# The Case for Stepping Back: Raising Kids Who Don’t Need You for Everything | Jenna Michael (EP448)

An episode of [Minimalist Moms Podcast | Purposeful Life & Parenting Tips](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1159498258), 27 Apr 2026, 34 min.

Audio: https://prefix.up.audio/s/pdst.fm/e/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/mgln.ai/e/35/audio2.redcircle.com/episodes/7c950355-5941-4c7f-a488-9bdd42484513/stream.mp3

What if raising independent kids actually made life easier - for everyone? Today I’m joined by Jenna Michael, author of Let’s Choose Less and the children’s book We Can Help, for a conversation about simplifying family life by inviting our kids into it. Jenna’s work centers around one powerful idea: children are more capable than we often give them credit for. And when we allow them to participate - really participate - in the rhythms of daily life, we’re not only building their confidence and life skills… we’re also creating a more sustainable, connected home. We talk about why parents tend to step in too quickly (hint: time pressure and perfectionism), how to thoughtfully hand over responsibility, and what it looks like to balance independence with a strong sense of safety and attachment. Links Discussed in This Episode | • Checkout the podcast storefront for recommendations from Diane. • Subscribe to the Minimalist Moms Youtube Channel • Diane's Resource: \[REPLAY\] Love People, Use Things | The Minimalists • Previous Episode: Let’s Choose Less: Simplifying Life with Young Kids | Jenna Michael (EP389) • Jenna Can't Stop Talking About: Homemade Candles • Connect with Jenna: • Website • Instagram • Substack • Book: Let's Choose Less: A Young Family's Guide to Simply Living • Book: We Can Help About Jenna| Jenna Michael is a wife, mother, author, and coach specializing in simplified and intentional living for families. Her writing covers topics such as family-friendly activities and events, wellness, travel, gifts, and essential parenting tips. Her coaching helps moms turn these valuable insights into practical action, reduce clutter and chaos, and ultimately pursue a life of purpose on purpose. In her free time, you can find her at the gym, curled up with a book, or enjoying the outdoors. Episode Sponsors | The Minimalist Moms Podcast would not be possible without the support of weekly sponsors. Choosing brands that I believe in is important to me. I only want to recommend brands that I believe may help you in your daily life. As always, never feel pressured into buying anything. Remember: if you don't need it, it's not a good deal! Enjoy the Podcast? Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning into this podcast, then do not hesitate to write a review. You can also share this with your fellow mothers so that they can be inspired to think more and do with less. Order (or review) my book, Minimalist Moms: Living & Parenting With Simplicity. You can contact me through my website, find me on Instagram, Pinterest or like The Minimalist Moms Page on Facebook. Our Sponsors: * Check out BetterHelp and use my code betterhelp.com for a great deal: https://www.betterhelp.com * Check out Cure Hydration and use my code MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://www.curehydration.com * Check out DeleteMe and use my code joindeleteme.com/MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://joindeleteme.com * Check out Wayfair: https://www.wayfair.com Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

## Transcript

[0:00] \[SPEAKER_02\]: One time, my mentor described children as being like a house as they grow and so when they're young, that's when you're digging out and pouring the foundation and then as they get a little bit older than you add things like framing and
[0:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: the outside walls and the windows and then you get to the details and you decorate the living room and whatever else as they get older.
[0:22] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so to me, I'm looking at this age group and I'm saying, this is my foundation that I want my children to have, you know, how am I going to go about doing that?
[0:31] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And it is most certainly not easy.
[0:33] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But this is where our value systems are forms.
[0:36] \[SPEAKER_02\]: This is where a lot of our habits are formed.
[0:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: This is where core memories are formed.
[0:40] \[SPEAKER_02\]: You know, like there are a lot of things that happen in this age group.
[0:44] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so it's really important to be able to remember that it's just a season, but whatever this season, it will lay your foundation for your children later on.
[0:54] \[SPEAKER_04\]: This is Diane Bowden, and you're listening to the minimalist moms podcast.
[0:58] \[SPEAKER_04\]: What if raising independent kids actually made life easier for everyone?
[1:03] \[SPEAKER_04\]: In today's episode, I'm joined by author and intentional parenting advocate, Jenna Michael, to talk about fostering independence and arch children without sacrificing connection.
[1:12] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Inspired by her children's book, We Can Help, and her family's journey towards simpler living, Jenna shares how giving kids real responsibility not only supports third-of-element, but also eases the mental loads so many parents carry.
[1:25] \[SPEAKER_04\]: We talk about why we often step into quickly,
[1:27] \[SPEAKER_04\]: how to balance autonomy with secure attachment and simple age-appropriate ways kids can begin contributing at home.
[1:34] \[SPEAKER_04\]: If you're craving a more capable, connected, and calm family rhythm, this conversation is for you.
[1:39] \[SPEAKER_04\]: But quickly before we get there, I want to share a minimalist resource with all of you.
