# Derek McCormack on Parental Stress and Burnout

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 8 Sep 2026, 17 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/d7acdc44-ba47-40ca-a804-b4b300ba71e8/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

Parents have more advice, information and expert guidance than ever before. So why are so many feeling stressed, isolated and burnt out? More than 10,000 Australian parents took part in the Parenting Today study, revealing a worrying decline in wellbeing, self-compassion and connection. Justin speaks with Derek McCormick, Director of Raising Children Network, about what's putting parents under so much pressure and whether the constant stream of parenting advice is part of the problem. They unpack information overload, social media, AI, loneliness and the one simple shift that can help when parenting feels like too much. KEY POINTS • What more than 10,000 Australian parents revealed about parenting today • Why having more parenting information hasn't necessarily made parenting easier • How social media and influencers can leave good parents feeling like they're getting it wrong • Why trusted information matters, but information alone isn't enough • The importance of real-world connection and peer support • Why keeping communication open with your kids matters more than pushing them to talk • How AI is changing where parents go for advice • Why self-compassion is a practical tool for overwhelmed parents QUOTE OF THE EPISODE "Do I talk to myself the way I would talk to a good friend?" Derek McCormick RESOURCES MENTIONED • Raising Children Network • Parenting Today study from the Parenting Research Centre • MyTime peer support groups • Happy Families • Burnt Out webinar (included in the Happy Families membership) ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS • Audit where your parenting advice is coming from. Choose sources you genuinely trust. • Notice which accounts, reels or advice leave you feeling inadequate. Give yourself permission to unfollow. • Talk to yourself with the same kindness you'd offer a struggling friend. • Reach out to someone you trust instead of carrying the hard parts of parenting alone. • Focus on creating a relationship where your child feels safe bringing problems to you. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast. You know, parents
[0:07] Speaker 1: are more stressed than ever, like really, really stressed. The
[0:11] Speaker 1: data does not give parenting a good name. I don't
[0:14] Speaker 1: know how else to say it. And yet when we
[0:16] Speaker 1: look at our kids, we think, oh my goodness, I
[0:17] Speaker 1: love them and I wouldn't change this for the world.
[0:19] Speaker 1: Except maybe at two o'clock in the morning when you've
[0:21] Speaker 1: woken me up for the fourth time tonight already. Anyway,
[0:23] Speaker 1: more than 78,000 Australian parents visit one website every single day.
[0:28] Speaker 1: They're looking for answers. And now the people who run
[0:30] Speaker 1: it have released research saying those parents are, as I said,
[0:33] Speaker 1: more stressed than ever. So here's the uncomfortable question. If
[0:36] Speaker 1: we have more parenting information available than at any point
[0:39] Speaker 1: in human history, why are we falling apart? Today on
[0:43] Speaker 1: the podcast, Derek McCormick from the Raising Children Network, talking
[0:48] Speaker 1: about the latest study, talking about the Raising Children Network
[0:51] Speaker 1: resources online and a whole bunch of other stuff. That's next.
[0:54] Speaker 1: Stay with us. Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast.
[0:59] Speaker 1: So glad that you've joined me for what I think
[1:00] Speaker 1: is going to be one of the most fascinating conversations
[1:02] Speaker 1: we've had on the podcast. For some time, Derek McCormick
[1:05] Speaker 1: is the director of the Raising Children Network. He's an
[1:08] Speaker 1: honorary fellow at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute, otherwise known
[1:11] Speaker 1: as the MCRI. He has a science communication background, spent
[1:15] Speaker 1: more than 20 years now at the PRC, the Parenting
[1:17] Speaker 1: Research Centre. Oh my goodness, what a bio. He's also
[1:20] Speaker 1: a dad to two of his own kids, but three
[1:22] Speaker 1: stepkids as well, which makes five kids all in their 20s.
[1:26] Speaker 1: And they're slowly moving out, Derek, which means that you
[1:29] Speaker 1: are feeling a little bit more relaxed about life than
[1:31] Speaker 1: you probably were 10 years ago.
[1:33] Speaker 2: A smidgen. I mean, you know, things change, you know,
[1:37] Speaker 2: things change and evolve. So it's hard to compare one
[1:39] Speaker 2: year with the next.
