# Raising Kids Who Can Handle Hard Things \[with Ant Williams\]

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 26 May 2026, 16 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/2b29b344-2520-492f-b394-b44e00c6c438/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

What if protecting our kids too much is actually holding them back? In this powerful conversation, Dr Justin Coulson sits down with extreme athlete, sports psychologist, and author Ant Williams to unpack why so many kids struggle with pressure, discomfort, and resilience — and what parents can do differently. From diving beneath Arctic ice to coaching elite athletes under extreme stress, Ant shares the mindset shifts that help people stay calm, capable, and courageous when life gets hard. Together, they explore the parenting habits that unintentionally weaken resilience, the fine line between support and overprotection, and why kids need opportunities to struggle, fail, and recover. If your child avoids hard things, melts down under pressure, or constantly says “I can’t”, this episode will change the way you respond. KEY POINTS • Why resilience is built through challenge — not comfort • The difference between being a safety net and a shield • How parents accidentally reinforce anxiety and avoidance • Why kids need evidence they can handle hard things • The long-term risks of wrapping children in cotton wool • How your reactions to stress become your child’s template • The simple “fish hook” strategy for staying calm under pressure • Why modelling courage matters more than preaching confidence QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “Our reaction becomes their template.” RESOURCES MENTIONED • Let It Be Tough by Ant Williams • Resilience: Developing strength, calm, & kindness in our kids \[a Happy Families Webinar\] ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS • Resist rescuing your child from every uncomfortable situation • Encourage small, manageable challenges that build confidence • Talk openly about your own fears and how you handle them • Stay calm during stressful moments — your child is learning from your response • Focus on supporting your child, not shielding them • Help kids reflect after setbacks instead of immediately fixing things See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. I know it's
[0:08] Speaker 1: just been Mother's Day and I'm not supposed to get
[0:10] Speaker 1: that excited about September and Father's Day yet. But if
[0:13] Speaker 1: you have a man in your life, a hubby, a father,
[0:15] Speaker 1: a dad who doesn't like to read, I've got the
[0:18] Speaker 1: perfect Father's Day present.
[0:19] Speaker 2: It's a book.
[0:19] Speaker 1: I know that sounds weird, but I've just finished reading
[0:22] Speaker 1: the most amazing book and I've reached out to the
[0:24] Speaker 1: author and asked if he would come on my podcast,
[0:26] Speaker 1: and he said yes. The book is called Let It
[0:28] Speaker 1: Be Tough. It's the story of Aunt Williams, a two
[0:32] Speaker 1: time world record holder in ice diving. And when I
[0:35] Speaker 1: say ice diving, I'm talking long breath holds, diving seventy
[0:39] Speaker 1: plus meters under the ice, or swimming one hundred and
[0:41] Speaker 1: eighty plus meters under an ice shelf. I mean, this
[0:45] Speaker 1: stuff is extreme, it's frightening. Let It Be Tough is
[0:47] Speaker 1: about mental toughness, it's about resilience. It's gripping. Oh my goodness,
[0:52] Speaker 1: I couldn't put it down. I read it in like
[0:54] Speaker 1: two reading sessions and we're talking two hundred and eighty
[0:56] Speaker 1: pages of writing like that. This is a proper book
[0:59] Speaker 1: and it just has so many great stories and and
[1:03] Speaker 1: is going to join me next to talk about his book,
[1:05] Speaker 1: Let It Be Tough, and also why every dad needs
[1:07] Speaker 1: this for Father's Day in September. Get it now though,
[1:10] Speaker 1: We're going to talk to Aunt next on the Happy
[1:11] Speaker 1: Families podcast. Stay with us, good day. Welcome to the
[1:16] Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, where you get real parenting solutions every
[1:19] Speaker 1: single day. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Mina's
[1:22] Speaker 1: doctor Justin Colson, and today I'm joined by a good
[1:24] Speaker 1: friend of mine, but also somebody that I've looked up
[1:27] Speaker 1: to from the minute that I met him because of
[1:30] Speaker 1: the extraordinary life that he's lived and the things that
[1:32] Speaker 1: he's done. And now it's published in a memoir called
[1:34] Speaker 1: Let It Be Tough. Aunt William's Welcome to Happy Family's podcast.
