# What Your Child Is Being Taught About Gender at School \[with Clare Rowe\]

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 6 Sep 2026, 24 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/3610b2f2-aee5-47b7-8f53-b4b300ba227a/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

Do you actually know what your child is being taught about gender and identity at school? Child and adolescent psychologist Clare Rowe says many parents have no idea what is being introduced in classrooms, particularly in the early primary years. She joins Justin to unpack what she believes is a growing gap between what children are being taught and what they are developmentally ready to understand. They discuss gender identity education, the role of schools versus parents, what Clare is seeing in her psychology practice, and why she believes parents need greater transparency about classroom content. Most importantly, Clare explains how parents can find out exactly what their school is teaching without starting a fight. KEY POINTS • Why Clare believes some gender concepts are being introduced too early • The difference between teaching inclusion and introducing complex ideas about identity • Why young children can struggle with abstract concepts • What Clare is seeing among children presenting with gender distress • The concern around moving young people quickly towards medical interventions • Why parents may not know what outside providers are teaching at school • How to ask your school for lesson plans and curriculum information without becoming confrontational QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “Get curious, not furious.” RESOURCES MENTIONED • Clare Rowe and Rowe & Associates Child and Family Psychology • The Rowe Report • On the Couch with Clare • Respectful Relationships programs • Happy Families ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS • Ask your school what your child is being taught about sex, gender and identity. • Request lesson plans, curriculum details and information about any third-party providers. • Find out when this content will be taught so you can talk about it at home. • Approach the school calmly and ask questions before drawing conclusions. • Consider approaching the school with two or three other parents if you feel more comfortable doing it together. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. We're starting this
[0:08] Speaker 1: week with a big one. A couple of weeks ago,
[0:10] Speaker 1: we were talking about gender ideology being taught in schools
[0:12] Speaker 1: and explicit content that our children are being taught in
[0:15] Speaker 1: their health and PE classes, often not by school teachers,
[0:17] Speaker 1: but by external parties that are being brought in, in
[0:20] Speaker 1: both state schools and independent schools. And honestly, as a parent,
[0:25] Speaker 1: I just find a lot of the material that kids
[0:26] Speaker 1: are being taught developmentally inappropriate. They're being taught stuff way
[0:31] Speaker 1: too young about topics that are just not really for kids.
[0:35] Speaker 1: Your child's school almost certainly has a policy on gender identity.
[0:40] Speaker 1: They'll also have a policy on what they're teaching and
[0:41] Speaker 1: how they're teaching it. I would all but bet that
[0:45] Speaker 1: you've probably never read it. And if you asked to,
[0:48] Speaker 1: I suspect that there's a good chance you'd be told
[0:51] Speaker 1: that it's handled at the school's discretion. Claire Rowe is
[0:55] Speaker 1: a child and adolescent psychologist who's spent years in clinic
[0:57] Speaker 1: rooms with kids and their families, their parents, and she
[1:01] Speaker 1: says that what's happening in classrooms is has drifted a
[1:04] Speaker 1: long way from what the developmental evidence supports. Claire is
[1:08] Speaker 1: with me today. Stay with us. That conversation is next. G'day,
[1:14] Speaker 1: this is the Happy Families podcast where you get real
[1:16] Speaker 1: parenting solutions every single day. My name is Dr. Justin Coulson.
[1:19] Speaker 1: This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. Claire Rowe, highly
[1:22] Speaker 1: regarded psychologist, director of Rowe and Associates, joining me on
[1:26] Speaker 1: the podcast today. I've actually got to give you a
[1:27] Speaker 1: bit more about her bio because she does so much
[1:29] Speaker 1: great work. Claire's a Sydney-based child and adolescent psychologist, the
[1:32] Speaker 1: Director of Rowe and Associates Child and Family Psychology Practice
[1:36] Speaker 1: in Sydney South. Claire has a Master's in Ed Dev Psychology,
[1:40] Speaker 1: that's Educational and Developmental Psychology, has worked with families for
[1:44] Speaker 1: years with a special emphasis on assessment and diagnosis. She's
[1:48] Speaker 1: a columnist whose writing appears in the AFR, the Daily Telly,
[1:51] Speaker 1: the Herald Sun. She has a sub-stack called The Rowe Report,
[1:54] Speaker 1: hosts the podcast On the Couch with Claire and somehow
[1:56] Speaker 1: still has time to talk with me today. Claire, great
[1:58] Speaker 1: to be with you.
