# A Better Way to Manage the Invisible Work of Home Life | Lisa Woodruff (EP455)

An episode of [Minimalist Moms Podcast | Purposeful Life & Parenting Tips](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1159498258), 16 Jun 2026, 34 min.

Audio: https://prefix.up.audio/s/pdst.fm/e/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/mgln.ai/e/35/audio2.redcircle.com/episodes/794559ae-2606-435f-b649-0551768d9ede/stream.mp3

If you feel like you’re doing everything for everyone and still sinking a little deeper every day, you’re not alone. In Escaping Quicksand, Lisa Woodruff reveals why so many women feel buried by the mental load of modern home life and how to finally rise above it. Many of us have accepted that managing a home simply means carrying an endless mental checklist. The appointments, the paperwork, the meals, the laundry, the things that need fixed, purchased, remembered, and followed up on. But what if it doesn't have to be that way? In this episode, I sit down with Lisa Woodruff, author of Escaping Quicksand, to explore a different way of thinking about home management, organization, and the invisible responsibilities that shape our days. Lisa shares why so many women feel stuck in a cycle of constantly reacting to life and offers a refreshing perspective on what it looks like to create systems that actually support the life you want to live. What I appreciated most about this conversation is that it isn't about becoming more productive or squeezing more into your day. It's about creating enough structure, clarity, and intention that you can stop spending so much energy keeping everything afloat. Links Discussed in This Episode | • Checkout the podcast storefront for recommendations from Diane. • Diane's Resource: The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg | Previous Episode: Becoming a Super Communicator | Charles Duhigg • Subscribe to the Minimalist Moms Youtube Channel • Water Dispenser 5 Gallon Water Bottle Pump • Connect with Lisa • Website • Instagram • Podcast • Book: Escaping Quicksand: 10 Steps to Overcome the Overwhelm of Modern Homelife About Lisa | Lisa Woodruff is a productivity and home organization expert, bestselling author, and founder of Organize 365. Through her podcast, books, and training programs, she helps busy women reduce overwhelm, clear mental clutter, and create functional systems that make everyday life more manageable. Known for her practical approach and mottos, “Done is better than perfect” and “Progress over perfection,” Lisa has been featured in publications including The New York Times, Fast Company, and Woman’s Day. She is passionate about helping women redefine organization as a skill that evolves with each season of life. Episode Sponsors | The Minimalist Moms Podcast would not be possible without the support of weekly sponsors. Choosing brands that I believe in is important to me. I only want to recommend brands that I believe may help you in your daily life. As always, never feel pressured into buying anything. Remember: if you don't need it, it's not a good deal! Enjoy the Podcast? Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning into this podcast, then do not hesitate to write a review. You can also share this with your fellow mothers so that they can be inspired to think more and do with less. Order (or review) my book, Minimalist Moms: Living & Parenting With Simplicity. You can contact me through my website, find me on Instagram, Pinterest or like The Minimalist Moms Page on Facebook. Our Sponsors: * Check out BetterHelp and use my code betterhelp.com for a great deal: https://www.betterhelp.com * Check out Cure Hydration and use my code MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://www.curehydration.com * Check out DeleteMe and use my code joindeleteme.com/MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://joindeleteme.com * Check out Wayfair: https://www.wayfair.com Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

## Transcript

[0:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The problem for me was once I got into my mid-30s, the quicksand just kept getting deeper and deeper, and it was like somebody was trying to push me under it instead of giving me some time alone at home to get back above it, and no one really gave me permission, and no one was ever going to give me permission, and so I just had to do it for myself, just like you would a child or an elder.
[0:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You don't think it's selfish when you take care of children or parents who need support, but you do think it's selfish when you provide your own self-care in this ridiculous.
[0:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And the other benefit is, you will wake up and you will go to bed in an organized space, so you will feel like you're living an organized life, 50% of the time.
[0:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Think through what you're doing in Household.
[0:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What's the simplest and easiest way to do it?
[0:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Not how did you see it done in the magazine somewhere?
[0:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Just get the job done.
[0:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is Diane Bowden, and you're listening to the minimalist mom's podcast.
[0:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Many of us have accepted that managing a home simply means carrying an endless mental checklist.
[0:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The appointments, the paperwork, the meals, the laundry, the things that need fix, purchase, remembered and followed up on.
[1:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: but what if it doesn't have to be that way?
[1:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: In this episode, I sit down with Lisa Woodruff, author of Escape Being Quick Sand, to explore a different way of thinking about home management, organization, and the invisible responsibilities that shape our days.
