# Can We Ban Laptops From Primary School?

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 30 Aug 2026, 18 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/8af79574-5f2e-42d2-a904-b4ac001cfa55/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

We put laptops and tablets into classrooms with a promise that technology would improve education. Nearly two decades later, parents and teachers are asking a confronting question: Did we get it wrong? Justin speaks with Danny Alachi, founder of the Heads Up Alliance, and Victorian high school teacher Steph Challis about the push to reduce screen use in Australian schools. They unpack classroom distraction, declining literacy, the value of handwriting and physical books, and why teaching digital skills doesn’t require kids to spend every lesson behind a screen. They also explain a new national petition calling for no one-to-one devices in primary schools, books and paper to become the default in high school, a pause on generative AI in classrooms, safer evidence-based educational apps, and a renewed focus on reading and handwriting. KEY POINTS • Why one-to-one devices may be doing more harm than good in primary classrooms • The distraction problem teachers are seeing when laptops are open • Why books, handwriting and paper still matter for learning • The difference between teaching digital literacy and teaching through a screen • Why technology should have to prove it improves learning before schools adopt it • The five changes the Heads Up Alliance wants Australian schools to make QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “Schools need to remember what they're for. They're there to teach children how to learn.” Steph Challis RESOURCES MENTIONED • Heads Up Alliance • Sign the petition ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS • Look at how devices are being used in your child’s classroom, not simply whether they are being used. • Ask your school when screens genuinely improve learning and when books, paper and handwriting could work better. • Read the petition and sign it if you support the proposed changes. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast.
[0:07] Speaker 2: We're kicking off our Monday with a controversial, provocative topic
[0:10] Speaker 2: and a petition that.
[0:11] Speaker 1: You can sign at the end of it if you
[0:12] Speaker 1: really like it.
[0:13] Speaker 2: Screens in schools in 2007, 2008, Kevin Rudd introduced the
[0:17] Speaker 2: education revolution.
[0:19] Speaker 1: Why?
[0:19] Speaker 2: Because apparently every student needed to have a laptop or
[0:22] Speaker 2: a tablet so that they could learn better. There was
[0:24] Speaker 2: no evidence for it, and there are some pretty strong
[0:26] Speaker 2: arguments that it has not just not worked, but been
[0:29] Speaker 2: an absolute, catastrophic, colossal failure. Today on the podcast, an
[0:34] Speaker 2: interview with Danny Alachi, the founder of the National Grassroots Movement,
[0:40] Speaker 2: the Heads Up Alliance, and Steph Chalice, a mum of two,
[0:43] Speaker 2: a Victorian high school teacher, and somebody who's getting right
[0:46] Speaker 2: on board with what this is all about. The conversation
[0:49] Speaker 2: about kids, screens, and the classroom is next.
[0:53] Speaker 1: Stay with us.
[0:56] Speaker 2: This is the Happy Families podcast. So glad you could
[0:58] Speaker 2: join us today. Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
[1:01] Speaker 1: My name's Dr. Justin Coulson. Today, joined by Danny Elachi.
[1:03] Speaker 2: Danny's the father of five and the founder of the
[1:05] Speaker 2: Heads Up Alliance, a national grassroots movement of families navigating
[1:08] Speaker 2: a tech-saturated world with their children.
[1:10] Speaker 1: Father of five, Danny. Congratulations. Are you young enough to
[1:14] Speaker 1: go for the record? Are you going to try and
[1:16] Speaker 1: meet me at six or do you think five will do?
[1:19] Speaker 3: No, I'll have to give you the accolades, Justin. There's
[1:22] Speaker 3: no way I'm going to be able to meet you
[1:25] Speaker 3: at six.
[1:26] Speaker 1: I'll carry the trophy with pride.
[1:28] Speaker 2: Heads Up Alliance is a national grassroots movement of families
[1:30] Speaker 2: navigating a tech-saturated world with their children. And Steph Chalice,
[1:34] Speaker 2: Steph and I met when I was speaking at Moama
[1:37] Speaker 2: at Chuka. In fact, Steph got me down there to
[1:39] Speaker 2: speak to about 400 people in, was it the local
[1:41] Speaker 2: RSL or something, Steph?
[1:42] Speaker 1: And we had such a great night.
[1:44] Speaker 4: It was a fantastic night. Yeah, we really, really brought
[1:47] Speaker 4: a lot to our town, Justin.
