# When Your Phone Gets Between You and Your Child

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 14 Oct 2026, 17 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/19eeb667-cd96-45db-815d-b4dc0038f243/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

Your phone might be getting in the way of your child’s learning, confidence and connection with you. Justin and Kylie Coulson unpack three research findings every parent should know, from the link between heavy AI use and lower school test scores to why early puberty may increase anxiety risk in girls. They also explore how being ignored while a parent scrolls can affect a teenager’s sense of security in the relationship. Discover what the research tells us, where the limits of the evidence lie, and how to give your child more opportunities to feel supported, connected and confident. KEY POINTS • AI and learning: Students who frequently use AI chatbots for schoolwork scored lower in science and reading than those who rarely use them. How children use AI matters. • Early puberty and anxiety: Research links earlier, faster puberty in girls with a higher risk of anxiety symptoms. Supportive relationships may help provide important protection. • Phone distraction and attachment: Teenagers who feel ignored by a parent’s phone use are more likely to report insecure attachment to that caregiver. QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “She needs protective factors in her life.” RESOURCES MENTIONED • PISA assessment findings on AI use and student performance, reported by Lucy Carroll in The Australian • Danish National Birth Cohort analysis on pubertal development and anxiety, published in the Journal of Affective Disorders • Research examining parental phone use, "phubbing" and adolescent attachment ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS • Encourage your child to use AI to explore ideas and learn, rather than letting it do their thinking or writing for them. • If your daughter experiences early puberty, focus on supportive relationships, trusted role models and a safe home environment. • Put your phone away when your child is trying to connect with you. Give them your attention, listen and show them they matter. • Remember that research showing a link between two things does not automatically prove that one causes the other. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Today on the Happy Families podcast, it's a research roundup.
[0:08] Speaker 1: Every Thursday, we like to look at the latest research,
[0:10] Speaker 1: what's been happening in the scientific world that can help
[0:13] Speaker 1: our families to do better. And we've got a couple
[0:15] Speaker 1: of big ones for you today that I'm really excited
[0:17] Speaker 1: to share with you. First up, students who rely heavily
[0:19] Speaker 1: on AI chatbots for schoolwork. The results are in. How
[0:23] Speaker 1: are they scoring in science and reading tests compared to
[0:26] Speaker 1: their peers? We're going to fill you in on the
[0:28] Speaker 1: latest there. Additionally, there's some brand new studies. that suggest
[0:33] Speaker 1: that fubbing, that is snubbing someone in favor of your phone,
[0:37] Speaker 1: can leave people feeling excluded. Now a new study asks,
[0:41] Speaker 1: what happens when teens are fubbed by their parental figures?
[0:45] Speaker 1: We'll find out since they do it to us so much. Oh,
[0:48] Speaker 1: and one that's probably not very helpful, but kind of interesting,
[0:53] Speaker 1: early puberty is linked to higher anxiety risk in girls.
[0:57] Speaker 1: We'll talk more about what that means for us as
[1:00] Speaker 1: parents and what we can do about it since we
[1:02] Speaker 1: can't actually slow puberty down. Stay with us. All that
[1:05] Speaker 1: and more next. Hello, welcome to the Happy Families podcast,
[1:11] Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.
[1:17] Speaker 1: We are Justin and Kylie Coulson. It's Thursday, 15th of October,
[1:21] Speaker 1: and there is some parenting news and research and science
[1:24] Speaker 1: going on, Kylie.
[1:25] Speaker 2: Well, I'm trying to work out why you're making up
[1:27] Speaker 2: for lost time.
[1:28] Speaker 1: What do you mean?
[1:29] Speaker 2: Well, we're usually going to talk about one, and you
[1:31] Speaker 2: want to try and squeeze four in? I just.
[1:33] Speaker 1: It's three. It's three. There's so much going on, and
[1:36] Speaker 1: I couldn't select one. But we're going to go quickly,
[1:38] Speaker 1: which means that we get to cover a whole bunch
[1:40] Speaker 1: of stuff that's really useful and really important. All right.
[1:43] Speaker 2: Well, shoot me. Let's go.
[1:44] Speaker 1: I love how you said, shoot me, as opposed to
[1:49] Speaker 1: just shoot. You've never really liked these ones, have you?
