# Hard Fun is More Fun

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 6 May 2026, 17 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/5875dd53-cc94-4744-bb04-b43400c6ee8d/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

What if the very thing we use to motivate kids is actually making them less motivated? New research from Harvard University reveals something surprising: when children play just for fun, they naturally seek challenge, take risks, and stretch themselves further. But the moment rewards, prizes, or competition enter the picture, kids start choosing the easiest possible path. In this fascinating Doctor’s Desk episode, Justin and Kylie unpack what this means for parenting, learning, sport, motivation, and raising resilient kids who actually enjoy hard things. If you’ve ever relied on sticker charts, rewards, bribery, or competition to encourage your child — this conversation may completely change the way you think about motivation. KEY POINTS • Harvard researchers found kids seek harder challenges when rewards are removed • Competition and prizes often reduce creativity, risk-taking, and persistence • Children are naturally wired for growth and exploration • “Hard fun” is often more rewarding than easy success • Motivation increases when kids feel ownership and autonomy • External rewards can shift focus away from learning and onto “getting the prize” • Parents can encourage resilience by focusing less on outcomes and more on challenge QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “The more you remove rewards and say, ‘Let’s just do this because it’s fun,’ the more kids seek challenge.” RESOURCES MENTIONED • Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn • Research published in Developmental Psychology ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS • Reduce reliance on rewards, bribes, and sticker charts • Let kids experiment, explore, and challenge themselves without pressure • Focus on effort, curiosity, and growth rather than winning • Create opportunities for “hard fun” through play, sport, and learning • Help children set personal goals instead of competing against others • Ask: “What challenge feels exciting to you?” instead of “How can you win?” See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:06] Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today it's
[0:08] Speaker 1: a doctor's Desk episode where we have a look at
[0:10] Speaker 1: some brand new, just published developmental psychology research from Harvard
[0:15] Speaker 1: University where we consider what's more fun, hard fun or
[0:21] Speaker 1: easy fun? Will kids enjoy playing for fun more or
[0:26] Speaker 1: less than playing to win? Just competition inspire kids or
[0:33] Speaker 1: turn them off? We find out that based on the
[0:36] Speaker 1: latest research. Next on the Happy Families Podcast, stay with us.
[0:42] Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Happy Families podcast, where you get
[0:45] Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's most
[0:48] Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. Kylie,
[0:52] Speaker 1: I have a question for you if I was to
[0:55] Speaker 1: say to you, what would you rather? Would you rather
[0:57] Speaker 1: have fun that's easy, you rather have fun that's hard?
[1:01] Speaker 1: That is, what is more fun for you doing something
[1:04] Speaker 1: that is relaxing and cruisy and doesn't require much of you?
[1:08] Speaker 1: Or is it more fun to do something that really
[1:10] Speaker 1: stretches you, pushes you and challenges you?
[1:13] Speaker 2: So I would I don't think there's a single answer
[1:16] Speaker 2: for this one. I think it really depends on Oh.
[1:19] Speaker 1: My goodness, you're speaking like a scientist, say, I.
[1:22] Speaker 2: Think It depends on where you're at in your life
[1:24] Speaker 2: and what your mood is.
[1:26] Speaker 1: It depends on what time of day it is.
[1:28] Speaker 2: Sometimes doing something really nice and relaxing feels fun, but
[1:33] Speaker 2: when you're feeling vital and invigorated and feel like you've
[1:39] Speaker 2: got lots of life. The most fun comes when you're
[1:44] Speaker 2: actually challenging yourself.
[1:45] Speaker 1: Okay, let's get a little bit more concrete. I want
[1:47] Speaker 1: to talk about a study that's just been conducted and published.
[1:51] Speaker 1: One of my favorite researchers in the whole wide world
[1:53] Speaker 1: is a research called Alison Gopnik. She is one of
[1:56] Speaker 1: about six or seven researchers who have all been involved
[1:59] Speaker 1: in this brand news study that has just been published.
[2:04] Speaker 1: The article's been published in Developmental Psychology. It's one of
[2:06] Speaker 1: the world's leading developmental psychology journals. And this this, this
[2:10] Speaker 1: is a place where people publish very serious, high quality studies.
