# Clare Rowe on the Mental Health Industrial Complex

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 25 Oct 2026, 17 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/85f36d52-d9d5-4bcc-8df3-b4e7007fc5fe/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

What if all our talk about mental health is making it harder for kids to cope with life? Dr Justin Coulson sits down with educational and developmental psychologist Claire Rowe to unpack the rise of therapy speak, the dangers of labelling normal emotions as mental health problems, and why constantly checking in on how our kids feel might not be helping them. Discover how to support children through difficult feelings without teaching them to fear every bump in the road. Key Points • How therapy speak on social media is changing the way we see ourselves and others • Why labelling children as anxious or sensitive can shape their identity • When mental health labels help and when they go too far • Why taking action and helping others can be more useful than constantly focusing inward • How to build resilience without dismissing children's feelings Quote of the Episode “You can do hard things.” Claire Rowe Resources Mentioned • Claire Rowe Psychologist on Instagram • Rowe and Associates, Sydney • Lucy Foulkes, psychologist and researcher • Sami Timimi, psychiatrist • Abigail Shrier, author Action Steps for Parents • Talk about feelings using everyday words like worried, sad or disappointed rather than turning every emotion into a label. • Remind your child that difficult feelings are normal and that asking for help is okay. • Encourage them to take small steps through challenging situations instead of automatically avoiding them. • Help them connect with others through family, friendships, sport, hobbies and community. • Let your child know you are there to support them, even when they have a hard day. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: G'day, this is the Happy Families podcast. About a month ago,
[0:08] Speaker 1: I had a wonderful conversation with an educational and developmental
[0:12] Speaker 1: psychologist based in Sydney by the name of Claire Rowe.
[0:14] Speaker 1: You might have seen her articles in the paper. You
[0:15] Speaker 1: might have seen her on any number of different TV
[0:18] Speaker 1: shows talking about some of the biggest challenges that our
[0:20] Speaker 1: children are facing from a psychological point of view, but
[0:22] Speaker 1: also what the psychology culture of today is doing to us. Today,
[0:28] Speaker 1: we're going to step into, I'm going to call it
[0:30] Speaker 1: a really hot button topic, Claire and I are going
[0:33] Speaker 1: to discuss the mental health industrial complex for a decade
[0:37] Speaker 1: or more. We've been telling our kids, probably for two
[0:40] Speaker 1: decades actually, we've been telling our kids to talk about
[0:42] Speaker 1: their feelings, to name the anxiety, to check in on
[0:45] Speaker 1: their mental health, to do the wellbeing module. And over
[0:48] Speaker 1: that same decade, with all of this extra emphasis on
[0:51] Speaker 1: our kids and their mental health, All we've seen happen
[0:54] Speaker 1: is that rates of anxiety and depression in young people
[0:56] Speaker 1: have gone up rather than down. Resilience has plummeted rather
[1:00] Speaker 1: than grown. And Claire Rowe doesn't think that's a coincidence.
[1:04] Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that next. Stay with us. Hello,
[1:10] Speaker 1: welcome to the Happy Families podcast, where you get real
[1:11] Speaker 1: parenting solutions every single day. It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
[1:14] Speaker 1: My name is Dr. Justin Coulson. I'm a dad of
[1:16] Speaker 1: six kids, and today I'm with Claire Rowe. Claire's got
[1:19] Speaker 1: her own kids plus a psychology practice, and she writes
[1:23] Speaker 1: and speaks about all things mental health and psychological as
[1:27] Speaker 1: it applies to our kids. Claire, really good to have
[1:29] Speaker 1: you on the podcast today. I want to start with
[1:32] Speaker 1: a really simple idea. Nowadays, it seems like tricky people
[1:39] Speaker 1: are all narcissists. It feels like if we're dealing with difficulty,
[1:43] Speaker 1: it's trauma. If somebody is struggling, They're depressed. And if
[1:47] Speaker 1: there's anything that we're nervous, worried, or concerned about, it's
[1:50] Speaker 1: an anxiety disorder. What's going on? Have I got this right?