[1:59] Speaker 2: Great to be with you, Justin. Thanks for having me.
[2:02] Speaker 1: Let's talk about this meaty topic that you've been getting
[2:04] Speaker 1: a bit of flack for because you wrote an article
[2:06] Speaker 1: a little while back about this in the News Corp Press,
[2:11] Speaker 1: gender ideology and developmental milestones. Where do you think is
[2:18] Speaker 1: the best place to start? I have a thousand questions
[2:20] Speaker 1: and I'd rather just let you start and then we'll
[2:22] Speaker 1: pick it off from there. Yeah, thanks.
[2:24] Speaker 2: Well, you're right. It is a meaty topic. And I
[2:26] Speaker 2: think the first thing I would say is that this
[2:28] Speaker 2: conversation gets polarized really quickly, depending on where you're coming
[2:33] Speaker 2: with your own experiences individually and in your family. But
[2:38] Speaker 2: I think we just need to bring it back to
[2:40] Speaker 2: two things. One, in my kind of research and working
[2:44] Speaker 2: with families and research into the curriculum and how schools operate,
[2:49] Speaker 2: So parents are really quite in the dark, I think,
[2:52] Speaker 2: about what's going on in school. So that's the first thing.
[2:55] Speaker 2: And I say that as a mother of two primary
[2:57] Speaker 2: school kids myself, so it's been fairly eye-opening for me.
[3:01] Speaker 2: And the other thing is we just need to bring
[3:02] Speaker 2: it back to the basic question, as you alluded to
[3:06] Speaker 2: in your intro there, of child development and what is
[3:09] Speaker 2: appropriate education. in terms of child development and what we
[3:13] Speaker 2: teach children. And my concern, of course, is not about
[3:18] Speaker 2: teaching children to be kind and to be inclusive and
[3:21] Speaker 2: to be tolerant. I mean, that's fantastic. We should teach
[3:24] Speaker 2: children that families look different. People look different. People live differently.
[3:28] Speaker 2: And we need to treat everyone with dignity and respect.
[3:32] Speaker 2: That's not controversial, I don't think, with anyone. My concern
[3:37] Speaker 2: is that We have moved beyond just teaching kindness and
[3:42] Speaker 2: inclusion and we start introducing to very, very young children
[3:47] Speaker 2: concepts around sex and gender identity. And when I say young,
[3:53] Speaker 2: I'm talking kind of four, five-year-olds. Certainly it is in
[3:55] Speaker 2: the curriculum by kindergarten that we're teaching children about these,
[4:01] Speaker 2: you know, tough, meaty concepts that a lot of adults
[4:05] Speaker 2: don't struggle to get their head around and don't really
[4:09] Speaker 2: have a firm position on sometimes.
[4:12] Speaker 1: Claire, a lot of parents will hear you say gender
[4:14] Speaker 1: identity and shrug their shoulders and say, what do you
[4:17] Speaker 1: even mean? So when you say gender identity or when
[4:20] Speaker 1: you talk about gender ideology, what are you specifically describing?
[4:23] Speaker 2: Okay, so... Specifically, as you said before, the state education
[4:31] Speaker 2: departments often bring in these third-party providers and they do
[4:35] Speaker 2: training in schools. And a lot of your listeners may
[4:38] Speaker 2: have heard about a program called Respectful Relationships. And for
[4:41] Speaker 2: the vast majority of those programs, I have no issue
[4:45] Speaker 2: with them. I have no issue with some of the
[4:47] Speaker 2: anti-bullying concepts in there and the teaching of tolerance. I
[4:51] Speaker 2: think it's great.