[2:14] Speaker 1: So we're looking here at a specific game. Let me
[2:17] Speaker 1: give you the context of the game. Okay, Basically, you've
[2:21] Speaker 1: got a whole bunch of kids, their age between five
[2:24] Speaker 1: and ten, and the game is as follows. Here is
[2:27] Speaker 1: your mission. Knock down six blocks on this rectangular space
[2:31] Speaker 1: by tossing either bean bags or batons. I'm saying baton
[2:36] Speaker 1: like I'm French, I'm not bat batons, you know what
[2:39] Speaker 1: I like? Do you know what a baton is? A baton?
[2:41] Speaker 2: Yeah?
[2:41] Speaker 1: Okay? Do I say baton or baton? And now I
[2:43] Speaker 1: don't even know how to say the word. Help me here,
[2:45] Speaker 1: it's an it's a baton. But okay. So they're throwing
[2:49] Speaker 1: either a baton or bean bags at the six blocks, which,
[2:52] Speaker 1: if you're five to ten years old, could be potentially
[2:55] Speaker 1: it could be a lot of fun. So again, if
[2:57] Speaker 1: we go back to that question, do we want to
[2:59] Speaker 1: make this hard and challenging or do we want to
[3:02] Speaker 1: make sure that we win? Which one is going to
[3:05] Speaker 1: be more appealing to a five or ten year old
[3:07] Speaker 1: winning or being challenged?
[3:09] Speaker 2: I'm going to say being challenged every time.
[3:11] Speaker 1: All right, let's have a look at what the research
[3:13] Speaker 1: is found. So essentially, they talked to these kids and said,
[3:17] Speaker 1: there are two different ways that you can play the game.
[3:19] Speaker 1: You can either try to knock down all the blocks
[3:21] Speaker 1: in order to win stickers. Okay, so you can win,
[3:25] Speaker 1: or you can just play it for fun. And by
[3:27] Speaker 1: playing it for fun, that might mean that you might
[3:30] Speaker 1: decide to modify the game. In fact, you can modify
[3:32] Speaker 1: the game whether you're trying to win or if you're
[3:34] Speaker 1: playing for fun. You can do whatever you like. Here
[3:36] Speaker 1: there aren't really any rules. So you might change the
[3:39] Speaker 1: throwing distance and that's going to affect your ability to win.
[3:42] Speaker 1: Or you could just change the color of the bean
[3:44] Speaker 1: bags and the batons. The batons, I can't say it.
[3:46] Speaker 1: I'm still stuck on it. The batons. That's obviously not
[3:49] Speaker 1: going to affect the chance of winning, but it might
[3:51] Speaker 1: be more fun because you get to throw the red
[3:52] Speaker 1: one and the blue one and the green one, and
[3:54] Speaker 1: or you can throw all three at once. Okay, so
[3:56] Speaker 1: you've got different ways that you can modify the game.
[3:59] Speaker 1: And essentially the research has just said to each child,
[4:02] Speaker 1: how would you like to set up the game for
[4:03] Speaker 1: both the win and the fun conditions? Ok we're going
[4:06] Speaker 1: to do both. You're going to get to play for
[4:07] Speaker 1: fun and you're going to get to play to win.
[4:09] Speaker 1: How would you like to set up the game?
[4:11] Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to take a stab in the dark.
[4:13] Speaker 1: Go.
[4:14] Speaker 2: If they were playing for fun, then I actually think
[4:17] Speaker 2: that they would step away from the target, right, they
[4:20] Speaker 2: would create more distance.
[4:21] Speaker 1: So they challenge themselves. Yeah, okay, because this is meant
[4:23] Speaker 1: to be about fund yep ye.
[4:25] Speaker 2: And if they were playing to compete, then I would
[4:28] Speaker 2: say that they would come in closer.
[4:30] Speaker 1: Okay. If I'm going for the stick is, if I'm
[4:31] Speaker 1: going for the prize, If I'm trying to defeat others,
[4:35] Speaker 1: I want to increase my chances as much as possible.