[1:48] Speaker 2: Yeah, Steph's a mum of two, a Victorian high school teacher.
[1:52] Speaker 2: and is passionate about ensuring Australia's classrooms are the best
[1:55] Speaker 2: possible places for our students to learn. Okay, before the
[1:58] Speaker 2: podcast starts, before we talk about any of the questions
[2:00] Speaker 2: I have, the main thing that I want you to
[2:03] Speaker 2: get out of this is that in the show notes,
[2:04] Speaker 2: there's a link to a petition. The Heads Up Alliance
[2:07] Speaker 2: has a petition at change.org asking Australian parents to sign,
[2:13] Speaker 2: agreeing that Australian parents and teachers are demanding less screen
[2:15] Speaker 2: time in classrooms. There are five propositions. We're going to
[2:18] Speaker 2: talk about them at the end of today's podcast. But
[2:21] Speaker 2: I want to be really clear, the whole purpose of
[2:22] Speaker 2: today's pod is to get you to take a couple
[2:24] Speaker 2: of seconds, click on the link and sign this petition, please.
[2:28] Speaker 2: It matters so much for our children and their learning outcomes. Steph,
[2:32] Speaker 2: make the argument for me that Kevin Rudd's education revolution,
[2:36] Speaker 2: bringing screens into the classroom for every student, has not
[2:39] Speaker 2: made our classrooms the best possible places for our students
[2:43] Speaker 2: to learn.
[2:44] Speaker 4: Well, these devices came in, Justin, in around 2008 with
[2:49] Speaker 4: Kevin Rudd's government, as you mentioned. We are now almost
[2:53] Speaker 4: 15 or more years on from that. When they came in,
[2:56] Speaker 4: we didn't have any evidence that they would increase our
[3:00] Speaker 4: learning outcomes, increase education for our students. We're now so
[3:03] Speaker 4: far down the track that we have that evidence and
[3:05] Speaker 4: it is overwhelming that it's not doing the job that
[3:08] Speaker 4: they promised.
[3:09] Speaker 2: Danny, we met at Kirribilli House at the Prime Minister's
[3:13] Speaker 2: residence in December last year. We got to catch up
[3:15] Speaker 2: when the brand new social media minimum age legislation was
[3:20] Speaker 2: enacted the very day. And Heads Up Alliance was instrumental
[3:25] Speaker 2: in getting that legislation into Parliament and to pass. You
[3:30] Speaker 2: formed in 2020 during COVID with the idea that we
[3:35] Speaker 2: just need to help parents not just delay social media access,
[3:40] Speaker 2: engagement but delay the age at which kids are getting smartphones.
[3:45] Speaker 2: Based on what Steph said, you guys have created a
[3:47] Speaker 2: petition about screens in schools. Can you go a little
[3:51] Speaker 2: bit deeper? Tell me more about this petition.
[3:54] Speaker 3: First thing I have to say is that the credit
[3:56] Speaker 3: for this petition has to go to the teachers in
[3:58] Speaker 3: our movement like Steph and many others who have obviously
[4:03] Speaker 3: been part of our journey over the last few years
[4:06] Speaker 3: but have also been saying to us very quietly in
[4:08] Speaker 3: the background that What about schools? What about the screens
[4:12] Speaker 3: in schools? And, you know, as you know, Justin, we've
[4:15] Speaker 3: been really busy with all these other campaigns, particularly the
[4:18] Speaker 3: minimum age legislation over the last few years. But once
[4:23] Speaker 3: that was behind us in terms of lobbying, I thought,
[4:27] Speaker 3: you know, maybe it is time to address this issue.
[4:30] Speaker 3: And we formed a little subcommittee of teachers, including Steph
[4:35] Speaker 3: and many others, to work on this. We've been working
[4:39] Speaker 3: on it for the last, seven or eight months thereabouts.
