# How Your Space Shapes Your Life: Designing Homes, Habits, & Connection | Leidy Klotz (EP449)

An episode of [Minimalist Moms Podcast | Purposeful Life & Parenting Tips](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1159498258), 28 Apr 2026, 32 min.

Audio: https://prefix.up.audio/s/pdst.fm/e/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/mgln.ai/e/35/audio2.redcircle.com/episodes/a4fd6eb5-2bc2-4907-8dec-26f0c73d1ff8/stream.mp3

What if creating a more intentional life starts with rethinking the spaces around you? Today I’m joined by behavioral scientist and author, Leidy Klotz to explore a powerful (and often overlooked) idea: our surroundings don’t just reflect who we are - they actively shape who we become. While so much advice focuses on mindset, habits, and routines, Leidy invites us to zoom out and consider where those things are happening. From the layout of your kitchen to the design of your neighborhood, physical spaces influence your ability to connect, focus, learn, and thrive. In this conversation, we unpack how to work with your environment - not against it - and how even small, intentional changes can have a profound impact on your daily life. Links Discussed in This Episode | • Checkout the podcast storefront for recommendations from Diane. • Subscribe to the Minimalist Moms Youtube Channel • Diane's Resource: EP207: Swedish Death Cleaning: Morbid or Mandatory? with Emily McDermott • Previous Episode: Simplify Your Life Using Subtraction • Connect with Leidy: • Website • Book: In a Good Place: How the Spaces Where We Live, Work, and Play Can Help Us Thrive About Leidy | Leidy Klotz is a behavioral scientist and engineering professor at the University of Virginia who studies how and why humans design. He has written for the Washington Post, Fast Company, Scientific American, and Harvard Business Review; has published his work in top journals like Nature and Science; and has been interviewed on Hidden Brain, Freakonomics, Mindscape, and The Atlantic’s How to Build a Happy Life. Klotz has advised clients ranging from the Departments of Energy and Homeland Security to CapitalOne and Amazon. Episode Sponsors | The Minimalist Moms Podcast would not be possible without the support of weekly sponsors. Choosing brands that I believe in is important to me. I only want to recommend brands that I believe may help you in your daily life. As always, never feel pressured into buying anything. Remember: if you don't need it, it's not a good deal! Enjoy the Podcast? Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning into this podcast, then do not hesitate to write a review. You can also share this with your fellow mothers so that they can be inspired to think more and do with less. Order (or review) my book, Minimalist Moms: Living & Parenting With Simplicity. You can contact me through my website, find me on Instagram, Pinterest or like The Minimalist Moms Page on Facebook. Our Sponsors: * Check out BetterHelp and use my code betterhelp.com for a great deal: https://www.betterhelp.com * Check out Cure Hydration and use my code MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://www.curehydration.com * Check out DeleteMe and use my code joindeleteme.com/MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://joindeleteme.com * Check out Wayfair: https://www.wayfair.com Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

## Transcript

[0:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, a classic study, it's people were asked like, where the nearest fire extinguisher was to their office, like, people don't know where it is.
[0:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I don't know where the one closest to mine.
[0:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this is something that's designed to be noticeable literally life-saving, but kind of filter it out.
[0:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Now, pile screens on top of this, right?
[0:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you're even more distracted, and you're just moving through the world with no sense of what's happening physically.
[0:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And screens can do amazing things, and like that's what's allowing us to talk and meet a talk to your audience.
[0:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's, I mean, it's super cool how it can connect us, but it's also it's too dimensional, right?
[0:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's, and it's main, the main senses are sight and sound.
[0:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: can't help us with touch, it can't help us with smell, it can't give us these full three-dimensional multi-sensory experiences that our physical surroundings have.
[0:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's just like that there's no way it can substitute for what that physical world can do and I think that's a shame.
[0:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is Diane Bowdoin, and you're listening to the minimalist mom's podcasts.
[0:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What if creating a more intentional life starts with rethinking the spaces around you?
[1:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Today I'm joined by behavioral scientists and author, Lighty Clots, to explore a powerful and often overlooked idea.
[1:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Our surroundings don't just reflect who we are, they actively shape who we become.
[1:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: While so much advice focuses on mindset, habits, and routines, lighting invites us to zoom out and consider where those things are happening.
