# Rethinking Success After High School

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 21 Oct 2026, 16 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/19d25e6c-0166-4b34-b5a1-b4e20189e630/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

Worried your teenager is falling behind or has no idea what they want to do after school? You’re not alone, and their future is bigger than their grades. Dr Justin Coulson chats with educator and careers expert Dr Jo Winchester about career pressure, gap years, alternative pathways and the changing world of work. They explore how to support neurodivergent kids, take the pressure off big decisions and help young people find a path that fits who they are. KEY POINTS • Why your child’s ATAR doesn’t define their potential • When a gap year might be the right choice • How to explore careers in a rapidly changing world • Supporting neurodivergent kids without focusing on grades • Helping teenagers make decisions without passing on your anxiety QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “The thing that I want you to concentrate on more is, is your child happy? Are they being supported in a loving environment at that school?” RESOURCES MENTIONED • Dr Jo Winchester for career guidance and free resources • Range by David Epstein • Dark Horse by Todd Rose ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS • Take the pressure off choosing a lifelong career right now. • Explore university open days by focusing on the environment and teaching staff, not rankings. • Help your teenager identify their interests, strengths and skills. • Set small, achievable goals if school is a struggle. • Remind your child that their grades are not a measure of their intelligence or future success. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. As we move
[0:07] Speaker 1: towards the end of the year, some big decisions need
[0:10] Speaker 1: to be made for parents. They're really kids' decisions. What
[0:13] Speaker 1: am I going to do with the rest of my life,
[0:14] Speaker 1: especially if school's finishing? Or maybe it's time for subject selection.
[0:18] Speaker 1: All of the decisions feel so heavy. There's so much
[0:23] Speaker 1: stress around For us as parents, seeing our children do
[0:26] Speaker 1: well at school, because we really truly believe that doing
[0:28] Speaker 1: well at school is the one success metric that's going
[0:30] Speaker 1: to determine how our children go for the rest of
[0:32] Speaker 1: their lives, inappropriately, unfairly, but that's kind of how it feels.
[0:37] Speaker 1: Today on the podcast, we talk with educator, careers expert,
[0:40] Speaker 1: and single mum of three, Dr. Jo Winchester, on how
[0:43] Speaker 1: parents can support their children's futures without passing on all
[0:48] Speaker 1: of their anxieties. We're going to talk about gap years.
[0:51] Speaker 1: We're going to talk about AI and the future of jobs.
[0:53] Speaker 1: We're going to talk about what to do when you've
[0:55] Speaker 1: got a child who just doesn't know what they want
[0:57] Speaker 1: to do at all. And we're also going to talk
[0:59] Speaker 1: about those families who are raising neurodivergent kids, where it
[1:02] Speaker 1: just feels like even getting a job or finishing school
[1:06] Speaker 1: might be a bridge too far. Stay with us. All
[1:09] Speaker 1: of that and more is next. Hello, welcome to the
[1:14] Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast, where you get real parenting solutions every
[1:16] Speaker 1: single day. My name is Dr. Justin Coulson. Dad to
[1:19] Speaker 1: six kids, four of whom have finished high school now
[1:21] Speaker 1: and are making their way in the world, hopefully reasonably successfully.
[1:26] Speaker 1: It feels like they're doing fine. And a former high
[1:28] Speaker 1: school dropout. Well, I finished high school, but I scored
[1:30] Speaker 1: on the bottom 15% of the state. Didn't do very well.
[1:33] Speaker 1: This is a conversation that's really close to my heart,
[1:35] Speaker 1: and I'm so delighted to be joined by Dr. Joe Winchester.
[1:39] Speaker 1: New research commissioned by Dr. Joe found that one in
[1:42] Speaker 1: three parents believe guiding their child towards the right career
[1:46] Speaker 1: is one of the hardest challenges of modern parenting. We've
[1:48] Speaker 1: got AI changing the workforce. University no longer guarantees security.
[1:52] Speaker 1: In fact, there are big questions being asked everywhere about university.