[1:43] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Last week, I re-released episode 180, my first conversation with the minimalist, and I had the opportunity to relisten as I was walking my dog.
[1:52] \[SPEAKER_04\]: And I just think it's funny how
[1:55] \[SPEAKER_04\]: We'll take an information years ago, or information that we've heard more than once, but for whatever reason, we'll take in the messages of that information differently, depending on what season we are in life.
[2:07] \[SPEAKER_04\]: I'm sure that most of you intuitively understand this, but some of the takeaways I had after listening to this episode now versus when I released it a few years back are just radically different.
[2:17] \[SPEAKER_04\]: And so I guess outside of the plug to go back and re-listen to that episode, my encouragement is what is something beneficial that could be worth revisiting now.
[2:25] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Are you in a different season in motherhood or maybe a different season in your career or relationship?
[2:30] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Do you have young kids?
[2:31] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Are your kids now out of the house?
[2:33] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Revisiting something that was once valuable to us in a different season of life is an interesting exercise to see how you've grown, how you've remained the same, where you may still need to grow.
[2:43] \[SPEAKER_04\]: And again, I think we all understand that's on a basic level, but it's in these moments as I'm walking my dog, listening to this thing I personally recorded years ago.
[2:52] \[SPEAKER_04\]: having it really convict me years later, it's just a cool thing to experience.
[2:56] \[SPEAKER_04\]: So I will be sure to link that episode in the show notes.
[2:58] \[SPEAKER_04\]: In my challenge to you is to revisit a book, a documentary, a podcast, anything that could prompt new self-discovery in your current season of life.
[3:07] \[SPEAKER_04\]: And then lastly, before we get into this conversation with Jenna, I would love for you to leave a rating and review for the show if you have not done so yet.
[3:14] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Hit five stars, tell me your favorite guest, how the podcast has been impactful to you.
[3:18] \[SPEAKER_04\]: We are at 988 reviews, 12 away from hitting a thousand.
[3:22] \[SPEAKER_04\]: I really hope to hit that before the end of the year, but at this point, I think we could do it by summer.
[3:27] \[SPEAKER_04\]: So for those of you that have been here for a while now and have yet to do that, I appreciate you taking 30 seconds or less to do so.
[3:34] \[SPEAKER_04\]: And with that, let's get into this conversation with Jenna Michael.
[3:40] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Okay, Jenna.
[3:41] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So we're going to be talking about your book.
[3:44] \[SPEAKER_05\]: You wrote a children's book on top of the book that you're here to speak about last year.
[3:48] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Tell me the name of the book again.
[3:49] \[SPEAKER_05\]: The book is called We Can Help them.
[3:51] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Okay.
[3:52] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So what made you decide to write a second book
[3:57] \[SPEAKER_02\]: My kids wanted me to, honestly, they really wanted a book that was for them because I wrote a book for adults and they were kept asking, well, where's the book for kids?
[4:08] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so the book is very loosely based off of them and the characters, the illustrations actually look like them as well.
[4:17] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[4:18] \[SPEAKER_05\]: The topic that we're going to be discussing today is encouraging independence and autonomy and young kids.
[4:27] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I'm all for this topic.
[4:28] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I can't wait to pick your brain a little bit.
[4:30] \[SPEAKER_05\]: That is a theme that was woven into the children's story that you wrote.
[4:34] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Again, kind of going back to the origin and idea behind it.
[4:39] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Why did you want that to be a major theme?
[4:42] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I think that we are holding our kids back when it comes to independence right now.
[4:50] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so my idea was starting with the kids and doing it in a children's book and then hopefully allowing for the parents and the kids to have a conversation based off of the characters and the things that the children and the book are doing that maybe could translate to what kids could do in real life.
[5:09] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[5:10] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And you're someone that speaks to with purposeful parenting as your platform right?
[5:14] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Right.
[5:15] \[SPEAKER_05\]: What your first book was, let's choose less a young family's guide to simply living.
[5:20] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And so you really do try and hone in on the younger ones and how important in pivotal addressing some of these things can be for the entire family rhythm.
[5:27] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So I guess out of the gate, why would you say it's so important to foster independence at a young age for the overall health and wellness of the family?
[5:37] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Okay, bear with me for a second.
[5:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So when I went to college, I went with several friends that I knew from home and there was one in particular who I'm not going to say whether is a male or female, but that person could not do their laundry, so they were spraying their clothes with fibries in their college dorm in between taking trips home to see their parents to have their laundry done.
[6:02] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And it blew my mind because I'm like, come on, like, I've been doing my laundry for so long.
[6:07] \[SPEAKER_02\]: How do you not know how to do laundry?
[6:09] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so when my kids started asking to do things for themselves, I don't know why, but for whatever reason, this individual keeps coming up because I want my kids to be able to go away from me and feel capable.