[1:38] Speaker 3: Thank you Justin. What an amazing introduction. It's absolutely pleasure
[1:41] Speaker 3: to be here.
[1:42] Speaker 1: There are some people who when you spend time with them,
[1:44] Speaker 1: they elevate you, they enlarge you, They just make you
[1:47] Speaker 1: feel like you're a better person, or you can be
[1:49] Speaker 1: a better person than who you are. You're one of
[1:51] Speaker 1: those people for me, and I wish we've got to
[1:53] Speaker 1: spend more time together. I think you and I talk
[1:55] Speaker 1: to each other maybe once or twice a year, and
[1:58] Speaker 1: we get together face to face once every five years.
[2:01] Speaker 1: So I'm really delighted to have you on the podcast.
[2:05] Speaker 1: You've heard my introduction, you know how much I've raved
[2:07] Speaker 1: about the book, So let's just crack straight into it.
[2:09] Speaker 1: I want to start with a question. You've dived under
[2:13] Speaker 1: the ice to seventy how many meters? Seventy seventy Yeah,
[2:20] Speaker 1: something like seventy meters, So that means that you've held
[2:23] Speaker 1: your breath and swum one hundred and forty meters because
[2:26] Speaker 1: you had to get down there, and then you had
[2:27] Speaker 1: to get back up, and you had to get back
[2:28] Speaker 1: up to the same hole that you went into because
[2:31] Speaker 1: you're on an ice lake in the Arctic Circle. And
[2:34] Speaker 1: then you swam the longest distance ever swum under the ice,
[2:37] Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty two meters, performed in total darkness,
[2:41] Speaker 1: in essentially as close to zero degree order as you
[2:44] Speaker 1: can get. You've coached big wave surfers, Moto GP riders,
[2:49] Speaker 1: extreme sports competitors. Are you a thrill seekert?
[2:53] Speaker 2: No, definitely not a thrill seekert.
[2:56] Speaker 1: Sorry, everybody just spilt their coffee when you said no, right.
[3:00] Speaker 3: Well, I can understand from the outside and looking at
[3:03] Speaker 3: what I do and making that very quick assumption that
[3:06] Speaker 3: I am a risk taker. Well, no, to use your words,
[3:09] Speaker 3: that I'm a thrill seeker, someone who's quite reckless. But
[3:12] Speaker 3: actually it couldn't be further from the truth. I see
[3:15] Speaker 3: myself as someone who does take positive, calculated risks. But
[3:19] Speaker 3: what you don't see is just how controlled it is,
[3:21] Speaker 3: how much preparation goes in, how many years of practice
[3:25] Speaker 3: and training and development goes in to get to the
[3:27] Speaker 3: point where you can progressively learn how to take on
[3:30] Speaker 3: these types of challenges, and there's we're all magic and
[3:33] Speaker 3: doing it. Once you get to that point, there are
[3:35] Speaker 3: incredibly thrilling adventures to be able to go and have.
[3:38] Speaker 3: And so no, I don't see myself as someone who's
[3:40] Speaker 3: a thrill seeker. I'm just someone who loves to put
[3:44] Speaker 3: themselves into unique challenges and engineer everything around it so
[3:49] Speaker 3: that I can perform at my best despite the pressures
[3:52] Speaker 3: that I'm putting myself under.
[3:54] Speaker 1: I look at the story of your life. You're a
[3:58] Speaker 1: sports psychologist. You found yourself in the deep and coaching
[4:02] Speaker 1: extreme sports people. In fact, you found yourself in a
[4:06] Speaker 1: very deep end when you were literally put in front
[4:07] Speaker 1: of a room of football players with no notice whatsoever,
[4:10] Speaker 1: and supposed to motivate them to get through a game
[4:13] Speaker 1: that they were convinced they were going to lose, the
[4:15] Speaker 1: high stakes game. The whole book, Let It Be Tough,
[4:18] Speaker 1: is about performing under pressure, performing under pressure in many cases,
[4:23] Speaker 1: in life threatening, death defying situations. But right now, as
[4:28] Speaker 1: a parenting expert, and this is the reason that I
[4:29] Speaker 1: got you on here, like we can talk about your
[4:31] Speaker 1: extraordinary exploits, I just want people to read the book.