[1:55] Speaker 1: I kind of feel like a bad person saying that
[1:56] Speaker 1: because university has been such a gift in my life,
[1:58] Speaker 1: but university isn't what it used to be. It really isn't.
[2:01] Speaker 1: Sorry to everyone who's working at a uni right now
[2:03] Speaker 1: and hearing me say that. And there's just this stress,
[2:06] Speaker 1: the financial stress. How are our kids ever going to
[2:08] Speaker 1: be able to make their way and buy a house? Okay,
[2:11] Speaker 1: that's a long intro. So let me move to Dr.
[2:13] Speaker 1: Joe Winchester.
[2:13] Speaker 2: Dr.
[2:14] Speaker 1: Joe spent the last 25 years or more Working with
[2:16] Speaker 1: young people, parents and educators like me kind of messed
[2:20] Speaker 1: high school up, received an ATAR of 50 before taking
[2:24] Speaker 1: an alternative pathway to university and ultimately completing a doctorate.
[2:27] Speaker 2: Dr.
[2:28] Speaker 1: Joe is also neurodivergent and I think has a really
[2:31] Speaker 1: deeply personal understanding of why conventional measures are not always
[2:34] Speaker 1: reflecting a young person's potential. Jo, sorry about the long intro, but.
[2:40] Speaker 2: No problem, Dr. Justin. It's great to be here to
[2:44] Speaker 2: talk about this topic. And yes, I can see there's
[2:46] Speaker 2: a lot of in-sync things we have around this topic.
[2:49] Speaker 1: I care about it so much. And the narrative that's
[2:51] Speaker 1: out there feels to me like it's not helping parents
[2:54] Speaker 1: or children. What's your take on the standard narrative that
[2:57] Speaker 1: kids need to do well at school so that they
[2:59] Speaker 1: can get into university, so they can get a high-paying job,
[3:01] Speaker 1: so they can have a successful life?
[3:03] Speaker 2: Well, I don't know whether that narrative ever really existed
[3:06] Speaker 2: for everyone, but it's certainly been shaken up lately with
[3:09] Speaker 2: the advent of AI, with the changes in universities. And also,
[3:14] Speaker 2: I think changes in parenting have meant that schools have changed.
[3:18] Speaker 2: And so we now are in this situation where parents
[3:22] Speaker 2: and young people, they recognize that the world of work
[3:24] Speaker 2: has changed. But they're not really getting the practical solutions
[3:28] Speaker 2: from industry or from education providers so that they can
[3:32] Speaker 2: make informed decisions.
[3:34] Speaker 1: Tell me about your background. You're neurodivergent. You kind of
[3:37] Speaker 1: bombed high school, which I did as well. And now
[3:41] Speaker 1: the two of us and so many people that we
[3:43] Speaker 1: know who have had similar pathways, running around with PhDs
[3:46] Speaker 1: or with written books, really making a decent go of it.
[3:52] Speaker 1: How did you end up where you are? What's the
[3:54] Speaker 1: short version of the Dr. Jo Winchester, I'm a failure
[3:57] Speaker 1: at school story?
[3:58] Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's so interesting because I didn't necessarily feel
[4:01] Speaker 2: like a failure while I was in school. I actually
[4:03] Speaker 2: really loved school and I was undiagnosed ADHD at that time,
[4:06] Speaker 2: like most of us women in the 90s were. But
[4:10] Speaker 2: I loved school and I engaged... really a lot with
[4:13] Speaker 2: it and was in a lot of extracurricular activities. But
[4:15] Speaker 2: when it came to exams, I just didn't do well.