[1:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Lisa shares why so many women feel stuck in a cycle of constantly reacting to life, and offers a refreshing perspective.
[1:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: on what it looks like to create systems that actually support the life you want to live.
[1:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What I appreciated most about this conversation is that it isn't about becoming more productive or squeezing more into your day.
[1:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's about creating enough structure, clarity and intention that you can stop spending so much energy keeping everything afloat.
[1:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But quickly before we get there, I want to share a minimalist resource with all of you.
[1:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This week's resource is a book that actually came out back in 2012.
[1:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's called the power of habit, why we do what we do in life and business by Charles Dohig.
[1:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Charles was actually on the podcast last year talking about super communicators.
[1:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The power of habit was his first book that discussed all about why we do what we do in life and in business.
[2:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Some people call it the original atomic habits.
[2:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And personally, I do believe that this book goes into a lot more depth in research in regards to habit formation.
[2:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Do Higgs writing style is engaging and accessible, and it's full of useful information to actually change your habits.
[2:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is a book I picked up long ago, and I'd say it's one of the few that has actually been really profound in changing my habits.
[2:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Again, I know the go-to habit guide is atomic habits, but if you haven't taken the time check this one out, I highly recommend it.
[2:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'll be sure to put a link in the show notes for those of you that are interested.
[2:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then lastly, I always sound like a broken record here, but if you've yet to leave a rating review for the minimalist bombs podcast, this is just a great way to support the show.
[2:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We are eight reviews away from a thousand.
[2:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I would love to get there by the end of summer.
[2:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know there are so many of you that have been listening for a while now and haven't taken the time to do that, but I promise you it takes 30 seconds or less.
[2:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And again, this is just a great way you can help support the show.
[2:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So thank you for taking the time to do that.
[3:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And with all that said, let's get into this episode with Lisa Woodruff.
[3:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: at least I'm really excited to talk about your new book today, escaping quicksand, 10 steps to overcome the overwhelmed of modern home life.
[3:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thanks for joining me.
[3:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thank you so much for having me.
[3:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, so okay, quicksand.
[3:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Was there a moment in your life that you felt like, I guess at what moment in your life made you realize that you were sinking into quicksand so to speak in your own home?
[3:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: you know, I think we have a lot of quicksand moments throughout our lives, but like in our 20s and 30s, we're like, okay, I'm singing into quicksand.
[3:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And if you just get a couple of days at home alone or even, you know, just turn on TV for the kids or whatever, like you can kind of get up above the quicksand again.
[3:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The problem for me was once I got into my mid 30s, the quicksand just kept getting deeper and deeper and it was like somebody was trying to push me under it instead of giving me some time alone at home to get back above it.
[4:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it was just a lot of the complexities of life.
[4:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, the work that I was doing, the direct sales company went bankrupt.
[4:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My parents kept a force, my father got sick, he passed away.
[4:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My kids had extra needs, everything got harder and harder.
[4:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And there was no margin in order to get all my ducks in a row again.
[4:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I realize that the older you get as an adult, the less time you have to get your ducks in a row, they just keep running in different directions and you're trying to chase after them.
[4:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So between 33 and 39, I just kept sliding deeper and deeper and deeper into the pit of despair and could not find that pocket of time to pull myself back out.
[4:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And when I got to the bottom of the pit of despair, I thought I would hit rock bottom, but really I found there was quicksand.
[4:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I was just thinking deeper and deeper.
[4:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was like, how low does this go?
[4:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, I felt so hopeless when I was getting ready to turn 40.
[4:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I just thought, like, I can't live my life this way.
[4:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There has to be a way to feel like you're in control of something, anything.
[4:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[5:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I mean, I can absolutely relate.
[5:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was just talking to someone yesterday on the show.
[5:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We were talking about how we should look forward to Mondays.
[5:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And if we're not looking forward to the start of a new week in just in general, the start of a new day and new mercies every day, we are.
[5:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Working through burnout and I guess we're just not noticing the good stuff the fun the joy to be had in life And so I'm right there with you because I do feel like it just there's always something new to be managed I think that I'm financially like set not set but I if you like financially stable And it's like oh you have this payment that's unexpected are all the thing needs fixed and yeah And then you're managing everyone's schedules.
[5:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm right there with you.
[5:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I really like though.
[5:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We'll start here
[5:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You say the question women are asking, is how do I do it all?
