# Stop Trying So Hard to Be Spiritual: Quiet Practices for An Already-Full Life | Laura Kauffman, The Meeting Place (Bonus Episode)

An episode of [Minimalist Moms Podcast | Purposeful Life & Parenting Tips](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1159498258), 18 Sep 2026, 30 min.

Audio: https://prefix.up.audio/s/pdst.fm/e/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/clrtpod.com/m/mgln.ai/e/35/audio2.redcircle.com/episodes/b9e60e81-53fb-4271-9969-dbd5290d6cbf/stream.mp3

For those who are new here, I occasionally release bonus episodes designed for a specific part of my audience. I have listeners from all kinds of faith backgrounds, and this episode is shared from a Christian perspective. If that’s not quite what you’re looking for today, feel free to explore the other episodes released this week - or join me back here next Tuesday for a conversation you won’t want to miss! ------------------ What if growing closer to God wasn’t about adding another practice to your list - but becoming more aware of the presence that’s already here? In this conversation, I’m joined by spiritual director and writer Laura Kauffman, author of The Meeting Place. We talk about moving away from what Laura calls “spiritual maximizing” and toward a quieter, more inhabited relationship with God. Laura introduces us to spiritual direction and contemplative prayer, along with simple practices that can fit into the margins of an already-full life. We also talk about bringing playfulness and imagination back into prayer, helping our children practice noticing goodness, and the surprisingly powerful shift from constantly asking “What’s next?” to simply asking, “What’s here?” Links Discussed in This Episode | • Checkout the podcast storefront for recommendations from Diane. • Subscribe to the Minimalist Moms Youtube Channel • Laura's Resource: Podcast: Pray as You Go • Connect with Laura • Website • Instagram • Book: The Meeting Place: Quiet Spiritual Practices for Dwelling with God in Prayer About Laura | Laura Kauffman, MA, is a spiritual director and writer whose work explores the presence of God in everyday life. Drawing from the Christian contemplative tradition, she accompanies others in listening for God and responding to God's invitation. She has published three collections of poetry that examine the holy edge of ordinary things. Laura lives with her family in the Midwest, where she practices spiritual direction and continues to write. Episode Sponsors | Hey Polo | Protect your loved ones without spying on them. Go to heypolo.com/MINIMALIST or use code MINIMALIST to get 70% off your first year. HungryRoot | Head to HungryRoot.com/minimalist and use code MINIMALIST to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. The Minimalist Moms Podcast would not be possible without the support of weekly sponsors. Choosing brands that I believe in is important to me. I only want to recommend brands that I believe may help you in your daily life. As always, never feel pressured into buying anything. Remember: if you don't need it, it's not a good deal! Enjoy the Podcast? Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning into this podcast, then do not hesitate to write a review. You can also share this with your fellow mothers so that they can be inspired to think more and do with less. Order (or review) my book, Minimalist Moms: Living & Parenting With Simplicity. You can contact me through my website, find me on Instagram, Pinterest or like The Minimalist Moms Page on Facebook. Our Sponsors: * Check out 1-800-GOT-JUNK and use my code 1800gotjunk.com for a great deal: https://www.1800gotjunk.com * Check out BetterHelp and use my code betterhelp.com for a great deal: https://www.betterhelp.com * Check out Cure Hydration and use my code MINIMALIST for a great deal: https://www.curehydration.com * Check out Wayfair: https://www.wayfair.com Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

## Transcript

[0:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: For those of you that are new around here, I release bonus episodes that serve a niche part of my audience.
[0:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This episode is coming from a Christian perspective, so if that's not something you're interested in, check out one of the other episodes that dropped this week or joining back to your next week for episodes that you don't wanna miss.
[0:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I showed up with my spiritual director a few months ago now and I was so burned out that I said, look, I've been right in the book.
[0:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've been directing people.
[0:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I've been parenting my children.
[0:28] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm done with words.
[0:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I don't have words today.
[0:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so how do I pray?
[0:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she said, do you have construction paper?
[0:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I said, yeah, this I have construction paper and markers.
[0:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so for the next hour we sent together, it was primarily quiet.
[0:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But she kind of guided me through a playful prayer where we were the way I created or the images on a page, those spoke for me when I couldn't speak for myself.
[0:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So even in a darker season at the time, that playful element really delighted me.