[4:18] Speaker 2: And now I understand that that's because it's not that
[4:20] Speaker 2: I didn't know the content or have a really intelligent
[4:24] Speaker 2: analysis of English texts, etc. I just couldn't write that
[4:27] Speaker 2: down in 50 minutes. so that I would achieve a
[4:31] Speaker 2: good ATAR so yeah when my ATAR came at 50
[4:34] Speaker 2: it was actually this really pivotal moment for me because
[4:37] Speaker 2: I knew that number didn't reflect my intelligence or my
[4:41] Speaker 2: own knowledge but I it meant that because at the
[4:44] Speaker 2: time ATAR was a bit more fixed in terms of
[4:47] Speaker 2: your entry into university it meant that the course that
[4:50] Speaker 2: I wanted to get into I didn't and so ended
[4:52] Speaker 2: up um in Newcastle University at the very new Arimba
[4:56] Speaker 2: campus and not necessarily very happy about it at the beginning. Right, right.
[5:02] Speaker 1: I'm sure that so many parents are hearing this story
[5:03] Speaker 1: and going, this is either me or this is my kids.
[5:05] Speaker 1: I'm looking at them and I know they've got so
[5:07] Speaker 1: much more capacity, so much more potential and they're not
[5:10] Speaker 1: living up to it. And yet you get into that
[5:13] Speaker 1: course or you go and get that qualification or that
[5:16] Speaker 1: certification and all of a sudden all the stuff that's
[5:17] Speaker 1: going on at school seems like it's in the distant
[5:20] Speaker 1: past and I don't want to downplay it, but I
[5:23] Speaker 1: want to say we got worried about nothing. How would
[5:25] Speaker 1: you say it better than that? Because that feels like
[5:27] Speaker 1: it's a little bit long-footed.
[5:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think the world of education and university
[5:32] Speaker 2: has changed, and I don't think the knowledge of teachers
[5:34] Speaker 2: and parents has actually caught up with it. So, yes,
[5:37] Speaker 2: back in the 1990s, it did kind of matter what
[5:40] Speaker 2: ATAR you got in terms of what course you got
[5:43] Speaker 2: into but then again I ended up in in air
[5:45] Speaker 2: quotes a bachelor just a bachelor of arts but actually
[5:48] Speaker 2: it was the making of me because it meant that
[5:50] Speaker 2: I could concentrate on drama which I loved I was
[5:52] Speaker 2: getting high distinctions and distinctions I engaged myself in in
[5:57] Speaker 2: university work and and found this love of working with
[6:00] Speaker 2: young people and community that has just seen me through
[6:02] Speaker 2: the rest of my career so while yes it was
[6:05] Speaker 2: a failure it actually I think put me on that
[6:08] Speaker 2: right path And so that's where I want my message
[6:11] Speaker 2: to go to parents and to young people is that
[6:14] Speaker 2: ATAR is certainly one measure. And I think, yes, sure,
[6:18] Speaker 2: work hard and do your best. But if you aren't
[6:20] Speaker 2: going to get the ATAR for the right course that
[6:22] Speaker 2: you want now, there are so many alternative pathways into
[6:26] Speaker 2: university or into the world of work that it doesn't
[6:31] Speaker 2: have the weight that I think it's being given to
[6:34] Speaker 2: at the moment in society. Okay.
[6:37] Speaker 1: Jo, when I hear you say that, I think about
[6:38] Speaker 1: all four of my daughters who have finished high school.
[6:41] Speaker 1: Three of them are now at university. The fourth one's
[6:43] Speaker 1: taking an extended gap year. But all of them got
[6:47] Speaker 1: into university via alternative pathways, which is what I encourage
[6:52] Speaker 1: them to do. I want to hit you up with
[6:54] Speaker 1: a quick lightning round. There's so much that we need
[6:55] Speaker 1: to talk about, but I just want to get some yes,
[6:58] Speaker 1: no answers just so the parents can kind of go, oh, yeah, okay.
[7:01] Speaker 1: So first off, gap years, yes or no?
[7:04] Speaker 2: Yes, if it's right for your child, for sure. Yes.
[7:08] Speaker 1: As a former university lecturer, I felt like a gap
[7:10] Speaker 1: year was right for about 80% of kids. I feel
[7:12] Speaker 1: like maybe 10% to 20% of kids were ready for
[7:14] Speaker 1: uni straight after high school.
[7:16] Speaker 2: So true. Yes, agree. Agree.
