so uncomfortable. I was like, on what basis?
[1:06:25] Speaker 3: And you know what? The people, they used to take
[1:06:27] Speaker 3: pictures with the pastor in the pastor's office having coffee.
[1:06:31] Speaker 3: while the church is praising and worshipping on the other side.
[1:06:35] Speaker 3: And then they would post them on social media. That's
[1:06:37] Speaker 3: how we got to know that, oh, interesting. There's actually
[1:06:41] Speaker 3: a VIP room where people that are seen as important
[1:06:44] Speaker 3: go chill with the pastor before the pastor preaches. And
[1:06:47] Speaker 3: then when the pastor is ready to preach, they come
[1:06:48] Speaker 3: and sit there in the front. And I think there
[1:06:51] Speaker 3: are some churches who still obsess about the idea of
[1:06:54] Speaker 3: celebrities who come to their church. Maybe they think, oh,
[1:06:58] Speaker 3: if the people see that, you know, Amor Amela was there,
[1:07:01] Speaker 3: then Thousands of people are going to come to the church.
[1:07:05] Speaker 3: So again, there's a responsibility we need to take as
[1:07:09] Speaker 3: people who observe what's happening in other religions. There's a
[1:07:12] Speaker 3: responsibility that religious leaders themselves need to take, but also
[1:07:16] Speaker 3: the people who are recipients and at the receiving end of,
[1:07:21] Speaker 3: you know, someone who's pushing them and falling, even when
[1:07:24] Speaker 3: nothing is pushing them to fall, but they have to
[1:07:25] Speaker 3: pretend because the cameras are on. That's your responsibility as well.
[1:07:30] Speaker 3: I think you're enabling something That's just as wrong So
[1:07:34] Speaker 3: all of us Have to ask ourselves serious questions And
[1:07:37] Speaker 3: take accountability It's just after 10.30

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