[5:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The question they should be asking is how do I care for myself so that I can't do it all?
[5:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So when you were around 40, I guess how did you move through that realization and start to better take care of yourself?
[5:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, before I turned 40, I didn't.
[6:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And even in my 40s, I started to, but every time I did, I felt guilty that I did, I think we as women are really harsh on each other and we're like, oh my gosh, you're like, getting your nails done.
[6:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: How do you have the time in my, get your nails done?
[6:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, any little teeny tiny thing we do for ourselves.
[6:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like we don't say, we don't feel guilty if we brush our teeth.
[6:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But if we do anything that is like above and beyond.
[6:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like let's say you go out for a nice lunch by yourself just to treat yourself.
[6:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, oh my gosh, you could have used that money for your kids to have some sporting event that they're never going to be pro in any way.
[6:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So like,
[6:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We prioritize every single thing for our family members except for ourselves, time, money, energy, sleep, everything, and then we take just a little bit for ourselves, we feel guilty ourselves and then other people are like, yeah, you should, you should feel guilty.
[6:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So what I did in my 40s was, I started to reorganize our house and all of those things, but now in my 50s looking back on that decade I realized I also prioritized myself.
[7:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and no one really gave me permission, and no one was ever going to give me permission, and so I just had to do it for myself, and it was simple things like, when you're making a nutritious lunch for your kids to send a school, I don't know if you have to do this, but the school, my kids went to.
[7:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You had to pack and have certain nutritional things, so we bought the museum apple that you packed every single day, because it came home every night, and then I'm Friday, you threw it away and you bought a new one.
[7:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we're literally buying food to throw away, to check a box that a school is making us do.
[7:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And yet, I'm eating like junk food because I don't take time to make my food.
[7:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So one of the ways in which I now put myself on the list of priorities is, as I make my grandson snacks, I also make my snacks.
[7:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: As I fill his water bottle, I fill my water bottle.
[7:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When I do grocery shopping, I think about like, okay, what is the family need to eat?
[7:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, based on my macros and the fact that I'm through menopause and all that,
[7:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What do I want to make?
[7:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And my food is completely different than everybody else's food.
[7:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And my husband's like, we should all eat the same thing.
[7:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm like, I would be the size of an elephant.
[8:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If I ate what a four-year-old that's the size of a seven-year-old eats, like I cannot eat the way
[8:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My grandson does, or my daughter who's breastfeeding, I just can't, I have to eat differently.
[8:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so, recognizing that and caring for yourself and your needs, like you would for the children, like we would not say to the newborn, sorry, everybody's going to drink home milk because that's what's in the, no, the baby gets formula.
[8:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So you should be able to have food that meets your needs as well.
[8:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[8:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's a good point.
[8:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I like that you also say night time self care tells your mind and body.
[8:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thank you for a job well done.
[8:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it seems like you started to prioritize self care not just throughout the day, but in the evening as well.
[8:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, you know, we're going to do things in the evening to care for ourselves anyway, even if it's scrolling Instagram, I do it too.
[8:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But you would not say, again, I'll just say with my, my grandchildren live with me.
[8:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So for the four year old, when he's having a hard time going to bed, it's because we didn't do his evening routine, right, when you have an evening routine and it's set, the kids naturally go to bed nicely.
[9:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, what about for us?
[9:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like mine is very short.
[9:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I brush my teeth and I take a hot bath every single night.
[9:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: My whole entire life.
[9:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sometimes the hot bath this four minutes, once it was four hours, don't judge me.
[9:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I always do that hot bath and it just says to my body, you know, yeah, we're getting ready to go to bed.
[9:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's okay to take a hot bath.
[9:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, time to wind down.
[9:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I miss having a bath so badly.
[9:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We had this giant, uh, it actually was in our smallest home.
[9:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Our 800 square foot home.
[9:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We had the biggest bathtub ironically.
[9:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I'm on the six feet tall.
[9:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So it's just hard to find a bathtub that will fit me anyways.
[9:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that is one of the biggest complaints I have with our current home.
[9:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know first world problems, but yeah, there's nothing like soaking in bath and I get that self-care, I mean, like you talked about nails or the bath or whatever it is on the blank that seems somewhat superficial, but it like, I don't know, this little ritual is really due tie us back to peace.
[10:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, and so I'm glad you said self-care and I have given you examples of what we could kind of consider self-care.
[10:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I went back to school to get my PhD in my 50s and when I was in school I was in a developmental class and I'd been a developmental class because I'm an early childhood teacher and so I know child development.