[0:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I found that since then, although slightly playful, contemplative practices tend to be my favorite, like I love the imagination and prayer in the way you can enter into a story of Jesus by imagining what I might smell like to him.
[1:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: or where you can, I have a whole shelf over here on the side of my office stacked with magazines.
[1:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so to sit down and to collage my prayers, it's a quite playful and light-hearted, and I get a sense of God playing with me as opposed to having, I can get into a transactional mode with them.
[1:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: This is Diane Bowden, and you're listening to the minimalist mom's podcast.
[1:34] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What if growing closer to God wasn't about adding another practice to your list?
[1:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But becoming more aware of the presence that's already here.
[1:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: In today's conversation, I'm joined by spiritual director and writer Laura Kaufman, author of the meeting place, quiet spiritual practices for dwelling with God and prayer.
[1:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We talk about moving away from what Laura calls spiritual maximizing, the feeling that we should always be praying more, reading more are doing our faith better, and toward a quieter, more inhabited relationship with God.
[2:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Laura introduces us to spiritual direction and contemplative prayer, along with simple practices that can fit into the margins of an already full life.
[2:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We also talk about bringing playfulness and imagination back into prayer.
[2:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: helping our children practice noticing goodness and the surprisingly powerful shift from constantly accessing what's next to simply asking what's here.
[2:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But quickly before we get to the episode, if you have been enjoying the content here on the minimalist mom's podcast, be sure to share it with the friend that could also benefit or leave a review or hit five stars because the podcast algorithm really likes to see that.
[2:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So thank you so much for being here and with that, let's
[2:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it was so good, I loved it.
[2:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it was actually, I'm excited to hear that because I especially wanted the chapters to be short because I wanted it to feel accessible.
[3:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I didn't want it to be, you know, I've got a hundred books that I'm halfway through and then your moment shifts and you don't finish.
[3:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I wanted it to be like, hey, where's that chapter on breath prayer?
[3:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm kind of feeling that and you could just flip to it and get it done.
[3:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, which I really liked.
[3:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: As I said, I have about 15 minutes every morning when I'm sitting in the parking lot of my son's school and he's kind of taking his quiet time and I can get a chapter of this book done and so I did finish, but I'm really excited to have you here today, Laura.
[3:31] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We're going to be talking about the book that we're chatting about the meeting place quiet spiritual practices for dwelling with God and prayer.
[3:38] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I'm excited to have you here, why don't you go ahead introduce yourself to the listeners and then we'll get into the conversation.
[3:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Absolutely, but thank you for hiring me.
[3:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm Alora.
[3:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm a spiritual director and writer.
[3:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I live outside of the Omaha area.
[3:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's usually the touch point.
[3:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But we're up in the hills of Iowa.
[3:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So we've got a bunch of land and bunch of dogs and children and bees.
[4:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So this is kind of where I write from and have my little spiritual direction practice.
[4:07] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, absolutely.
[4:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We'll start here.
[4:09] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, what is a spiritual director for people that don't know because I don't think I was fully familiar with that term prior to getting to know you a little bit through your book.
[4:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, that's such a great question.
[4:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's really why I wrote a bunch of the book, a friend of mine who's in acquisitions editor said, you know, I don't think many people in our little bubble of the world know what this is.
[4:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it sounds maybe a little scary.
[4:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Maybe a little out there.
[4:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Can you just explain this so
[4:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's a great question.
[4:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The spiritual direction is just a shared contemplative prayer practice, and it's actually been around for a really long time, like since the early days of the church.
[4:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's a place where you come to slow down to close the door on all the loud, distracting parts of the world and to just settle into the presence of God together.
[4:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And one of the gifts of the practice is the shared component,
[5:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: you'd think with a title like spiritual director that my role would be pretty directive, but it's actually not.
[5:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The role of the spiritual director is it's primarily to listen, to listen compassionately to the person sitting across from me, and then to listen for the movements of God in the session and bring those in together.
[5:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We like to joke that God's actual spiritual director, and we're just listening
[5:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So directions really are kind of shared discernment to people come together and prayer listening for where God is moving in that person's life and my role is not to give advice or tell them what God has to say but just to create space where we can be with God together.
[5:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Absolutely.
[5:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I will say this practice was new to me and I've grown up in the church.
[5:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I was catholic did my first communion and then we moved to a non-denominational church and have, I think that we're in a Presbyterian church right now.
[5:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm not Presbyterian.
[5:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I consider myself just non-denominational.
