# Navigating Vaccine Decisions Without Fear or Pressure | Dr. Joel Warsh (Bonus Episode)

An episode of [Minimalist Moms Podcast | Purposeful Life & Parenting Tips](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1159498258), 19 Aug 2026, 32 min.

Audio: https://prefix.up.audio/s/pdst.fm/e/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/mgln.ai/e/35/audio2.redcircle.com/episodes/443578e1-e398-4bc3-b0dc-0cced6a12081/stream.mp3

If you've been listening for a while, you know my goal with this podcast has never been to tell you what to think. My hope has always been to introduce you to thoughtful people, different perspectives, and conversations that encourage you to think more deeply and live more intentionally. Parenting today often means sorting through an overwhelming amount of health information, and few topics feel more emotionally charged than vaccines. In this conversation, I sit down with pediatrician and integrative medicine physician Dr. Joel "Gator" Warsh to discuss how parents can navigate these decisions with confidence, curiosity, and compassion. Dr. Warsh shares his journey from conventional pediatrics to integrative medicine and explains why he believes parents deserve thoughtful conversations about risks, benefits, schedules, and informed consent - not simply a choice between opposing sides. I know this topic can bring up strong opinions, and I understand that. My intention in sharing this conversation is not to persuade you toward a particular healthcare decision or to replace the advice of your trusted medical provider. Rather, it's to create space for respectful dialogue around a topic many parents are already wrestling with. Links Discussed in This Episode | • Previous Episode: "You Are Responsible For Your Children's Health" | Joel Warsh (EP347) • Connect with Dr. Joel Warsh: • Website • Instagram • Book: Between a Shot and a Hard Place: Tackling Difficult Vaccine Questions with Balance, Data, and Clarity About Dr. Joel Warsh | Joel Warsh is a board-certified pediatrician in Los Angeles specializing in parenting, wellness, and integrative medicine. He is the author of multiple books, including Between a Shot and a Hard Place, Love Dad, and Parenting at Your Child’s Pace. Originally from Toronto, he holds a Master’s in Epidemiology and earned his medical degree from Thomas Jefferson Medical College. After training at Children’s Hospital of Los Angeles, he founded Integrative Pediatrics and has published research on childhood health, obesity, and physical activity. Episode Sponsors | The Minimalist Moms Podcast would not be possible without the support of weekly sponsors. Choosing brands that I believe in is important to me. I only want to recommend brands that I believe may help you in your daily life. As always, never feel pressured into buying anything. Remember: if you don't need it, it's not a good deal! Enjoy the Podcast? Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning into this podcast, then do not hesitate to write a review. You can also share this with your fellow mothers so that they can be inspired to think more and do with less. Order (or review) my book, Minimalist Moms: Living & Parenting With Simplicity. • You can contact me through my website, find me on Instagram, Pinterest or like The Minimalist Moms Page on Facebook. Our Sponsors: * Check out 1-800-GOT-JUNK and use my code 1800gotjunk.com for a great deal: https://www.1800gotjunk.com * Check out BetterHelp and use my code betterhelp.com for a great deal: https://www.betterhelp.com * Check out Cure Hydration and use my code MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://www.curehydration.com * Check out Wayfair: https://www.wayfair.com Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

## Transcript

[0:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: For those of you that are new around here, I released bonus episodes that serve a niche part of my audience, so if this content is something that doesn't fit what you're looking for, check out the other episodes that drop this week or join me back here next week for episodes that you don't want to miss.
[0:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: and they're like, well, I want my kid to be healthy, and I don't want to not give them a vaccine and then they get some disease and die or get really sick, but I also don't want to give them a vaccine and them have a bad reaction and they read about, you know, maybe they're rare, but they read about the kid that had a bad reaction and they're like, I don't want them.
[0:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So that's not unreasonable to question.
[0:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: it fears never the best motivator.
[0:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think operating like you said from empowerment, from research, from asking questions, and then knowing that I think having the knowledge of I am making the best choice with all of this, from being equipped in all these ways that I'm making the best choice possible.
[0:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I do think there's so much fear on both sides of these, both of the sides that we have to choose that that's not helpful and it plays into why you feel so bad for parents.