[1:52] Speaker 1: Here's the first one, then. This was reported by Lucy
[1:55] Speaker 1: Carroll in The Australian a couple of weeks back, and
[1:59] Speaker 1: it's really concerning because AI is everywhere. You talk to teachers,
[2:02] Speaker 1: you talk to university lecturers, talk to teachers in primary school,
[2:06] Speaker 1: for goodness sakes, and kids are using it all over
[2:08] Speaker 1: the place. We were recently spending some time with my
[2:11] Speaker 1: parents and my mum is talking to ChatGPT like she's
[2:16] Speaker 1: forgotten how to make decisions. She's 70 years old. She's
[2:18] Speaker 1: managed to get through 70 years of life. Well, she's
[2:20] Speaker 1: more than 70. She's managed to get through all these
[2:22] Speaker 1: years of life and somehow, somehow, all of a sudden,
[2:25] Speaker 1: Chat GPT is on the scene and my mum's capacity
[2:27] Speaker 1: to make decisions without conferring with the computer have gone
[2:30] Speaker 1: down the gurgler. It's called cognitive offloading and it's bad
[2:34] Speaker 1: for our brains. Although we did eat at a really
[2:36] Speaker 1: good restaurant because chat GPT sent us to exactly the
[2:38] Speaker 1: right place.
[2:40] Speaker 2: So it has its place.
[2:41] Speaker 1: It does have its place. However, the place is not
[2:43] Speaker 1: the classroom. Here's what Lucy Carroll reported. Students who rely
[2:46] Speaker 1: heavily on AI chatbots for schoolwork scored about 30 points
[2:50] Speaker 1: lower in science and reading tests than their peers who
[2:54] Speaker 1: rarely use them. This is based on a new analysis
[2:58] Speaker 1: of the PISA assessment, the Program for International Student Assessment.
[3:03] Speaker 1: What they're basically saying is that we should be deeply
[3:07] Speaker 1: concerned that school children are using chatbots because they're short-circuiting
[3:12] Speaker 1: their learning and undermining their ability to think, retain thoughts.
[3:17] Speaker 1: and recall core information. The cognitive offloading has arrived.
[3:22] Speaker 2: So what are the specifics with this particular research?
[3:27] Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. So this looked at Australian students who report
[3:29] Speaker 1: the highest use for AI for schoolwork weekly or more.
[3:31] Speaker 1: They scored 505 in the PISA in science compared with
[3:35] Speaker 1: a score of 535 for those who rarely use it.
[3:39] Speaker 1: those numbers don't mean anything. It's kind of like when
[3:41] Speaker 1: you go over a bridge and they say, this is
[3:42] Speaker 1: the flood level or the, you listen to the news
[3:44] Speaker 1: and they're like the river flooded to 5.35 meters. You're like, well,
[3:47] Speaker 1: how big is it normally? And it's 5.3. Like, what
[3:49] Speaker 1: does that really mean? So a gap of 30 points,
[3:53] Speaker 1: adjusted socioeconomic background basically says the heaviest AI users are
[3:59] Speaker 1: about a year and a half of schooling behind those
[4:02] Speaker 1: who use it the least. That's, What's the word for it? Oh, yeah, catastrophic.
[4:07] Speaker 1: A year and a half behind. So the more you're
[4:09] Speaker 1: using AI, the more likely it is that you'll be
[4:12] Speaker 1: behind in school. And PISA, which looks specifically at kids
[4:15] Speaker 1: in grade nine, 15-year-old kids, a year and a half
[4:19] Speaker 1: behind if you're a heavy AI user. And Kylie, a
[4:22] Speaker 1: similar gap was found in the reading test results. Students
[4:25] Speaker 1: who report regular use of chatbots for schoolwork scoring 32
[4:29] Speaker 1: points behind those who rarely or never use AI. Smaller
[4:33] Speaker 1: gap in maths, only 14 points. But once again, we're
[4:36] Speaker 1: talking about a year and a half, a year and
[4:38] Speaker 1: a half. Now, there's one thing that I will chuck
[4:41] Speaker 1: in here that I think is really important. We don't
[4:44] Speaker 1: know where those kids were before they were using AI.