[4:52] Speaker 1: And that's the way it's brought in, right? It's brought
[4:54] Speaker 1: in as a, we're going to teach kids to be
[4:56] Speaker 1: nice to each other, to not bully each other, but
[4:59] Speaker 1: they also bring in some pretty heavy gender-related topics.
[5:04] Speaker 2: There are absolutely specific teachings that tell teachers that that
[5:09] Speaker 2: next in your class of six and seven-year-olds, you ought
[5:12] Speaker 2: to tell them that some people are born as a
[5:14] Speaker 2: girl and some people are born as a boy, but
[5:16] Speaker 2: some people on their inside know that they're not a
[5:19] Speaker 2: boy and they're not a girl and they're in the
[5:20] Speaker 2: wrong body and they may be something different and they
[5:22] Speaker 2: may be a combination or they may be something entirely
[5:25] Speaker 2: different altogether. I mean, six-year-olds listening to this who are
[5:31] Speaker 2: still mixing up their pronouns naturally anyway, we have to
[5:34] Speaker 2: correct them on, sitting there saying, right, so I'm a boy,
[5:38] Speaker 2: but if I don't feel like that, I might not
[5:40] Speaker 2: be a boy. My concern also is that that's not
[5:43] Speaker 2: a one-off lesson. That's repeated through each school term, through
[5:49] Speaker 2: each school year. And for a lot of kids, that
[5:52] Speaker 2: goes over their head. I get that. I've got two kids.
[5:55] Speaker 2: There'd be one kid of mine who just was like, what?
[5:57] Speaker 2: I'm thinking about recess. I'm thinking about kicking the footy.
[6:00] Speaker 2: There'd be another child I had at home who would
[6:04] Speaker 2: deeply listen to that and take that on. as gospel
[6:08] Speaker 2: and okay. And it may not affect them in that
[6:11] Speaker 2: school year, but when they've heard it repetitively through kindergarten,
[6:14] Speaker 2: year one, year two, year three, when they do stumble
[6:17] Speaker 2: across some mixed feelings in grade four and grade five, okay, well,
[6:22] Speaker 2: this might be a reason. And that's not to dismiss
[6:26] Speaker 2: kids who genuinely have some gender distress, but I think
[6:30] Speaker 2: by the education to all, we are at a huge
[6:35] Speaker 2: risk of capturing kids that otherwise may not fit clinical
[6:42] Speaker 2: diagnostic terms of being gender diverse or having gender distress.
[6:46] Speaker 1: And of course, what happens is they go home and
[6:47] Speaker 1: they look it up on YouTube and the algorithm pushes
[6:50] Speaker 1: them into more and more content, more and more of
[6:52] Speaker 1: the lexicon, more and more of the things to think
[6:55] Speaker 1: and the things to say and so on. In your
[6:58] Speaker 1: News Corp article back in July, you cited high school students.
[7:04] Speaker 1: in Tasmania being made to recite pro-LGBTQIA+, I think I
[7:09] Speaker 1: got all the letters there correct, chance, affirming that, quote,
[7:13] Speaker 1: gender is not simply male or female and that, quote, non-binary,
[7:17] Speaker 1: cisgender and transgender are all valid identities. There'll be many
[7:22] Speaker 1: people who are listening who will say, well, that's true.
[7:25] Speaker 1: And why wouldn't we teach kids that? Let's set aside
[7:30] Speaker 1: the issues around whether that is or is not true.
[7:33] Speaker 1: I know there were some people who were listening who
[7:34] Speaker 1: disagree profoundly and some people who will be 100% behind that.
[7:39] Speaker 1: My question is, should we be teaching 13-year-olds this kind
[7:42] Speaker 1: of stuff? Yeah, and.
[7:45] Speaker 2: There's a second issue to that, whether you agree with
[7:48] Speaker 2: it or not, just quickly, and that is should that
[7:52] Speaker 2: be the role of schools?