[4:34] Speaker 1: It's so much fun. But the thing that I'm coming
[4:38] Speaker 1: up against again and again and again almost daily as
[4:42] Speaker 1: parents who say my kids don't want to do hard things.
[4:47] Speaker 1: My kids they feel a little bit of pressure and
[4:50] Speaker 1: they shrink, they hide behind my legs, and then they
[4:56] Speaker 1: look at me with serious expressions and say things like
[5:00] Speaker 1: I want my three year old to do better, But.
[5:05] Speaker 2: I think you're onto something. Yeah, Well, whether.
[5:07] Speaker 1: They're three or thirteen or twenty three, parents are consistently
[5:10] Speaker 1: saying that their kids are not resilient like we were.
[5:14] Speaker 1: Now there is some data to support that. I actually
[5:17] Speaker 1: think that Quite often we forget just how nervous we
[5:21] Speaker 1: were when we were in certain situations, and how much
[5:23] Speaker 1: we didn't want to do things, and how many things
[5:24] Speaker 1: we probably bailed on. But consistently, I don't want to
[5:27] Speaker 1: go to school. I don't want to go to school camp.
[5:28] Speaker 1: I don't want to do the oral presentation. I don't
[5:30] Speaker 1: want to do the exam. I don't want to try
[5:33] Speaker 1: out for the team. I don't want to try out
[5:34] Speaker 1: for the theater. This stuff comes up again and again
[5:38] Speaker 1: and again, using all of your psychology background, your sports psyche,
[5:42] Speaker 1: you're working with extreme athletes, your own under pressure performance requirements.
[5:48] Speaker 1: What one or two things that jump out at you
[5:50] Speaker 1: as things that parents might do to help their kids
[5:55] Speaker 1: when they're facing pressure and they're saying, I can't, I can't,
[5:59] Speaker 1: it's too hard.
[6:00] Speaker 3: Well, I think the first thing is that parents, as parents,
[6:03] Speaker 3: we play such a vital role in shaping their response
[6:05] Speaker 3: to pressure. I mean, we all want our kids to
[6:08] Speaker 3: participate in things that they enjoy and also encourage them
[6:11] Speaker 3: through those moments of things that when they start to
[6:14] Speaker 3: get tough. So it might be the life saving tournament
[6:17] Speaker 3: we're a way through a little bit bigger today, it
[6:19] Speaker 3: might be the exam where they just think, I'm no
[6:21] Speaker 3: good at mathematics and all these situations, how we respond
[6:26] Speaker 3: is so critical. We want them to be able to
[6:29] Speaker 3: cope in those moments, and it's going to have such
[6:31] Speaker 3: a big character building effect on them in that moment
[6:34] Speaker 3: and through their lives. These are skills that they're going
[6:36] Speaker 3: to take for the rest of their life, and so
[6:38] Speaker 3: what we do in terms of how we work with
[6:41] Speaker 3: them to participate, encourage and support them is huge. We
[6:47] Speaker 3: want them to be able to make mistakes and errors,
[6:50] Speaker 3: stuffer losses and failures, and normalize it. We want that
[6:55] Speaker 3: to be okay. It's just part of life skills and
[6:57] Speaker 3: learning how to cope when things don't go your way,
[7:00] Speaker 3: and so we need to be there to support them
[7:02] Speaker 3: and challenge them and encourage them. But we've got to
[7:04] Speaker 3: get this balance right to what extent we push them
[7:08] Speaker 3: into things versus take a backseat where it's more my
[7:13] Speaker 3: role is to encourage and to make sure that they're
[7:15] Speaker 3: challenging themselves without overstepping their mark. So, like, I love
[7:19] Speaker 3: the question your post, So what do we do? So
[7:21] Speaker 3: I think the first thing that we do is we
[7:22] Speaker 3: need to get this balance right between challenging them and
[7:25] Speaker 3: supporting them. So if your parent that always says, oh,
[7:30] Speaker 3: you don't have to do it, if this makes you
[7:31] Speaker 3: feel uncomfortable, then our level of challenge is too low.