[4:46] Speaker 1: So it might be that the kids who aren't doing
[4:48] Speaker 1: well are using AI rather than the kids who are
[4:51] Speaker 1: using AI not doing well. Do you know what I mean?
[4:54] Speaker 1: Like directionality, causality here really, really matters. But what else
[4:58] Speaker 1: matters is this, the way that children use chatbots matters.
[5:02] Speaker 1: So pupils who rely on AI to draft texts for
[5:06] Speaker 1: written assignments and to summarize a text, they perform way
[5:10] Speaker 1: worse than those who are using a chatbot for something
[5:13] Speaker 1: like do some preliminary research on a new topic or
[5:16] Speaker 1: help me to learn. Much smaller score differences there. It
[5:19] Speaker 1: really comes down to how you're using it. Worth also highlighting.
[5:24] Speaker 1: In June, Norway put a blanket ban on AI in
[5:28] Speaker 1: primary school classrooms so that they could combat these risks
[5:32] Speaker 1: because they know that it's harming critical thinking and it's
[5:35] Speaker 1: allowing students to skip fundamental steps in learning to read
[5:39] Speaker 1: and write.
[5:40] Speaker 2: So is there anything else in the PISA that was
[5:43] Speaker 2: worth noting?
[5:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a couple of things that I've noted here.
[5:46] Speaker 1: The first one, so PISA tested 15,000 kids last year
[5:50] Speaker 1: in reading maths and science. They showed the teenagers have
[5:53] Speaker 1: slipped two years behind where students were 20 years ago.
[5:56] Speaker 1: I want to say that's catastrophic. Like two years behind,
[6:00] Speaker 1: we're making school potentially a little bit easier. There's a
[6:04] Speaker 1: whole lot more cognitive offloading. 20 years ago, let me
[6:08] Speaker 1: just put this in context. 20 years ago, Kevin Rudd
[6:10] Speaker 1: promised us an education revolution and said that we needed
[6:13] Speaker 1: to get laptops and tablets in front of every student
[6:16] Speaker 1: in every classroom in the country.
[6:19] Speaker 2: I don't know.
[6:19] Speaker 1: Can we put Kevin Rudd in as possibly the worst
[6:21] Speaker 1: prime minister ever? Does that sound too political? In terms
[6:24] Speaker 1: of the outcomes for our children's education, this has been
[6:27] Speaker 1: a catastrophic decision.
[6:29] Speaker 2: I don't see it that way.
[6:32] Speaker 1: In what way? How can you say that when the
[6:34] Speaker 1: numbers have gone so far down?
[6:37] Speaker 2: Because I look at the pressure that our kids are
[6:40] Speaker 2: under to perform and based on the pathway that we've
[6:44] Speaker 2: chosen for our younger children, I'm not so worried about
[6:47] Speaker 2: when they learn. I'm just worried about how they're learning.
[6:51] Speaker 2: And if that means that they are learning at a
[6:56] Speaker 2: slightly slower rate than they did 20 years ago, I
[6:59] Speaker 2: don't see that as problematic at all.
[7:02] Speaker 1: Given that I'm very, very, very outspoken on school issues,
[7:06] Speaker 1: it's really hard for me to argue with your points
[7:08] Speaker 1: because I totally agree with you. But when I look
[7:11] Speaker 1: at the numbers, what I would say is our education
[7:15] Speaker 1: system is not working. The kids are disengaging. They're stepping away.
[7:19] Speaker 1: They're cognitively uploading.
[7:20] Speaker 2: Yes, because the way the education system is designed is
[7:24] Speaker 2: designed to disengage kids. It hasn't been designed to engage them.
[7:28] Speaker 1: Yes, and my comments aren't about the kids. It's actually
[7:30] Speaker 1: about the system. And most teachers that you talk to
[7:32] Speaker 1: will say the same thing. There was one other stat
[7:33] Speaker 1: that's worth highlighting, Kylie. Australian teenagers are among the heaviest
[7:36] Speaker 1: users of digital devices at school, averaging about 2.6 hours
[7:40] Speaker 1: each day, and half of students are using chatbots weekly
[7:42] Speaker 1: to help them learn. These are important stats. I wanted
[7:45] Speaker 1: to share them. The OECD blames smartphones and chatbots for
[7:49] Speaker 1: fast-tracking and global educational decline, stripping students' ability to concentrate,
[7:53] Speaker 1: interpret and reason.