[4:37] Speaker 1: You're speaking like a scientist. We always joke about how
[4:40] Speaker 1: you don't like the Doctor's desk episodes, but I think
[4:42] Speaker 1: that this is starting to infiltrate your psyche because they
[4:47] Speaker 1: were the hypotheses that the research has made. And I
[4:49] Speaker 1: know some people might say, well, this comes from the
[4:50] Speaker 1: University of to Do, of course, but we have to
[4:52] Speaker 1: keep doing these research projects because in classrooms and in homes, kitchens,
[4:56] Speaker 1: dining rooms, bedrooms, we're consistently setting things up like a game.
[5:00] Speaker 1: We're setting things up as a competition, or we're trying
[5:03] Speaker 1: to get kids to be quote unquote motivated by sticking
[5:06] Speaker 1: these external things in their face. You can get the sticky,
[5:10] Speaker 1: you can get the price, you can get the goodie.
[5:11] Speaker 2: We're actually going the opposite way though, in a lot
[5:14] Speaker 2: of cases, and when not providing our kids with the
[5:17] Speaker 2: challenge they actually.
[5:18] Speaker 1: Need potentially, which makes things boring. Boring, So let's talk
[5:23] Speaker 1: about what the research has found, whether you're right or not,
[5:27] Speaker 1: and then I'm always right. Okay, well you are you are.
[5:31] Speaker 1: The team's analysis showed, and I'm quoting here from an
[5:34] Speaker 1: article from the British Psychological Society, that even the youngest
[5:37] Speaker 1: children preferred easier win relevant settings when they were playing
[5:41] Speaker 1: to win than when they were playing for fun. In
[5:43] Speaker 1: other words, if there's something on the line, let's make
[5:45] Speaker 1: this as easy as possible, I just need to get
[5:48] Speaker 1: the goodie. In the fun condition, they didn't feel that
[5:53] Speaker 1: the way that the game was set up matter at all.
[5:55] Speaker 1: They just wanted to experiment, They wanted to challenge themselves,
[5:57] Speaker 1: they wanted to have fun.
[5:59] Speaker 2: And it did. I would assume if they hit it
[6:02] Speaker 2: or not, they just they're stretching themselves.
[6:05] Speaker 1: Well, it does matter that they hit it simply because
[6:07] Speaker 1: they want to hit it, because that's the challenge, right,
[6:08] Speaker 1: that's inherent in it. But if they've moved twenty meters
[6:11] Speaker 1: and they don't even know that they can throw the
[6:12] Speaker 1: bean bag or the baton that far, then it's about
[6:17] Speaker 1: experimenting and finding out After the break, let's talk about
[6:20] Speaker 1: what this means in our homes with our kids when
[6:23] Speaker 1: we're talking about their motivation for play, work and other challenges.
[6:36] Speaker 1: We're back. This is the Happy Families podcast. Kylie. Let's
[6:39] Speaker 1: hit it. Take our messages from the research because we
[6:42] Speaker 1: are about giving you genuine repairing solutions. The first thing
[6:47] Speaker 1: is this, when you remove competition, when you take away prizes,
[6:52] Speaker 1: goodies and the chance of getting something, kids intrinsic orientation
[6:58] Speaker 1: toward growth means that, as a general rule, they will
[7:01] Speaker 1: pursue more challenge. That's the big take home message from
[7:04] Speaker 1: this experiment.
[7:06] Speaker 2: I know you're talking about five to ten year olds,
[7:07] Speaker 2: but if we go back a couple of years to toddlers,
[7:11] Speaker 2: there's no competition in.
[7:12] Speaker 1: There, right, you're not seeing its three year old.
[7:15] Speaker 2: Why at all to think about what anyone else is doing.
[7:20] Speaker 2: But you watch the way they play, and they put
[7:23] Speaker 2: their body on the line at every chance they get.
[7:26] Speaker 1: They challenge themselves.
[7:27] Speaker 2: They're constantly challenging themselves.
[7:30] Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what they do at the park, how
[7:31] Speaker 1: they want to climb things that are way too big.
[7:33] Speaker 1: They want to slide down the slide there's way too big,
[7:35] Speaker 1: or climb up the slide the wrong way even though,
[7:37] Speaker 1: or they push a.