[5:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But all that to say, some of the things that you talk about in this book and or that I've read in John Mark Colmer's books, like just some of the stuff is new.
[6:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: and very appealing to this, I'm trying to think of what I'm trying to say.
[6:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It just is very new and seems like the meditative part of it may be seems to Eastern religion and so it's something that we strayed away from, but I think there's so much value in it and I'm finding it to be really rich now that I'm nearing 25, 30 years plus on my own
[6:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, I always think about, you know, that verse that says to love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, I think at least in my faith tradition, we're really good at loving God with all of our mind and with all of our strength, like we have tons of tools for study and a great, and we have tons of opportunities to serve and bless the world, and that's great.
[6:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But when it comes to like heart and soul, I didn't grow up having very many resources for cultivating love for God in those capacities.
[7:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So this was a fun thing for me to discover in my 30s when I sat down for the first time and was like, Oh, there are ways to grow my felt sense of the love of God.
[7:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I think I needed that more than I realized.
[7:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I think you're right.
[7:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think our culture in general is kind of gravitating towards that.
[7:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, which, again, I'm sure that listeners are thinking that sounds lovely.
[7:23] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I would like a time with a speaker and prayer and yet those unhurried moments are tricky to come by.
[7:30] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think we're like, oh, we can just do prayer by ourselves.
[7:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, I have time this morning before my kids get up or I can do it at the end of the day.
[7:36] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't necessarily have time to go opt into a prayer room with somewhat, but I guess this is a two-part question.
[7:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Why, one, why should we, and two, how can we make it happen?
[7:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It makes me actually think about how I started spiritual direction myself when I first started attending.
[7:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I was a young mom and I'd had three boys in four years.
[7:59] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I don't remember much of that early 2010s, it's all blurry.
[8:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I remember at the time telling a friend, I am so burned out.
[8:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I need something for my spirit because I'm giving, giving, giving all day, which I love.
[8:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But I need to go somewhere where I'm fed.
[8:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so she kind of said, hey, go check out this thing.
[8:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're going to love it, spiritual direction.
[8:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I actually did it because the plays I attended had free child care.
[8:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So that was my like push me in.
[8:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just wanted to have a couple of coffee while it was still hot and talk to grownups.
[8:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I had no idea how much I'd need this.
[8:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So what I found in that practice was,
[8:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It was so nice to have someone guard the door for me to be like, for this one hour, your iPhone's not going to be dinging.
[8:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You're not going to have a checklist going in the back of your mind, but all the chores and activities you need to get done today.
[8:53] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm going to protect this silence.
[8:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And if you just want to sit here in silence, my director told me once, you can take a nap if you want.
[9:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And just that relaxed kind of way of being I needed someone to protect that boundary for me and then what I found that was really beautiful and what I hope the book offers a little bit of is that the gifts of that practice didn't have to happen in the room.
[9:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: that they trickled out into my everyday life where I didn't have to carve out time to be alone with God.
[9:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I mean, listen, I love that, but life happens and there are days where you're like, if I get a shower today, it's gonna be a really good day.
[9:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This contemplative magic place with Jesus, you know, maybe isn't gonna happen.
[9:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So what I was hoping for in the book and what I found from the practice was that these little moments crept into my day where I could recognize God was already with me because of the work we did in spiritual direction.
[9:50] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it became not more, but just accepting what was.
[9:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, I underline quite a bit in your book, but in chapter a present to the Presence.
[10:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: You say, no combination of silence or attention will open the door to the Holy of Holies.
[10:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That curtain was torn down long ago.
[10:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't need to attain the presence of God because, as Richard were right, I am already in the presence of God.
[10:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: all that I need is awareness.
[10:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I mean, that's what you just said.
[10:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, he is with us.
[10:19] \[SPEAKER_00\]: We just aren't necessarily a tune.
[10:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: There's another quote I underlined somewhere within here about sacred grounds.
[10:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, it's all around us.
[10:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I don't know, again, that is so rich and very different from what I don't want to even say was taught to me growing up.
[10:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I just think people, again, weren't in tune.
[10:37] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think that this has grown in me,
[10:41] \[SPEAKER_00\]: probably a lot because of nature.
[10:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It sounds like you're in a place where you have a lot of access to nature and some pretty cool things.
[10:48] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I do think that as I've grown and gone out, I just can feel it a lot.
[10:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I feel a lot more.
[10:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Is this making sense?