[7:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that that's the bigger issue.
[7:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think though, Kylie, and this is the
[8:00] Speaker 1: critical thing that you've just pinpointed, it's not just the tech.
[8:05] Speaker 1: It's about kids' focus. It's about their purpose. It's about
[8:08] Speaker 1: their desire to be at school. It's about the curriculum
[8:10] Speaker 1: working for them. Is school even an environment that students
[8:14] Speaker 1: wish to be in? Last thing that I wanted to mention,
[8:20] Speaker 1: Chris Bradbury, who is the principal at Radford College in Canberra,
[8:23] Speaker 1: where I've done some work over the years, said that
[8:25] Speaker 1: his school has banned AI for students in the junior school.
[8:29] Speaker 1: He says the negatives are clear. The most serious issue
[8:32] Speaker 1: is students bypassing cognitive struggle. When a chatbot gives answers
[8:35] Speaker 1: too quickly, students spend less time solving a problem for themselves.
[8:41] Speaker 1: So that's our first story. We have two others to
[8:43] Speaker 1: get through. They're coming up right after the break. We're back.
[8:53] Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast, Doctor's Desk episode, and
[8:56] Speaker 1: a massive research roundup.
[8:59] Speaker 2: So our next research finding is the correlation between anxiety
[9:04] Speaker 2: and early puberty.
[9:05] Speaker 1: Yeah, so I haven't talked to you much about this,
[9:07] Speaker 1: but you told me that you didn't want me to
[9:09] Speaker 1: include it because as a parent, when you hear this,
[9:11] Speaker 1: you realize that there's pretty much nothing that you can
[9:12] Speaker 1: do about it, right? The data shows, this is the
[9:15] Speaker 1: analysis of the Danish National Birth Cohort, found that an
[9:20] Speaker 1: earlier start... and a faster tempo of puberty in girls
[9:23] Speaker 1: were associated with a higher risk of an anxiety disorder
[9:27] Speaker 1: and social anxiety disorder symptoms. On the other hand, a
[9:32] Speaker 1: later start to puberty and a slower tempo of puberty
[9:35] Speaker 1: were associated with a lower risk of social anxiety symptoms
[9:39] Speaker 1: compared with girls who developed at an average rate. The
[9:42] Speaker 1: paper was published in the Journal of Affective Disorders.
[9:47] Speaker 2: So you're exactly right. As a parent, I'm sitting here going, well,
[9:49] Speaker 2: how does this help me at all? Because I don't
[9:52] Speaker 2: have any say or control over when my child starts puberty.
[9:57] Speaker 1: You're exactly right, which makes it horrible to hear, right?
[9:59] Speaker 1: Because like, well, hang on, my daughter's starting puberty at
[10:02] Speaker 1: nine instead of 13 or 11. And what do I
[10:05] Speaker 1: do about that now?
[10:07] Speaker 2: And then I see a whole heap of parents whose
[10:09] Speaker 2: anxiety levels are going through the roof because their 11-year-old
[10:12] Speaker 2: has started puberty. They're thinking about all of the possibilities
[10:17] Speaker 2: that would accompany that early start.
[10:20] Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me just add to what you've highlighted
[10:24] Speaker 1: and highlight how unfair this is. The results in the
[10:26] Speaker 1: study showed that children with earlier pubertal development, particularly girls,
[10:32] Speaker 1: tended to have parents with lower socioeconomic status who were
[10:35] Speaker 1: less likely to live together when the children were seven
[10:37] Speaker 1: years of age. The mothers tended to have their menache,
[10:39] Speaker 1: which is their first menstrual period, at an earlier age
[10:41] Speaker 1: compared with their peers and were more likely to have
[10:43] Speaker 1: experienced a psychiatric disorder during the first trimester of pregnancy
[10:46] Speaker 1: than These children were also more often bullied at seven
[10:49] Speaker 1: years of age compared with children with average pubertal timing.
[10:53] Speaker 1: Adolescents with later puberty tended to show the opposite pattern.