[1:41] Speaker 1: Parenting is just this ongoing process of endurance.
[1:45] Speaker 2: It's a marathon, not a sprint. Absolutely. So and I
[1:48] Speaker 2: think we in the early years of parenting, we have
[1:51] Speaker 2: certain ideas and expectations and then we learn they will
[1:54] Speaker 2: last a year or two and then you'll have new
[1:55] Speaker 2: expectations and things evolving that you didn't quite predict.
[2:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, and expectations are the surest way to be miserable
[2:02] Speaker 1: as a parent because the kids always seem to go
[2:04] Speaker 1: in a different direction anyway. Hey, let's talk about parenting today.
[2:07] Speaker 1: It's the brand new study. Well, you've been working on
[2:09] Speaker 1: this for some time, but just recently there was a
[2:11] Speaker 1: new tranche of data that came out in what you
[2:14] Speaker 1: called the Parenting Today study. In brief, how many people
[2:18] Speaker 1: are participating in this study? What are you researching and
[2:21] Speaker 1: what did you find?
[2:22] Speaker 2: Great, yeah. So my colleagues at the Parenting Research Center
[2:25] Speaker 2: who also work with Raising Children Network, my main thing,
[2:29] Speaker 2: They conducted this research over the last few years. So
[2:32] Speaker 2: it's happening every three years. But this year was the
[2:35] Speaker 2: first national version of a parenting survey in this country ever.
[2:39] Speaker 2: So more than 10,000 parents gave us their time, answered
[2:44] Speaker 2: more than 120 questions. And we really got deep in
[2:48] Speaker 2: terms of what's going on for them, how they're coping,
[2:50] Speaker 2: what's going really well. And those 10,000 parents gave us
[2:55] Speaker 2: a really great snapshot that we will take again in
[2:57] Speaker 2: another three years.
[2:59] Speaker 1: When you say they told you what's going well, I
[3:01] Speaker 1: think we should start with the good news. But the
[3:03] Speaker 1: headlines certainly weren't positive because the media always grabs onto
[3:07] Speaker 1: the negative. So tell us the good stuff first.
[3:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, look, the good news is when we look at
[3:12] Speaker 2: that data, a lot of parents are doing pretty well.
[3:15] Speaker 2: They value their job as a parent. They know where
[3:17] Speaker 2: to get support in many cases. And They're happy in
[3:21] Speaker 2: general with how things are going with raising their children.
[3:25] Speaker 2: And what we found when we looked into the other
[3:27] Speaker 2: data is that there are parts of the story that
[3:30] Speaker 2: aren't quite as positive. And of course, you're right, that
[3:33] Speaker 2: will grab headlines. And that's what we did. But we've
[3:36] Speaker 2: managed to weave the good in with the less good
[3:38] Speaker 2: in the narrative. So the good stuff is parents are
[3:42] Speaker 2: generally coping pretty well with the job of being a parent.
[3:46] Speaker 2: But on the other side, there are a lot of
[3:47] Speaker 2: pressures on parents these days, which are leading to this,
[3:51] Speaker 2: what looks like a bit of a decline in things
[3:54] Speaker 2: like self-compassion, general well-being, feelings of isolation, those kinds of
[4:00] Speaker 2: areas where parents could use a little bit more support,
[4:04] Speaker 2: either from the clothes around them or just being kinder
[4:06] Speaker 2: to themselves.
[4:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, I talked about this on the podcast a few
[4:10] Speaker 1: weeks back, the idea of self-compassion, the loneliness, and also,
[4:13] Speaker 1: as you said, the Getting the support, getting the support
[4:17] Speaker 1: that we need. In fact, I did a webinar called
[4:18] Speaker 1: Burnt Out where I looked pretty heavily on this particular study.
[4:22] Speaker 1: I've got a question for you that's probably a little
[4:24] Speaker 1: bit of a challenging one, especially since you're running one
[4:27] Speaker 1: of the most important resources on parenting in the country here.
[4:31] Speaker 1: Raising Children Network has been going for 20 years, since 2006.