[1:53] Speaker 1: Am I overstating? I mean, I don't feel like psychologists
[1:57] Speaker 1: speak like this, but I do feel like the lexicon
[2:00] Speaker 1: from TikTok and Instagram, the psychology that's being repeated on
[2:06] Speaker 1: social media is creating something that's not actually, I want
[2:09] Speaker 1: to say real. That feels like it could be a
[2:11] Speaker 1: bit harsh. Help me out here.
[2:13] Speaker 2: No, it's not harsh. You're speaking my language. Yeah, it's
[2:19] Speaker 2: a real problem. And when you say psychologists don't speak
[2:22] Speaker 2: like that or psychiatrists, I mean, we did. These are
[2:27] Speaker 2: very clinical terms. This is clinical medical language. A narcissist
[2:32] Speaker 2: is a diagnosis of a personality disorder that at one
[2:37] Speaker 2: point was confined to a doctor or a mental health
[2:40] Speaker 2: clinician doing a full assessment, thorough assessment and giving a
[2:44] Speaker 2: medical diagnosis. And now, as you said, it's on TikTok.
[2:48] Speaker 1: Now a difficult mother-in-law, she's a narcissist, right?
[2:51] Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. And anyone who disagrees with you is gaslighting
[2:55] Speaker 2: you or toxic. We've got to put boundaries in place.
[2:58] Speaker 2: And all of this therapy speak, as I call it,
[3:00] Speaker 2: has escaped the therapy room. And it was language there,
[3:04] Speaker 2: I think, between professionals too, to be able to you know,
[3:07] Speaker 2: kind of quickly describe patterns of behaviour. But now it's
[3:11] Speaker 2: escaped and it's out there in the world and it's
[3:13] Speaker 2: on social media and people are going to love or
[3:17] Speaker 2: hate this when I say this, but it will give
[3:20] Speaker 2: people great excuses to not look at themselves for their
[3:25] Speaker 2: own behaviour or to blame other people, to not take responsibility,
[3:30] Speaker 2: to not do hard things. You know, someone who says, well,
[3:34] Speaker 2: you know, I saw her on TikTok. I've got to
[3:36] Speaker 2: put a boundary in place. I've got to go no contact.
[3:38] Speaker 2: You know, I've got to cut family members off now.
[3:41] Speaker 1: Families are being decimated by this. It just breaks my heart.
[3:45] Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So where did all that, I suppose,
[3:50] Speaker 2: come from? Apart from, I think, a huge driver, as
[3:53] Speaker 2: you said, is social media, massive driver.
[3:55] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
[3:55] Speaker 2: But in terms of mental health awareness and language, like
[4:00] Speaker 2: most things in life, the pendulum swings and it swings
[4:03] Speaker 2: too far and then it comes back. I think there
[4:06] Speaker 2: was probably a sweet spot where we decided that mental
[4:12] Speaker 2: health education and the awareness of what mental health difficulties
[4:16] Speaker 2: were needed to come out of the shame and the
[4:19] Speaker 2: cupboard of darkness. And that was a great thing. And
[4:23] Speaker 2: I think that probably started in the late 90s where,
[4:25] Speaker 2: you know, the government introduced funding schemes, Medicare, to get
[4:30] Speaker 2: to mental health, you know, assistance and therapy. Fantastic. And
[4:35] Speaker 2: it really... was a drive with very well intentions to,
[4:41] Speaker 2: we've probably all heard it, that if you have a
[4:43] Speaker 2: mental health illness, that's the same as a broken leg.