[10:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I was asking questions about adult development and my teacher said well there's really not much research on adult development.
[10:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I was like, okay, well, women go through like, definitely distinct phases in adulthood.
[10:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she's like, not according to science.
[10:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I was like, sounds like a good scenario for research.
[10:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I was thinking about that.
[10:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That was bothering me.
[10:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then also this whole self-care thing was bothering me.
[10:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I realized that I created my own definition of self-care because academia hasn't created one.
[10:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So when you think about child care, taking care of my grandchildren, obviously we're going to provide the clothing they need, how to live in and food.
[10:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But we're going to do more than that.
[10:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're going to provide education.
[10:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're going to provide activities.
[10:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're going to provide spiritual development.
[10:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're going to hug them.
[11:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're going to give them emotional and relational support.
[11:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Same thing with our aging parents and grandparents.
[11:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We are going to when they can't care for themselves anymore.
[11:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're going to provide their food and their laundry and a place safe place to live.
[11:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But also activities and relationships and we're going to give them emotional support in all these things.
[11:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, we'll be between those two like from 18 to let's say 80.
[11:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's self-care.
[11:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We are supposed to take care of ourselves, like our parents to care of us, or we would take care of our parents when they need us to.
[11:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it's way more than just having a place to live and laundry and food.
[11:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's also our emotional, relational, spiritual, educational needs.
[11:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's okay, in your 50s to get a PhD, because you want to.
[11:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's okay, in your 40s to say, I wanna run a marathon because I want to.
[11:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're allowed to have goals and aspirations for ourselves and care for ourselves.
[11:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: all parts of ourselves, not just the essential parts, and we aren't even doing that anyway, just like you would a child or an elder.
[11:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You don't think it's selfish when you take care of children, or parents who need support, but you do think it's selfish when you provide your own self-care in this ridiculous.
[12:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I think that's so interesting.
[12:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've never heard that way.
[12:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I feel like that's one of the best ways I've ever heard self-care described.
[12:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Just yes, how would you take care of your child?
[12:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We should be doing those things for ourselves and nourishing ourselves throughout our lives.
[12:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I've always had the inspiration to go audit classes at Ohio State as soon as my kids are out of the house.
[12:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Because I love to learn.
[12:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that is something that brings me, again, joy.
[12:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I am caring for myself, my mind.
[12:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I am continuing to work that muscle, so to speak.
[12:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So yeah, thanks for speaking to that.
[12:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But now I want to shift a little bit more into organization and home system and in your book, you talk about something called Swiss cheese organizing.
[12:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Tell me a little bit more about this and how this can be beneficial slash productive when it comes to the quick stand in our homes.
[12:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh my gosh, this, I mean, this, you're talking to people who prioritize minimalism.
[12:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, that, that helps you so much and just having less.
[12:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's so much easier to organize when you have less.
[13:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I am not a minimalist.
[13:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I have a bunch of junk.
[13:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I like crafting and all of that, but I'm still organized.
[13:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It just, if you have more stuff, you're going to spend a lot more time organizing because there's just more stuff.
[13:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But, either way, when you go to organize your house, when you go to take back your house, and you feel overwhelmed, and you're going to spend the weekend or the week decluttering and organizing.
[13:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Typically, what I found I did personally when I had school aged kids, as I would organize the family room and enjoy room and the kids rooms and try to get those places organized because they look like a bomb one off in them, right?
[13:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But what I found is, day later, it looks like a bomb went off of there, and it's literally like organizing, but there's no end product longer than just a couple of days.
[13:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So finally in my 40s, when I went to take back my house, and yes, I tried to get the kids' spaces, and I realized I'm never going to be done organizing.
[13:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If I'm always organizing the spaces that are constantly getting messy.
[13:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I broke my house into different sections and I did it like a school plan to get the whole entire house organized.
[13:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So where I say to start is the adult bedroom bathroom closet.
[14:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So your personal bedroom bathroom closet.
[14:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Send everybody to their bedrooms to organize their rooms over the weekend who cares if the kids get it done or not.
[14:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You get your bedroom that I'm sending you as your mom to your bedroom.
[14:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You get your closet, your bathroom, your bedroom done.
[14:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And when you get those spaces done, first of all, they will stay organized more than three days.
[14:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: those take organized for about three to four months and then you'll want to naturally redo them but it won't take as long to do them as it did the first time and the other benefit is you will wake up and you'll go to bed in an organized space so you will feel like you're living an organized life 50 percent of the time okay fine I counted sleeping time but that's okay
[14:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then you go ahead and go back to organizing those family spaces for well, because it's gonna drive you crazy that they aren't organized.