[0:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is Diane Bowden, and you're listening to the minimalist mom's podcast.
[1:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Before we dive into today's conversation, I wanted to take a moment to share why I chose to air this episode.
[1:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you've been listening for a while, you know my goal with this podcast has never been to tell you what to think.
[1:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My hope has always been to introduce you to thoughtful people, different perspectives, and conversations that encourage you to think more deeply, and to live with more intention.
[1:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Parenting today, often means sorting through an overwhelming amount of health information and few topics feel more emotionally charged than vaccines.
[1:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: In today's conversation, I sit down with pediatrician and integrative medicine physician Dr. Joel Gator, Wash, to discuss how parents can navigate these decisions with confidence, curiosity and compassion.
[1:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Dr. Wash shares his journey from conventional pediatrics to integrated medicine and explains why he believes parents deserve thoughtful conversations about risks, benefits, schedules, informed consent, not simply a choice between opposing sides.
[1:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: All that say I know this topic can bring up strong opinions and I understand that.
[1:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's my intention in sharing this conversation is not to persuade you toward a particular health care decision, or to replace the advice of your trusted medical doctor.
[2:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Rather, I'm simply just trying to create space for respectful dialogue around a topic that many parents are already wrestling with.
[2:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And transparently, one of the healthiest things that we can do,
[2:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: As humans is to remain curious to ask good questions and to be willing to engage with ideas without immediately dismissing one another.
[2:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Open dialogue, thoughtful disagreement, and a willingness to listen are part of an educated and healthy society, and while we all may not arrive at the same conclusions, I don't believe the answer is to stop having these conversations all together.
[2:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So whether or not you agree with everything in today's episode, some of it, none of it, I hope you'll listen with an open mind and that same spirit of curiosity and respect that I strive to bring in every conversation that you hear on the show.
[2:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So with that said, let's get into this bonus conversation with Dr. Joel Warsh.
[2:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But you're back for your second time on this show.
[3:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thanks for joining me today.
[3:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't actually think that on our last interview, which I'll be sure to link it in the show notes.
[3:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't think we actually went into your story of how you became pediatrician.
[3:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Can you just share a little bit more about that?
[3:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then the second part of that, I'd love to know why vaccines peak your curiosity as well.
[3:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[3:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, okay.
[3:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So for me, I always love science and I loved working with kids when I was growing up by a group in Canada and you know, I coached my brother in hockey and baseball and that worked in summer camps and and I just love working with kids and so when I went to med school was to be come with future shings, I always thought that you know kids listen better, you can actually help.
[3:40] \[SPEAKER_00\]: and get ahead of things, and so that really was what interested me in going into to pediatric medicine.
[3:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I had a pretty standard training.
[3:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I went to, you know, regular great med school in Philadelphia, did training at Chontospalus Angelius, which is one of the top five pediatric programs very Western-minded.
[3:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that was just kind of...
[4:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: you know, all the normal medical training and didn't think much of it, but I met my wife on that wife during residency and she's very holistic minded.
[4:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it opened on my eyes a little bit to a different world and peaked my interest in integrated medicine.
[4:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so I started learning a little bit, uh, functional medicine and integrated medicine during that time and certainly early
[4:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You really didn't med school kind of learned all that stuff like woo woo when out there and that's kind of all you hear about it and then when I went and started learning I was like, wow, this is really interesting and really nothing's about this at all like what's a woo woo about learning about nutrition and exercise and these things so I just thought it was really interesting and I started practicing that way and try to blending both worlds together and people really love that but.
[4:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is kind of the second part of your question, so you realize really quickly that when you start working in the integrated medical space that parents have a lot more questions about vaccines and are a lot more hesitant about vaccines than I was used to and I was getting a lot more questions around vaccines and a lot more people don't want to do so schedules or even not want to vaccinate and so there was a lot more that I felt like I had to learn because really what you learned in
[5:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: training when it comes to vaccines is vaccines are great and here are the horrible diseases that we've had and here's how few diseases we have now and here's the schedule will go do that and you don't really think about it, you don't really question it, you don't learn.
[5:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: too much more.
[5:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that was kind of where I was.
[5:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I had to be able to answer those questions.
[5:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I didn't feel like a had great answers.