[10:56] Speaker 1: So all of this pushes together and basically says, if
[11:00] Speaker 1: you're in a family that is struggling, if you've got
[11:03] Speaker 1: a mum who had some challenges, it's like this confluence
[11:08] Speaker 1: of factors that are all crushing in, and the kids
[11:10] Speaker 1: who have the fewest protective factors in their lives are
[11:13] Speaker 1: the ones who are most likely to struggle here. Exactly.
[11:16] Speaker 1: It feels unfair.
[11:18] Speaker 2: So did the research give us any hope or suggestions
[11:21] Speaker 2: on how we might, I guess, add some protective layers
[11:26] Speaker 2: to these children who are at most risk?
[11:28] Speaker 1: No, that's not the point of this kind of research.
[11:30] Speaker 1: It's literally, the study essentially looks at understanding the links
[11:34] Speaker 1: between pubertal development and mental health. The design of the study,
[11:39] Speaker 1: it's not there so that we can work out what's
[11:40] Speaker 1: protective and what's not. It's not there to find any
[11:43] Speaker 1: definitive causal inferences. It's literally saying, here's what we're finding.
[11:48] Speaker 1: We're finding this correlation, that association, this relationship. And therefore,
[11:54] Speaker 1: once you have that information, then you go out and
[11:55] Speaker 1: do studies and work out, well, how can we bring
[11:57] Speaker 1: in more protective factors? How can we help these kids
[11:59] Speaker 1: who are going through it? So my response to that
[12:02] Speaker 1: would be, if you are a parent who has a child,
[12:04] Speaker 1: particularly a daughter who is going through early puberty or
[12:07] Speaker 1: fast-paced puberty, a bit younger than her peers, She needs
[12:11] Speaker 1: protective factors in her life. Those protective factors include things
[12:14] Speaker 1: like really supportive relationships, good role models, good relationship with mothers, fathers, uncles, grandparents,
[12:21] Speaker 1: needs to be in a supportive environment. And by creating
[12:24] Speaker 1: that environment, you're going to reduce the risk that these
[12:29] Speaker 1: challenges will exist.
[12:31] Speaker 2: And what's the last article you wanted to discuss today?
[12:33] Speaker 1: The last one is a new study that asks what
[12:35] Speaker 1: happens when teens are fubbed by their parental figures.
[12:39] Speaker 2: Fubbed. Fubbed.
[12:41] Speaker 1: Fubbing, snubbing someone in favor of your phone. It's what
[12:44] Speaker 1: happens when we walk into the room and we've got
[12:46] Speaker 1: three kids sitting on the couch all staring at their
[12:48] Speaker 1: phones and they don't even look up. Fubbing.
[12:52] Speaker 2: Why do we have to define everything with a name?
[12:55] Speaker 1: It's a fabulous portmanteau of snubbing and phone use. I
[13:00] Speaker 1: think it's exactly right.
[13:02] Speaker 2: Seriously.
[13:02] Speaker 1: Would you like to know what happened?
[13:04] Speaker 2: No, but carry on.
[13:06] Speaker 1: You're so funny. Well, to find out whether phone use
[13:09] Speaker 1: is linked to the way that adolescents relate to their
[13:11] Speaker 1: parents or guardians, the team surveyed 600 young people aged
[13:16] Speaker 1: from 12 to 17, asked them about their relationship with
[13:19] Speaker 1: a primary caregiver. They reported how often they experienced situations
[13:23] Speaker 1: like being ignored while a caregiver was on their phone,
[13:25] Speaker 1: feeling that device use got in the way of spending
[13:28] Speaker 1: time together, or feeling unimportant when a caregiver wouldn't put
[13:31] Speaker 1: their device away. They also, and this is important, completed
[13:35] Speaker 1: a well-established measure of attachment, which allows researchers to assess
[13:41] Speaker 1: whether young people who reported more phone-related interruptions were also
[13:44] Speaker 1: more likely to report anxious attachment, which is when you
[13:47] Speaker 1: worry about being rejected or abandoned, or avoidant attachment, which
[13:51] Speaker 1: is where you keep emotional distance from a caregiver because
[13:55] Speaker 1: you fear that you may be rejected or abandoned. That
[13:59] Speaker 1: kind of thing. So you've got a void and an
[14:01] Speaker 1: anxious attachment in addition to a secure attachment. Have a
[14:05] Speaker 1: guess what the results were, Kylie.