[14:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But then your next block of time, order the pizza, say we're gonna have a movie, weekend, watch whatever you want on your tablets, and go organize your storage room, or guest bedroom, or your home office.
[14:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And these spaces will stay organized longer and longer.
[14:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The way I organize the storage room, I call it a prepaid store, and we put in shelving, and it will stay organized forever.
[15:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It will need maintenance, but you will never need to put in a new organizational system again.
[15:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Literally, when you move from house to house to house, the storage room will be the first space organized and will always stay organized because you set it up like a store, not just like where you're shoving boxes and broken things and things you don't know what to do with.
[15:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Absolutely.
[15:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You also say, and this is maybe a little bit redundant to what you just spoke to, but you say that productivity actually comes after organization not before.
[15:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So how does that process that you talked about change the way we work and make decisions every day?
[15:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, so I realized a while ago, right, a decade ago, as organizing people's homes, that the first step is decluttering.
[15:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It people love to decluttering.
[15:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You get a good lift from just having less stuff.
[15:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But once you have less stuff, then you need to organize it.
[15:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Everything has to have a home so that when you go to pick up, you know where to put things.
[15:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: After everything has a home, then we move to productivity, and productivity can be digital, it can be paste-prepublished, it doesn't matter.
[16:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But productivity is how you actually get more out of the space more out of your time.
[16:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If your space isn't organized, as soon as you start to get productive, you hit all these road bumps because you can't find what you need or you forgot about something, and so you need to do it in this order, and so in that way productivity flows after organization.
[16:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's why once you can get your house all the way organized, which usually does take about a year.
[16:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So don't worry about it, give yourself a whole, school year to get it done, get it all the way organized.
[16:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Once you're all the way organized for the phase of life you're in, then your productivity will stick and you'll get faster and faster and you'll get more and more capacity until you go into the next stage of life and then you'll need to reorder your house for that stage of life to get.
[16:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But it won't take as long the next time.
[16:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, I love that you said that, but it's going to take some time.
[16:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think some people do go in and get a big dose of decluttering done.
[16:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: They can do that maybe in a week or so, kind of ripping the bandaid off, but there's still stuff that you need to go through.
[17:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's still the oversight in it is a process.
[17:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's kind of like with anything else you're doing.
[17:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you're training for a race or you're trying to lose weight, like it's time to lean in, it's slow and steady.
[17:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And yeah, why would it be any different with getting our houses organized?
[17:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: especially if this is new to us and we haven't been living this way if we've been massive consumers and I can't remember this statistic of how many things that we actually own in our spaces but yeah that's a lot of inventory to manage.
[17:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah okay so I also love that you say when it comes to the housework and the labor in the home our housework doesn't deserve our best work.
[17:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What do you mean by that and how can listeners
[17:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So the first thing we need to do is we need to operationally define what is housework.
[17:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Research is done like thousands and thousands of studies about housework, but researchers have also acknowledged they're not measuring the same things.
[17:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So every single housework study is using different work as defined as housework.
[18:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: some studies consider parenting housework, some studies consider organizing and yard work in gardening housework, and some studies consider cleaning and food preparation and laundry housework.
[18:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I did my first study was how do we find an operational definition of housework come in the process of getting that published now?
[18:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And the operational definition of a housework, according to the American population, 1,000 Americans from 18 to 80, is only three big tasks, and they have 18 little tasks in them.
[18:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Laundry, cleaning, and anything food preparation related.
[18:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That is housework.
[18:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, now, talking about that, not parenting, not organizing, not bill pay, not all the other things you do.
[18:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Only those things.
[18:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: cleaning, laundry, and everything related to food, preparation.
[18:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That is a lot of tasks that you do each week.
[18:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So let's just take laundry, for example.
[18:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm such a nerd.
[18:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: One weekend, I was like, I'm gonna figure out how long it takes me to do laundry.
[19:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I tracked every single time I went in the laundry room, I went in there nine times, and how many minutes I was there.
[19:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it was a total of only two hours, but I had to go in the laundry nine times, because I had to move it from the washer to the dryer and the dryer and fold it and put away and all those things.
[19:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it's two hours to do laundry, but you go in there nine times.
[19:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So think about, how do you want to do laundry, to what level do you want to do laundry, the two hours are non-negotiable, but what happens at the end of laundry is negotiable.