[5:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's still a lot of that questions.
[5:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so the more that I learned the more questions that I had.
[5:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's what kind of, I guess, entering into the vaccine world a little bit was the last place I ever.
[5:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: would have thought I'd be talking about or dealing with and as I was answering those questions more and more in the office.
[5:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was getting more and more questions about that online as I was doing more stuff on social media and I think as everybody knows it's a very highly controversial topic and something that was highly censored so I never talked about it for a long time and really until COVID and
[6:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: with all the pushback, and I guess the frustration around that I decided that I needed to talk about, I really wanted to, and that's what let me try to book between the shot and the fireplace and dive into the topic a little bit more, and here we are today, talking about vaccines, which I never imagined ever would, and it's like the most controversial thing you could talk about, but,
[6:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah.
[6:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no.
[6:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And transparently, I also have nuanced opinions when it comes to vaccines, which ones how often like it.
[6:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm not pro or anti-vax.
[6:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I do want to put that out here at the beginning, because I'm sure that someone has already turned this off.
[6:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But for those of you that are still here listening,
[6:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I do think that there are so many people that are just tiptoeing and waiting into some of these questions that you have been hearing in your own office.
[6:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think the vaccine conversation is just missing nuance here.
[6:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's just not such a black and white statement and I think that's probably
[6:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: providing some of this tension.
[6:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I remember a few celebrities talking about this, but it did kind of seem like, sorry for lack of a better term, like West Coast hippie, we're having these conversations, but COVID was the turning point where it was like, whoa, whoa, like let's slow down.
[7:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Let's start to open this dialogue a little bit more.
[7:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, and, you know, you kind of mentioned your position, and I think for me, I'm not against vaccines at all, I think that's important to say, I believe in informed consent, I believe in choice.
[7:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, that's my personal opinion.
[7:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't believe people should be forced to do anything, but I'm certainly not against vaccines in any way.
[7:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just believe that people should be given information, and then they should be able to make the best decision.
[7:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: For them and their family and in my office, we have lots of people that do the regular schedule of vaccines.
[7:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We have some that do slow schedule on some that choose not to do it.
[7:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just don't force people to do it and we talk about it and talk about the risks and the benefits.
[7:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Certainly people could say, I'll eat my anti-vaccine, but that doesn't make any sense.
[7:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like I'm certainly not.
[7:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've had vaccines in my life and many of the patients in our office get all the vaccine.
[7:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So... Yeah.
[7:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think...
[7:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The problem is as soon as this conversation comes up, it's not nuanced, it's like you have to be on one team and that's what made me so frustrated is I just don't feel like there were teams and there's so much information that I just couldn't find and that that's ultimately why I wrote the book it wasn't to convince people to do vaccines or to not it was to try to dive into the questions I keep getting.
[8:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: from really, you know, reasonable intelligent parents who, like, just don't know what to do and have questions about vaccines and aren't necessarily against it, but have heard, you know, different things, or about autism, heard about other concerns, and are like, well, what's true?
[8:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What's not true?
[8:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What do we know?
[8:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What do we not know?
[8:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And
[8:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I really felt like I needed to dive in as deeply as possible so that way could have conversations because ultimately I think that's what we need, we shouldn't, as soon as you hear a conversation like this, it shouldn't just turn you off and be like, oh, and they've actually talked to that person, but that's always what happens, and people don't listen to it and they're like, oh, you know, you shouldn't have these conversations, but we should have these conversations, we should be able to talk about everything vaccines or a product,
[8:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They're not some magical, you know, pills or anything like that, it's a it's a medical product with a purpose and we need to be able to talk about risks versus benefits.
[9:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Who does it benefit when when are their risks?
[9:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What are those risks?
[9:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And we want to weigh that out.
[9:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, we don't want kids to get infectious diseases.
[9:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But we also don't want side effects.
[9:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And if you can't talk about the risks, then you can't make a better.
[9:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you should always be trying to make a better and figure out what the best schedule is, what the best vaccines are, what are the most important vaccines, what do we need, what do we prioritize?
[9:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that was never really the discussion.
[9:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It was always just more and more and more and more and more isn't always better.