[4:44] Speaker 3: We've been consulting experts, consulting neuroscientists, psychologists. It isn't something
[4:50] Speaker 3: we've just revved up overnight. We've really done a lot
[4:52] Speaker 3: of reading. A lot of conversations have gone into this petition,
[4:56] Speaker 3: which is based on five principles. And we think that
[4:59] Speaker 3: now is actually the right time to be bringing this forward. Particularly,
[5:03] Speaker 3: you know, we saw the results that came out nationally
[5:07] Speaker 3: through NAPLAN a couple of weeks ago. You know, we
[5:11] Speaker 3: thought the 2025 reading results were bad and then we
[5:15] Speaker 3: saw the 2026 results and they've gotten even worse. So
[5:18] Speaker 3: the distraction that these screens are bringing into the classroom,
[5:22] Speaker 3: I've had teachers screaming at me for the last couple
[5:25] Speaker 3: of years and not just the parents, but the teachers
[5:28] Speaker 3: as well. So I do need to make that really
[5:30] Speaker 3: clear that this is not just parent driven. It's parents
[5:33] Speaker 3: who also are teachers who know exactly what's going on
[5:36] Speaker 3: at the coalface.
[5:37] Speaker 1: I'm on your side on this. I'm absolutely biased. I
[5:40] Speaker 1: completely agree.
[5:41] Speaker 2: This is a good thing. And I want to talk
[5:43] Speaker 2: about the petition specifics shortly. But I want to talk
[5:46] Speaker 2: about a couple of counter arguments that people might make
[5:48] Speaker 2: because not everybody is as on board. And there will
[5:51] Speaker 2: be some people who have skepticism. And I would even
[5:54] Speaker 2: admit some of that skepticism is healthy. One of the
[5:57] Speaker 2: things that pops into my mind as I'm listening to
[5:59] Speaker 2: what you're describing, Danny, is you can ban screens, but
[6:01] Speaker 2: that's not necessarily going to improve NAPLAN scores because if
[6:05] Speaker 2: kids aren't reading well, that has less to do with
[6:07] Speaker 2: what's happening in the classroom and more to do with
[6:09] Speaker 2: what's happening at home where the kids are going to
[6:12] Speaker 2: be surrounded by screens and consumed by screens all the time.
[6:16] Speaker 1: How do you respond to that?
[6:18] Speaker 3: Well, of course, we've been working on screens in the
[6:21] Speaker 3: home for years. Some of the comments we've received in
[6:24] Speaker 3: the last few weeks is, you know, don't ignore what's
[6:26] Speaker 3: happening in the home. We're like, no, absolutely not. We
[6:30] Speaker 3: know a lot of this starts in the home and
[6:32] Speaker 3: we've been working on that without any rest for six
[6:35] Speaker 3: or seven years. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try
[6:38] Speaker 3: to improve the classroom environment as well. If I could
[6:42] Speaker 3: just take you back a step, we're not asking for
[6:43] Speaker 3: a ban on screens in the classroom. We're saying that
[6:46] Speaker 3: when the teacher introduces it, particularly in high school, if
[6:49] Speaker 3: she says, take your laptops out, then please do by
[6:52] Speaker 3: all means, as long as the teacher has considered why
[6:55] Speaker 3: and what is the purpose of using a screen in
[6:58] Speaker 3: this particular lesson, that's absolutely fine. Not only is it fine,
[7:01] Speaker 3: we want that. What we don't want is the mindless,
[7:04] Speaker 3: open up your laptops at 9 a.m., and mediating every
[7:08] Speaker 3: single lesson throughout the whole day through that screen, and
[7:13] Speaker 3: no one's really paid any close attention to why. We
[7:17] Speaker 3: want to bring back the why. Now, in primary school,
[7:19] Speaker 3: we have taken a harder stance. We have said in
[7:21] Speaker 3: primary school, we don't see a need for iPads. That
[7:26] Speaker 3: doesn't say that the teacher can't use screens in her
[7:29] Speaker 3: own considered way, but we don't want one-to-one iPads in
[7:33] Speaker 3: the hands of children We know the science tells us
[7:36] Speaker 3: when you learn to read, it's best done with a book,
[7:39] Speaker 3: a tangible tool in your hand. You know, the writing.
[7:45] Speaker 3: So many of our high school teachers are complaining we
[7:47] Speaker 3: can't even read the handwriting of our high schoolers anymore.
[7:51] Speaker 3: It's just really fallen off a cliff. We're saying we
[7:53] Speaker 3: need to bring back those fundamentals because without the fundamentals
[7:57] Speaker 3: of reading and writing and basic numeracy, then everything else
[8:01] Speaker 3: in high school falls apart, including technology.