[4:36] Speaker 1: Millions of parents have been involved and taken great information
[4:38] Speaker 1: from it. A lot of money from the government so
[4:40] Speaker 1: that we can get the best information out. They're evidence-based.
[4:46] Speaker 1: My question for you is, if parents are more stressed
[4:48] Speaker 1: now than when they started, which seems to be what
[4:51] Speaker 1: shows up in the data, what does that tell you
[4:55] Speaker 1: about whether giving more information is the right intervention?
[5:00] Speaker 2: I think it's a great question and we need to
[5:02] Speaker 2: face these questions bravely. I think information is critical and trustworthy,
[5:08] Speaker 2: reliable information is exactly what we offer, but it ain't
[5:12] Speaker 2: the whole story. So there's lots going on outside of
[5:16] Speaker 2: simple information provision that will influence what's happening for a parent.
[5:20] Speaker 2: They've got all those factors and contextual things in their
[5:23] Speaker 2: lives that they might be having trouble with finances, relationship difficulties,
[5:27] Speaker 2: and so on, what we call the social determinants, right,
[5:30] Speaker 2: of health. And so on top of that, you have
[5:33] Speaker 2: an evolving landscape around parenting with technology and AI coming in.
[5:38] Speaker 2: And these things can give parents extra stress while they
[5:42] Speaker 2: are benefiting from good quality messages on how to raise
[5:46] Speaker 2: children or what's good for children's development. So when we
[5:50] Speaker 2: look at that, we look at, you know, what we
[5:52] Speaker 2: see in this data, we think we better keep going
[5:55] Speaker 2: with trustworthy supports, but we also need to work as
[5:59] Speaker 2: a country in partnership with each other to put maybe
[6:03] Speaker 2: some more scaffolding around parents around wellbeing. Yeah.
[6:07] Speaker 1: The isolation, the feeling like you can't talk to anyone
[6:09] Speaker 1: about it. And And the feeling that everyone else has
[6:12] Speaker 1: got it together because their Instagram looks so good can
[6:15] Speaker 1: be so debilitating. And I know we're supposed to be
[6:18] Speaker 1: past that, and yet it feels like when I'm talking
[6:20] Speaker 1: to parents, they're not. They feel like they're the only
[6:22] Speaker 1: ones who are struggling, and they definitely don't want to
[6:24] Speaker 1: open up to everyone else who looks like they've got
[6:26] Speaker 1: it together about the challenges that they're facing. Let me
[6:30] Speaker 1: ask you, Derek, I get really concerned about the amount
[6:34] Speaker 1: of information that parents are getting about raising their kids from–
[6:38] Speaker 1: from influencers from instagram from from tiktok and i wonder
[6:42] Speaker 1: sometimes if some of the stress is caused by parenting
[6:45] Speaker 1: advice like and not necessarily the good sort but just
[6:49] Speaker 1: there's so much parenting advice out there it's turned right
[6:52] Speaker 1: up the tone of it can be really really challenging
[6:55] Speaker 1: to navigate the online world is not i'm going to
[6:58] Speaker 1: say a um it's not a safe place to be.
[7:02] Speaker 3: Yeah for a lot of people there's a lot of
[7:04] Speaker 3: noise a lot of noise to try and cut through
[7:06] Speaker 3: and The challenge, the true challenge for us, Justin, is
[7:09] Speaker 3: to accept the reality of what the algorithm is serving people,
[7:12] Speaker 3: what influencers and creators are serving people, which is not
[7:15] Speaker 3: helping as much as, say, a trusted source.
[7:19] Speaker 2: And then figure out as best we can how to
[7:22] Speaker 2: cut through that noise. So, you know, we are taking
[7:25] Speaker 2: seriously the world of the influencer space and how we
[7:28] Speaker 2: can cut through and show up there as a trusted
[7:31] Speaker 2: place to get your messages. Same with other platforms. tools
[7:35] Speaker 2: like social media more generally and AI. How can we
[7:37] Speaker 2: show up for parents in a trusted way? And I
[7:41] Speaker 2: include everyday life and the trusted spaces, the libraries, the YMCA,
[7:46] Speaker 2: the sporting clubs. Where are parents feeling that they're in
[7:50] Speaker 2: a trusted space and can we show up for those
[7:53] Speaker 2: in those spaces?