[4:47] Speaker 2: It's the same as a physical problem and we should
[4:49] Speaker 2: not have any judgment on shame of those who do
[4:51] Speaker 2: have mental health difficulties. And then somewhere along the line,
[4:55] Speaker 2: that pendulum, I think, just kept swinging to, instead of
[5:01] Speaker 2: normalising seeking help for a mental health problem, We've kind
[5:06] Speaker 2: of normalized having the mental health problem itself. So everyone
[5:10] Speaker 2: has anxiety. It's normal. Everyone has kind of these moments
[5:15] Speaker 2: of feeling depressed and that's normal. And okay, those feelings
[5:19] Speaker 2: can be part of a normal human psyche. But also,
[5:23] Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to live in a first
[5:25] Speaker 2: world country where it's normal to have over 50% of
[5:29] Speaker 2: the population meet the criteria for a diagnosis. That's not
[5:33] Speaker 2: normal to me. It's like I don't want to live
[5:35] Speaker 2: in a population where it's normal to be obese or
[5:38] Speaker 2: normal to have poor physical health. So we want to
[5:41] Speaker 2: be careful about what we're normalizing and accepting. But then
[5:46] Speaker 2: further to your point, have we kind of broadened the
[5:50] Speaker 2: language so far that we're not even talking about mental
[5:55] Speaker 2: health diagnosis. We're talking about the normal ups and downs
[5:58] Speaker 2: of life. We're talking about stress and distress and people's
[6:03] Speaker 2: ability to be able to cope in life when we
[6:06] Speaker 2: have an array of negative feelings because that's life.
[6:12] Speaker 1: Which brings me to labels. So I feel like parents
[6:16] Speaker 1: do this at a low level and also at a, well,
[6:19] Speaker 1: I'm going to use the word clinical at a clinical level.
[6:21] Speaker 1: So parents might say, oh, she's my anxious one or
[6:24] Speaker 1: he's my sensitive one.
[6:25] Speaker 2: Yes.
[6:26] Speaker 1: And what does that do to a child to be
[6:29] Speaker 1: described that way by their parents inside their own family?
[6:33] Speaker 2: You're probably not surprised to hear that as someone working
[6:36] Speaker 2: in a mental health clinic with children and adolescents, children
[6:40] Speaker 2: often come into our office saying, I have anxiety. I
[6:45] Speaker 2: have depression.
[6:46] Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm depressed.
[6:47] Speaker 2: I find that just astonishing. And I always try to
[6:51] Speaker 2: change that language. First of all, I actually don't use
[6:54] Speaker 2: the word anxiety. I just use worries. And I feel worried.
[6:58] Speaker 2: That's okay. I feel worried rather than I have something
[7:01] Speaker 2: that is kind of this identity to me or imposed
[7:04] Speaker 2: on me because it becomes very self-fulfilling.
[7:08] Speaker 1: I remember my nan used to say, oh, you've got
[7:10] Speaker 1: the blues, do you? If I was down, she'd say, oh,
[7:14] Speaker 1: you've got the blues. But now we've gone the other way.
[7:16] Speaker 1: We don't say, I have anxiety about the test. We say,
[7:18] Speaker 1: I have anxiety. Full stop. Or worse, as you said,
[7:23] Speaker 1: I'm anxious, which isn't a possession. It's not something that
[7:28] Speaker 1: you have. It's something that you are. My question is this.
[7:33] Speaker 1: When does a label genuinely help? Because I'm not anti-label,
[7:36] Speaker 1: and you're a psychologist, so I'm assuming you're not anti-label either.
[7:38] Speaker 1: But I do have Yeah, I completely agree.
[7:45] Speaker 2: I think that labels can be beneficial. I have colleagues
[7:49] Speaker 2: who disagree with that, actually. They want to get rid
[7:51] Speaker 2: of all labels. But I'm not as radical. I think
[7:54] Speaker 2: labels can help understand oneself, particularly when you do have
[7:57] Speaker 2: more of a developmental condition. And perhaps a developmental disorder
[8:03] Speaker 2: like autism or something that probably is not going to
[8:07] Speaker 2: go away and it helps you understand your brain and
[8:09] Speaker 2: how it works or ADHD and it helps you, yeah, okay,
[8:13] Speaker 2: I understand who I am and why I react the
[8:15] Speaker 2: way I do and why I see the world the
[8:17] Speaker 2: way I do. And then it can help others around,
[8:19] Speaker 2: make those accommodations and understand you as a person. And
[8:23] Speaker 2: of course, we know that labels are linked very heavily
[8:27] Speaker 2: still to opportunities for access to help, whether that be
[8:30] Speaker 2: financial access or, you know, access to programs and so forth.