[6:21] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And the thing is is that the earlier that we start those things, the longer we have to make sure that they know how to do it well and to build their confidence.
[6:29] \[SPEAKER_02\]: into some of those things, and then also developmentally, it's very appropriate for kids to take responsibility from an early age.
[6:37] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It's just that we've been conditioned in our current society to think that we're supposed to shield them from responsibility based off of just how things are currently.
[6:47] \[SPEAKER_05\]: You mentioned how you want them to feel confident that they can do this as they get older, as they go out on their own.
[6:55] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And I will say, I was not someone that had many childhood chores.
[6:58] \[SPEAKER_05\]: My mom did take a lot of that responsibility on her own, which that will lead to here into my next question.
[7:07] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But all that to say,
[7:08] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I always did have a desire to figure it out.
[7:11] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I wasn't the person that was sprang for a breeze on my clothes.
[7:14] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Like, I just kind of figured it out.
[7:16] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And so I think there is also...
[7:19] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I think fostering independence even in other areas can bleed over into the household chores and those kind of things.
[7:25] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So I do want to say that, but also, I think for a lot of parents, yeah, they want to step into quickly.
[7:31] \[SPEAKER_05\]: They want to resolve the conflicts.
[7:34] \[SPEAKER_05\]: They want to help get the breakfast ready, feel on the blank.
[7:38] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Why do you think parents do step into soon?
[7:42] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Well, for one, I think we're just in a huge rush.
[7:45] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It's completely inconvenient to let kids take their time and do it, right?
[7:49] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I mean, watching a toddler put their shoes on and waiting and waiting and waiting can be so inconvenient.
[7:56] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But the sooner that your toddler knows how to master putting their shoes on, the faster that they're going to be able to do it.
[8:02] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Same with buckling them into their car seats, right?
[8:04] \[SPEAKER_02\]: The sooner that we can,
[8:05] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And when you have multiple kids, that's a huge thing, right?
[8:08] \[SPEAKER_02\]: When you have a kid that can buckle themselves in and you only have to do like a quick double check versus having to sit down and buckle every single person every single time.
[8:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I think from that perspective, we're really busy.
[8:20] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And this is a huge lesson for us in adults and just slowing down.
[8:24] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Kids are always teaching us something whether we realize it or not.
[8:27] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And then the other thing too is we want it to be done perfectly because we are so conditioned by whether it's a magazine article or social media or whatever you want to call it right like our home is supposed to look a certain way or kids shoes are supposed to be tied correctly, their outfits are supposed to match whatever it is.
[8:44] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Pick your example.
[8:45] \[SPEAKER_02\]: We are very image driven and this could potentially disrupt the image that we're trying to portray.
[8:52] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, absolutely absolutely well, and I think the reason this matters when we're thinking about living a minimalist or an intentional lifestyle It because it minimizes the time we're actually spending on things that are unnecessary if we outsource those things even like you said to a toddler that can eventually put on their shoes We're removing that over involvement piece so that they can have that ownership
[9:18] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah, it's a little less responsibility on your mental load.
[9:22] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And I mean, I know it sounds so simple, but even something like, can you hang your coat up on your hook?
[9:27] \[SPEAKER_02\]: That's one less thing that you have to pick up and put away, because particularly as moms, we're such stuff managers, we're just moving everybody's stuff from one place to another.
[9:37] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And this gives us the opportunity to allow our kids to manage some of that stuff for us.
[9:43] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[9:45] \[SPEAKER_05\]: You've obviously, well, maybe I shouldn't speak for you.
[9:48] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Have you always lived this way with your, you have two kids, right?
[9:52] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I have four.
[9:53] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Be a four.
[9:54] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Oh, yeah.
[9:55] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I thought you had four, but then your book only has two kids on it.
[9:58] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I didn't know how to write a book with four kids in there.
[10:02] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But two worked really well.
[10:04] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So the girl, the girl character actually has elements of all three of my daughters and then the little boy looks just like my son.
[10:10] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Okay, cool.
[10:11] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Well, let me go back and say this then.
[10:12] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I'm assuming that you have always practiced this way of parenting or I can't remember from our first conversation.
[10:20] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Was this something you saw a need and so you ended up pursuing minimalism?
[10:23] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I can't
[10:24] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yes.
[10:25] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I came to minimalism and essentialism after having had my second child.
[10:32] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And it was because we were drowning in baby stuff.
[10:36] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And the more kids that I had, the less bandwidth I had to make everything perfect.
[10:42] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So in some ways it came out of just necessity and then other ways it came out of intentionality and reading and researching and learning at developmental patterns and seeing what it was that was age appropriate and then also to be completely honest it was very child driven as well.
[10:59] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I feel like you know when you have a two year old that's like no I do it.
[11:04] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And you're like, no, I do it.
[11:06] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Instead, I was like, I'm too tired.
[11:08] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I figured out.
[11:09] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so I started seeing these patterns happen.