[7:18] Speaker 1: ATAR 50 or ATAR 99? Who's better set up for
[7:23] Speaker 1: the workforce in 2035? Can I.
[7:26] Speaker 2: Say either or both or depends or like it's such
[7:30] Speaker 2: a number that is about a point in time. And
[7:34] Speaker 2: after that point of time is over, that number no
[7:36] Speaker 2: longer matters. Brilliant.
[7:38] Speaker 1: University open days, overrated or underrated?
[7:42] Speaker 2: I think underrated, but I think that young, I know
[7:45] Speaker 2: this is supposed to be lightning, and parents are looking
[7:50] Speaker 2: for the wrong thing. So my advice is when you
[7:52] Speaker 2: go to a university, don't just look at the status
[7:54] Speaker 2: and the ranking. I want you to go to a
[7:56] Speaker 2: university and think about, am I the kind of student
[7:58] Speaker 2: that loves a small group? So maybe a smaller university
[8:02] Speaker 2: is better for you. Or are you someone that needs
[8:04] Speaker 2: a lot of people and a lot of excitement and
[8:06] Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going on, then maybe go to
[8:07] Speaker 2: a bigger university. So I think university open days are amazing,
[8:11] Speaker 2: but don't look at the rankings. Go and meet the
[8:14] Speaker 2: actual lecturers. Talk to them. If you're getting a good vibe,
[8:17] Speaker 2: go there. A degree is a degree. At the end
[8:19] Speaker 2: of the day, the name of the university does not
[8:22] Speaker 2: matter as much as what universities think it does.
[8:25] Speaker 1: I love that you said that. So I did my
[8:26] Speaker 1: undergrad at UQ. Prestigious, sandstone university, group of eight, all
[8:30] Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. And Oh, my goodness. As a
[8:32] Speaker 1: UQ graduate, I really love rubbing it into the Griffith
[8:35] Speaker 1: University students. I did my PhD at the University of Wollongong.
[8:41] Speaker 1: It doesn't have the same prestige associated with it, but
[8:45] Speaker 1: what an incredible experience. One of the richest and most
[8:47] Speaker 1: wonderful experiences of my life. I'm so glad that you
[8:49] Speaker 1: said that the way you did. I have one more
[8:51] Speaker 1: lightning round question before we get into some really nitty
[8:53] Speaker 1: gritty stuff. Your teenager announces that they're going to become
[8:56] Speaker 1: a full-time YouTuber. First word out of your mouth as
[8:59] Speaker 1: a parent.
[9:00] Speaker 2: Excellent, you're going to buy me that house that I
[9:02] Speaker 2: need to buy in this market. If that's your passion,
[9:06] Speaker 2: go for it, my mate. And my son has said
[9:09] Speaker 2: that to me. And I said, great, how are we
[9:11] Speaker 2: going to go about it?
[9:12] Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you've got to have a plan.
[9:14] Speaker 2: Got to have a plan. Like what's the go? How
[9:16] Speaker 2: do we get advertising? Like what's your topic going to
[9:18] Speaker 2: be about? Like why? Like I don't think there's anything necessarily,
[9:22] Speaker 2: you know, air quotes wrong with being a YouTuber, but
[9:25] Speaker 2: it's not easy. Like it's not an easy job. And so, yeah,
[9:29] Speaker 2: going into a job like that or a career like that,
[9:32] Speaker 2: you have to have a real plan and you have
[9:33] Speaker 2: to have a real kind of push and focus as
[9:37] Speaker 2: to what you're actually putting out in that world. So
[9:39] Speaker 2: it's more to it than just, yeah, filming yourself gaming.
[9:42] Speaker 2: It's a lot more than that. Okay.
[9:43] Speaker 1: So the summary so far is that you are not
[9:46] Speaker 1: your ATAR. Big decisions need to be made. You don't
[9:49] Speaker 1: have to rush and there are alternative pathways. After the break,
[9:52] Speaker 1: a slightly more serious conversation. What do you do to
[9:55] Speaker 1: support neurodivergent children whose strengths may not be reflected at school?