[8:34] Speaker 2: So they are important, but I think, I do think
[8:37] Speaker 2: that they are overused. I mean, I think I've been
[8:39] Speaker 2: saying this for the best part of 15 years and
[8:41] Speaker 2: I think that the last few years people are starting
[8:44] Speaker 2: to agree with me. I didn't have many supporters 10
[8:47] Speaker 2: years ago when I was saying it, but I thought
[8:49] Speaker 2: I can really see where this is going. I can
[8:52] Speaker 2: really see that labelling, you know, every emotion as having
[8:56] Speaker 2: some type of mental health difficulty is not going to motivate, encourage,
[9:02] Speaker 2: burn people on to overcome that adversity.
[9:04] Speaker 1: Music Okay, we're back. It's the Happy Families podcast. Today
[9:14] Speaker 1: I'm with Claire Rowe. Claire's got her own kids plus
[9:17] Speaker 1: a psychology practice. I've been fascinated by some research out
[9:20] Speaker 1: of the UK. It's been really promoted by a psychologist
[9:26] Speaker 1: over there by the name of Lucy Folks. Also a
[9:30] Speaker 1: psychiatrist in the UK by the name of Sammy Tamimi.
[9:33] Speaker 1: Really making strong arguments and pointing to research evidence that
[9:37] Speaker 1: indicates that all these mental health conversations that we're having
[9:40] Speaker 1: with kids in schools are And yet, my sense is
[9:45] Speaker 1: that the most common, the strongest argument against what you're
[9:49] Speaker 1: saying would be that we need to talk about it
[9:52] Speaker 1: because this is better mental health literacy. Like once upon
[9:56] Speaker 1: a time, people used to suffer in silence. They had
[9:58] Speaker 1: no words for this at all. And aren't we better
[10:01] Speaker 1: off with a slightly overused vocabulary? Isn't that better than
[10:04] Speaker 1: no vocabulary at all? I hear that claim all the time.
[10:08] Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm told, you know, Claire Rowe
[10:10] Speaker 2: wants to send people back to the 1950s. We want
[10:13] Speaker 2: to put up and shut up and we're not to
[10:14] Speaker 2: talk about our feelings anymore. And that is absolutely not
[10:18] Speaker 2: the case. Coming back, you know, to where we started,
[10:22] Speaker 2: I think we need to be very careful about the
[10:24] Speaker 2: use of language and the clinical use of language and
[10:26] Speaker 2: the fact that our kids have access to the internet now.
[10:29] Speaker 2: And if we're going to teach people about their young
[10:32] Speaker 2: children about anxiety and they're going to Google that. They're
[10:36] Speaker 2: going to see a very strong medical clinical diagnosis rather
[10:40] Speaker 2: than teaching young children that it is okay to one,
[10:44] Speaker 2: have feelings that you don't like, of sadness, of worry.
[10:49] Speaker 2: I'll prefer to use those terms. Two, it's okay to
[10:52] Speaker 2: put your hand up for help for that. There's nothing
[10:54] Speaker 2: wrong with you. It's normal. It's okay. There are things
[10:57] Speaker 2: that we can do to help you. So I just
[11:01] Speaker 2: think that we've gone too far on the clinical language,
[11:04] Speaker 2: but also too far on the emphasis. And I love
[11:08] Speaker 2: those people that you referenced. They've also spoken about this,
[11:11] Speaker 2: as has a great author, Abigail Schreier in the US.