[8:04] Speaker 2: After the break, I want to confront probably the biggest
[8:07] Speaker 2: objection to this petition, plus get into the details of
[8:10] Speaker 2: the petition and give everyone a chance to get on
[8:13] Speaker 2: board if they like the sound of it. That's next
[8:15] Speaker 2: on the Happy Families podcast. We're back with the Happy
[8:24] Speaker 2: Families podcast. Steph, listening to what Danny has just said
[8:28] Speaker 2: brings up what I would consider to be the biggest
[8:30] Speaker 2: objection of all that people might have to this idea
[8:33] Speaker 2: that we need to either minimize or to the degree
[8:36] Speaker 2: that is reasonable, eliminate access to screens, particularly in those
[8:39] Speaker 2: primary school years. There will be some people who say,
[8:44] Speaker 2: we've got personal agency. Everyone's got devices. We're flooded with
[8:47] Speaker 2: devices in our lives. Therefore, wouldn't it be better rather
[8:50] Speaker 2: than getting them out of schools? Wouldn't schools have a
[8:52] Speaker 2: responsibility to embrace them and teach children how to use them?
[8:56] Speaker 1: You're in the classroom. You're dealing with this. What's your response?
[8:59] Speaker 4: I think there's probably two answers to this question. In
[9:02] Speaker 4: terms of families expecting schools to teach digital literacy, because
[9:06] Speaker 4: screens are everywhere and we'll never deny that, schools probably,
[9:10] Speaker 4: we do have a responsibility at some point. So we
[9:14] Speaker 4: are all for computer labs, maybe bringing out the one-to-one
[9:19] Speaker 4: devices on rare occasions to teach digital skills, to teach
[9:23] Speaker 4: touch typing, to teach how to file a document, all
[9:26] Speaker 4: those sorts of things that Students will need to know
[9:29] Speaker 4: as they get older and older and into the workforce.
[9:32] Speaker 4: But we've fallen into the trap of teaching all our
[9:36] Speaker 4: subjects through technology. And that has been one of the
[9:40] Speaker 4: downfalls of bringing these devices in. So that's the first point.
[9:44] Speaker 4: The second point that you made that could be an
[9:47] Speaker 4: objection where families say, well, screens are everywhere. We're using
[9:50] Speaker 4: them at home. Why aren't you using them at school?
[9:53] Speaker 4: Schools need to remember what they're for. They're for to
[9:56] Speaker 4: teach children how to learn. And so regardless of what
[10:00] Speaker 4: is happening in the rest of society, we have a
[10:02] Speaker 4: responsibility to teach in a way that we know works,
[10:05] Speaker 4: that is evidence-based. We now have the evidence that one-to-one
[10:09] Speaker 4: devices is not doing this. And so we need to
[10:11] Speaker 4: remember the job of the school and stick with that.
[10:14] Speaker 2: I've been really fascinated by the research that shows that
[10:17] Speaker 2: When we do things analog, I mean, Danny, you were
[10:20] Speaker 2: talking about the old school. And, Steph, as I was
[10:22] Speaker 2: listening to you, I was thinking there is no school
[10:24] Speaker 2: like the old school.
[10:26] Speaker 1: There's a lot of.
[10:26] Speaker 2: Arguments for progress and keeping up with modernity. And yet,
[10:31] Speaker 2: the best research that I've seen seems to indicate that
[10:34] Speaker 2: if we're learning analog, if we've got pen and paper
[10:36] Speaker 2: in hand, if we're holding a book rather than a
[10:37] Speaker 2: tablet as we consume content, we process it differently. We
[10:43] Speaker 2: learn better. We retain more. It seems like there is
[10:46] Speaker 2: not a single– to doing it the old-fashioned way and
[10:51] Speaker 2: nothing but drawbacks when we do it the modern way.
[10:53] Speaker 2: So if you've been reading the research, you're in the classroom,
[10:56] Speaker 2: you're dealing with this on a day-to-day basis, what's your
[10:59] Speaker 2: experience been like at the coalface?
[11:01] Speaker 4: I guess over the last 12 months, I've really brought
[11:04] Speaker 4: my screen use in my classroom back in terms of
[11:07] Speaker 4: my students. So... I have some year 11s who use
[11:10] Speaker 4: them on a very rare occasion, but all year levels
[11:12] Speaker 4: below that. I'm a high school teacher, I should say.