[7:35] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[7:35] Speaker 1: So that's kind of like the parent who says, your
[7:37] Speaker 1: emotions should be what guides all of our decisions.
[7:41] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
[7:43] Speaker 3: So if we're allowing the child to their emotions to
[7:46] Speaker 3: guide all the decisions, then then what's the child learning
[7:51] Speaker 3: in this? What's the child going to steer towards? It's
[7:53] Speaker 3: going to stare towards you being the person who risk
[7:56] Speaker 3: is them and comes in has a shield, but we don't.
[8:01] Speaker 3: We don't want you as a shield. We want you
[8:02] Speaker 3: as a safety net if they're in there and things
[8:04] Speaker 3: do go wrong, But we don't want you as a
[8:06] Speaker 3: shield because the shield gets.
[8:07] Speaker 2: In the way.
[8:08] Speaker 3: It's like you become the crush. You take over the
[8:10] Speaker 3: responsibility if things are uncomfortable or I don't like them.
[8:14] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[8:14] Speaker 1: The analogy that I always use here is that there
[8:16] Speaker 1: are dragons in everyone's lives, and our children have got
[8:19] Speaker 1: to go and slay the dragon. And if we keep
[8:21] Speaker 1: running forward with the shield and the sorder and slaying
[8:23] Speaker 1: the dragon for the kids then they don't get But
[8:26] Speaker 1: they've of course got to decide that this is a
[8:28] Speaker 1: dragon worth slaying as well. Right, Like, they're not going
[8:30] Speaker 1: to go and they're not going to go and fight
[8:31] Speaker 1: a dragon that we've decided we've picked for them. They've
[8:34] Speaker 1: got to have some say in it.
[8:35] Speaker 2: There's always the risk of these parents.
[8:37] Speaker 3: We push our kids into the things that we love,
[8:41] Speaker 3: r that we were good at, yes, right, because we
[8:43] Speaker 3: live vicariously through seeing them succeed in these things. But
[8:45] Speaker 3: if they don't enjoy it, they're like less, far less
[8:48] Speaker 3: likely to be pushing through and being resilient in the
[8:50] Speaker 3: moments where those things get tough.
[8:52] Speaker 2: Whereas if it's something that they.
[8:53] Speaker 3: Genuinely want to succeed, I want to get better out
[8:56] Speaker 3: the social group of other kids doing this thing. Is
[8:59] Speaker 3: there people, and they relate to the far more likely
[9:03] Speaker 3: without as much support from you to learn all these
[9:06] Speaker 3: lessons in a refaivorful way.
[9:08] Speaker 1: Hey, we need to take a quick break. But after
[9:10] Speaker 1: the break, what I think might be the toughest question
[9:13] Speaker 1: every parent will face when they're underpressure themselves and the
[9:16] Speaker 1: kids are watching. That's next stay with us. We're back
[9:27] Speaker 1: into the Happy Families podcast. I'm talking today to Aunt Williams,
[9:30] Speaker 1: the author of Let It Be Tough, which if you
[9:32] Speaker 1: have not already jotted it down and we will into
[9:35] Speaker 1: it in the show notes. But if you haven't put
[9:36] Speaker 1: it down on your list for I need to buy
[9:38] Speaker 1: this for my hobby or my partner or my dad
[9:40] Speaker 1: or somebody for Father's Day, it should be on the
[9:43] Speaker 1: top of your list. It's just that's the best. Don't
[9:44] Speaker 1: even wait for Father's Day. It'spy today, like I haven't
[9:47] Speaker 1: read by the weekend. It's that good anyway. And I
[9:49] Speaker 1: want to hit you up with a couple of lightning
[9:51] Speaker 1: round questions because these are my favorite interview questions. They're
[9:53] Speaker 1: the ones where you really don't want to pick aside,
[9:56] Speaker 1: you really want to come in with it. It depends
[9:57] Speaker 1: and start to extrapolate, but you're allowed. They've got like
[10:00] Speaker 1: five seconds as few words as possible to answer the question.
[10:04] Speaker 2: I'm ready, let's go.
[10:06] Speaker 1: Your kid is melting down in the supermarket, perform under
[10:09] Speaker 1: pressure or quietly abandoned the trolley, and pretend you don't know.