[1:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: From the layout of your kitchen to the design of your neighborhood, physical spaces influence your ability to connect, focus, learn, and thrive.
[1:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: In this conversation, we unpack how to work with your environment, not against it, and how even small intentional changes can have a profound impact on your daily life.
[1:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But quickly before we get there, I want to draw your attention to episode 207 of the minimalist mom's podcast.
[1:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The episode was Swedish death-cleaning morbid or mandatory with my guest Emily McDermott.
[1:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: For those of you that are unfamiliar with Swedish death-cleaning, it's not really about death, it's about living more intentionally right now.
[1:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's the practice of slowly removing the excess from your home and your life so that one day your loved ones aren't left without weight of sorting through it all while they're grieving.
[2:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I really love this concept because it shifts to cluttering from something that's purely practical for your everyday and to something deeply meaningful.
[2:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Asking to consider not just what you own, but why you're continuing to hold on to it, and whether it's actually serving you and the people you care about the most.
[2:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I'll be sure to include a link to that episode in the show notes if that peaked your interest.
[2:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then lastly, if you've yet to leave a rating and review for the minimalist mom's podcast, I asked you just to pause for a brief moment, hit five stars, tell me your favorite guest, how the podcast has been impactful to you.
[2:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is one of the best ways you can help support the show, as well as sharing it with a friend that could benefit from this content today with Lighty.
[2:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: As always, I appreciate you being here, and I hope this content has beneficial to you.
[2:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So let's get to it.
[2:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, Lydie, it's so great to talk to you again today.
[2:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You have a new book coming out, or maybe it is out.
[2:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's South and April, right?
[2:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: April 28th.
[3:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So what about with this releases?
[3:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're talking on the 24th, but yeah, it's right here.
[3:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So yeah, no, in a good place.
[3:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No, I'm so excited for people to get their hands on this and to read this one after your last one was so successful as well.
[3:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So thanks for joining me for the second time, but quickly for the listeners that may not have heard that first episode, I'll be sure to link it in the show notes.
[3:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Why don't you go ahead and re-introduce yourself and we'll get started.
[3:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: OK, I mean, officially I'm a professor at the University of Virginia in the Department of Engineering and Society.
[3:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I do a lot of research in behavioral science too.
[3:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was on last time because I wrote a book called Subtract on Tap Science of Less about how we don't think to take away to make things better.
[3:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And now we're talking about my latest book called In A Good Place and it's about how the places where we live work and play can help us thrive.
[3:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I'm excited to be here.
[3:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah, this idea, the science of where exploring the hidden impact of our everyday surroundings, I'm about halfway through the book and it is really interesting just kind of peaking my interest about using all of our senses when considering our surroundings and how sometimes when we're not mindful or intentional, we don't notice the small things, which is something I speak to all the time on the show.
[4:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I guess I'll ask you first and foremost why this
[4:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: where I sit kind of at this intersection of the physical world and the mental world that was like, what is the most important stuff for people to know about this relationship between our surroundings and our inner world?
[4:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because we all know that like, yeah, our surroundings matter, but I think,
[4:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: really just getting into okay what why do they matter what we should what should we be looking to them for and that's where it's like kind of these basic psychological needs for agency competence and connection that are surroundings either feet or star but like you said the first step in that is just noticing right and that's not easy.
[4:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[4:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no, absolutely.
[4:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think what's interesting is that in the first part of your book, you talk a lot about this idea of agency behind cultivating our spaces.
[5:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I guess let's talk about that and how important it is for us to be connected with the shoot the spaces that we're creating around us.
[5:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, I think where this instinct comes from or this psychological need is just that our ancestors that were pulled to modify their spaces, to make them protect themselves from the elements, and protect themselves to predators, were more likely to survive and pass down their genes to us.
[5:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, I mean, we still have that instinct to want to, or that need to,
[5:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: shape our spaces.
[5:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so like habitat actually does a good job with agency, right?
[5:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because it's like your people, the community is engaged in building the house.
[5:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this is how it's like such a successful charity.
[5:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: People are literally building together, which is this very satisfying thing to do.
[5:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And yeah, I also talked about what kind of humanitarian workers have learned through trial and error over time.
[6:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: people who are refugees kind of rebuild their life is to give them agency and rebuilding the spaces because if you think about this is a very extreme example of people who have had like every bit of agency taken away they literally can't live in the place that they want to live.