[19:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So again, I did this with my kids are little, and now I'm doing it with my grandchildren, all socks stay in the family room with the shoes.
[19:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's absolutely no reason for socks to ever go into a bedroom because the kids take them off before they even get downstairs.
[19:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So socks and shoes are always in the family room.
[19:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: my daughter and the kids live in the basement.
[19:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And we live upstairs.
[19:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So now I have a whole little dresser of clothes for the four-year-old in the family room because he comes up from the basement to me to get ready to go to preschool.
[19:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We watch a little bit of booba.
[19:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I make a mislittle breakfast.
[19:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then we have these little drawers or the bottom of his toy bookshelf that are actually closed.
[20:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we've got a pan store, we've got a shirt store, and we've got a little, they're just bins of socks and underwear.
[20:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And he pulls out what he needs.
[20:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then when he's done, he takes the laundry directly in the laundry room and puts it right in the washer and dryer.
[20:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We don't even have dirty laundry on the first floor, just put it right into the washer dryer.
[20:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So when I was with my daughter in the basement, she has her own washer dryer to back up on laundry as single mothers of newborns that are, right?
[20:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I said, well, I've taught Grayson to just put the dirty clothes right in the washer.
[20:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She's like, what?
[20:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I was like, yeah, there's only three of you, like, just every day, just put everything in there and then at night, just run it.
[20:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she's like, oh my gosh, so she started doing this and she's like, this is genius because who wrote I mean separate and close.
[20:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've never separated close.
[20:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was watching everything on everything together.
[20:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, okay, wash towels or jeans differently if you want, but when you're washing baby stuff and preschool stuff and you know, you're hang around the house stuff because you're a new mom breastfeeding like it can all be washed together, go right in the dryer.
[21:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Think through what you're doing in house or what's the simplest and easiest way to do it.
[21:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Not how did you see it done in the magazine somewhere.
[21:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: just get the job done.
[21:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[21:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: When we were living in that 800-square foot house, we bought our, I was very pregnant and we brought our third baby home there.
[21:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We only lived there for two weeks before we moved, but I had a laundry basket similarly in our dining room and it was just easier to get everyone out the door if that laundry basket was just full of their clothes.
[21:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: in my age, dining room.
[21:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I know it wasn't as appealing to the eyes, but you have to also reconcile what season of life you're in, and it's not going to be forever.
[21:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And so even if you have like a box that you can put away in a cupboard, but it's nearby in a space that is accessible, I think that's what it means to always use the word like a well-old machine.
[21:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's like, that's what it means.
[21:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It means how are we setting up our systems that work best for us?
[21:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Again, in the current season, not for the season that we aspire to have or our aspirational self, it's like what works for the now, and it might be unsightly, it might not be the way that everyone else is doing it, but it works for us, and that's what makes me productive.
[22:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And if you came into our family room, it looks like it's a toy bookshelf, because the middle on top shelves are toys, but the bottoms look like they're just bins, and it's actually the kid's dresser.
[22:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You can easily make your space look like it's supposed to look, but function the way it needs to function.
[22:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And oh my goodness, if you have kids that are school age.
[22:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You know, starting with newborn all the way to 18, your house is changing between newborn to full day kindergarten every two to three months at a minimum.
[22:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The foods they eat, the size clothes they wear, the sports that they're in, like it's a constant change.
[22:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The more you can make your household match that constant change versus trying to force your kids into what a house would look like when you're an empty nest or like, you know,
[22:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[22:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, for sure.
[22:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You do in your book talk about invisible labor, the mental load.
[22:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We've touched a little bit on that.
[23:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Perfectionism expectations.
[23:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I want to say here as we kind of get closer to wrapping up, I want to make sure we touch on the Sunday basket system.
[23:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's a tool that you want to reduce in your book.
[23:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'll let you expand on that a little bit more.
[23:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sure.
[23:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So when my kids were two years and six months old, and this was back in 2002, really before the internet and definitely before cell phones, I was completely overwhelmed with all the administrative tasks that I needed to do.
[23:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Phone calls to make bills to pay, forms to fill out all those things that you are still overwhelmed with today.
[23:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And my son would never sleep.
[23:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So whenever he took his little 20 minute nap, I would spend my whole entire 20 minutes trying to figure out what in that to do pile I needed to do and then he would wake up.
[23:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So one Sunday night, I just took that to do list and I, the to do list and all the papers and I spread them out into 40 different actionable piles.