[11:17] Speaker 2: And Abigail talks a lot about the fact that one
[11:19] Speaker 2: of the ironies of this modern health movement that we
[11:23] Speaker 2: have is that the more we think and focus on
[11:26] Speaker 2: our emotions, we think the healthier we will become. And
[11:30] Speaker 2: you may know, Justin, that... One of the great things
[11:35] Speaker 2: about focusing inward on oneself is that it is actually
[11:39] Speaker 2: closely tied to what we call neuroticism, which is kind
[11:43] Speaker 2: of depression, anxiety feelings. And actually what helps the human
[11:49] Speaker 2: is looking outward. What can we do for others and
[11:52] Speaker 2: putting ourselves in a place in the world that is bigger,
[11:55] Speaker 2: which is why family and community and being part of
[11:59] Speaker 2: something bigger is so important for us. So my concern
[12:03] Speaker 2: is this constant focus on how are you feeling today?
[12:08] Speaker 2: Let's mark the feeling on the feeling chart. Where do
[12:12] Speaker 2: you feel that in your body? For the entire... grade
[12:18] Speaker 2: three population is not in fact helpful to getting them
[12:21] Speaker 2: to feel better because if you ask someone repetitively how
[12:24] Speaker 2: you feel through your day including myself at work today
[12:28] Speaker 2: the answer will end up being negative yeah.
[12:31] Speaker 1: Yeah i'm a bit tired i'm a bit hungry i'm
[12:33] Speaker 1: a bit stressed i've got a bit better stuff going
[12:35] Speaker 1: on i'd rather be on a beach in bali yeah
[12:38] Speaker 1: yeah moment of therapy for me just just quickly clear
[12:40] Speaker 1: um about a month ago i went through a really
[12:44] Speaker 1: hard time uh like I was down in the dumps.
[12:48] Speaker 1: I was feeling awful. I was feeling depressed. I felt
[12:52] Speaker 1: like I'd lost purpose. I'd lost my mojo. I'd lost everything.
[12:57] Speaker 1: I don't actually... I'm a 50-year-old man. I've got a
[13:00] Speaker 1: PhD in psychology. I've been teaching people about well-being for
[13:03] Speaker 1: a couple of decades. And I found myself literally not
[13:07] Speaker 1: wanting to move. And what you said before is... it
[13:12] Speaker 1: resonates so much because I had to give myself a
[13:14] Speaker 1: little bit of an up cut and realize this is
[13:16] Speaker 1: not about me. There's a phrase that I heard one
[13:19] Speaker 1: dad shared with his son who was complaining because life
[13:21] Speaker 1: was hard. He wasn't enjoying what he thought he was
[13:23] Speaker 1: supposed to be doing. And his dad just said, forget
[13:26] Speaker 1: yourself and go to work. And it's a little bit
[13:30] Speaker 1: of tough medicine in some ways. And I cringe as
[13:32] Speaker 1: I say it in some ways, and I know many
[13:34] Speaker 1: people will. And yet it took me to get out
[13:37] Speaker 1: of my own way, stop thinking about myself and literally
[13:41] Speaker 1: just get on with it before I was able to
[13:46] Speaker 1: shake off the funk. Action. I feel as though action
[13:49] Speaker 1: is the greatest antidote there is for our anxiety and
[13:53] Speaker 1: our sadness and our frustrations. Take action, especially action that's
[13:56] Speaker 1: not focused on self, but focused on something bigger than self,
[14:00] Speaker 1: whether it's relationships or whether it's work or whether it's
[14:03] Speaker 1: sport or whether it's religion or whatever it is that's
[14:05] Speaker 1: bigger than you that you get into. It seems like
[14:08] Speaker 1: that is better than sitting in the bedroom, eating some
[14:12] Speaker 1: double choc fudge connoisseur ice cream out of those one
[14:15] Speaker 1: litre containers and staring at your navel. Not that I'm
[14:18] Speaker 1: speaking from experience, Clare.
[14:20] Speaker 2: That does sound pretty good. No, no, you're absolutely right.
[14:25] Speaker 2: And people listening to this, you know, it is a balance.
[14:27] Speaker 2: It is a balance. We have done fabulous work in
[14:30] Speaker 2: initiatives like Are You Okay Day? I mean, that's great.