[6:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: one of the ways that they can start building it back is to be able to shape their physical environment.
[6:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So in addition to, you know, hey, they're going to best know what kind of kitchen setup works for their culture or whatever.
[6:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's also just about like, hey, I can actually control this world around me.
[6:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then it goes, I mean, it goes all the way down into kids, right?
[6:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, you see the
[6:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: how proud a kid is of doing their artwork, for example, right?
[6:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, now think about when they can do that in a space, right?
[6:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If they get, how fun is it when the, like speaking of kids?
[7:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Little kids, like get to redecorate their rooms, right?
[7:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then they're like, oh, I did that, and this is part of it.
[7:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I've got my sons 11 now, and we just, I was writing,
[7:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: the part about agency and I'm like, oh, I wonder if I can like involve in some real projects and we're just putting like carpet tiles down on the stairs to make them have better traction and I help let him pick out the colors and then also like help put them down and you know he.
[7:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: feels that's a way to give agency.
[7:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I mean, we can get agency in a lot of different ways now, but the original way is through our spaces and thinking about thinking about that for our kids, for ourselves, for everybody else is a good place to start.
[7:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah, agency is one piece out of the three psychological needs that you suggest in the book.
[7:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The other is connected on the other is growth.
[7:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You talked a little bit about the connection piece.
[7:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know if you want to go into a deeper dive regarding that, but talk a little bit more about growth and what that looks like in our real home environment.
[8:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, so growth and competence here.
[8:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So if agency is like, hey, I can,
[8:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know that I can make changes to this world around me, growth and competence is that actually doing it, right?
[8:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so, I mean, that's just the feeling of accomplishing something and then learning from having accomplished that thing.
[8:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And there used to be more opportunities to do that.
[8:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I think GPS is amazing, right?
[8:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And but it also kind of takes away this,
[8:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: opportunity to navigate our surroundings and feel a sense of accomplishment from having done so.
[8:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so I think though that is the kind of competence and growth that we can get from navigating and shaping our surroundings and we need to be careful not to...
[8:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: not to get rid of all of it.
[8:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm not saying I'm going to stop using GPS, but I'm also like, hey, if there's a time when I want to just explore my neighborhood without my phone, I can do it and I'm going to feel more comfortable in different parts of the neighborhood and also kind of feel more confident in myself.
[9:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And again, you can take this back to watching kids, right?
[9:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, if they
[9:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Part of the art is like I can do it, part of it is like, hey, I'm showing off to mom that I did this thing, building sand castles on the beach, same thing, right?
[9:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, they all these different activities you could potentially do at the beach and like kids are so and grown-ups are drawn to like building stuff in the physical world and think about what they're burning when they're doing that, right?
[9:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When my daughter's building a sand castle, she's like,
[9:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: learning fluid dynamics that engineering students learn in like there's a fear of like how this is eroding the sand and material properties of the sand.
[9:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But they're also learning about themselves that like, hey, if this gets knocked down, I can try again.
[9:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that feels good.
[9:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So learning through interaction with your surroundings.
[9:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, absolutely.
[9:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm wondering, maybe some practicalities are a practical way that we can implement your book into the spaces in our home.
[10:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If someone is feeling overwhelmed and whatever way that overwhelm might be in their home, is there one of those areas that would be most important to tap into?
[10:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm assuming it would be agency like just taking the control back for you can, right?
[10:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I think so.
[10:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think, you know, also like identifying when you feel like you don't have agency and then taking agency in other ways, like maybe you rent your home, for example, and you paint the walls and you're like, oh, that's frustrating.
[10:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, that's because my agency's being taken away.
[10:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so, but can I rearrange the furniture or can I, you know, clean up this room in a way that makes it totally different?
[10:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think that that's gonna have ripple effects.
[10:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: psychiatrists, but I understand that one of the things that they will do if people are struggling with the depression is have people do something in their home, right?
[10:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like cleanup or like rearrange your kitchen, and it's not because that fixes depression, it's because like feeling like you can impact the world.
[11:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: makes you feel better.
[11:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So yeah, I would I would start there and I would, you know, maybe one cue is like, oh, I feel like my agency is constrained and so I'm going to take action in some way and see how it feels.
[11:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I also think that part of the block here is that we think of our face spaces as like fixed and rigid and we're like, oh, like, I'm going to change it when I
[11:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: do the kitchen renovation, that's got to cost $50,000 or whatever, right?