[11:12] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And all of a sudden, I'm like, wait, I didn't have to get you dressed this morning.
[11:15] \[SPEAKER_02\]: You got dressed.
[11:17] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It doesn't matter that you're out, but it doesn't match.
[11:19] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It's nice that I didn't have to sit down and take care of that in that moment.
[11:23] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So it was necessity driven as well.
[11:25] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So you,
[11:27] \[SPEAKER_05\]: after you had those second two.
[11:30] \[SPEAKER_05\]: This was something that you had well established in a sense in your home.
[11:33] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So I'm curious to know what are some age appropriate ways that parents can begin encouraging independence in the younger children without it turning into pure chaos.
[11:43] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Again, I think there's going to be a learning curve here for most people.
[11:46] \[SPEAKER_05\]: To this day, my six year old will often today.
[11:49] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I had to yell at the window at school dropout.
[11:51] \[SPEAKER_05\]: you have your shoes on the wrong feet.
[11:52] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I don't know why we can't get it together and it's still something that we're learning, but at least he's attempting to put a shoes on.
[11:58] \[SPEAKER_05\]: He should, he should buy sex for sure.
[12:00] \[SPEAKER_02\]: You know, at some point he probably would have noticed throughout the day.
[12:03] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And if he did think I'm, I mean, you know, I think he did care, I just don't think he cares.
[12:08] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like how we're just turning backwards, too.
[12:10] \[SPEAKER_02\]: He does not care.
[12:11] \[SPEAKER_02\]: My kids wear their clothes backwards all the time and sometimes it's on purpose.
[12:14] \[SPEAKER_02\]: They're like, no, I like this side better.
[12:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah.
[12:17] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so when they're younger, yes, chaos comes with this, right?
[12:22] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Sure.
[12:22] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Whether it's shoes or carrying their own backpacks or carrying, even a bag of groceries in from the car, right?
[12:30] \[SPEAKER_02\]: That's something that's really important is learning how to do things when the family is doing things.
[12:35] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It requires patients or requires slowing down, it requires
[12:40] \[SPEAKER_02\]: in a mindset in the parents that we might not always be prepared to offer, as they get older, things can get more elaborate in their responsibility, whether you have a pet, maybe it's caregiving for the pet.
[12:55] \[SPEAKER_02\]: For us, a lot of it starts with
[12:58] \[SPEAKER_02\]: They're clothing, whether it's taking care of their own laundry, helping with the laundry.
[13:03] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I have two kids currently that are age 7 and 9 that both do their own laundry at this point.
[13:08] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It could be even something as simple laundry-wise as putting on their own shoes or putting their shoes away, hanging up a coat.
[13:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: We also, a big area for us is in the kitchen.
[13:19] \[SPEAKER_02\]: We ask our kids to help them the kitchen a lot, whether it's, I mean, we had toddlers who could hardly walk and they were helping unload their own dishes from the dishwasher because we would have the kid dishes really close to the dishwasher and they could kind of scoot them over and so.
[13:36] \[SPEAKER_02\]: You know, it's something like unloading the dishwasher or carrying their platter of at the end of a meal, helping load the dishwasher and then helping cook from a very early age, just stick them on a chair or on the kitchen counter and let them stir.
[13:49] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It'll likely make a mess, but you know, having them get that little bit of responsibility is huge.
[13:56] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[13:57] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I maybe I've mentioned this on the podcast before.
[13:59] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So sorry for redundancy.
[14:01] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I wasn't sharing the same story.
[14:03] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But for my children, we will go to the library.
[14:06] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Then my kids will ask me for a certain book and I always tell them I'm like, go up to the library and like ask them the question yourself.
[14:12] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I watch and I monitor.
[14:13] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But even my five, six-year-old, I would always have him do that and just give them again, authority over what they're looking for, what they're seeking out, but that confidence
[14:24] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But even if we go to a coffee house, sometimes I'll have my kids go up and buy their own cookie and it's just getting them comfortable in those conversations.
[14:31] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But I do think there's a handful of people listening that think that maybe we're emotionally abandoning our kids by giving them too much autonomy or too much independence at a young age.
[14:40] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So how would you say
[14:41] \[SPEAKER_05\]: we balance the connection piece with that secure attachment piece.
[14:47] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Does it make sense?
[14:47] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah, that's a brilliant question.
[14:49] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I love that because I think that that line can be really fragile if we let it be.
[14:55] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And part of it is I will always always always say I'm right here.
[15:00] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm always reiterating, I'm right here, and I believe in you, right?
[15:04] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So a little struggle is not a bad thing for a kid.
[15:07] \[SPEAKER_02\]: A lot of struggle, we can, we can draw that line.
[15:11] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And we have to know our child well enough to know when we cross that line.
[15:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And a lot of it is our kids will tell us when they're comfortable with something.
[15:22] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I had to do a UPS return recently
[15:30] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And I'm like, okay, are you sure?