[10:13] Speaker 3: Them, Stay with them, stay really present, but don't console
[10:21] Speaker 3: to the point where they get away with it, and
[10:24] Speaker 3: find a chance later in a moment where the emotions
[10:28] Speaker 3: have run down to be able to reflect on it
[10:31] Speaker 3: with them.
[10:32] Speaker 1: The next one tricky one, but best pressure building experience
[10:37] Speaker 1: that you can give a child that doesn't involve some
[10:40] Speaker 1: sort of organized sport.
[10:41] Speaker 3: Look, I think expose you to challenge in any area
[10:44] Speaker 3: is going to be helpful as long as it's a
[10:47] Speaker 3: manageable step for them. Kids need evidence to know that
[10:52] Speaker 3: they can build their confidence right, So they need evidence
[10:54] Speaker 3: that things are working that they can push through. So
[10:56] Speaker 3: don't make it too tough too soon. Give them small
[10:59] Speaker 3: steps and let them see for themselves.
[11:02] Speaker 1: Finish this sentence. The most underrated thing that parents can do,
[11:06] Speaker 1: most underrated thing that parents can do to raise resilient
[11:09] Speaker 1: kids is.
[11:11] Speaker 3: Let them see you taking on challenges and staying calm
[11:15] Speaker 3: and composed, but also sharing your real fears.
[11:18] Speaker 2: So don't hide it.
[11:19] Speaker 3: Actually say well, actually think out loud for them, Well,
[11:23] Speaker 3: this is terrifying.
[11:24] Speaker 2: I'm going to give it a go anyway.
[11:26] Speaker 1: A parent who wraps their kid in cotton wool versus
[11:30] Speaker 1: a parent who throws them in the deep end, who's
[11:33] Speaker 1: doing more damage long term?
[11:35] Speaker 3: The person who wraps them in cotton wool and I
[11:37] Speaker 3: know that's controversial because the other obviously has the we
[11:44] Speaker 3: have a visceral reaction to the parent who pushes too
[11:47] Speaker 3: hard on their kids. But if I were to pick
[11:50] Speaker 3: between one of these for my kids, I would say
[11:53] Speaker 3: I would rather push them a little bit too hard
[11:55] Speaker 3: than wrap them in cotton wool and see them fail
[11:58] Speaker 3: to learn the most virtual lessons that life is going
[12:02] Speaker 3: to challenge them on on how to stay resilient and
[12:05] Speaker 3: how to cope with anxiety.
[12:06] Speaker 1: I love your response there. Okay, you and I could
[12:10] Speaker 1: talk for days. In fact, when we get together, we
[12:12] Speaker 1: definitely feel like we can talk for days. And the
[12:15] Speaker 1: last question today, because this is our podcast for time
[12:17] Speaker 1: for parents who just want answers now, is this. Kids
[12:20] Speaker 1: are always watching how we respond to pressure. You are
[12:23] Speaker 1: the perform under pressure guy. You're the guy who says,
[12:26] Speaker 1: let it be tough. What are some simple ways that
[12:31] Speaker 1: parents can model a healthy response to challenge in setbacks?
[12:34] Speaker 1: Because we all experience them every single day, whether it's
[12:36] Speaker 1: getting cut off in traffic, which is minor, but sometimes
[12:38] Speaker 1: when it happens, we act like it's not minor. It's major,
[12:42] Speaker 1: through to either a diagnosis or the loss of a job,
[12:44] Speaker 1: or an intera ability to pay a mortgage, or cost
[12:46] Speaker 1: of living or I mean, it's just such a long list.
[12:49] Speaker 1: What are the best ways that we can model healthy
[12:53] Speaker 1: responses to these challenges and setbacks?
[12:56] Speaker 3: Well, firstly, I think just that mine's set of knowing
[13:01] Speaker 3: that we must stay composed when things go wrong. Our
[13:05] Speaker 3: reaction becomes their templation. So what we do is going
[13:08] Speaker 3: to show up for them right throughout their lives. It's
[13:10] Speaker 3: the reality. I work with leaders who still struggle. Like
[13:14] Speaker 3: the number one thing I'm teaching leaders last fifteen years
[13:18] Speaker 3: is how to have a difficult conversation without getting too emotional.