[10:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: The sacred ground all around us.
[10:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think that's something that you've kind of spoken to it.
[10:59] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I don't know if you want to say anything else about that.
[11:02] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Well, it was fun, as I was anticipating being here with you today, to think about your listeners and minimalism, and to kind of draw that connection to we're not having more here.
[11:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're actually resisting this idea of spiritual maximizing.
[11:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We're not going to add more books, we're not going to add more service projects, we're not going to add more study.
[11:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: All of those things are great.
[11:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: but we can cram our lives so full of that that we end up spiritually spent and exhausted.
[11:31] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so things like nature and recognizing God's presence with us in the mundane is a way to like, tend to the spiritual self without having to cram more and more into our lives of faith.
[11:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yes, absolutely.
[11:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I did find it.
[11:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It was there are no unsecret places.
[11:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And it's from Wendellberry.
[11:49] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Why do you hate this weakness and such a loss?
[11:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But I knew I saw that in there.
[11:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: That leads me into my next question though.
[11:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you're suggesting that we don't need to add on.
[12:00] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And yet it is important to have those moments of contemplative prayer where you are being quiet and you are slowing down.
[12:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's not to say you can't have prayer while you're folding laundry or
[12:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: issues, but carving up time for that silence and that quiet time is so important.
[12:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I would ask you what shifted for you when you started opting into that intentionally.
[12:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's a great question.
[12:25] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I would say the thing that shifted.
[12:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: was that a little goes a long way and that I also craved it more.
[12:37] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So the more I created these little moments to exhale into rest, the more I wanted it.
[12:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And the more I noticed that it doesn't have to be an everyday kind of thing, that my longing is gonna draw me back to the presence of God to those quiet moments that there are seasons to be busy.
[12:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and fall, intending to kids and active, and that that desire he plans in those quiet places will draw me back again, and that really surprised me.
[13:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I tend to be a little bit of a like, perfectionist and overachiever, so I'd say, OK, solid student silence, those are really good.
[13:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm going to schedule them, I'm going to book them, there's a way to do this.
[13:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And you know, that falls apart in two minutes when you're a mom, you just can't keep all your plans.
[13:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So, well,
[13:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: what surprised me was how much it just kind of got into me and became a home base.
[13:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Going back was fantastic and it was wonderful to have either recurring session with my director every month.
[13:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So I know on the second Wednesday for one hour I am meeting with her via zoom and to just have that on my calendar was like a great touch point.
[13:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it became somewhere I just wanted to be.
[13:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm glad that you just keep the answers or kind of bleeding into my next questions for you.
[13:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So you say that this book is an invitation to reinvigorate a richness of relationship.
[13:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think one thing that stood out to me was you talk about fun and having fun with God.
[14:02] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that was something very new to me.
[14:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I always say I struggle to find fun in my day to day.
[14:08] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like things are fine, but the fun element.
[14:11] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I just thought that was,
[14:13] \[SPEAKER_00\]: not whimsical, but just a different approach to our relationship with God.
[14:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Again, kind of reinvigorating how we're feeling and not wanting to be burned out anymore.
[14:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I'll let you speak to fun.
[14:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, you know, I showed up with my spiritual director a few months ago now, and I was so burned out that I said, look, I've been writing this book, I've been directing people, I've been parenting my children, I'm done with words, I don't have words today, and so how do I pray?
[14:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she said, do you have a construction paper?
[14:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I said, yeah, so I have construction paper and markers, and so for the next hour we spent together, it was primarily quiet, but she kind of guided me through a playful prayer where the way I created or the images on a page.
[15:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: those spoke for me when I couldn't speak for myself.
[15:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So even in a darker season at the time, that playful element really delighted me.
[15:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I found that since then, all the slightly playful contemplative practices tend to be my favorite.
[15:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like, I love the imagination and prayer in the way you can enter into a story of Jesus by imagining what I might smell like to him or where you can, I have a whole shelf over here
[15:29] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and so to sit down and to collage my prayers, it's all quite playful and light-hearted.
[15:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I get a sense of God playing with me as opposed to having, I can get into a transactional mode with him.
[15:40] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I say things, you say things, we set a plan, we go conquer stuff, and that playfulness allows you to just be next to side by side with God, and also kind of tending to the tired part of yourself.
[15:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, a few things I underlined in here and I'm glad that you used the word imagination because I think that was the word I would find and fun was the one that popped up to me.