[7:54] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nothing worse than seeing a reel and feeling
[7:57] Speaker 1: like you're damaging your child while you're just trying your
[7:59] Speaker 1: hardest to get it right. After the break... We find
[8:02] Speaker 1: out what the director of the Raising Children Network, Derek McCormick,
[8:06] Speaker 1: struggles with and is stressed out most by as a parent. Plus,
[8:11] Speaker 1: what do we do about AI taking over from things
[8:13] Speaker 1: like the Raising Children Network? Do we trust AI? Does
[8:17] Speaker 1: ChatGPT or Claude know better than the experts who have
[8:20] Speaker 1: put the website together? That and more right after this.
[8:31] Speaker 2: We're back.
[8:32] Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. Derek McCormick, director of the
[8:34] Speaker 1: Raising Children Network, talking about the Parenting Today study published
[8:38] Speaker 1: by the Parenting Research Centre and the challenge of getting
[8:41] Speaker 1: really good information out to parents who are feeling overwhelmed
[8:44] Speaker 1: and sometimes just feel like there's too much information. Derek,
[8:48] Speaker 1: you've got five kids in their 20s. What stresses you
[8:52] Speaker 1: out the most as a parent?
[8:55] Speaker 2: I think when you get to this stage of parenting
[8:57] Speaker 2: and you're still very much engaged with How can I
[9:00] Speaker 2: do the best for my young person who's still developing?
[9:04] Speaker 2: I think the thing that stressed me out most would be,
[9:06] Speaker 2: I don't know, negotiating that role where you become a
[9:09] Speaker 2: kind of a peer and a supportive peer for your
[9:12] Speaker 2: child while you're also feeling that protection and you want
[9:17] Speaker 2: to guide them in their decision making. But they're making
[9:19] Speaker 2: a lot of decisions without you. So you're balancing that thing.
[9:22] Speaker 2: I suppose that Role negotiation might be something I think
[9:26] Speaker 2: about more than anything else. Am I doing all the
[9:30] Speaker 2: things I could do to further help them develop into
[9:34] Speaker 2: adults and through adulthood? That would probably be the thing.
[9:37] Speaker 1: You've been working around the parenting domain for 20 years
[9:41] Speaker 1: with the Raising Children Network. Let's go back 10 or
[9:43] Speaker 1: 15 years when the kids were all at home and
[9:46] Speaker 1: there was nonstop activity and action and conflict and tension
[9:50] Speaker 1: and all of those things. I think.
[9:56] Speaker 2: Looking back at that kind of phase, it was mostly
[9:58] Speaker 2: about having an open line of communication and something I
[10:01] Speaker 2: know you talk about a lot. And often when I'm
[10:04] Speaker 2: talking to media too, I end up back in that
[10:06] Speaker 2: space again and again. How is the line of communication,
[10:09] Speaker 2: whether it's about technology use, whether it's about feeling safe
[10:13] Speaker 2: at school, whatever the topic, is the communication line open?
[10:16] Speaker 2: And for me, having a blended family during those years,
[10:20] Speaker 2: stepkids and my own kids, just trying to keep those
[10:23] Speaker 2: different styles of communication with the different young people and
[10:26] Speaker 2: making sure we've got some sort of back and forth
[10:30] Speaker 2: so that I'm seen as a trusted place to bring
[10:32] Speaker 2: a problem.
[10:32] Speaker 1: Derek, I've always been taken by the research that talks
[10:35] Speaker 1: about how parental supervision and monitoring is not the thing
[10:38] Speaker 1: that keeps kids safe. Child disclosure to parent is the
[10:41] Speaker 1: thing that keeps kids safe. Hearing you say that is
[10:44] Speaker 1: just one of those reassuring things where as a parent,
[10:46] Speaker 1: That's what you want more than anything. Are we talking?
[10:48] Speaker 1: Are the kids disclosing? Are they opening up? Are they
[10:51] Speaker 1: letting me know what's happening in their world so that
[10:53] Speaker 1: I can be that steady source of support? And ironically,
[10:56] Speaker 1: the more you push them to disclose, the less likely
[10:58] Speaker 1: it is that they will, right? You've got to make
[11:00] Speaker 1: the relationship feel safe so they'll do it.