[9:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think we're at this point now where
[9:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: there's so much pushback and it's so confusing and people don't trust medicine anymore and a lot of people don't trust vaccines anymore and if we don't talk about it it's not going to fix anything it's not going to help anything we have to have these discussions so we can understand what we do and don't know so we can get better information because hopefully we can have a better safer program of vaccines 10 years from now but we can't have that to talk about it
[9:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, I'm so glad you mentioned that I do think that because it's so polarized so much as last when it turns to those two sides versus the dialogue and then it shifts into a lack of trust in the medical industry or just like the medical complex or doctors from your perspective, what do you think trustworthy medical guidance looks like today.
[10:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, I think it should look like informed decision making, so I think you should be able to express as a physician what you feel like is best for a child or or, you know, the family based on your experience and what you've learned and then you should be open having a discussion and you should be asking parents where they're at what they think, what their interests are and then you should discuss that and especially when it comes to vaccines, I think.
[10:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, the standard is the CDC schedule, the regular American and repeat that trick schedule.
[10:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And if somebody wants to do that, I think that's fine.
[10:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, that's totally reasonable.
[10:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's what's been studied and recommended.
[10:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you should talk about that.
[10:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You should talk about what's on it.
[10:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then you should talk about the risks that we know from vaccines and what those risks are.
[11:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then they should, no, go do it.
[11:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think if they have anything else, any other questions, they want to do a slow schedule, they want to do something else.
[11:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then you have to talk about that.
[11:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You talk about what are the benefits of the certain diseases, what are the highest risk diseases, and try to help that family weigh out what may be more beneficial for them and help them to make that decision, or if they choose not to do vaccines, then you should explain to them what the risks are, what are the risks of the diseases, how likely what they get it,
[11:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: what public health implications that might have so that way they understand.
[11:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And if they choose not to do it, they choose not to do it.
[11:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's the way that we do everything else in medicine.
[11:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But for vaccines, it's very different because it's an emotionally charged topic and there are public health implications for it.
[11:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think our job as a doctor is not to make you have our opinion, it's to educate you to help you make a decision that makes sense for you and everyone's going to have different decisions based on what they feel like and everything has a risk.
[11:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you choose not to vaccinate, there's a risk.
[11:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you choose to vaccinate, there's a risk and I think we need to understand that.
[12:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What are some of the most common questions you hear from patients when they're
[12:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, by far, the most common question online or in the office is just tell me what to do.
[12:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I get that all the time.
[12:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was like, which vaccine should I do?
[12:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Which ones are most important?
[12:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And is hard because, you know, I really try not to answer that for people.
[12:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I try to help them way and not to tell them what to do.
[12:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And everybody just wants me to tell them what to do.
[12:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And, first of all, I would say it's extraordinarily arrogant of me if I was to say, oh, you know, you should follow the Dr. Joel schedule and not the CDC schedule.
[12:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, the CDC schedule, the schedules that have been studied for a long time, these are the things that a lot of smart people have looked at for a long time and have discussed and decided they feel like that's best for your kids.
[12:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Anything outside of that becomes personal choice, I can...
[12:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Explain to you what some of the concerns are that parents have but a lot of it doesn't necessarily even have the research to give you definitive answers so you have to
[13:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think decide what you feel like is best for your child at this time and what are the highest risks.
[13:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, we know that there are always measles outbreaks, right?
[13:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: measles could kill you.
[13:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's always will be cough outbreak.
[13:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I mean, those are 10 to be the ones that parents are gonna prioritize.
[13:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then there are things that we don't see as often, like polio, I mean, obviously nobody wants polio, but we haven't had that in a very long time.
[13:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're in a road of virus.
[13:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, there's a lot of discussion even just this last few weeks on the schedule and all these major changes.
[13:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: can argue how it was done and what was done but I think the ultimate goals of the changes are to kind of prioritize what we feel but they feel like is more important so that way there's kind of a better understanding as opposed to doing 18 diseases will focus on 10 or 11.
[13:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you can argue whether that's good or bad or whether that's right or wrong, but that was, I think, the general thought process behind these changes.
[13:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But it's extraordinarily confusing and frustrating for doctors and for parents.
[13:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it's by far the most confusing time when it comes to vaccines.