[16:04] \[SPEAKER_00\]: is the act or power of forming a mental image of something not present to the senses or never before a holy perceived in reality.
[16:12] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then you say imagination, it seems, is not a departure from reality, but a means of engaging in it.
[16:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then lastly, I underlines, but Jesus knows things don't have to be real in order to be true.
[16:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Sometimes the gifts of story, imagination, and metaphor help us wrap our minds around mystery in ways that logic, in fact,
[16:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And again, I think all of that is just something that I keep coming back to, just like how deep our faith can be.
[16:39] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it was just something for me, if like USU check-off Sundays, yes, I'm gonna pray at the end of my day or over my meal.
[16:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: But it's like, no, this is literally woven.
[16:47] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Our relationship is woven into the fabric of our being.
[16:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's just much deeper.
[16:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Maybe this is growing, was done, we're growing an age.
[16:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm just like, this is so much deeper and richer, but actually enjoyable.
[16:58] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Like, it's not just something I check off anymore.
[17:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think, you know, in so many of the early stages of our faith, we're building skills, right?
[17:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: How to pray, how to learn, or knowledge of God, how we show up in community.
[17:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And then it comes to point where we want to go deeper, like you were saying, where we want it to be a place we inhabit, not just an action we do.
[17:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: absolutely.
[17:21] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I do want to touch on specifically in your book you have a practice at the end of every chapter which is really helpful but I would ask you why you chose to do one at the end of every chapter and it's still listeners and what I mean by these practices.
[17:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah each chapter explores a little bit of a story of something I've discovered in contemplative prayer.
[17:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: and then I wanted to give the readers an opportunity to dabble at home, because some people may be able to carve out in their lives a time to meet with a spiritual director, which is fantastic.
[17:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But other people might not have that kind of capacity.
[17:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I wanted there to be options where people could say, yeah, this is interesting, but I don't know if I buy in yet.
[18:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I want to explore myself.
[18:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So each of these practices walks through most of the more pretty ancient practices that walks through a practice and kind of gives you a step by step to how to explore and how to play.
[18:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I actually, I ran them all by my husband who is we are so wired differently like he is not the kind of guy to be excited about
[18:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: A lot of these brought out of his comfort zone and what he said is he was reading these is like, Oh, you know, you hear the words and you maybe get a little turned off to some of that language and then you get in there and you're like, Oh, this is easy.
[18:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is great.
[18:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is not a scary practice.
[18:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So my hope was that each of these exercises would provide ways for people to play a little bit to try out something.
[18:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And even, you know, as you read through them and really like certain ones, I think there's a time to skip back.
[18:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's not a book that has to be read from beginning to end.
[18:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You might be browsing the table of contents and say, oh, this like deep, meditative way of being with the scripture, I kind of want that right now, and you can just skip right to that chapter.
[19:09] \[SPEAKER_01\]: or you could say breath prayers, the middle of the night and I'm exhausted and I need to remember that breath prayer thing to help me get to sleep.
[19:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You can just turn to that chapter and go through the exercise.
[19:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So my hope had also been that this would be really accessible for small groups or friends that you can sit down with your community and say, hey, let's play with some of these and see how that goes for us.
[19:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: you also have the part on burning bushes to notice, and then also the one on lament.
[19:42] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I think it's really important.
[19:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I do do appreciate a book that is just very approachable for moms and or just someone that does have a busy schedule at once to tap into it.
[19:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And then again, this just allows us to see so much deeper into our day to day how it's all around us.
[19:57] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yes, yeah, I actually tell a story in one of the chapters that I think is a perfect little picture of this.
[20:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it was when my boys were a little younger, they were middle school age.
[20:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And they were in that awkward season where they don't want to talk to you.
[20:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So every day they'd come home from school and I would say, how did you, how was your day?
[20:16] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Fine.
[20:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, who did you talk to?
[20:19] \[SPEAKER_01\]: friends.
[20:21] \[SPEAKER_01\]: What did you learn stuff?
[20:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I thought, okay, this is ridiculous.
[20:25] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I need to get these humans to talk to me.
[20:27] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And right about that time, a friend of mine posted on her Facebook is brilliant idea.
[20:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: She had gotten a big bag of skittles.
[20:35] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And she put them in a glass jar, sat at in the middle of the table.
[20:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So when the kids came home from school,
[20:41] \[SPEAKER_01\]: they could sit around the table and grab as many skittles as they wanted.