[15:32] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And she was like, yeah, give me your phone, give me the code, give me the package, and I want you to stand outside.
[15:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And I was like, okay, so I stood outside the UPS store.
[15:41] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I was visible in the window.
[15:43] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I could see her the whole time, but she wanted to go in.
[15:45] \[SPEAKER_02\]: She wanted to do the little return, and she did it.
[15:48] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And she handled it fine.
[15:49] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And as a homeschool parent, because that have that layer in as well, when people ask like, what are you doing?
[15:55] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Just socialize your kids, which I think that question is like,
[15:58] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Probably one of the number one asked question of her parents.
[16:02] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I think that those moments are so valuable because we're offering our children the ability to socialize.
[16:10] \[SPEAKER_02\]: in a way that is applicable to normal every day life, right?
[16:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like asking the librarian, I think that's huge.
[16:18] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Being able to order for yourself at a restaurant, being able to say, you know, thank you or may I please, or kind of hold the door for you, you know, being able to interact with other adults.
[16:28] \[SPEAKER_02\]: That's part of responsibility.
[16:30] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And going back to the original question, you're right there.
[16:33] \[SPEAKER_02\]: You're not just letting them, and I know, you know, some examples and some people take things really,
[16:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: you know, to all kinds of levels like taking the subway by themselves in New York and not kind of stuff.
[16:44] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm not there.
[16:44] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm not that kind of a parent.
[16:46] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Kudos to you, you know, if you are in your listening.
[16:49] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah.
[16:50] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But for me, the emotional attachment portion is I'm there and my kids will tell me where my boundary is and I will agree whether that's a good one or not.
[17:06] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, I think a lot of autonomy building does create discomfort in us.
[17:09] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Again, and I think things are age appropriate.
[17:12] \[SPEAKER_05\]: We loosen the reins in an age appropriate manner, but also all children are different too.
[17:19] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And so with their certain things that I let my oldest do, that I wouldn't have let my middle do it, even at the age that I let her do it.
[17:25] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And so I do, I think we have to use some discernment and get be okay with some discomfort too as well.
[17:31] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But I guess what word of encouragement
[17:36] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Like, they do feel that frustration, even though it's a long-term investment in their children being able to be little helpers in the family, like, what, I guess, again, sort of a encouragement that you have for them.
[17:46] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I mean, I think more than anything, I would say that is not easy, right?
[17:50] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like the easy path is to say, I'll just take care of it.
[17:53] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah.
[17:54] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'll just let me do the laundry.
[17:55] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It's the same idea I talk about a lot is working out during that time, right?
[18:01] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So many moms use nap time as a time to exercise into read, into relax.
[18:07] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And the thing is, is that our kids in that time span don't see us doing those things, or we do it when they're not around.
[18:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Well, maybe frustrating to us, we're building such a strong foundation in them and modeling behavior and allowing them to be able to speak up and advocate for themselves because if we don't hear them when they're saying, no, I want to try, they might not ask.
[18:33] \[SPEAKER_02\]: next time.
[18:34] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I would say it's just really hard.
[18:37] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like everybody feels that.
[18:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I feel that all the time.
[18:39] \[SPEAKER_02\]: We were cooking this week and it was like flower had exploded all over our kitchen and it's so stressful for me.
[18:48] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But like,
[18:49] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Then the pride on my kids' faces of like, thank you for letting me help you, is worth it.
[18:54] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so there are benefits to it if you can just get through the challenge and the hard and the mess and fight through your own impatience and perfectionism.
[19:05] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I don't know.
[19:06] \[SPEAKER_02\]: What would you say?
[19:06] \[SPEAKER_02\]: What's something that you would offer?
[19:08] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah.
[19:09] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Well, I'm thinking there have been times where it's more of an efficiency.
[19:14] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I am really controlling and I just want things done.
[19:17] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I am doing a lot.
[19:18] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So I need to make sure that they're just done and again, efficiently.
[19:21] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So I don't have to come back and redo it.
[19:23] \[SPEAKER_05\]: However, I have in regards to loading the dishwasher.
[19:26] \[SPEAKER_05\]: We have loaded it.
[19:29] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Not in a way that I would have done it necessarily and then I come back and I show them like see how this cup was flipped upside down and all that waters in it like letting them see for themselves why we don't do it that way and maybe that's just because I'm a visual learner and I I actually am the kind of learner that needs to make the mistake sometimes sometimes I learned by the tough lessons.
[19:47] \[SPEAKER_05\]: even shrinking a shirt or washing whites with the shirt.
[19:51] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Like if you have something that you can just allow like let go of it as a teaching experience, I mean, again, that might not be the most pleasant or normal way to do this, but I think just showing the natural consequence of when we don't do things right, that could be, again, not with everything.
[20:08] \[SPEAKER_05\]: These are just a few examples.