[11:15] Speaker 4: I don't even allow them to bring their devices to
[11:17] Speaker 4: class because we don't use them. I've spoken about how
[11:20] Speaker 4: they don't aid educational outcomes or learning outcomes. But the
[11:24] Speaker 4: other thing that we need to think about is how
[11:26] Speaker 4: much distraction they put in front of our students. So
[11:30] Speaker 4: there might be an app or a program that is
[11:32] Speaker 4: good for learning that But if we couple that with
[11:35] Speaker 4: the distraction that the device itself is providing to our students,
[11:39] Speaker 4: you really need to question whether it's worth it in
[11:41] Speaker 4: the first place. If we think about how we as
[11:43] Speaker 4: adults use our laptops and our iPads, we use them
[11:46] Speaker 4: to multitask. So as I was logging on to talk
[11:49] Speaker 4: to you this morning, Justin, I was quickly checking my
[11:52] Speaker 4: LinkedIn because I had a message from someone. I was
[11:55] Speaker 4: checking a work email. I was trying to get on
[11:57] Speaker 4: before you brought me up onto the screen. And that's
[12:00] Speaker 4: me as an adult. So a child's going to do that.
[12:03] Speaker 4: A child is going to open up a laptop or
[12:05] Speaker 4: an iPad that they use at home for gaming, for
[12:08] Speaker 4: social media, for whatever else. So they don't see this
[12:13] Speaker 4: as a learning tool. That's the first thing. They will
[12:15] Speaker 4: log on. They will not say this is a learning tool.
[12:17] Speaker 4: And then they will multitask. And the worst thing that
[12:21] Speaker 4: you can do for learning and retention is to multitask.
[12:24] Speaker 2: Danny, is there anything else that you've seen in the
[12:26] Speaker 2: evidence that convinces you that this is necessary, that we've
[12:30] Speaker 2: got to minimize and even where possible, eliminate the use
[12:33] Speaker 2: of screens in classrooms like Steph has done with her
[12:36] Speaker 2: high school classrooms.
[12:37] Speaker 3: I've read recently the book written by Dr. Jared Kuhnhilva
[12:42] Speaker 3: talks specifically about the distractions that screens seem to be
[12:48] Speaker 3: bringing into the classroom. The studies are good to tell
[12:51] Speaker 3: us the level of distraction, but any teacher will tell
[12:54] Speaker 3: you that half their job these days is trying to
[12:57] Speaker 3: maintain the focus of the students because, you know, they've
[13:01] Speaker 3: got their screens open. Often they're shopping or gaming or
[13:05] Speaker 3: looking up goodness knows what else while they should be
[13:08] Speaker 3: paying attention to the teacher at the front of the class.
[13:11] Speaker 3: And the book that I mentioned seems to suggest there
[13:15] Speaker 3: are studies showing that out of 60 minutes of learning,
[13:18] Speaker 3: 38 minutes if a screen is in front of the
[13:20] Speaker 3: child is spent off-task. So, you know, that alone, put
[13:26] Speaker 3: aside the science of learning and how we learn best
[13:29] Speaker 3: as humans, the fact that it's distracting, just like a
[13:32] Speaker 3: screen is distracting when you drive a vehicle. I mean,
[13:35] Speaker 3: we don't even ask for the studies. It's against the law.
[13:39] Speaker 3: It all makes sense to us. Of course, it's against
[13:41] Speaker 3: the law because you need your eyes on the road. Now,
[13:43] Speaker 3: a student needs his or her eyes on the teacher
[13:46] Speaker 3: in the classroom. Instead, we've opened up the world and
[13:49] Speaker 3: given them every reason to be distracted and completely off task.
[13:54] Speaker 3: That alone would be reason enough to try to roll
[13:59] Speaker 3: back the screen-based classroom, in my view.
[14:02] Speaker 2: Danny and Steph, I really appreciate this conversation. You want
[14:04] Speaker 2: people to sign the petition. I want people to sign
[14:06] Speaker 2: the petition. Let's go through the five steps of the
[14:08] Speaker 2: petition nice and quick, and then we'll tell people where
[14:10] Speaker 2: they can go to sign it so that we can
[14:12] Speaker 2: help our kids to learn better in classrooms and have
[14:14] Speaker 2: better classroom environments. Steph, what are the first couple of
[14:17] Speaker 2: things on this petition?