[11:02] Speaker 2: Okay. Absolutely.
[11:03] Speaker 1: Let's get back into the wonderful resource that you've got.
[11:07] Speaker 1: I was grateful a number of years ago to be
[11:08] Speaker 1: able to contribute to the Raising Children Network. But I
[11:11] Speaker 1: think about what the world has become with the rise
[11:14] Speaker 1: of AI technology. My sense now is that rather than
[11:17] Speaker 1: jumping onto Google and going to the Raising Children Network website,
[11:20] Speaker 1: parents are diving into their preferred AI at 2 o'clock
[11:24] Speaker 1: in the morning and typing their question in there instead.
[11:27] Speaker 1: I wonder what your view on that is. Do you
[11:29] Speaker 1: have any data on that? Have you seen any change
[11:31] Speaker 1: in your numbers at the Raising Children Network?
[11:33] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[11:33] Speaker 1: And what are you guys doing about it?
[11:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've definitely seen, like anybody who publishes anything online,
[11:40] Speaker 2: and we see the effect of numbers dropping on a
[11:43] Speaker 2: website versus increasing in other tools. So we're seeing, like
[11:47] Speaker 2: in the last 12 months, we saw more than 100%
[11:49] Speaker 2: increase of people coming to us through their preferred AI.
[11:53] Speaker 2: Because the data you get is getting better. Now, it's
[11:57] Speaker 2: still not perfect. We're on a long road here. But
[12:00] Speaker 2: the data you can get about who's coming to us
[12:03] Speaker 2: because of AI is getting better. So that's encouraging while
[12:07] Speaker 2: we're also playing in the social media space and looking
[12:11] Speaker 2: at Instagram and TikTok and these other places that we
[12:13] Speaker 2: need to show up for parents. So it's a, what
[12:16] Speaker 2: would I call it? It's a changing landscape. What we
[12:19] Speaker 2: know from the data we do have is that these
[12:23] Speaker 2: tools naturally will preference quality where they can. And the
[12:27] Speaker 2: way we developed our messages is in a way that
[12:30] Speaker 2: it will preference our messages and cite them better and
[12:33] Speaker 2: better over time. The way I think about it now, Justin,
[12:37] Speaker 2: is we have this large online presence full of trusted messages,
[12:41] Speaker 2: almost like a bank, like a repository, and that's getting
[12:45] Speaker 2: scraped and used and reused in ways that are increasing
[12:49] Speaker 2: so that we are showing up for more parents who
[12:52] Speaker 2: are not doing the old school Google. Okay.
[12:56] Speaker 1: So I have two questions to go. One of them
[12:57] Speaker 1: is a policy question. So for people who are not
[13:00] Speaker 1: into government stuff and policy stuff, I'll make it really quick.
[13:02] Speaker 1: And then a really practical question about the Parenting Today
[13:05] Speaker 1: research and the stress that parents are experiencing. Let's go
[13:08] Speaker 1: with the policy question first. You've got this role where
[13:12] Speaker 1: you're government funded. You have the ear of government. When
[13:15] Speaker 1: you look at the research that has come through from
[13:18] Speaker 1: the Parenting Today study indicating that parents are pretty stressed
[13:21] Speaker 1: and struggling with burnout and loneliness and so on, what
[13:25] Speaker 1: are you asking the government for off the back of
[13:29] Speaker 1: this research? What policy changes do you think need to
[13:31] Speaker 1: be initiated to support parents and families better?
[13:35] Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, well, in those conversations, I will, yeah,
[13:39] Speaker 2: have thankfully good conversations with social services and other departments.