[20:10] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah, no, I think that's a huge, that's a huge one because every opportunity is a learning lesson, whether it's for you or your kids or both of you, right?
[20:18] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like, I'm learning how to be a better parent.
[20:20] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm learning how to let go of control or I'm learning how to know that the laundry is most certainly not going to be folded right, but at the same time, they're learning how to figure it out for themselves.
[20:30] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So learning lessons for everybody.
[20:32] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, I mean, even if you, which I actually do, that's my voice at this point, are truly just living out of the hamper, which is fine, because they, at least they're getting themselves ready and it's just very convenient.
[20:42] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But the clothes are a little bit more wrinkly.
[20:45] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So they see my clothes that aren't, they're hung up.
[20:47] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And it's just like, hey, look at the contrast here, if we put those in your drawers, if we put those in your cabinet, they wouldn't be as wrinkly.
[20:54] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I'm also thinking, even if you're outside gardening, if you're putting the bulb,
[20:58] \[SPEAKER_05\]: low enough to where it can start to sprout roots versus some of the bulbs are seeded.
[21:02] \[SPEAKER_05\]: They're too high.
[21:03] \[SPEAKER_05\]: They're not going to actually start to grow and that could be a visual.
[21:06] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I think there again are circumstances in which you can do this show the inverse of what you'd actually want without it being that big of a deal.
[21:13] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But yeah, everything is a learning experience.
[21:16] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I remember I don't even want to say how old I was when I put dish soap in the dishwasher.
[21:20] \[SPEAKER_05\]: No, I feel like a lot of us have done that and there's sides all of the floor and actually the I was baby sitting when this happened and I was like, oh my gosh So again didn't make that mistake again, but I guess I'm just a trial and error parent do which
[21:39] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I keep saying that.
[21:40] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And I know that some parents are like, you can't do that with everything because you might not come back from some of these things like that are trial and error.
[21:46] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I guess now we're talking about crossing the street without looking and getting hit by a car.
[21:50] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Like you can't come back from that.
[21:51] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But we're talking about like the low hanging fruit in the house.
[21:54] \[SPEAKER_05\]: How kids are helping us.
[21:55] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a threshold for safety, right?
[21:58] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like, what I give my four-year-old a butcher knife, absolutely not.
[22:01] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But does he have a kid saves money?
[22:03] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like, yeah, he does great with it.
[22:05] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah.
[22:05] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And we're learning knife safety, but it's like a safe.
[22:09] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It's not.
[22:10] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I would say going back to your illustration on bulbs and planting.
[22:15] \[SPEAKER_02\]: For me, I think one of the reasons why I find this age to be so
[22:20] \[SPEAKER_02\]: focus oriented for me is one time my mentor described children as being like a house as they grow and so when they're young that's when you're digging out and pouring the foundation and then as they get a little bit older than you add things like framing and
[22:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: The outside walls and the windows and then you get to the details and you decorate the living room and whatever else as they get older.
[22:45] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so to me, I'm looking at this age group and I'm saying this is my foundation that I want my children to have.
[22:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[22:52] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm going to go about doing that.
[22:54] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And it is most certainly not easy.
[22:56] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But this is where our value systems are forms.
[22:59] \[SPEAKER_02\]: This is where a lot of our habits are formed.
[23:01] \[SPEAKER_02\]: This is where core memories are formed.
[23:03] \[SPEAKER_02\]: You know, there are a lot of things that happen in this age group.
[23:06] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so it's really important to be able to remember that it's just a season.
[23:12] \[SPEAKER_02\]: But whatever this season, it will lay your foundation for your children later on.
[23:17] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So that even if they go to college and they don't know how to do their laundry, they at least can figure it out and they don't have to just use fabrics.
[23:25] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah.
[23:27] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yes, I love the full circle back to the for me.
[23:29] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I will say, how old is your oldest now?
[23:31] \[SPEAKER_02\]: She's nine.
[23:32] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Oh, I'm not like 27.
[23:34] \[SPEAKER_02\]: If I'm honest.
[23:35] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah.
[23:36] \[SPEAKER_05\]: No, my oldest is like that too.
[23:37] \[SPEAKER_05\]: She's 11.
[23:38] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I feel the same way.
[23:39] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But have you seen the fruit of having given her this autonomy, this independence from a younger age to now?
[23:46] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Have you seen other life skills?
[23:48] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Again, she's nine.
[23:49] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But have you seen other life skills that you're like, oh, yeah, I think this is because of this.
[23:53] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah, immensely.
[23:54] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I actually am a month removed from foot surgery while we're talking.
[23:59] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And in another month, I will be having another surgery on my other foot.
[24:03] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So my husband could take some time off for work, but I have been extremely reliant on my children in this season versus my
[24:16] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So my older kids in particular have really stepped into a caregiving role for me and a way that I never anticipated, but it's been beautiful for it to be able to see from their independence.
[24:29] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Because it hasn't freaked them out.