[14:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because you hear one thing from the CDC, one thing from HHS, one thing from American and Patrick's, one thing from your doctor, one thing from the social media influencer that you follow.
[14:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: A different thing from the other.
[14:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's just, I don't know how anybody can make a decision right now.
[14:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And vaccines that's so complicated.
[14:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, and all parents want is to do what's best for their child.
[14:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it's like that is such a...
[14:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There just seems to be like there's so much writing on that choice that, yeah, it's completely overwhelming.
[14:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I'm curious to know how you would recommend parents go about advocating for, I guess, themselves, their children without being dismissed or labeled as difficult.
[14:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Just any advice as a doctor yourself, or as a parent in yourself,
[14:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[14:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think you have to feel empowered as questions.
[14:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that's super important.
[14:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You should feel like you can talk to your doctor and ask some questions.
[14:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you have a concern, concern about a vaccine or concern about not getting a vaccine, you should be able to talk to your doctor about that.
[14:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And
[14:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, it's generally easier if you want to do the regular schedule, but if you want to do anything outside of that and you're at a practice where they're not Opened to that and not even open having a discussion, and that's probably not the best practice for you.
[15:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I can tell you as somebody who's open to having, I'll see anybody, I'm not going to dismiss people for not vaccinating.
[15:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There are plenty of people that have concerns that end up vaccinating when they have conversations when you talk it through.
[15:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I think it's really important to find a provider that is willing to have those conversations if that's important to you.
[15:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that either means you know if you're having a baby and and you're gonna go find a picture and like interview a few if you're at a practice and and you're like, ah, you know, I really I'm a little worried about x y and z and I really really like talk about and they're like, no, no, we're not gonna have you unless you go on the regular schedule and they won't.
[15:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: have that conversation with you, then it's okay to switch practices, like it's totally okay to find someone that is, you want someone you can have a communication and ongoing discussion with and ultimately that is often the thing that helps you to feel comparable to do it, because most doctors would tell you, like they haven't seen any horrible reactions, and I've been in practice for a long time.
[16:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, you certainly read about it, I've certainly had people come out with that swear by it, it certainly happens, but
[16:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think if you can have that kind of conversation and understand what the risks are, then sometimes parents are like, well, okay, and I really, I'm not so comfortable doing for it today, but I really want to get the measles shot.
[16:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So let's just do that one.
[16:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, and then you do that, and then it goes, okay, and then they're like, okay, well, okay, what's the next one you recommend?
[16:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you can kind of work your way through, and you're getting people
[16:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: to do it, maybe it's not on the CD's schedule, but they're still getting them done, and they're doing it in a way that's comfortable for them.
[16:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think if ever a time there was to be a little bit empathetic to parents on vaccines, it's right now, because this is so confusing.
[16:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I posted just, you know, on Instagram,
[16:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: maybe like a couple of weeks ago like you know I just feel so bad for parents right now to have to make these decisions because it's so complicated and confusing and everything you read is different and then they did super well because I think it just hit an earth which like I think parents just are confused and even if they feel like they know they don't and they're like well I want my kid to be healthy and I don't want to not give them a vaccine and then they get some disease and die or get really sick but I also don't want to give them a vaccine and them have a bad reaction and they read about
[17:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He's, you know, maybe they're rare, but they read about the kid that had a battery action and they're like, I don't want that.
[17:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So that's not unreasonable to question.
[17:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: operating from fear, if fear is never the best motivator, I think operating like you said from empowerment, from research, from asking questions, and then knowing that I think having the knowledge of like I am making the best choice with all of this, from being equipped in all these ways that I'm making the best choice possible.
[17:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I do think there's so much fear on both of the sides that we have to choose that it just, that's not helpful.
[17:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It plays into why you feel so bad for parents.
[17:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Cause it's like, oh, when we're afraid, we're just not rational.
[18:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[18:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And we're sitting here post-COVID where people don't trust anything.
[18:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, they just really don't trust the institutions.
[18:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They don't trust doctors.
[18:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They don't trust medicine.
[18:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The polls show that.
[18:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it was 70 plus percent before the pandemic now, it's under 40.
[18:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The majority of people are skeptical of vaccines.