[14:18] Speaker 4: So our first point of the five principles is no
[14:22] Speaker 4: one-to-one devices in primary schools. We're also calling for, I guess, books, paper,
[14:29] Speaker 4: pen to be the default in high schools. And when
[14:33] Speaker 4: one-to-one devices are used, only used very intentionally, and when
[14:37] Speaker 4: there is solid evidence that they improve learning outcomes. We
[14:41] Speaker 4: are asking for a pause on generative AI to be
[14:45] Speaker 4: used in classrooms, which is a whole other beast in itself,
[14:48] Speaker 4: until it's proven that that is aiding our students. We
[14:53] Speaker 4: are also asking for any school endorsed apps to be
[14:59] Speaker 4: proven safe and effective.
[15:01] Speaker 2: And just before you go on, we haven't even talked
[15:03] Speaker 2: about AI, but on each of these things, you're highlighting
[15:06] Speaker 2: that you want evidence before it's implemented. And the reality
[15:09] Speaker 2: is for several of these things, we don't have any
[15:11] Speaker 2: evidence for them. Some of the most popular apps have
[15:15] Speaker 2: little to no evidence behind them. There's certainly no evidence
[15:17] Speaker 2: that using AI is going to be aiding our children's
[15:20] Speaker 2: learning at this point. In fact, all the evidence points
[15:21] Speaker 2: the other way. And even having that one-to-one screen, the
[15:25] Speaker 2: evidence is questionable.
[15:26] Speaker 1: What's the last one?
[15:27] Speaker 2: Danny, I might get you to just chime in with
[15:28] Speaker 2: the last one and tell us where people can go
[15:30] Speaker 2: to sign the petition.
[15:32] Speaker 3: There's one more principle, and that is the restoration of
[15:35] Speaker 3: handwriting and reading as core principles for a primary school student.
[15:43] Speaker 3: That seems to have fallen by the wayside to some degree.
[15:46] Speaker 3: We think these things will never go out of fashion.
[15:50] Speaker 3: If they do, it would be a sad moment for
[15:52] Speaker 3: us as human beings. Imagine the love letter being lost
[15:56] Speaker 3: for all eternity. You know, I mean, how long has
[15:58] Speaker 3: it taken for humanity to get to this point where
[16:01] Speaker 3: we've got near universal literacy rates, particularly in our countries
[16:05] Speaker 3: in the West? And then imagine we're going to lose
[16:07] Speaker 3: that beautiful art in a generation or two because we're
[16:11] Speaker 3: just so busy typing. I think it takes something away
[16:14] Speaker 3: from us as people, as humans, and we're not ready
[16:19] Speaker 3: to give it up. We also happen to have the
[16:22] Speaker 3: science behind us that tells us that this is the
[16:25] Speaker 3: best way for learning, the best way of thinking, the
[16:27] Speaker 3: best way of gathering your thoughts and presenting them in
[16:31] Speaker 3: a way that also helps you if you wish to
[16:34] Speaker 3: be a learner in older grades and indeed in adulthood. So, yeah,
[16:40] Speaker 3: we think that's really fundamental. We need to refocus on
[16:43] Speaker 3: those core basics.
[16:46] Speaker 1: Where do people go to sign this petition, Danny?
[16:48] Speaker 3: People can go to www.change.org forward slash pure screens, more learning.
[16:54] Speaker 3: We've already got tens of thousands of signatures and the
[16:58] Speaker 3: more we can garner, the easier it will be for
[17:01] Speaker 3: Steph and other teachers to take this up to the
[17:05] Speaker 3: premiers and to the education ministers around the country. We
[17:08] Speaker 3: really hope that this is going to affect at least
[17:12] Speaker 3: a serious conversation, if not some serious change.
[17:15] Speaker 2: We will link to the petition in the show notes
[17:17] Speaker 2: for the podcast. We really want you to sign this.
[17:19] Speaker 2: Please go and have a look at it.
[17:21] Speaker 1: Every signature matters. Dani, Steph, what a treat to be
[17:24] Speaker 1: with you.
[17:24] Speaker 2: Thanks so much for spending some time with me this morning.
[17:27] Speaker 4: Thanks, Justin.
[17:28] Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Justin.
[17:29] Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast, sound and audio engineering by Justin
[17:32] Speaker 2: Rulon from Bridge Media. M. Hammonds looks after our admin
[17:35] Speaker 2: and additional support. For more information about making your family happier,
[17:38] Speaker 2: visit happyfamilies.com.au.

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