[14:34] Speaker 2: We need to look out for people. We need to
[14:35] Speaker 2: monitor people. It's that balance between that and if I
[14:40] Speaker 2: could have one slogan in our psychology clinic here in
[14:43] Speaker 2: Sydney that I always repeat and want it up in
[14:46] Speaker 2: neon lights, it is, you can do hard things. I'm
[14:51] Speaker 2: always trying to tell kids, my own daughter this morning
[14:55] Speaker 2: actually getting to school, is that you can do this
[14:59] Speaker 2: and you might have a pretty rotten day. You're not
[15:02] Speaker 2: feeling 100%. I agree. It might not be the best day,
[15:06] Speaker 2: but you know what? At the end of it, you're
[15:08] Speaker 2: going to have an head and two arms and two legs.
[15:11] Speaker 2: She looked at me, I said, you're going to survive that.
[15:15] Speaker 2: And I'll be here for you when you get home
[15:16] Speaker 2: and we'll chat about it then, but you can do
[15:19] Speaker 2: hard things. And I just don't want to teach an
[15:21] Speaker 2: entire generation of children to take their kind of psychological
[15:25] Speaker 2: temperature every five minutes. And then we, as I say,
[15:29] Speaker 2: we worry when they've got a fever. Sometimes action is
[15:33] Speaker 2: a great antidote to getting on with things and putting
[15:37] Speaker 2: one foot in front of the other.
[15:39] Speaker 1: I was going to ask for your top five steps
[15:40] Speaker 1: and all that kind of thing, but I actually think
[15:41] Speaker 1: that's a really good place to stop right there. That mantra,
[15:44] Speaker 1: you can do hard things, take action. My mum used
[15:47] Speaker 1: to always say when I was feeling lousy and I'd say,
[15:49] Speaker 1: I can't do it, I can't. And then I would
[15:52] Speaker 1: say can't means don't want to. And while I'm not
[15:56] Speaker 1: huge on tough love and dismissing children's distress, I don't
[16:01] Speaker 1: think that's helpful. It feels like the pendulum has swung
[16:04] Speaker 1: too far and we need to bring it back a
[16:06] Speaker 1: little bit to a sensible centre. And this conversation that
[16:09] Speaker 1: we've had, Claire, feels like it's part of the antidote,
[16:12] Speaker 1: part of what our children need to thrive and flourish.
[16:15] Speaker 1: You've been so generous with your time. I've loved this conversation.
[16:17] Speaker 1: I said it last time we talked and I'm saying
[16:19] Speaker 1: it again. I reckon you and I could sit down
[16:21] Speaker 1: for weeks and just not ever stop talking about all
[16:24] Speaker 1: these things. They're fascinating. You do a great job with
[16:27] Speaker 1: your content. If people want to know more about how
[16:29] Speaker 1: they can access what you've written or even your services
[16:32] Speaker 1: in the south of Sydney, where should they go?
[16:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can follow me online. I'm on the
[16:39] Speaker 2: gram on Instagram at Claire Rowe Psychologist or we are, yes,
[16:44] Speaker 2: in Sydney at Rowe and Associates, but you can Google
[16:47] Speaker 2: my name and find it pretty easily. Fantastic.
[16:49] Speaker 1: Well, it's great to talk with you and I love
[16:51] Speaker 1: your insights and your wisdom. Thanks for sharing.
[16:53] Speaker 2: Thanks, Justin.
[16:54] Speaker 1: That's Claire Rowe Psychologist focusing on educational and developmental psychology
[16:59] Speaker 1: and her Rowe and Associates Clinic in Sydney. Sound and
[17:02] Speaker 1: audio engineering on the Happy Families podcast is taken care
[17:05] Speaker 1: of by Justin Rulon from Bridge Media. Wim Hammonds looks
[17:08] Speaker 1: after our admin and other support. And for more details
[17:11] Speaker 1: about making your family happier, you'll find it at happyfamilies.com.au.

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