[20:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But for every skittle, they had to answer a question about their day.
[20:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So if you pulled out a red one, you had to say something you read or learned.
[20:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you pulled out an orange one, it was something awesome that happened, yellow one was something not so awesome.
[20:58] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The purple one was classmates or teacher news.
[21:01] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But then the green one was our least favorite.
[21:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: None of my kids wanted the green one, because you had to say a time you had shown or received kindness.
[21:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And at the time, you know, middle schools were off, tart for everybody.
[21:14] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So you'd have these boys who are like, everyone is hormonal and angry, and they say mean things in the locker room, and they're mean girls at my table.
[21:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Like they just, they didn't buy in, that kind of was all around them.
[21:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: But eventually, green would be like the only thing left in the jar, and they were desperate enough for some candy that they start to think about it.
[21:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And sure enough, they started to notice like these little moments of kindness.
[21:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Sometimes it would just be as small as, someone held the door for me today, or, hey, my brother found my homework downstairs and brought it up, and that was pretty kind.
[21:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They started to see that the world was actually a much kinder place than they thought.
[21:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They just had to learn to look for it.
[21:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I think that that is such a little microcosm of what I hope this book is.
[22:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I hope this is like the Green Skittle, where as we sit in these practices, we start to say, oh, God is actually everywhere.
[22:08] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And as I play here, I'm learning to see.
[22:10] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm learning to see him next to me as I watch dishes.
[22:13] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I'm learning to see him as a part of the stop lights or driving my kids to school that he is right here and that all of this is holy
[22:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, that's so good.
[22:28] \[SPEAKER_00\]: One thing I wanted to end on, you say in the follow season, you're talking about how you went out to your garden and you're getting it prepped for the season of winter, which is necessary, but you said, I tend to ask what's next instead of asking what's here.
[22:45] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And I wanted to write that down and post it somewhere in my house because I'm very much that person.
[22:51] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's always like, what's next thing coming?
[22:54] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And that is somewhat of the antithesis of what I preach here.
[22:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I'm going to most moms.
[22:57] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's so much about presence and not having the excess.
[23:01] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And yeah, I'm not guaranteed tomorrow to having that mindset as well.
[23:06] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So I don't know, I just, I think that was one of the biggest things here towards the end of your book that I was really left with, again, centering myself for Manning present.
[23:15] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What's here?
[23:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What is here?
[23:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What is good here?
[23:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Maybe what are some things that I need to pull up?
[23:20] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Not deluding myself to think that those weeds aren't there and need plucked out.
[23:24] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So, I don't know, just so much goodness in here, Laura.
[23:27] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Do you have any other final word of encouragement you want to leave with the listeners before we wrap up?
[23:32] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think
[23:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So the word of encouragement that I would leave to listeners is that
[23:39] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They're probably doing a lot better than they think, and that God has already a lot closer than expected.
[23:46] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When I was writing the manuscript, one of my early titles for it was enough for now.
[23:51] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it was really that idea that we have enough for the present moment.
[23:55] \[SPEAKER_01\]: God is with us, he is beside us, whatever negative emotion, whatever sinful behavior, whatever magical sweet moment with our kids.
[24:05] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We have everything we need.
[24:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: He's right there at the edge of our fingertips, waiting to connect and our only work and delight is to notice in respond.
[24:16] \[SPEAKER_00\]: So so good.
[24:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, Laura, where can listeners find you and connect with you online or grab a copy of your book if they want to learn more and have these practices in their hands?
[24:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Yeah, my website, LauraCoffman.com, that provides you link to the books, which is a target Barnes and Noble Amazon bigger books.
[24:36] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And there's also for anyone who's interested in spiritual direction.
[24:38] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I have a little tab at the top of my website where you can click a link and see directors in your area.
[24:44] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So if you want to meet in person, you can kind of search that way.
[24:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: If you want to find someone you can meet with virtually, and most directors will offer kind of a 15-minute chat.
[24:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: just to see if this is something you're interested in.
[24:54] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So for any listeners who are kind of feeling that tap on the shoulder and thinking this might be a good thing for me, they can find all of that in my book on the website.
[25:03] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Okay, well as you wrap things up here, I'm going to ask you the final two questions I ask every guest and the first one is what has been a beneficial resource in your life that you want to share with the listeners and I'm not going to let you say spiritual, finding a
[25:18] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh man, no that's easy.