[7:37] Speaker 2: Dining chair over to the kitchen bench so they can
[7:39] Speaker 2: get up on the kitchen bench because there's something there
[7:41] Speaker 2: that they want.
[7:42] Speaker 1: It's all about challenge.
[7:43] Speaker 2: They're constantly challenging themselves.
[7:46] Speaker 1: Now it's worth highlighting here though, And the researchers didn't
[7:49] Speaker 1: point this out. If the activity is too hard, well,
[7:55] Speaker 1: I was going to say just not interesting, so you
[7:58] Speaker 1: might say too easy, or yes, potentially, if it is
[8:02] Speaker 1: vastly too hard, you'll actually see that there is no motivation.
[8:07] Speaker 1: Kids just looking to go I'm not confident, I'm not capable.
[8:09] Speaker 1: I can't do it. So it is important that the
[8:11] Speaker 1: settings are about right. And these Harvard researchers have stepped
[8:14] Speaker 1: in to this situation and said, here's a game that
[8:18] Speaker 1: we think you'll like. Okay, that is different to a
[8:22] Speaker 1: lot of circumstances where we find kids, and that's why
[8:25] Speaker 1: people use external motivators so very much. There's another thing
[8:29] Speaker 1: that's worth highlighting, and that's as follows. If I'm going
[8:34] Speaker 1: to play a game of ping pong, speaking from experience here,
[8:38] Speaker 1: if I'm going to play a game of ping pong
[8:39] Speaker 1: with a friend and we don't score, I'm bored within
[8:44] Speaker 1: about ninety seconds.
[8:45] Speaker 2: So I was going to say I play card games
[8:46] Speaker 2: with the kids and a few times just can't be
[8:48] Speaker 2: bothered scoring and there's just kind of almost no point
[8:52] Speaker 2: right right to playing the game.
[8:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, and usually that will be because we're not setting
[8:58] Speaker 1: it up structurally, so we're orienting ourselves towards challenge. Now,
[9:03] Speaker 1: let's say you and I were going to play some
[9:04] Speaker 1: ping pong and we decided that the whole object of this,
[9:10] Speaker 1: we're not just going to hit the ball across to
[9:11] Speaker 1: one another. The object of this is to see if
[9:15] Speaker 1: we can let the ball bounce once on our side,
[9:18] Speaker 1: and then we've got to hit it as low to
[9:21] Speaker 1: the ground as possible. So you know how in ping pong,
[9:24] Speaker 1: I hit it over the net, it bounces on your
[9:25] Speaker 1: side and then it's going to bounce onto the ground,
[9:28] Speaker 1: and so my objective now is to get it as
[9:31] Speaker 1: close to the ground as possible before I hit it
[9:32] Speaker 1: back over the net, and it's still got to get in.
[9:35] Speaker 1: Now I've created a level of challenge in our interaction.
[9:39] Speaker 1: It's not about competition, it's just about having fun and exploring.
[9:42] Speaker 1: Or we're going to work on our behind the back shots,
[9:44] Speaker 1: or we're going to work on our trying to get
[9:46] Speaker 1: the shot into the corner as close to the corner,
[9:48] Speaker 1: as close to the edge as we can. So when
[9:51] Speaker 1: we do that, we can take scoring out of it.
[9:53] Speaker 1: But we've introduced some other element of challenge. There's some
[9:56] Speaker 1: other purpose and that's the critical thing about the challenge
[9:58] Speaker 1: that Alison Gopnik and her colleagues in this research study
[10:01] Speaker 1: have done. They've said to the kids, there is a
[10:04] Speaker 1: challenge here with this task. There is an objective. What
[10:08] Speaker 1: we're trying to do is X, Y or z. If
[10:10] Speaker 1: you and I just stand on opposite sides of the
[10:12] Speaker 1: table and hit the ball to one another, played by
[10:15] Speaker 1: the rules. Well we can play by the rules, but
[10:17] Speaker 1: if there's no scoring, then there's no challenge. And my
[10:20] Speaker 1: point is you need to have an objective otherwise things
[10:23] Speaker 1: are just not that exciting and that interesting.
[10:25] Speaker 2: We're talking about kids challenging themselves, but essentially it really
[10:31] Speaker 2: is about them being willing to take risks.