[13:43] Speaker 2: And we'll say things like, here at the Parenting Research Centre,
[13:47] Speaker 2: we've got this data and it tells us there are
[13:49] Speaker 2: things we could do, some more things we could do
[13:52] Speaker 2: around parents where they are in their daily life. Now,
[13:55] Speaker 2: it includes showing up with good, trusted messages, but it
[13:58] Speaker 2: probably includes other things like peer support, and having access
[14:02] Speaker 2: to human support, maybe a little bit more than they
[14:06] Speaker 2: have in the last few years. We have to acknowledge
[14:08] Speaker 2: all the other caveats like COVID and financial strain and
[14:12] Speaker 2: all those things we can't fix in a minute. But
[14:15] Speaker 2: looking at interpersonal relational support is something we would shine
[14:19] Speaker 2: a light on. And we might talk about things like MyTime,
[14:22] Speaker 2: which is a peer support group across the country. Or
[14:25] Speaker 2: we might talk about having other forms of of real-world
[14:29] Speaker 2: support while the information is there as a trusted foundation.
[14:33] Speaker 1: Final question. If a parent is feeling a little bit stressed,
[14:37] Speaker 1: feeling a bit burnt out, resonating with the findings of
[14:40] Speaker 1: the study that we've been discussing today, what is the
[14:44] Speaker 1: one thing that you think they could do? And I
[14:46] Speaker 1: know this is such a general question because every family
[14:48] Speaker 1: is different, every circumstance is different. But is there one
[14:50] Speaker 1: thing that you've seen work again and again? One of
[14:53] Speaker 1: those things where you think, oh my goodness, if we
[14:54] Speaker 1: could just get everyone to do this thing, it would definitely...
[14:58] Speaker 1: create a shift. It would just reduce the stress a
[15:01] Speaker 1: little bit for almost everybody.
[15:04] Speaker 2: Yeah. I'll offer two quick things instead of one. One
[15:07] Speaker 2: thing I would say is think about, as a parent,
[15:11] Speaker 2: think about where you're getting advice when you need it.
[15:14] Speaker 2: And is it coming from a place you truly trust?
[15:16] Speaker 2: That might be a family member. We've seen this in
[15:19] Speaker 2: the data. It might be a trusted teacher, doctor, or
[15:23] Speaker 2: it might be the internet. So have a look at that,
[15:26] Speaker 2: maybe with a little bit of a critical eye. Am
[15:28] Speaker 2: I getting stuff I can really trust? But then leaving
[15:31] Speaker 2: aside that one, I would really think what tends to
[15:35] Speaker 2: help is this refocus on how am I taking care
[15:38] Speaker 2: of myself? It sounds like something parents don't love to
[15:42] Speaker 2: jump into, but the whole airplane thing where you take
[15:45] Speaker 2: care of yourself before someone else. So that comes back
[15:48] Speaker 2: to those things like self-compassion. And am I being kind
[15:51] Speaker 2: to myself? Do I talk to myself the way I
[15:53] Speaker 2: would talk to a good friend? And starting there and
[15:57] Speaker 2: then having more conversations like that with yourself might help
[16:01] Speaker 2: you reach out and have them with other people.
[16:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, the answer all too often is no, isn't it?
[16:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a struggle.
[16:09] Speaker 1: Really, really valuable conversation. We're going to link to the research,
[16:12] Speaker 1: the Parenting Today research in the show notes, as well
[16:14] Speaker 1: as the Raising Children Network. Derek McCormick is the director
[16:18] Speaker 1: of the Raising Children Network and an honorary fellow at
[16:22] Speaker 1: the Murdoch Children's Research Institute. It's been a delight to
[16:25] Speaker 1: talk to you. I'm so glad we got to do this. Thanks, Derek.
[16:27] Speaker 2: Likewise. Anytime, Justin.
[16:28] Speaker 1: For more information, visit either of the websites that we've
[16:31] Speaker 1: just referred to. Otherwise, you can visit happyfamilies.com.au for more
[16:34] Speaker 1: to support your family. The Happy Families podcast, sound and
[16:37] Speaker 1: audio engineering from Justin Roulon at Bridge Media. Our additional
[16:41] Speaker 1: support comes from Mim Hammons. If you would like more,
[16:44] Speaker 1: tomorrow the podcast continues with an insight into research on
[16:49] Speaker 1: whether we're maximizing, maximizing, maximizing, whether it's helping or whether
[16:54] Speaker 1: we should be satisfied with a little less than the best.
[16:57] Speaker 1: Why would we say that? Tune in tomorrow and find
[16:59] Speaker 1: out when the podcast drops right here on the Happy
[17:02] Speaker 1: Families podcast.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.