[7:53] Speaker 1: Right.
[7:53] Speaker 2: And should that be the role of teachers to be
[7:56] Speaker 2: teaching that to your children without you being aware of it?
[7:59] Speaker 1: Beautiful.
[8:00] Speaker 2: Without you being equipped to be able to say, right, well,
[8:02] Speaker 2: that's what's being taught. Now I'm aware of it. If
[8:04] Speaker 2: they come home and they're looking things up or they
[8:06] Speaker 2: have questions or I know the extent of the curriculum,
[8:09] Speaker 2: I know what they've been told, and I can either
[8:12] Speaker 2: confirm that or we can have discussions around that. And I,
[8:15] Speaker 2: as a parent, can maintain my right to teach my
[8:19] Speaker 2: children about that, depending on my views. And I think
[8:22] Speaker 2: that that firmly has to still sit with parents and
[8:25] Speaker 2: not state education. But you're right, in terms of the
[8:31] Speaker 2: developmental benefit to a six-year-old to teach them this, what
[8:35] Speaker 2: problem are we trying to solve by that? Where is
[8:39] Speaker 2: the evidence that introducing these concepts actually improves children's wellbeing?
[8:45] Speaker 2: I would argue there is no evidence for that. And
[8:47] Speaker 2: if you really want to go down a bit more
[8:50] Speaker 2: of a sinister path, you would say, well, there are
[8:52] Speaker 2: activist groups there who are being brought in as third
[8:55] Speaker 2: parties to teach our children to push this. Now, some
[8:58] Speaker 2: people agree with that, some people don't. But the matter
[9:03] Speaker 2: is we've conflated two things here. One is that there's
[9:08] Speaker 2: all sorts of people and families in the world and
[9:10] Speaker 2: we treat everyone kindly. Absolutely great. Beautiful. The other is
[9:14] Speaker 2: let's teach five-year-olds a particular framework that's highly contested As
[9:21] Speaker 2: you said, there are people listening to this who will agree,
[9:22] Speaker 2: there are people who don't. But let's teach them this
[9:26] Speaker 2: contested framework for understanding their sex and gender at five.
[9:32] Speaker 2: I don't see any benefit to it. And it comes
[9:36] Speaker 2: back to a lot of things, I think, that are
[9:38] Speaker 2: taught in school these days. I'm not saying particularly that
[9:41] Speaker 2: kids should not have some type of education around it,
[9:45] Speaker 2: but I'm questioning the time that it is introduced and
[9:49] Speaker 2: why we don't delay that until far later. You know,
[9:54] Speaker 2: the brain has so much to do at different developmental
[9:58] Speaker 2: periods through childhood. And children who are five, six, seven
[10:04] Speaker 2: are extremely concrete thinkers. Right. And we know that. The
[10:08] Speaker 2: developmental science on how the brain develops really hasn't changed
[10:11] Speaker 2: much in the last 50 years. And those kids in
[10:13] Speaker 2: primary school, you know, are very concrete, very literal, and
[10:18] Speaker 2: they They struggle to understand big abstract concepts, things that
[10:27] Speaker 2: adults are really kind of grappling with. They are really
[10:30] Speaker 2: going to quite struggle with. And kids, look, kids are
[10:34] Speaker 2: already aware of gender. I get that. They notice sex
[10:38] Speaker 2: differences pretty early. They notice girl and boy and mum
[10:41] Speaker 2: and dad. But noticing categories is not being the same
[10:46] Speaker 2: thing as being ready, cognitively ready for this abstract discussion
[10:52] Speaker 2: about whether those categories are subjective or whether they're internally determined.
[10:59] Speaker 2: Hugely confusing for a child. And I would just say
[11:02] Speaker 2: at the end of the day, unnecessary at that age period. Yeah.