[18:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They at least don't feel like they're going to do the full schedule or go on schedule.
[18:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's a really different than it used to be.
[18:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: People had a lot of
[18:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: with the mix messaging, the lie is really around in a public health in terms of stating, overstating the benefits in terms of stopping transmission, which they never really knew to be true to say that if you've got the disease, then you didn't have good immunity, you still need to get a vaccine, which doesn't really make any logical sense, and that's not really how it ever is.
[18:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: With diseases, you got a vaccine to protect you from getting a disease, but if you do happen to get the disease, then you have
[18:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: in general robust immunity.
[18:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you shouldn't necessarily need a vaccine, at least in the short term.
[18:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And those are all things that are pretty common sense basic public health stuff.
[19:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And we weren't told that.
[19:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We were told it was safe and and that messaging.
[19:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: can't beat true.
[19:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like you can't say something safe when you don't know.
[19:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, you know, you could say something like, we haven't seen any major safety signals yet.
[19:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It doesn't seem like there are any major risks.
[19:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But when something's new and has something out, you have no idea what it's going to do in five years.
[19:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, it's just the messaging around that wasn't wasn't great.
[19:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think everyone knows someone that had a reaction, or maybe you had one yourself, and then you start to look at these public health messaging and the lies and like, well, if they're lying to me about that, and this vaccine could cause these issues, what about all the rest of the vaccines?
[19:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so the natural next step is skepticism.
[19:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that's where we are right now.
[19:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Everyone's questioning everything.
[19:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then you just see a lot of fighting without a lot of, I feel like it's just not a lot of grown-ups in the room right now.
[19:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When it comes to vaccines in public health, and there's a lot of very divisive messages out there.
[19:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And like, American kind of metrics suing HHS.
[20:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So they're not like sitting down or room and talking about things.
[20:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They're just kind of going back and forth on a lot of these decisions.
[20:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And
[20:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So then it leaves parents to be like it was right, but what do I listen to?
[20:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What do I trust?
[20:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And they're mostly not educated in vaccines.
[20:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I'm super educated now in vaccines after ready to book it.
[20:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I still don't know the answers to any of these questions.
[20:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I don't know how parent would.
[20:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's it's just really complicated.
[20:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I feel bad for parents because I think, you know, we need some clear guidance and the guidance is the farthest from clear it's ever been.
[20:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think we also have the day-to-day pressure, not go literally day-to-day, but we have the pressure from moms in our circle that do trust everything that certain medical institutions put out and then we feel, again, even if we don't act on that pressure, we still feel like, oh, would they judge me if they knew?
[20:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It is an underlying pressure we don't necessarily need its mom and then we shouldn't put that on other moms either.
[21:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like we all going to make the decisions for our children that we think are best and I'm from believer in that.
[21:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But yeah, just not operating from a standpoint of fear, interactionity, but asking the questions that not being so polarized.
[21:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I do want to say here, we've been talking for 20 minutes about vaccines and I'm sorry that it is seemingly negative.
[21:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But what is your hope here?
[21:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And what does it look in a larger scale with everyone that's in residency
[21:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, on a positive sense, if you can take any one great thing, I would say, from what's going on with HHS and Secretary Kenny, the discussion about health vaccines, nutrition, all of these things are on the open.
[21:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're discussing these things like we've never before, and it's forcing the hands of everybody to actually have a discussion where as before even with vaccines was very censored, and you can agree or disagree with what he's doing, and many people do.
[21:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But you can't disagree that we're not talking about this more than we've ever talked about it before and I hope in a longer and that will be a good thing because I hope that if we do have discussion Then it'll move from the extremes to or something in the middle and people will eventually actually talk
[22:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And find where they agree and find where they disagree and actually be willing to listen to each other a little bit and be like, okay, well, here's the research that we have here's what we don't have.
[22:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is why I think we need this more research and maybe we go get that in the long run.
[22:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I think the younger generation of doctors.
[22:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: is hearing this, they understand that parents, well, they're in training and they've gone through COVID and everything, they have an understanding of the skepticism, and so they're more open having these discussions, whereas I think the very older generation of doctors is like, you know, you want to get, you want your kid to have a disease, you know, I don't want anything to do with you.