[25:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The praise you go podcast.
[25:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I am a fan girl about.
[25:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's a podcast that releases a daily contemplative reflection and then it does a slow meditation on a scripture.
[25:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it might, I think today we were the story of Peter in the fish and they just read the story and then they give you a couple questions to meditate on and a little space.
[25:43] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So within the podcast you've got 45 seconds of silence to
[25:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's great.
[25:48] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I do it while I'm curling my hair.
[25:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I do it while I'm in the pickup lane at school.
[25:52] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's really, really easy to fold into your everyday life.
[25:56] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It also has some really fantastic guided practices that I talk about in my book, so the examin practice is on there.
[26:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: You can listen to it and just follow along.
[26:06] \[SPEAKER_01\]: There's some imaginative, contemplations of some great Bible stories that you can
[26:11] \[SPEAKER_01\]: be led in.
[26:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So if you don't, if reading it and trying to do it feels a little tricky, they've got beautiful guided ones.
[26:17] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And it's from the UK, so everyone's accent is magic.
[26:20] \[SPEAKER_01\]: It's great to listen to.
[26:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Awesome.
[26:22] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I will.
[26:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I just subscribe.
[26:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That's awesome.
[26:24] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I can't wait to
[26:26] \[SPEAKER_01\]: They also have a good resources for kids too.
[26:30] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So there is an examine for kids that I used to do with my boys at night.
[26:34] \[SPEAKER_01\]: We would curl up in their room and I would push play it's five minutes and it would just kind of guide them through thinking about their day where they saw God, where they maybe did some harm or some harm was done to them, where they wanna rest with him, it's so beautiful.
[26:49] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So it's a really easy way to fold into your daily rhythms with your kids.
[26:52] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah, awesome.
[26:53] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Thanks so much for sharing that.
[26:55] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Final question.
[26:56] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What is something that you can't stop talking about?
[27:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This should probably be a more tangible answer.
[27:03] \[SPEAKER_01\]: The truth is, I keep raving about God's non-enxious presence.
[27:10] \[SPEAKER_01\]: Oh, because I'm just an anxious person and I think I can very quickly
[27:15] \[SPEAKER_01\]: think he's stressed out or mad at me like if I see something in my life that's not what I think it should be.
[27:23] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I get quite stressed and it would have had a hard summer, a lot of stuff with some kid medical diagnoses and with some prayers that were answered in the way that may be angry.
[27:33] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And so I've been shown up to prayer not bringing my A game and bringing those angry emotions and I think I can quickly be like, oh, gotta get it together.
[27:42] \[SPEAKER_01\]: This is not how you should be.
[27:45] \[SPEAKER_01\]: And I find that God's just not stressed out by that.
[27:47] \[SPEAKER_01\]: That when I show up with my big negative emotions or pain or spicy prayers, if he lets me borrow his calm, like, you know, when you have a toddler, that's one of the things they always say when they're throwing a tantrum, they're like,
[28:00] \[SPEAKER_01\]: don't go into their crazy, extend your calm.
[28:04] \[SPEAKER_01\]: I think I've had a like, felt sense of that the summer.
[28:07] \[SPEAKER_01\]: When I've been a little crazy in the season, and he is just not stressed.
[28:12] \[SPEAKER_01\]: So the non-anxious energy of God, I'm just obsessed with these days.
[28:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[28:18] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I mean, it's that idea of a piece that surpasses understanding, like, you're feeling it.
[28:22] \[SPEAKER_00\]: It's like, somehow I don't need to lean into that.
[28:26] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I can let that overwhelm me, but I do have this whisper of peace, even if it's small boys, you know?
[28:32] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Yeah.
[28:33] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Well, Laura, thanks so much for joining me.
[28:35] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I hope, I know that we have encouraged listeners, so thanks for joining me.
[28:43] \[SPEAKER_00\]: What did you think of the episode?
[28:44] \[SPEAKER_00\]: I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
[28:46] \[SPEAKER_00\]: To learn more about today's guest, including links, resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at minimalismomspodcast.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as my book Minimalismoms Living and Parenting with Simplicity, or other ways to connect or work with me online.
[29:05] \[SPEAKER_00\]: If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
[29:14] \[SPEAKER_00\]: And leave a rating or review of your favorite episode.
[29:17] \[SPEAKER_00\]: Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends and social media is very helpful and will encourage others on their journey to think more and do with us.

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