[11:06] Speaker 1: I haven't read any evidence that suggests that this is
[11:07] Speaker 1: a good idea, especially in those younger age groups, even
[11:10] Speaker 1: in early adolescence. After the break, Claire, let's have a
[11:12] Speaker 1: chat about the clinical realities that you would be confronted
[11:16] Speaker 1: with when you're sitting down with a family who has
[11:19] Speaker 1: a child who is experiencing some gender confusion. And I
[11:22] Speaker 1: also have a case study that I want to run
[11:23] Speaker 1: by you. I think that it gives us reason to
[11:27] Speaker 1: pause and consider exactly what we're doing to our kids
[11:30] Speaker 1: in schools around this topic. Stay with us. This is
[11:40] Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast. Claire Rowe, educational and developmental psychologist
[11:43] Speaker 1: with me today talking about gender ideology being taught in schools. Claire,
[11:47] Speaker 1: I want to run a story by you. A family
[11:50] Speaker 1: that I'm familiar with had an experience where their child
[11:53] Speaker 1: had never given any indication whatsoever of any gender identity confusion,
[11:59] Speaker 1: any struggles with their sexuality. This was just a really
[12:03] Speaker 1: happy little girl who was growing up like every other
[12:06] Speaker 1: little girl grows up. Hit grade seven, the Gender ideology
[12:11] Speaker 1: content was taught in a class and she walked out
[12:15] Speaker 1: and just said, oh, well, that sounds like me. And
[12:18] Speaker 1: there seemed to be in her grade a little bit
[12:21] Speaker 1: of status around taking on a particular identity, not a
[12:26] Speaker 1: mainstream identity, but stepping into saying I'm bi or I'm
[12:28] Speaker 1: poly or I'm asexual or I'm gay or lesbian. And
[12:34] Speaker 1: over the subsequent four or five years... she stepped in
[12:39] Speaker 1: and out of every one of those identities, literally. And
[12:43] Speaker 1: because I'm familiar with the family, I was watching, my
[12:45] Speaker 1: kids were talking about it, I was talking about it
[12:47] Speaker 1: with them, as this person was seemingly struggling to work
[12:51] Speaker 1: out who she is. And I couldn't help but think
[12:54] Speaker 1: that had the school not stepped in, had the parents
[12:56] Speaker 1: been aware of what was being taught and just said,
[12:59] Speaker 1: we'd actually rather deal with that at home rather than
[13:00] Speaker 1: having a daughter involved in this. My sense is that
[13:04] Speaker 1: she probably wouldn't have had any of that confusion and
[13:07] Speaker 1: gone through any of the heartbreak and challenges. At one point,
[13:10] Speaker 1: she was pretty well convinced that she was transgender and
[13:13] Speaker 1: her and her family were having some heartbreaking conversations about
[13:16] Speaker 1: her having top surgery, a double mastectomy as a 16-year-old girl.
[13:20] Speaker 1: Just irreversible, right? This really huge thing. Now she's a
[13:25] Speaker 1: little bit older. She's finished high school and is an adult.
[13:28] Speaker 1: And she believes that she's bisexual because she actually is
[13:32] Speaker 1: very interested in guys, but she's still open to a
[13:34] Speaker 1: relationship with a girl. A lot of confusion, a lot
[13:37] Speaker 1: of heartache, a lot of difficulty. How often do you
[13:40] Speaker 1: come across this and what do you do in a
[13:41] Speaker 1: clinical setting when you're presented with a family or a
[13:47] Speaker 1: girl or a boy who are experiencing this because of
[13:49] Speaker 1: what they were introduced to at school?
[13:51] Speaker 2: Well, I could say that we're certainly presented with it
[13:55] Speaker 2: a lot more than we were 10 years ago. I mean,
[13:58] Speaker 2: you know, exponentially I've run a child and adolescent mental
[14:02] Speaker 2: health clinic in Sydney for 15 years with a team
[14:06] Speaker 2: of child psychologists. And it was pretty much unheard of
[14:10] Speaker 2: 10 years ago. In the last five years, it's certainly exploded.