[22:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And there's not a lot of empathy towards the concerns that parents have.
[22:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I don't think we're going to move forward unless we address those concerns and we discussed them openly and we're honest about them and we are able to have conversations like this without people just chatting it off and calling you know antivax or someone crazy because you know people are sitting right now I'm sure there's people listening like oh I can't believe you want to in fact my kid you want people to get not back get vaccines.
[23:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Oh, you want you want to measles outbreak because no, no, I don't want that nobody wants that but not talking about doesn't stop that.
[23:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: right talking about concerns is where we can move to some some sort of middle ground.
[23:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't want anybody to get any disease but I also don't want someone to have a bad reaction from a vaccine and you should not dismiss those families either and it certainly happens and it's not someone that's an anti-vaxxer who gets a vaccine reaction and someone who went to get a vaccine.
[23:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When these concerns exist, we need to address them, and we need to talk about them, and we need to do that like grown-ups, and you can disagree.
[23:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You don't have to agree on what I say.
[23:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can totally disagree with everything that I say.
[23:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm not here to convince people to do something or not do something.
[23:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm trying to have conversations because if we can have conversations, we can move forward and you can disagree and hate what I say and that's fine.
[23:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm always open to changing my opinion based on information or data, but I can only present what I know and what I've seen and we haven't even been able to do that until recently and so again going back to like what's good about what's going on like all the stuff of the secret I'm able to talk about this without getting censored and that's good because we can have this conversation on a platform like this and you couldn't do that a year ago.
[24:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, just totally being taken down off of the social media.
[24:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I think we need this to kind of move forward to a more balanced place.
[24:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I hope that mandates get taken away.
[24:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that would be the first thing that would be really helpful in terms of decreasing the temperature.
[24:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think most people do vaccines.
[24:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They don't need a requirement.
[24:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You don't need a requirement for school.
[24:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There are many countries that don't have that.
[24:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Most of the states don't have a requirement.
[24:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Still most people get vaccinated.
[24:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think you would bring the temperature down a lot.
[24:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: In the vaccine world, if you just didn't force people to do something and then you could start from a place where no one's being forced to do it, but now how do we get the most information to make you feel the most comfortable to do the recommendations?
[24:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That to me would be the best long term solution.
[24:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Forcing people does improve things, you know, it doesn't prove uptake in the short term like we saw with COVID, but it doesn't work in the long term like no one's doing COVID shots anymore.
[25:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like 23% of people.
[25:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So clearly it does not work.
[25:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So education and data is what works in the long run.
[25:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: sure.
[25:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, and again, I am just open to having these conversations assessing the information presented to, I mean, this is not, this is a stepping stone to a larger exploration for people.
[25:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think if they like what you're saying or their interest is peaked or they have questions and concerns, it's like, yeah, this is a stepping stone to get to the next point, diving into your book is a great place, asking your doctor some of these questions, getting the actual the forms of the vaccines themselves and reading through it.
[25:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What is
[25:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I get to pamphlet if you want.
[25:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, I think it's good to see it.
[25:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like dense.
[25:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, it's not.
[25:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it's not overly helpful.
[25:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Then if you just kind of want to look at see what's in there.
[25:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I think you do need to educate and that's a weird thing.
[25:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because you would not necessarily want every parent have to educate on the medical topic.
[25:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You'd want them just to trust.
[26:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: the system, but given where we are right now, I do think you need to read things and I think you need to read multiple things not, my book or whatever you want to read my book great.
[26:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I think you need to read multiple things like something that's very CDC perspective and maybe something that has some other questions that way you can understand the landscape so you can make some educated decisions because I would think most people are super confused or like, why are we even having these discussions?
[26:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think there is a lot there.
[26:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: that people are concerned about and so unless you do read a little bit and get educated if you're trying to make these decisions, then you're not going to even know the landscape of what's going on and why people are even fighting about this.
[26:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then once you do, then you can at least have some more education around those decisions and you can have, I think, better questions when you go to your doctor.
[26:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Mm-hmm.
[26:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[26:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: With you say that that's the step then and taking that first initial step, like a gentle step forward and pursuing some more information is that what you would encourage listeners to do just seek out something outside of this podcast and what you're encouragement here.