[10:35] Speaker 1: Yeah, and they want hard fun.
[10:38] Speaker 2: Yeah, but it has to be autonomous.
[10:42] Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. They've got as soon as.
[10:44] Speaker 2: You put a cave it on it, or you tell
[10:47] Speaker 2: them what they have to do it either is too hard,
[10:51] Speaker 2: too easy, or it loses.
[10:54] Speaker 1: Its Let me tweak that just a bit. I know
[10:56] Speaker 1: you're searching for a word, but I need just a
[10:58] Speaker 1: gentle tweak here. You're saying, as soon as you tell
[11:00] Speaker 1: them what to do, it's going to lose interest or
[11:02] Speaker 1: motivation for them. But that's not quite right. You can
[11:06] Speaker 1: tell them what to do and so long as they
[11:08] Speaker 1: see the value in it. So long as they identify
[11:10] Speaker 1: the value, they endorse the activity, and therefore they will
[11:14] Speaker 1: be involved. It's when we're asking them to do something
[11:16] Speaker 1: that just can't see the purpose or value in that's
[11:18] Speaker 1: when we start to see the decrease in motivation. Just
[11:22] Speaker 1: one more quick thought that I think really rams this home,
[11:24] Speaker 1: and it's a great way to end the pod. One
[11:27] Speaker 1: of the most influential books in my life is a
[11:29] Speaker 1: book called Punished by Rewards biolthic hone Punished by Rewards,
[11:33] Speaker 1: the Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive plans, A's Praise and
[11:36] Speaker 1: other bribes. And in the book, which was written in
[11:39] Speaker 1: the early nineties, I might add, he reflects on the
[11:44] Speaker 1: very principles that had already been discovered that underpin what
[11:47] Speaker 1: we're reading about and talking about in today's doctor's desk.
[11:50] Speaker 1: And this is what he says. He says, it's not
[11:52] Speaker 1: entirely accurate to say that when we are working for rewards,
[11:56] Speaker 1: we just want fast and frequent success, Which is what
[11:58] Speaker 1: you could argue with these kids, right They want fast success,
[12:00] Speaker 1: they want frequent success, which is why they've increased the
[12:03] Speaker 1: odds of their winning by moving as close as they
[12:04] Speaker 1: can and making the variables work in their favor. He says,
[12:08] Speaker 1: the truth is even worse than that. Our objective is
[12:11] Speaker 1: not really to succeed at the task at all, in
[12:14] Speaker 1: the sense of doing it well. It is to succeed
[12:17] Speaker 1: at obtaining the reward. If it was somehow possible to
[12:21] Speaker 1: obtain it without finishing the assignment, we would abandon the
[12:24] Speaker 1: task in a minute. Kurt Lewin said as much in
[12:26] Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. Two researchers confirmed this effect empirically in
[12:29] Speaker 1: the eighties, and obviously we're still confirming it now. And
[12:32] Speaker 1: then he goes on to say a couple more things.
[12:34] Speaker 1: Just this is the last thing that I'll say. He says,
[12:36] Speaker 1: if we do usually complete the task, it's only because
[12:38] Speaker 1: doing so is a prerequisite for getting the goodie but
[12:41] Speaker 1: even when this is true, we will given a choice,
[12:43] Speaker 1: select the easiest possible task or the easiest way of
[12:45] Speaker 1: doing the task. At least ten studies have found just that,
[12:49] Speaker 1: with preschoolers working for toys, older children working for grades,
[12:52] Speaker 1: and adults working for money, all trying to avoid anything challenging. Furthermore,
[12:57] Speaker 1: research indicates that one the bigger the reward, the easier
[13:01] Speaker 1: the task that people choose. Two, when the rewards stop,
[13:06] Speaker 1: those who received them earlier continue to prefer to do
[13:09] Speaker 1: as little as possible. And three, easier tasks are selected
[13:13] Speaker 1: not only in situations where rewards are offered, but by
[13:16] Speaker 1: people who are, as a general rule, more reward oriented.