[14:14] Speaker 2: Let me just come back. First of all, you know,
[14:18] Speaker 2: when people ask me about this explosion and, you know,
[14:22] Speaker 2: there are two distinct camps. And I know this has
[14:25] Speaker 2: been quite simplistic, but two kind of camps of kids
[14:28] Speaker 2: that have gender distress. And one is, stereotypically, they come along,
[14:37] Speaker 2: parents say, our son, stereotypically, boy is 13 and has
[14:43] Speaker 2: been distressed about his gender his entire life. We can't
[14:47] Speaker 2: remember a time that this child was not distressed. We
[14:51] Speaker 2: have memories of when he was two and it has
[14:54] Speaker 2: caused him absolute emotional turmoil his entire life. He has
[15:00] Speaker 2: no other history of mental health difficulties. There's no other
[15:03] Speaker 2: significant trauma in his life. And the family are quite supportive, though,
[15:10] Speaker 2: you know, obviously seeking some help. So that was traditionally
[15:14] Speaker 2: extremely rare, but it did happen. We had these individuals
[15:18] Speaker 2: coming forward and gender dysphoria and gender distress is still
[15:23] Speaker 2: in what we call our DSM, so our book of
[15:25] Speaker 2: mental health difficulties. That's not me being controversial. as some
[15:29] Speaker 2: might say, it is in that book and still listed
[15:33] Speaker 2: as a mental health difficulty because of the distress that
[15:37] Speaker 2: it produces for someone. Now, the cohort of children that
[15:43] Speaker 2: has exploded in their presentations and frequency to a clinic
[15:47] Speaker 2: like ours in the last five years is quite different.
[15:51] Speaker 2: They are a child presenting typically just before puberty at
[15:55] Speaker 2: 11 or 12 years old, a lot of females presenting,
[16:01] Speaker 2: parents reporting that there is no history of gender distress
[16:05] Speaker 2: at all. This is the first they've heard of it.
[16:07] Speaker 2: In fact, it's suddenly cropped up in the last few months. However,
[16:12] Speaker 2: there is a history of some other mental health difficulties,
[16:14] Speaker 2: whether that be generalised anxiety, whether that be a developmental
[16:18] Speaker 2: disorder like autism, whether that be some family trauma like
[16:23] Speaker 2: a high-conflict divorce or separation, whether that be some other
[16:26] Speaker 2: events that have taken place. So there is a history
[16:29] Speaker 2: of some other difficulties. There is also the fact that,
[16:33] Speaker 2: as you alluded to, many of their friendship group is
[16:36] Speaker 2: also identifying either as transgender or or some type of
[16:41] Speaker 2: other identity linked to their sexuality. And if I could
[16:44] Speaker 2: be as cheeky to go as far as saying gay
[16:46] Speaker 2: is probably not trendy enough now. We see very few
[16:50] Speaker 2: children identifying as perhaps I'm gay, which I actually think
[16:53] Speaker 2: we can make light of, but at the same time,
[16:56] Speaker 2: quite a serious issue that perhaps a lot of these
[16:59] Speaker 2: you know, gender questioning kids are gay. But we've come
[17:03] Speaker 2: so far in this wonderful in accepting homosexuality and people
[17:08] Speaker 2: being gays is normal, but it's actually not pushing that
[17:12] Speaker 2: line of controversy anymore. And they're poly or they've come
[17:17] Speaker 2: and educate me about the pronouns and names that they
[17:20] Speaker 2: are now identifying as. So those two cohorts are very
[17:23] Speaker 2: different presentations. And so when a child presents to someone
[17:28] Speaker 2: like me, we have to do that assessment. And for
[17:33] Speaker 2: the vast majority of children, they are coming with a
[17:38] Speaker 2: what we call sudden onset of gender distress. It's only
[17:41] Speaker 2: just occurred in the last six months, but they have
[17:44] Speaker 2: a history of some other difficulties. Now, if anyone has
[17:47] Speaker 2: worked or has a 12-year-old girl in their house, the
[17:51] Speaker 2: worst thing I can say to that client is, don't
[17:55] Speaker 2: be silly. No, you're not. You're a girl. because they'll just,
[17:58] Speaker 2: I mean, that's not going to work, right? They know
[18:00] Speaker 2: better than me. They know better than anyone. And for them,
[18:03] Speaker 2: it's very real distress. And so that's when we get
[18:06] Speaker 2: into this controversy about gender affirming care. And I've been
[18:10] Speaker 2: very critical of gender affirming care for children. And so
[18:14] Speaker 2: people say to me, well, do you refuse to call
[18:17] Speaker 2: them their preferred name then, Claire? No, of course I don't.