[11:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But in reality, our relationship with our space is always evolving, right?
[11:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can be in a different place in the space.
[11:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We have, there's a story in the book.
[11:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I tell about my neighbors, or my friends, the leaves, they have, well, at the time they had four kids under the age of seven.
[11:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So they had two twin boys and then like, a little before year old and one year older something.
[11:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They I would I would always ask them how they were doing because it made me feel good about my life, and I One time I asked the dead.
[12:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: How you doing and he's like?
[12:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, it's great.
[12:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We figured out we've just been eating outside and I was like, what do you mean like you eat outside on Friday nights to he's like No, every meal outside and he's like it's changed our life and he's like we go out there and
[12:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When the kids spill, it doesn't matter when they're done eating, they can go run and play on the jungle gym.
[12:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When they're yelling and streaming, it doesn't bounce around the walls.
[12:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That was a space that was right there that they just needed to think about using it in a slightly different way.
[12:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: To point being not that everybody should do that, but that we can move among the spaces to which we have access.
[12:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This doesn't always require a renovation.
[12:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no, that's so interesting.
[12:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love that story.
[12:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You did talk a little bit about mental health there.
[12:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Maybe the emotional side of all of this.
[12:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm curious what the cool space can teach us.
[12:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You talk about physical space can teach us to draw emotional boundaries.
[13:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'd love for you to go inside here.
[13:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This was inspired again by my daughter and I was walking through my, the toy room, but it's connected to where the laundry is and I was doing some of her laundry and she's like sitting there on the floor, playing with toys and she's like space.
[13:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she said, no space, you have to give me space and then I was like, well, can I like walk over here to get to the laundry and she's okay.
[13:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, but you can't look at me.
[13:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But like she had been learning that at school as kind of to play in the crowded playroom at school.
[13:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You were allowed to yell space and that meant that like kids couldn't just run you over.
[13:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You were like doing your own thing in this space.
[13:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But it's also.
[13:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: of course they're teaching them that like this is where this is you like you get to determine what's happening here and other people can't just infringe on you if you don't want them to.
[13:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So this is like the first step like learning those physical boundaries is the first step in learning emotional boundaries and yeah so I think that is uh
[14:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And of course, it, you know, that's a kid, a three-year-old, or maybe she was for at the time, but that this applies to all of us, right?
[14:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And like thinking about how we set up our physical spaces to let people in, to give ourselves options of when we want to be alone, just send signals that now I'm in private, now I'm open, and I think that the physical boundaries, what's really, what I find really interesting about it
[14:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: All the talk about boundaries over the last 10 years, but the huge buzzword, right?
[14:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's all about emotional boundaries, but it's a physical term, right?
[14:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And there's so many concepts like this that originated in the physical world, and then you can obviously move into our mental world as well.
[14:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So in your research, it sounds like other countries might design their spaces.
[14:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I guess better for the collective.
[14:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm curious to know what you have seen there, specifically in Sweden and Japan, you mentioned.
[15:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, the general thing is that the spaces are going to reflect the values, right?
[15:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And whether or not I make a judgment on what's better or worse, and you know, I've talked a lot about the playgrounds in Sweden and those in my mind are just objectively better.
[15:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[15:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But we have here.
[15:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, there's a, you know, a small town that we go to in Sweden that
[15:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: it has this amazing playground in the center of town.
[15:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it's almost like you're at Disney World.
[15:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And, you know, they're like these thoughtfully carved.
[15:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's self-serve zip lines.
[15:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's like these paths that are like forfeet tall, like the trees are pruned at forfeet tall.
[15:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So kids can just zip it through and parents can't really.
[15:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, and just everybody's there, but even the playground that's just at the end of the block that, you know, is just serving that small area
[15:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: will have like a four story tree house with a curving slide coming down from it and it's all built out of like mass timber instead of plastic and it just sends a signal of like
[16:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is how we value kids and family in this society, right?
[16:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so I think that's the thing, of course, I think we should all have amazing playgrounds, but we also need to take this larger view of how we build the world is saying, is advertising what our values are, right?
[16:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Whether it's your individual house or whether it's what you build as a community, and I think that's a thing to pay attention to, but it's also a huge opportunity to be able to share our values.