[13:21] Speaker 3: Is how to give someone feedback on the performance without
[13:24] Speaker 3: marking or hiding the things that you don't actually like
[13:26] Speaker 3: about the performance. It's all these things, right, So we
[13:30] Speaker 3: need to make sure that we have the sense of
[13:33] Speaker 3: calm about us when we're going through those moments right
[13:36] Speaker 3: for ourselves. So when we get cut off in traffic,
[13:38] Speaker 3: that sort of thing. There's a couple of things that
[13:41] Speaker 3: you can do. There's this really simple thing that I'd
[13:46] Speaker 3: like to encourage people to do. When you know you
[13:49] Speaker 3: face moments of stress, I'm going to stick with your
[13:51] Speaker 3: example justin so You've got a forty five minute commute
[13:55] Speaker 3: to drop the kids at school and then get to work.
[13:57] Speaker 3: And you know that when someone cuts you off in traffic,
[13:59] Speaker 3: you get it's a trigger for you, right, So what
[14:02] Speaker 3: you do is, at the start of that, you go, today,
[14:05] Speaker 3: I'm going to be like a fish swimming in an ocean,
[14:08] Speaker 3: and as I was swimming through this ocean, there are
[14:10] Speaker 3: going to be all these lines, fish lines coming down
[14:12] Speaker 3: with hooks on them, and I'm my job is to
[14:16] Speaker 3: spot those fish hooks. Today when I'm driving through traffic,
[14:18] Speaker 3: it'll be the car that swears in front of me
[14:20] Speaker 3: without indicating. It'll be the guy who wins down his
[14:22] Speaker 3: window and yells some abuse at me, or the person
[14:25] Speaker 3: who's right on my butt algating me. And I'm going
[14:29] Speaker 3: to go, that's a fish hook. And if I bite that,
[14:33] Speaker 3: I'm out of the game. And my kids are going
[14:35] Speaker 3: to go, oh, Dad's someone who always clears up and
[14:39] Speaker 3: gets angry, and maybe that's what we're supposed to do.
[14:42] Speaker 3: So instead, I'm going to swim around those fish hooks,
[14:45] Speaker 3: recognize those a fish hooks. Because I'm the one who's
[14:48] Speaker 3: in control of my emotional reaction to what's happening around me.
[14:52] Speaker 3: No one else can control that but me. And therefore,
[14:55] Speaker 3: if I don't bite a fish hook, I get to
[14:57] Speaker 3: the school drop off and I feel great. I get
[14:59] Speaker 3: to work and I feel relaxed. That is the outcome
[15:02] Speaker 3: I want to start my day.
[15:04] Speaker 1: Don't bite the hook. I love it so simple, so simple,
[15:08] Speaker 1: so simple, And it's also the kind of thing that
[15:10] Speaker 1: you can teach kids when they're fighting with each other
[15:13] Speaker 1: and squabbling. And thanks so much for being with me
[15:16] Speaker 1: and for making my day by sharing your stories and
[15:19] Speaker 1: your insights that can help parents. On the Happy Families podcast.
[15:24] Speaker 3: Oh thank you, justin thank you so much for your
[15:26] Speaker 3: generous praise about my stories and my book.
[15:28] Speaker 2: I hope fathers enjoy it.
[15:30] Speaker 3: Incidentally, I think I've got a suspicion that more females
[15:33] Speaker 3: are buying this book than men at this stage. So
[15:35] Speaker 3: it's a good read, doesn't matter father day of coming
[15:39] Speaker 3: up or whatnot.
[15:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't mean to just put it straight into
[15:43] Speaker 1: a box there. My wife Kylie has also spent considerable
[15:47] Speaker 1: time in this book and loved it and was blown
[15:49] Speaker 1: away by the stories, so that we will link to
[15:53] Speaker 1: Let it be Tough by Aunt Williams in the show notes.
[15:57] Speaker 2: I recommend it highly.
[15:59] Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.
[16:02] Speaker 1: Nim Hammonds provides our research and additional support, and if
[16:05] Speaker 1: you would like more info about making your family happier,
[16:08] Speaker 1: visit happy families dot com dot au

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