[27:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, my encouragement is if you have questions about vaccines, if you're questioning it, if you want to become more educated, you have to go and do that.
[27:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can't, you're not going to get on the news.
[27:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You know, I do the news all the time, and it's really dumb.
[27:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you talk for like 35 seconds, maybe a minute, you can't say anything.
[27:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you can't get into a nuanced discussion that you would need to have.
[27:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They ask you like some big question, like, oh, I see we're taking up a B vaccine.
[27:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Is that good or bad?
[27:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's like, you need an hour to talk about that, just to stretch the surface.
[27:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think reading a book or two is really helpful and listening to long-quarmed discussions, a few of them like this are really helpful so that way you can get the landscape and then you have an idea of what's going on and then you can ask educated questions or kind of see where you fall.
[27:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And you may just fall in.
[27:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I wanted the CDC's scheduler, you know, the American Academy's schedule.
[27:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But even that's complicated now because the CDC's schedule just changed.
[27:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So which schedule do you follow?
[27:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like it's it's so hard to to navigate because it's
[28:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, well, it's my hope that conversations like this peak people's interest and cause further exploration to making this even a wider topic of discussion for people.
[28:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I appreciate you joining me today, but where can listeners grab a copy of your book if they want to dive deeper and or hear more from you?
[28:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Awesome.
[28:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, thank you for having me on.
[28:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you for willing to talk about this because I know it's always interesting and controversial, but hopefully people getting something from that.
[28:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So yeah, my easiest place to find me on Instagram or X at Dr. Joel Gator, the book is between a shot and a hard place.
[28:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: you can find on amazon or you know you where you get books or the shopbook.com and then my sub-stack also called between a shot in the hard place is a great resource too with lots of information and I write pretty much every day which it's really interesting to see because that has exploded and there's almost 100,000 people on it now it's one of the
[28:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: highest ranking subsets, and I would have never imagined that, but it just shows me how interested people are in talking about or listening and learning about this because there's just not a lot of resources out there about vaccines.
[29:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's it's it's it's really interesting time.
[29:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, no, absolutely.
[29:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, be sure to include all that in the show notes, but quickly as we wrap things up, these are just the final two rapid fire questions I ask all my guests.
[29:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't know if you're familiar with them from last time, but the first one is what's been a beneficial resource in your life that you want to share with the listeners?
[29:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: beneficial resource.
[29:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, I think, you know, for me, it's always been my, my family and friends.
[29:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that sometimes we, we forget that the people that care about us most are beneficial resource.
[29:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I think just talking to those trusted individuals when you're second guessing yourself, especially with like parenting questions can be really, really helpful.
[29:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You used to be pretty obvious and grandma was there and just asked her.
[29:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But everyone's so separate now.
[29:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But, you know, trust your trusted resources, they care about you the most in general.
[29:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, so very true.
[29:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Last question for you is what is something that you
[29:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, right now it's vaccines, but I never imagined that I would not be able to stop talking, but I think the other thing is just nutrition, making sure we're eating healthy food.
[30:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Again, that's, you know, a whole big topic we didn't even get in there, but the food, you know, the pyramid changes and the new food pyramid, I think that it's so important.
[30:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We talk about real healthy food and real food, decreasing sugar.
[30:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[30:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'll be sure to link that previous episode you and I did it was you are responsible for your children's health raising a healthy child with integrative pediatrics and we did touch on a lot of that just again blending kind of a western and eastern approach here when it comes to medicine and just looking holistically as opposed to just following some steps that someone has put into place for us.
[30:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'll be sure to link that in the show notes, but
[30:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Again, Joel, thank you so much for joining me today being willing to have these conversations on a larger scale.
[30:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I will say I think it is a brave thing to do because you are going against the grain of how we've been programmed as a society, so I appreciate you being willing to do it.
[30:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you so much.
[31:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What did you think of the episode?
[31:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
[31:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: To learn more about today's guest, including links, resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at minimalismomspodcast.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as my book Minimalismoms Living and Parenting with Simplicity, or other ways to connect or work with me online.
[31:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do, is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave a rating or review of your favorite episode.
[31:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends and social media is very helpful and will encourage others on their journey to think more and do with plus.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.