[24:31] \[SPEAKER_02\]: They haven't panicked.
[24:32] \[SPEAKER_02\]: They understand that I'm still me.
[24:34] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I just eminent little bit of a different condition.
[24:37] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah.
[24:37] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And it's given them the opportunity to do things like, Mom, I got lunch.
[24:41] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'll make it.
[24:42] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Don't worry about it.
[24:43] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And they figure out how to make their the whole family like peanut butter sandwiches for lunch, right?
[24:48] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Or they're going to take care of the dishes or I'm like trying to carry a laundry basket.
[24:53] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I couldn't walk for a while.
[24:56] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I was like trying to stay up with laundry and those kinds of things and like, Mom, I got it.
[25:00] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I got it.
[25:00] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I can I can help with this.
[25:02] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so it's been
[25:07] \[SPEAKER_02\]: which is not something that you ever want to have your child do but it's given them a lot of reason to be more independent.
[25:15] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[25:16] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Again, just kind of the natural just something natural occurrence of how you're already behaving.
[25:21] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I totally agree.
[25:22] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And then the other part of it is that as a home school family, they've taken on some of their siblings' schoolwork which has been really cool to see because I am the primary educator and our family and I'd be like,
[25:36] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm coming.
[25:36] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I can't help.
[25:37] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm like trying to use my knee scooter or whatever to get to where you are.
[25:40] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And I get there and somebody else will have already gotten up and been like, I got it.
[25:45] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I can help with them.
[25:46] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I can do this.
[25:47] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so they've like created this almost co-schooling environment, which has been really neat to be able to rely on each other and just not what I was anticipating from this at all.
[25:57] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So it's been a great learning experience for all of us, including myself,
[26:05] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I'm sure they love that, too.
[26:07] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I know in my middle, I mean, I want to say it was when he was barely able to read, he was starting to
[26:14] \[SPEAKER_05\]: read or help out our youngest with little math books and I don't know.
[26:18] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I just think that he felt like such a little grown-up when he was doing those things.
[26:22] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So it's just it's so fun to see.
[26:24] \[SPEAKER_05\]: They do light up and I think that they do just feel yeah they feel in control and yet again we are monitoring from the side.
[26:31] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So I think that we have to we need to take comfort in that.
[26:34] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Our pastor recently talked about how the best way to be able to understand something is to
[26:41] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah.
[26:42] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so I feel like that dynamic is what we're getting at here with even something like co-schooling or whether it's cooking in the kitchen or whatever it is like being able to let the kids teach each other gives them that responsibility and autonomy that we're focusing on while also emphasizing it in their own minds and their own.
[27:06] \[SPEAKER_02\]: responsibility.
[27:08] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I guess what I mean is that it refines us as well, because especially for people that really want control, I really want control.
[27:16] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And so allowing it to allowing myself to let go and to pass those things off, it is refining me to say it's like a lack of them.
[27:28] \[SPEAKER_05\]: It just keeps me from being too proud and to say that I have all the pride that I'm doing this on my own, I can manage it.
[27:33] \[SPEAKER_05\]: It just is something that's really good for my individual personality.
[27:36] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And I'm sure that a lot of moms can relate to that as well.
[27:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah, me too.
[27:39] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Big time.
[27:40] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Big time.
[27:41] \[SPEAKER_05\]: All right, well, did you have anything else you wanted to talk about in regards to the context of how this all contributes to raising an intentional family?
[27:49] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Sure.
[27:51] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I think intentionality is a really broad term at times, right?
[28:00] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And when you hone in on what does it mean for our family to be intentional, it gives you the ability, the framework to be able to decide where you are going to focus your family's energy.
[28:13] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And for us currently, our family has been in a season of
[28:17] \[SPEAKER_02\]: being slower and being at home since I'm recovering from foot surgery.
[28:21] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And in the process, we have been very much into making things at home for a very long time, whether it's soap, or candles, or whatever, and because I haven't been able to drive with making a lot of that,
[28:33] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And what I've seen in my kids is their desire and their pride that comes from contributing to that To the point where we had family members that were over visiting recently and my oldest is like my feeling making soap
[28:48] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And I was like, oh, okay, let's make soup.
[28:51] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so when you give them the ability to think independently, when you give them the tools, to be able to start doing some of these things with responsibility, you don't realize how much that forms the intentionally and the value system around your family, and it all kind of meshes together.
[29:09] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah.
[29:11] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, I'm so glad that you said intentionality is broad because I think that's the cool thing about it is that there I mean, I think that's why my podcast is having longevity because there's so many areas that we can choose to be intentional and that we don't even recognize when we do take back that control and we are
[29:28] \[SPEAKER_05\]: thoughtful when we are mindful about it, that it shifts things in our lives for the better.
[29:33] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So I love that you said that.
[29:35] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And I agree with everything you said.
[29:36] \[SPEAKER_05\]: You said it much more.