[14:08] Speaker 2: We don't have time for my guessing. Just tell us it.
[14:10] Speaker 1: Right. Oh, the apathy.
[14:13] Speaker 2: Oh, the motivation.
[14:15] Speaker 1: The results were clear. Teenagers who felt that the caregiver's
[14:17] Speaker 1: phone got in the way of their relationship were also
[14:20] Speaker 1: significantly more likely to report insecure attachment to that caregiver.
[14:24] Speaker 1: It didn't matter whether that took the form of worrying
[14:26] Speaker 1: about rejection or or keeping emotional distance, the same pattern
[14:29] Speaker 1: emerged whether the primary caregiver was a mother or father figure,
[14:33] Speaker 1: and it included biological adoptive step and grandparent figures, suggesting
[14:36] Speaker 1: that the findings weren't unique to one kind of family
[14:39] Speaker 1: or parental figure. In other words, in other words, if
[14:43] Speaker 1: you are staring at your phone and your kids want
[14:45] Speaker 1: your attention, Ultimately, that may have some relationship to the
[14:49] Speaker 1: way that they attach to you. And of course, attachment
[14:52] Speaker 1: patterns often persist in adulthood, which means that this might
[14:55] Speaker 1: also influence how your children experience close relationships later in life.
[14:59] Speaker 1: We're ruining our children when we're looking at our phones.
[15:01] Speaker 1: That's the upshot.
[15:02] Speaker 2: Did they do the upshot on the other side of
[15:05] Speaker 2: the coin? How our children are fubbing us and how
[15:08] Speaker 2: that impacts their relationship?
[15:10] Speaker 1: We seem to get over it way better as adults.
[15:13] Speaker 1: We don't like it. It annoys us.
[15:14] Speaker 2: No, I'm not suggesting... the impact it has on us,
[15:17] Speaker 2: the impact it has on their relationship.
[15:20] Speaker 1: Well, yes, that's what the whole study is, like their
[15:22] Speaker 1: relationship with us.
[15:24] Speaker 2: No, but it's focused on us fubbing them as opposed
[15:28] Speaker 2: to them fubbing us. There's a difference between a parent
[15:31] Speaker 2: making a bid for connection or a child making a
[15:34] Speaker 2: bid for connection.
[15:35] Speaker 1: I've just understood your question. And no, they didn't research that,
[15:38] Speaker 1: but I think that we could safely hypothesize. that it's
[15:42] Speaker 1: not good for anybody when we're on our phones.
[15:44] Speaker 2: No, but my point is when you have research like this,
[15:47] Speaker 2: it's very easy for kids to blame the other person
[15:51] Speaker 2: instead of taking accountability for their actions. That's my only
[15:55] Speaker 2: take on that.
[15:56] Speaker 1: That's the end of the Doctor's Desk episode for today.
[15:58] Speaker 1: Thanks for pushing through it, Kylie. You've done very well.
[16:01] Speaker 2: It's been a long day. The whole 20 minutes of it.
[16:07] Speaker 2: How long did it go for?
[16:08] Speaker 1: Oh, well, there's some editing that JR has to do. JR,
[16:10] Speaker 1: can you pull this back to like 15? Thank you
[16:13] Speaker 1: for pushing yourself through it, Kylie. I hope that it's been.
[16:17] Speaker 1: I hope that it was better for everyone else than
[16:18] Speaker 1: it was for you.
[16:20] Speaker 2: So do I.
[16:20] Speaker 1: You're so harsh. I love these podcasts. I just think
[16:25] Speaker 1: this stuff matters so much. We'll have some more research
[16:28] Speaker 1: to round up next week or the week after or
[16:30] Speaker 1: something like that. Tomorrow on the Happy Families podcast, I
[16:35] Speaker 1: won an award. I won an award. And we're going
[16:37] Speaker 1: to talk about what that award is and why it's important.
[16:40] Speaker 2: Plus.
[16:41] Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, one of our daughters has left home.
[16:45] Speaker 1: That and more on the Happy Families podcast tomorrow. Talk
[16:48] Speaker 1: to you then.

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