[16:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, and you say in Japan, they live in multi-generational homes, and I think that's the values of how important that strong foundation of the family can be, and we don't live that way in this country.
[16:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I feel like people as soon as they can fly the coop, maybe as a generalization, they do.
[16:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, no, and it's seen like as the thing to do, right?
[16:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so again, this is working from both directions, right?
[17:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Part of it is like it's a social norm, but part of it is that's what the bill environment set up for, right?
[17:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If they were all multi-generational houses around, then more people would be likely to do this.
[17:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I would talk positively about Sweden and Denmark, but one of the problems they have in Denmark is that his college doesn't cost
[17:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: money so like what most parents do for their kids is instead of paying for college they give them their first apartment and at this time in their life they go straight from like a very social college environment to now because there's the money they have like their own individual apartment and there's a real like loneliness problem.
[17:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: tied directly to how the physical surroundings are set on.
[17:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no, that's so, so interesting.
[17:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm curious, towards the last part of your book, you talk a lot about, again, the values, home signaling values, and transmitting memories across generations.
[17:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just love for you to continue to speak to that part of what this can actually look like long term.
[18:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, this has been like one function of the built environment as long as it's existed, right?
[18:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Egyptians were building pyramids, so that you remember Farrow and people will donate buildings to college campuses, right?
[18:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And which I appreciate, and but it, you know, and the part of the reason is like your family name is then on there for a long period of time.
[18:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I also think about this at other scales where like my, every screen porch that I go on now, I think of my grandmother, who,
[18:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: passed away at a hundred a while back.
[18:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And...
[18:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So like because we had conversations on the screen porch at our little cabin in New Hampshire and she would drink tea out and talk to me about the Boston Red Sox in the Celtics.
[18:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And she wasn't doing that intentionally like putting screen porches and her into my memory together, but I think when you're thinking about doing things with your own kids or people that you love recognizing that like the memory gets filed with the space, right?
[19:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so if you can do things in a space that
[19:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: is novel or is meaningful in some way then that gives like more opportunity for the memories to happen and also kind of brings back the space to them as well.
[19:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Absolutely.
[19:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: A couple more things I'd love for you to speak to.
[19:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One is this idea of our obsession with screen time and our devices.
[19:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You mentioned a little bit about GPS.
[19:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If we're following our GPS everywhere, we don't ever have that intuitive
[19:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: sense of direction.
[19:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's like taking that away from us.
[19:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: How else are the screens contributing to taking away from?
[19:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, we probably should have started with this.
[19:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I might throw it back in.
[19:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So let's go.
[19:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, it's OK. Yeah.
[19:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, you're first, because you're first comment about like noticing, right?
[19:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this predate screens are built in like, our propensity not to notice our spaces, right?
[19:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So part of this is just habituation.
[19:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If things don't pose an opportunity or a threat, we stop noticing them.
[20:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it makes sense, right?
[20:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We wouldn't want to notice our base board and the carpet.
[20:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: you know, door handle every time we move through the space.
[20:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But it also like, it becomes a problem when you're missing opportunities that would bring you joy.
[20:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, a classic study, it's people were asked like where the nearest fire extinguisher was to their office.
[20:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[20:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And like people don't know where it is.
[20:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I don't know where the one closest to mine.
[20:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And this is something that's designed to be noticed of all literally life-saving, but kind of filter it out.
[20:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Now, pile screens on top of this, and you're even more distracted and you're just moving through the world with no sense of what's happening physically.
[20:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Plus, just the screens can do amazing things, and that's what's allowing us to talk and meet a talk to your audience.
[20:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it's super cool how it can connect us, but it's also
[20:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They can't help us with touch.
[21:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It can't help us with smell.
[21:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They can't give us these full three-dimensional multi-sensory experiences that our physical surroundings have.
[21:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's just like there's no way it can substitute for what that physical world can do.
[21:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think that's a shame.
[21:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, especially because with the generations now that get these devices at such an age, it is curious to know what their experience will be like here in their 20s and 30s.
[21:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's just such an attachment there that's really sad.
[21:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think that's a little joy is in the little bits of noticing that hopefully you and I still have at our age, I want to lose that.
[21:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like I don't want that to go away.
[21:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: and the learning too, right?
[21:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, if there's times when you just look to your surroundings for the answer, right?
[21:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, where is that thing?
[21:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's over here or like, what's going on in the world?