[18:21] Speaker 2: If someone wants to be called something different and I
[18:23] Speaker 2: will use their preferred name and I'll say, okay, you're
[18:27] Speaker 2: now known as Sam. Okay, Sam, no problem. Come into
[18:31] Speaker 2: my office. What I generally do, Justin, is I kind
[18:36] Speaker 2: of validate and say, yes, you're going through this distress
[18:39] Speaker 2: and we just park the issue. Because generally speaking, there
[18:44] Speaker 2: is a lot of other things we can work through.
[18:46] Speaker 2: It's the bullying at school. It's the history of anxiety.
[18:49] Speaker 2: It's mum and dad's divorce. It's the autism that we
[18:52] Speaker 2: can help with some social skills and regulation. So there's
[18:56] Speaker 2: a lot of other things to work on. And we
[18:59] Speaker 2: start there. And we start a very exploratory approach. But
[19:03] Speaker 2: we start treating a lot of the other things that
[19:05] Speaker 2: are there without dismissing the gender distress. And... I can
[19:10] Speaker 2: tell you that the children that I have seen in
[19:13] Speaker 2: our clinic after working with us in quite a long-term
[19:17] Speaker 2: fashion compared to how we normally work with kids, I mean,
[19:19] Speaker 2: they're with us kind of a year or two, it
[19:22] Speaker 2: does fade into the background. And they might, as you
[19:25] Speaker 2: said with this case study yourself with friends, they might
[19:28] Speaker 2: jump from saying I'm trans to now I'm bisexual, now
[19:32] Speaker 2: I think I'm something else. And that's okay, that's okay.
[19:36] Speaker 2: And we keep working on the other issues and we
[19:38] Speaker 2: keep working on the family relationships and the dynamics. And,
[19:42] Speaker 2: you know, we don't get into this kind of no,
[19:44] Speaker 2: you're not, yes, I am position. And I coach parents
[19:47] Speaker 2: to do that as well. My concern, Justin, is that
[19:52] Speaker 2: other clinicians may take a very different approach and particularly
[19:57] Speaker 2: if a child at 16 is is wanting a double
[20:00] Speaker 2: mastectomy and they may be presented with someone who's quite
[20:05] Speaker 2: affirming of that, as you said, they could absolutely go
[20:09] Speaker 2: down a very speedy medical path that is irreversible. And
[20:14] Speaker 2: there's a lot of evidence coming out to show that
[20:16] Speaker 2: things like puberty blockers are creating irreversible damage. My concern
[20:22] Speaker 2: is the speed at which children are put onto a
[20:25] Speaker 2: medical pathway.
[20:26] Speaker 1: Claire, there's so much more that we could talk about.
[20:29] Speaker 1: Our time is well and truly done. Let's bring it
[20:32] Speaker 1: back to where we began because we've kind of ended
[20:35] Speaker 1: up at the tip of the spear, the really pointy stuff,
[20:38] Speaker 1: the downstream effect of a child being influenced by content
[20:41] Speaker 1: that's being shared in a classroom that they may never
[20:44] Speaker 1: have thought of had it not been brought up in
[20:45] Speaker 1: the classroom. And now all of a sudden they're trying
[20:48] Speaker 1: to find their true and authentic self, but maybe getting
[20:50] Speaker 1: very confused along the way. For some, it's exactly probably, potentially,
[20:54] Speaker 1: maybe what they need. For others, it may be one
[20:57] Speaker 1: of the worst things that could ever happen to them.