[23:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: contained those put him in a basket.
[23:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then the next day when he fell asleep for 20 minutes, I just grabbed one package of things to do.
[23:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think it was phone calls made phone calls till he woke up.
[23:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He woke up and I was like, this is going to work.
[24:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I like actually did something in nap time.
[24:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm so excited.
[24:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I knew it would take me about six weeks to get caught up on the backlog I had because I was so behind on all the tasks I needed to do.
[24:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But that was the start of the Sunday basket.
[24:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Then when I turned 40 and started to organize 365, I would talk about the Sunday basket, and then eight years ago, I actually manufactured it.
[24:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we manufacture a box that's on your kitchen counter.
[24:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It has slash pockets, which are binder inserts, plastic binder inserts that are colored, and I manufacture them myself so that all of them are the same color.
[24:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We have multiple different colors and each color means something.
[24:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So you can have like a school color, you have a household color, you have all these different colors and you organize all of your actionable to
[24:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then on Sunday you go through and you review all the projects here in the process of pay your bills, do all your regular administration and then plan your week and decide which projects are going to come out of the box and get done during the week.
[24:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That is fabulous.
[25:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I know that that's going to help people that are listening.
[25:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That helps me as well.
[25:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: In some of it isn't even that I don't have the time.
[25:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's kind of just like, I don't want the time to be now.
[25:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I think just even setting aside.
[25:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is going to grab something from this bin for this 20 minutes I have.
[25:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I like that.
[25:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I've got to tell you about Zenni, because this is one of those brands that's actually been a part of our family for a long time.
[25:29] \[SPEAKER_00\]: My husband has been ordering his glasses through Zenni since 2015, long before they ever sponsored the show.
[25:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: He loves that he can get stylish, prescription glasses without turning it into a whole afternoon of appointments and errands.
[25:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And recently, I decided to try a Zenni for myself in order to pair of sunglasses.
[25:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What I've loved the most
[25:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: is how customizable everything is.
[25:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You can choose frames that fit your style, explore different lens options, and even use their virtual try-on feature to see how they look before you order.
[25:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What I appreciate is that Zenni makes updating your eyewear feel easy, instead of feeling like you have to find one pair that works for every situation, you can actually express yourself and choose eyewear that fits different seasons of life.
[26:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: With prescription glasses, sunglasses, and blue light lenses starting at under $30, it makes
[26:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time.
[26:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Go to zinny.com slash podcast and use code podcast 15 for 15% off your first order.
[26:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The style still out so don't sit on it.
[26:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's zenni.com slash podcast promo code podcast 15.
[26:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: In adding to that last question that I just asked you in regards to how our brains aren't designed to hold all those tasks, saw the mental load, what happens mentally when we create systems that hold those responsibilities instead?
[26:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Tell me about the freedom you experienced when you were actually able to get through some of that by, I guess, isolating it to those Sunday baskets systems.
[27:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, I think I'm very lucky in that I, you know, my college degree is in teaching and I've taught Montessori and public school and my kids have gone to all different kinds of schools.
[27:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I love learning.
[27:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love teaching.
[27:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I love finding a problem solving it for myself and then teaching it to someone else.
[27:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's what teachers do.
[27:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so when I realized that the Sunday basket worked for me, I taught it to other people.
[27:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it was probably eight or ten years ago when one of my customers who's also certified organizer said to me, she said, Lisa, wouldn't it be funny if we found out that you had ADHD and that this Sunday basket system was actually a non pharmaceutical intervention for ADHD.
[27:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I was like, ha ha, Monique, be great if we found out I had ADHD.
[27:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So anyway, we did find out I have ADHD.
[27:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I am finishing up my PhD right now, and my work is in perspective, memory, and working memory.
[27:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And these are your executive functions.
[27:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So ADHD is a deficiency in executive functions.
[27:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're actually nine.
[27:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And working memory is the primary executive function.
[28:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Working memory is the ability to remember the past code that was just sent to your email so that you can unlock whatever you want to purchase right now on the phone.
[28:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like that is your working memory and action.
[28:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: While you're doing that, you also get a text message from the kid's school, and you're like, oh, do I finish putting the passcode in to make the purchase that I'm making or do I go see what the text message from the kid's school is?
[28:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The text message is perspective memory, a future oriented or an interactive task.
[28:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Once you switch to the text message, do you remember to go back and finish the transaction you were in before the message came in.
[28:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is our everyday life.
[28:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This bouncing back and forth between perspective memory and working memory, that's what my dissertation is on.