[13:21] Speaker 1: The practical implications here are enormous because in our workplaces,
[13:25] Speaker 1: in our classrooms, and in our homes, because we're completely
[13:28] Speaker 1: saturated in these behavioral ideas like you need to reward
[13:32] Speaker 1: and punish people, what we're really doing is discouraging kids
[13:35] Speaker 1: from taking risks, from thinking creatively, from challenging themselves. And
[13:39] Speaker 1: that's what these researchers at Harvard have found. One more time,
[13:43] Speaker 1: the more you put rewards in front of people, the
[13:45] Speaker 1: less likely it is that people will challenge themselves. The
[13:48] Speaker 1: more you remove rewards and say let's just do this
[13:50] Speaker 1: because it's fun. The more they seek the challenge.
[13:54] Speaker 2: So you and I have been working in the gym together,
[13:57] Speaker 2: and it's a little bit unfair because where at completely
[14:01] Speaker 2: different abilities. Yes, and when I started trying to compete
[14:07] Speaker 2: with you, which I cannot do, right, but you want
[14:10] Speaker 2: to beat deel wanted to kind of at least be
[14:13] Speaker 2: at your level.
[14:14] Speaker 1: Right. I hated it, yes, like.
[14:16] Speaker 2: I absolutely hated it was hard, and I came home
[14:19] Speaker 2: dejected every day. Yes, But once I changed my mindset
[14:25] Speaker 2: and I just this was about me challenging my own
[14:27] Speaker 2: body and what my body's capable of doing. The other day,
[14:31] Speaker 2: I came home and showed you that I could do
[14:33] Speaker 2: a handstand unassisted by myself.
[14:36] Speaker 1: I haven't been able to do that, yeah, and forever.
[14:38] Speaker 2: And it feels amazing, And it spurs me on to
[14:41] Speaker 2: want to do more as a result, and challenge myself
[14:45] Speaker 2: take more risks because it's all about me. It's not
[14:50] Speaker 2: actually about whether I can do what you're doing. It's
[14:54] Speaker 2: about what I can do.
[14:55] Speaker 1: And if I was to say I'll give you a
[14:57] Speaker 1: hundred bucks if you can do it, your focus move
[15:00] Speaker 1: from doing it and challenging yourself to what am I
[15:03] Speaker 1: going to do to get the reward, and just doing
[15:05] Speaker 1: that bare minimum. Once you've got the reward, that's when
[15:08] Speaker 1: you're back off. This is why when people set the
[15:09] Speaker 1: challenge of I'm going to train for the marathon, on
[15:11] Speaker 1: the triathlon or this or that, once they've done it,
[15:13] Speaker 1: they stopped training right because they got the reward. They
[15:16] Speaker 1: did the thing well.
[15:18] Speaker 2: I had that exact experience as a teenager. A friend
[15:21] Speaker 2: of mine said, if I got a full strike at that,
[15:28] Speaker 2: they give me twenty dollars. And I was actually playing
[15:30] Speaker 2: pretty well. I hadn't I hadn't obviously got a strike,
[15:33] Speaker 2: but I was doing really well. I bowld worse than
[15:37] Speaker 2: I had ever bowled. After the incentive was placed before me,
[15:43] Speaker 2: then I had previous to it because all I was
[15:45] Speaker 2: focused on was the money, not the actual experience.
[15:49] Speaker 1: Motivation is so complex, it's so interesting. I just I
[15:53] Speaker 1: love this whole conversation. We will link to that study
[15:55] Speaker 1: in the show notes if you're interested in understanding more
[15:58] Speaker 1: about it. And I don Reckon and Alfie Khon's book
[16:00] Speaker 1: Punish by Rewards. I don't get any kickbacks for mentioning.
[16:03] Speaker 1: It's just an absolute cracker of a book and it
[16:05] Speaker 1: changed my life. That's why it's one of the main
[16:08] Speaker 1: reasons that I do what I do. We hope that
[16:10] Speaker 1: you've enjoyed today's pod. The Happy Families podcast is produced
[16:13] Speaker 1: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Memb having provides our research,
[16:16] Speaker 1: hadmen and other support and if you would like to
[16:18] Speaker 1: know more about making your family happier, visitors at happy
[16:21] Speaker 1: families dot com dot au

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.