[20:59] Speaker 1: I think that there's this blanket that we're throwing across
[21:02] Speaker 1: all students, presenting them with this material so early at
[21:06] Speaker 1: a developmentally inappropriate time, I believe, and then leaving them
[21:09] Speaker 1: to figure it out on their own or to fight
[21:11] Speaker 1: with their families about it. So just a practical tip
[21:14] Speaker 1: as we wrap up. If a parent is worried, hearing
[21:18] Speaker 1: this chat and just thinking, I have no idea what
[21:20] Speaker 1: the kids are being taught about sexuality at school, what
[21:23] Speaker 1: do you encourage parents to do to get across this?
[21:27] Speaker 2: I would encourage parents to see if they can open
[21:31] Speaker 2: up a discussion with their school or with other parents.
[21:35] Speaker 2: And perhaps I think it's always easier if you approach
[21:40] Speaker 2: a school in a group of two or three and,
[21:43] Speaker 2: you know, without any accusatory language or anything like that,
[21:46] Speaker 2: just a helpful dialogue to say, hey, As a parent,
[21:50] Speaker 2: I'd really like to know what they're being taught around
[21:53] Speaker 2: this particular issue. Could you provide me with some of
[21:56] Speaker 2: the lesson plans, the curriculum, the detail around it? because
[22:01] Speaker 2: we don't want to jump to conclusions and we can't
[22:03] Speaker 2: make decisions before we know exactly what's being taught. And
[22:06] Speaker 2: even if you then thought, okay, I'm okay with that,
[22:09] Speaker 2: but at least then you know, and you know when
[22:12] Speaker 2: it's being taught. Could you let me know kind of
[22:14] Speaker 2: when that, you know, is it term two or term three,
[22:17] Speaker 2: so that I can then follow that up if I
[22:19] Speaker 2: choose to as a parent with a discussion with my
[22:22] Speaker 2: kid as they come home. I think that It's very
[22:27] Speaker 2: hard for working, busy parents to think, gosh, now I've
[22:30] Speaker 2: got to be over my kid's curriculum as well. I
[22:32] Speaker 2: just want to be able to drop them off to school.
[22:35] Speaker 2: But I think this is too serious probably to miss.
[22:39] Speaker 2: And I would just encourage parents to, you know, have
[22:42] Speaker 2: a chat in a non-alarmist way to fellow parents and say,
[22:44] Speaker 2: what do you think, you know, would you support me
[22:48] Speaker 2: and kind of ask him or school for some further information.
[22:50] Speaker 2: So I'm equipped as a parent to know what my
[22:53] Speaker 2: child's being exposed to.
[22:55] Speaker 1: Sensible and simple. Get curious, not furious, and don't send
[22:59] Speaker 1: an eight-page email. Just go and have a chat to someone. Yeah,
[23:02] Speaker 1: great stuff. Claire, I've loved this chat. I think we
[23:06] Speaker 1: should talk again. I love having you on the podcast.
[23:08] Speaker 1: I love your insights and what you've shared. And there's
[23:10] Speaker 1: so many different topics that we can talk about. You
[23:12] Speaker 1: bring them up all the time in the papers as well.
[23:14] Speaker 1: So let's do that. Claire Rowe is a Sydney-based child
[23:18] Speaker 1: educational and developmental psychologist. And she writes for so many
[23:23] Speaker 1: people and does a whole lot of TV and a
[23:25] Speaker 1: whole lot of other stuff. You can visit her website.
[23:27] Speaker 1: We'll link to it in the show notes if you'd
[23:29] Speaker 1: like more information about what Claire's doing. The Happy Families podcast,
[23:33] Speaker 1: sound and audio engineering, is by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.
[23:36] Speaker 1: Mim Hammonds looks after our other support. And for more
[23:39] Speaker 1: information about making your family happier, you'll find it at happyfamilies.com.au.

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