[10:01] Speaker 1: And how can we as parents encourage our kids to
[10:05] Speaker 1: work hard and really strive to do well when they're
[10:09] Speaker 1: kind of looking at school and going, what's the point?
[10:12] Speaker 1: I just don't see any purpose here. All that right
[10:15] Speaker 1: after this. We're back. It's the Happy Families podcast. Jo,
[10:25] Speaker 1: let's talk about supporting neurodivergent kids at school. Quite often
[10:29] Speaker 1: the school context doesn't feel like it supports our children's strengths.
[10:35] Speaker 1: They're not necessarily reflected in the school environment. What advice
[10:39] Speaker 1: would you have for parents and for their children who
[10:41] Speaker 1: are struggling because of neurodivergent challenges or maybe some other
[10:46] Speaker 1: psychological issues?
[10:48] Speaker 2: As you would know, Dr. Justin, a lot of neurodivergent
[10:50] Speaker 2: kids have more than likely got neurodivergent parents. And this
[10:54] Speaker 2: is where I think the major difficulty is. So as
[10:57] Speaker 2: a neurodivergent person myself who has neurodivergent children, this is
[11:00] Speaker 2: my biggest struggle because I have to deal with my
[11:03] Speaker 2: own ADHD while I'm trying to support my own kids'
[11:07] Speaker 2: engagement with school. And two of my sons have different
[11:09] Speaker 2: variations of neurodivergency. And so And they both have different needs.
[11:13] Speaker 2: So wanting one child to feel comfortable and the other
[11:16] Speaker 2: child to be able to set up study while I'm
[11:19] Speaker 2: also dealing with my own memory loss, like it's just
[11:22] Speaker 2: so difficult. So big hug to all you neurodivergent parents
[11:26] Speaker 2: who have neurodivergent kids. And what I want to say
[11:29] Speaker 2: to you is that the thing that I want you
[11:31] Speaker 2: to concentrate on more on is like, is your child happy?
[11:34] Speaker 2: Are they being supported in a loving environment in that school?
[11:38] Speaker 2: And don't worry too much about their grades at this stage.
[11:42] Speaker 2: What you want to foster in your child is a
[11:45] Speaker 2: love of learning that they can speak to you when
[11:48] Speaker 2: things are struggling and tell them that they're not their
[11:51] Speaker 2: marks because more than likely, particularly if it's an ADHD child,
[11:54] Speaker 2: they're not really getting the marks that actually reflect their knowledge.
[11:57] Speaker 2: And the world will come to embrace their neurodivergency one
[12:01] Speaker 2: day and it just might take them longer. So I
[12:04] Speaker 2: think take the pressure off your kids in terms of
[12:08] Speaker 2: having the outcomes and and more focus on getting them
[12:11] Speaker 2: to school on time, studying maybe 15 minutes a day,
[12:16] Speaker 2: small goals for those neurodivergent children to help set them
[12:20] Speaker 2: up for the world of work. But you know that
[12:24] Speaker 2: their marks aren't reflecting their intelligence. Like I know with
[12:27] Speaker 2: my son, he will tell me everything about soccer statistics
[12:31] Speaker 2: or space or And his marks aren't reflected in who
[12:36] Speaker 2: he is and his abilities. And it's just like, it's okay.
[12:40] Speaker 2: I mean, it's not okay, but in terms of I
[12:42] Speaker 2: wish our education systems were different, but they aren't at
[12:45] Speaker 2: the moment. So it's, you know, be kind to yourself
[12:48] Speaker 2: and to your child.
[12:49] Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a top task. Jo, why is asking teenagers
[12:52] Speaker 1: to choose their career increasingly unrealistic?
[12:57] Speaker 2: The world of work is changing so rapidly and it's
[13:00] Speaker 2: always changed, but now new jobs are being created all
[13:02] Speaker 2: the time. And what you really need to understand is
[13:05] Speaker 2: that what your child's exposed to at school and with
[13:08] Speaker 2: your own networks as a parent is actually quite limited.