[28:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Working memory is only one of the executive functions.
[28:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So executive functions are working memory and then time on task and getting started and organizing is one and planning is an executive function.
[28:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You cannot possibly plan when you are actively doing something.
[29:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You have to be done with all of your executive functions.
[29:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Have some white space, sit down and plan.
[29:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That executive function cannot coexist with the other executive functions at the same time.
[29:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So, I can't remember what your question was against so excited.
[29:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: No, I was just talking about the mental, like why those types of systems putting those types of systems in place actually offer us so much freedom that we may not even be aware of.
[29:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, thank you so much for getting me back on track.
[29:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So, what I am hoping to support with the Sunday basket, because this is the research I'm going to do, is that when we put things in the Sunday basket and know they are safely there,
[29:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Our brain doesn't have to remember them anymore, and I've gone way further on this, which I write down every single thing my brain thinks on an index card and I throw all those in the Sunday basket, which yes, there's a ridiculous amount of index cards when I get there on Sunday.
[29:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But everything and I write down on that index card is something I was either doing that got interrupted.
[29:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: or an interruption that came that didn't have to be happened right now.
[29:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I could keep doing whatever I was doing so that when I get to Sunday, I can look at all of these requests on my time, either from my own brain or other people and make better decisions.
[30:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it really externalizes the need to remember all of those things.
[30:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And that goes along with to-do lists.
[30:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you write to-do lists right now and to-do lists over well-meow, a lot of times when I was doing to-do lists, I would go to the to-do list and figure out how much can I get checked off this list versus what is the most important, especially if I couldn't complete the task all the way in the time that I had.
[30:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Once you put them all on index cards, it's much easier to do portions of things or multiple index cards at a time.
[30:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, well, Lisa, as we wrap things up, you've talked about systems, areas to declutter.
[30:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I always ask my guests here just a practical, implementable take away that listeners can start today that you would recommend.
[30:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think the biggest takeaway that I would give is, what is one thing that you are already doing in your house?
[30:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna put the socks where the shoes are that make sense.
[31:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Or you're right, I am dressing the kids there.
[31:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm like, what is one thing where you're already modifying your house to do something in a different way?
[31:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But you're trying to meet the expectation of some invisible person who's going to come check your house and make sure it's done the way other people do it like how can you modify your house for the way that you are living in it right now and stop fighting the natural order of how you use your house.
[31:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So good.
[31:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Where can listeners grab a copy of your upcoming book and connect with you online if they want to hear more?
[31:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So escaping quicksand is available anywhere that you buy books.
[31:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Our website is organized365.com.
[31:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I also have a podcast called Organize365.com and I'm most active on Instagram.
[31:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Perfect.
[31:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, as you wrap things up, I'm asking the final two questions I ask every guest.
[31:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And the first one is what has been a beneficial resource in your life that you want to share with the listeners?
[31:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Okay, so I got a water machine at my house so I could have those five gallon jugs of water at the house because I really like purified water and I found that there is this in on Amazon for like $15 you can get a pump it's a five gallon water bottle pump so now I just have the water bottle right on top of my dryer as you come into our house and I have this it's a rechargeable pump and I can use it like it's a water machine without the whole big water machine attached to it.
[32:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: love it and you actually sent me that beforehand, so I'll be sure to include it for the listeners in the show notes.
[32:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then lastly, what is something you can't stop talking about?
[32:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I cannot stop talking about the fact that women have dreams in adulthood and my dream was to be a state home mom.
[32:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh my gosh, I loved being a state home mom.
[32:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But now that I am in my 50s, you know, my 40s, my dream was to start my company and now my 50s, it was to get a PhD and I just say to all of you, it may not be the time to act on your dreams, but keep having the dreams and write them down and just as someone who is older and out of the active parenting years, just know, your time is coming.
[33:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You will have plenty of time to go after these dreams in the future, just capture them now and keep dreaming them.
[33:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That's a great final word of encouragement.
[33:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And again, I think there's a lot to be taken away from this content today.
[33:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So thanks so much for sharing with us.
[33:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Thank you.
[33:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What did you think of the episode?
[33:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
[33:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: To learn more about today's guest, including links, resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at minimalismomspodcast.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as my book Minimalismoms Living and Parenting with Simplicity, or other ways to connect or work with me online.
[33:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
[33:50] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And leave a rating or review of your favorite episode.
[33:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends and social media is very helpful and will encourage others on their journey to think more and do with less.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.