[29:37] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And a much more articulate way than I did today, Jenna.
[29:40] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Very kind, very kind.
[29:42] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I do feel like, though, what's interesting about it is that your intentionality while it's broad also evolves.
[29:48] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yeah.
[29:49] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Like it can grow as your family grows in changes.
[29:51] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So like a great example would be,
[29:54] \[SPEAKER_02\]: last year after publishing two books, I was on the go a time.
[29:59] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I was doing so much.
[30:00] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I was going and seeing people as on the news.
[30:02] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I was doing podcasts.
[30:03] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It was like, I was just in front of people a lot.
[30:06] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And now this year, because I've been having surgery and I'm like, in this season of recovery, I've been at home in behind the scenes more.
[30:14] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And my business has taken this completely new
[30:17] \[SPEAKER_02\]: road that I never anticipated.
[30:19] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So now I have an Etsy shop because I've been making all of this stuff at home because I'm at home and I'm moving slower and I'm focusing on like, well, waiting ingredients in my actually using when I'm, you know, washing my hands are like, I'm in the process right now of learning how to make chapstick, which is fascinating to me.
[30:38] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so because of that, my intentionality has evolved based off of what it is that I'm doing in my
[30:46] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm breached to my family's life as well.
[30:48] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And so now we're really in this season of like moving slow, being home more.
[30:53] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I'm still working, but I'm working in a different way, which has been really cool to see.
[30:58] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[30:59] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And again, I love the piece about how your kids are just helping, helping with all this.
[31:04] \[SPEAKER_05\]: And that's what the whole point of this episode is today.
[31:06] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So yes, wonderful, wonderful.
[31:08] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Well, where can listeners Jenna connect with you online if they want to hear more and grab a copy of either of your books?
[31:14] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Yes, so I am on Instagram at purposeful double underscore parenting or you can hop to my website which is your purposeful parenting.com and both of my books lets choose less and we can help our available through the website or you can find them on Amazon.
[31:32] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Perfect.
[31:33] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Well, quickly, as we wrap things up here, I'm going to ask you the final two questions.
[31:35] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I ask every guest.
[31:36] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I don't know if you remember these two last time, but the first one is, what's been a beneficial resource in your life that you want to share with the listeners?
[31:44] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Am I going to get a lot of really bad feedback if I say Chad G.P.T?
[31:48] \[SPEAKER_05\]: No, I use that to help with everything these days.
[31:52] \[SPEAKER_02\]: Okay.
[31:52] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I know it's controversial, but honestly, I found that for me, it's really interesting.
[31:58] \[SPEAKER_02\]: It actually has lended, lended itself to my essentialism mindset because I am able to find better answers.
[32:08] \[SPEAKER_02\]: just with very clear values, right?
[32:11] \[SPEAKER_02\]: And I'm, I'm, I'm sifting through a lot of the information.
[32:14] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So instead of like a recipe blog, I'm able to use chat GPT and it little give me more specifics with my recipes.
[32:21] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So I've been using that for that kind of stuff.
[32:23] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, I feel like the options are endless of what you can do with it.
[32:26] \[SPEAKER_05\]: The more I've discovered all the facets of what it can do.
[32:31] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah, the more I've also loved it.
[32:33] \[SPEAKER_05\]: So not controversial.
[32:34] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I think a lot of people
[32:36] \[SPEAKER_05\]: My last question is, what is something you can't stop talking about?
[32:40] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I cannot stop talking about candles right now.
[32:43] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I have been, so I partnered with a local woodworker actually, and he hand makes these whiskey cups.
[32:51] \[SPEAKER_02\]: So they're gorgeous, and they're made from all different kinds of wood.
[32:56] \[SPEAKER_02\]: I am pouring soy wax candles and then using really natural sense and there's a natural wood wick and so I've been telling everyone because these candles are just like absolutely beautiful and they're clean and they don't smell really like chemical fields and they burn really nicely so yeah that's my little stack I've been talking about candles.
[33:18] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Yeah cool no I love a good candle for
[33:20] \[SPEAKER_05\]: Well, Jenna, thanks again for joining me.
[33:23] \[SPEAKER_05\]: I'll be sure to link the other episode that we had together in the show notes as well for listeners.
[33:27] \[SPEAKER_05\]: But again, open invitation on the podcast anytime you're so helpful.
[33:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you.
[33:32] \[SPEAKER_04\]: What did you think of the episode?
[33:34] \[SPEAKER_04\]: I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
[33:35] \[SPEAKER_04\]: To learn more about today's guest, including links, resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at minimalismomspodcast.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as my book Minimalismoms Living and Parenting with Simplicity, or other ways to connect or work with me online.
[33:54] \[SPEAKER_04\]: If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave a rating or review of your favorite episode.
[34:07] \[SPEAKER_04\]: Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends and social media is very helpful and will encourage others on their journey to think more and do with us.

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