[21:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What's the temperature, even, right?
[21:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's like, now like the instinct to find out what the weather is is to like, look at your phone to answer this question that you could just, like literally take in what's around you.
[22:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's the truth.
[22:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that is something to guard again, certainly.
[22:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I'll make my kids go outside if they ask what the weather's like, I'm like, go test it.
[22:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, perfect.
[22:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know where I figure out what you need to wear because also what I might wear on a day like today versus what they might wear is, so yeah, exactly there's that and that's a perfect illustration, right?
[22:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like no matter how detailed the weather forecast is on your screen, it can't capture.
[22:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: everything that, like, it actually, the is actually happening if you go outside, right?
[22:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because there's like the temperature, there's the humidity, there's the wind, there's the sun, there's, you know, just whatever.
[22:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, yeah.
[22:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sure.
[22:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, I can't have you here talking about spaces, and not about clutter.
[22:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah.
[22:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, we'd love to hear what you have learned about clutter in our spaces.
[22:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, this is important.
[22:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's in the book.
[22:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's not just for your people, but I mean, so I think, yeah, like our grandmother's classic advice about cleaning up is very smart, kind of, but it's, I mean, yes, partly it's about, you know, showing people that you have your act together, but it's also just about like getting distractions out of the space.
[23:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So ostensibly if somebody's coming into your space it's because you want to get, do we want to connect with them for some reason?
[23:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, shingards and boxer briefs or whatever on the floor, that's like little moments where they're like, okay, trying to analyze that or see that or not step on that.
[23:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well,
[23:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: also trying to connect with me is just not going to go as well.
[23:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So cleaning up like that kind of clutter, but also just like cleaning up as kind of a decorating aesthetic, right?
[23:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, if people come in and you've got this amazing chandelier that's going to draw their attention in the first 10 minutes of every conversation, just know that, right?
[23:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Or maybe like steer them around that to so that, you know, they can the focus can be on.
[24:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: connecting with them.
[24:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Right.
[24:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I think one thing that I do is just when people are coming over, just go outside my house and like walk in and try to put myself in their shoes and like, how are they going to experience this?
[24:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you might notice things that, you know, because of the situation that we talked about before, we've just moved through this space so much and don't even see it anymore, but it's going to totally distract the people that we want to connect with.
[24:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[24:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, well, I also thought this isn't have to do with clutter, but you were mentioning a friend of yours that's a realtor and oh, yeah, each space encloses her eyes.
[24:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it's noticing what else that you're picking up on outside of vision, because that's usually how we take everything in, but if you're talking about a full sensory experience, that's something we should do in our spaces, just again, just to even be more present and mindful in the moment.
[24:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I felt that was so simple.
[24:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And outside is such a dominant sense.
[24:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like this is why people close their eyes when they're eating food, right?
[24:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like that you, that it, it ends the sense of taste.
[24:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you can just do that in a space and you will notice things.
[25:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And in addition to the pleasures that you might not be noticing, it could also be like bad things that you aren't noticing that are still affecting you.
[25:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So if you're in like a very noisy space, for example, you might not even identify it as noisy, but you'll still have like elevated stress.
[25:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's kind of like off-guessing carpets and things like that.
[25:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[25:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That makes sense.
[25:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, I just did it to you when I was speaking.
[25:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I will often close my eyes because you're trying to think.
[25:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, you just get you get hyper-focused and it's if you're wanting to say something with intention and clarity, it helps to remove any type of distraction if you're really trying to be intentional about your words.
[25:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I apologize, I do that all the time.
[25:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've been noticing it.
[25:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm like, people probably think I'm so weird.
[25:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think I just get really over-stimulated by my environment sometimes, which hence why I like, I would have cluttered home because I feel all of that.
[25:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[25:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[25:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you'd like to share regarding your book?
[26:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like I said, this was just such an interesting approach to a topic, I guess, that may go over look
[26:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, no, I mean, nothing else.
[26:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think I really think that this is a way that people can make their lives better, that it's underused right now.
[26:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I hope that people find this conversation helpful in that way.
[26:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[26:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like I said, it's super interesting and tons of photos in your book as well that you're just drawing attention to.
[26:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I always appreciate that as well.
[26:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Sun said, your next, that's what he's this comment on my last book.
[26:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's like, there needs to be more pictures.
[26:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think he wanted it all pictures, but whatever.
[26:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, it's not that.
[26:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no, I love a good visual representation of what I'm reading.
[26:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, no, I mean, it's like worth a thousand words, right?
[26:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, and then yeah.
[26:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, well, where can listeners connect with you?
[26:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Grab a copy of this book if they want to do so.
[26:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The books anywhere books are sold.
[26:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: My website, lidyclots.com has, you know, you can see what else I'm up to there.
[27:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: perfect.
[27:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, I don't know if we did this last time, but I always ask my guest to questions here at the end.
[27:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think I did do this.
[27:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The first one is, what has been a beneficial resource in your life that you want to share with the listeners?
[27:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'll have to go back and see if I answered it the same way.
[27:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think just books in general, I just feel like they're whatever problem you're facing or whatever, they're just so so amazing or so much great good information in books.
[27:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[27:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I didn't ask you this because I had you come on during my rebrand.
[27:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I rebranded for a short period of time to clear intentions.
[27:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I wouldn't have asked you that this time.
[27:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So this is all brand new.
[27:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, good.
[27:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I didn't repeat myself.
[27:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No, you didn't.
[27:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, yeah.
[27:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then my final question is what is something you can't stop talking about?
[27:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Probably youth sports.
[27:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've spent a lot of time talking to other parents.
[27:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I think it's just such a...
[27:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The obviously there's like a lot of easy ways to criticize it, but I think it's right on this knife's edge of being the greatest thing ever for kids and being the worst thing ever for kids and I think like just a few treats here and there I can put it in one direction or another, but we're having a lot of fun with you soccer and have a good setup right now, but it's interesting.
[28:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: as a societal phenomenon, right?
[28:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like what is happening here?
[28:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What are we?
[28:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What are our goals?
[28:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[28:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: No, it is interesting because I'm pretty, I was in an athlete growing up, so I already have that bit of a detachment.
[28:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But now that my voice, I see that I see the benefits of it.
[28:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So they're both in soccer and just showing up to the field.
[28:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not that I'm not competitive, but the way that some people behave, it is just foreign for me to experience.
[28:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, in the competitive, I get being competitive around like you want your, you have high expectations for your kid to be a good teammate or to work hard or like if you commit to something to do your best at it.
[28:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But like the competitiveness around you have to, yeah, it's a destroy this, for other kid who's trying to do the same thing is kind of interesting.
[29:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I think I think it's that's counterproductive.
[29:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
[29:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I could talk about that for a long time too as well, but I will let you go.
[29:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think you've given us enough to think on again, I one of my biggest takeaways is that GPS point that you made about just losing our instinctual ability to know the direction.
[29:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I feel like that was ingrained in me as a child.
[29:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I always knew where I was going because I would just look out the window.
[29:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And yeah, I'm like, my kids don't know where we are half the time.
[29:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They don't even really want to get to our grant, my grant parents house.
[29:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So looking out the window, I've been thinking about that.
[29:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I start using that as an example.
[29:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, because I was like, my childhood.
[29:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you're on a car ride, you're looking out the window, and you're seeing like different geography, and like, yeah, you're learning, and like, and you're also kind of like thinking right, you're thinking about like abstract things,
[29:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: immersed in a movie or a video game or something.
[29:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no, it is a huge, surely people are like, how do you know where you're going?
[29:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I'm like, I just looked out the window.
[30:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My mom was always taking me places.
[30:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I would just look out and observe.
[30:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think that my, my,
[30:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: distinct landmarks to know where to turn or I'm, I'm familiar with this area, but yeah, it's like we have lost the sense of familiarity to, to even our closest environment.
[30:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Even the neighborhood next door, I don't think my kids would just, they wouldn't be that familiar because they're not paying attention.
[30:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So yeah, as you used that as an example, because that was for you and I, what we would do in the car.
[30:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes.
[30:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, yeah.
[30:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, I really appreciate you joining me for writing this book.
[30:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thanks again.
[30:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It was great talking.
[30:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, likewise, thank you.
[30:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What did you think of the episode?
[30:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
[30:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: To learn more about today's guest, including links, resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at minimalismomspodcast.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as my book, minimalismoms, living and parenting with simplicity, or other ways to connect or work with me online.
[30:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave a rating or review of your favorite episode.
[31:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends and social media is very helpful and will encourage others on their journey to think more and do with less.

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