[13:12] Speaker 2: There are more jobs out there than what you have
[13:14] Speaker 2: a knowledge of, let alone your own child. So, I
[13:17] Speaker 2: suggest really focusing on the skills that they have, their
[13:20] Speaker 2: personal interests, their personal passions, and building that up. And
[13:25] Speaker 2: then they will find a career that suits that. So,
[13:29] Speaker 2: Partner pigeonholing your child too early can mean that they'll
[13:32] Speaker 2: have a narrow focus on what they're actually able to achieve.
[13:35] Speaker 2: Being a bit more open-minded, being willing to explore different
[13:39] Speaker 2: kinds of careers, even generic degrees might suit your child
[13:43] Speaker 2: better and have them find a more fulfilling career pathway
[13:47] Speaker 2: than putting a label on them too early. And allowing
[13:52] Speaker 2: your child to make mistakes and go on different paths
[13:55] Speaker 2: as well is something that you have to accept because
[13:59] Speaker 2: their first choice might, they might, oh gosh, I really
[14:01] Speaker 2: hate this and then go somewhere else. That's okay. And
[14:04] Speaker 2: that's normal. And we should be encouraging that.
[14:07] Speaker 1: Two of my favorite books on that topic. One, Range
[14:10] Speaker 1: by David Epstein and two, Dark Horse by Todd Rose.
[14:14] Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're familiar with either of those.
[14:16] Speaker 2: No, I'll have to put them both on my list.
[14:18] Speaker 1: Amazing books. Range basically says, get experience, get breadth before
[14:23] Speaker 1: you go for depth. Because experience rounds you out and
[14:27] Speaker 1: gives you a whole lot of general knowledge and you
[14:29] Speaker 1: kind of find out a lot about yourself. You discover
[14:31] Speaker 1: your identity as you're getting range. Dark horse basically is
[14:35] Speaker 1: you discover things about yourself and you don't have to
[14:38] Speaker 1: take the path most traveled. You can take the path
[14:41] Speaker 1: less traveled because that's what suits you. Todd Rose is
[14:45] Speaker 1: a graduate school of education at Harvard, academic who's started
[14:48] Speaker 1: his own think tank and he's amazing. I find it
[14:50] Speaker 1: really interesting, Dr. Joe. I'll be running a parent seminar
[14:54] Speaker 1: and I'll ask the parents in the room to put
[14:56] Speaker 1: up their hand if they're doing today what they thought
[14:58] Speaker 1: they'd be doing when they finished high school for work.
[15:00] Speaker 1: It's usually about one in 10.
[15:03] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[15:03] Speaker 1: So the pressure that we put on our kids to
[15:05] Speaker 1: figure out where they're going to go and what they're
[15:06] Speaker 1: going to do just feels unhelpful and unfair.
[15:09] Speaker 2: Yes.
[15:10] Speaker 1: Feel like we could talk for a long time and
[15:13] Speaker 1: have an absolute riot, but that's probably a good place
[15:15] Speaker 1: to wrap it up. If people are struggling with some
[15:18] Speaker 1: challenges with their kids, looking for some career advice, this
[15:21] Speaker 1: is the work that you do professionally. How can people
[15:24] Speaker 1: get in touch and what is it that you could offer?
[15:27] Speaker 2: You can go to my website, drjoewinchester.com.au. I actually have
[15:30] Speaker 2: a whole lot of free resources on that website for
[15:32] Speaker 2: parents and young people to use. Yeah, even just things like,
[15:35] Speaker 2: you know, how to make the most out of open day,
[15:37] Speaker 2: how to find your own career path, very, you know,
[15:39] Speaker 2: simple activities that you can do with your child. My
[15:42] Speaker 2: email address is on there too, info at drjoewinchester.com.au. More
[15:45] Speaker 2: than happy to hear from you. Reach out, you know,
[15:48] Speaker 2: get in contact. This is my passion. I really want
[15:50] Speaker 2: to make a difference in young people and finding their purpose.
[15:53] Speaker 2: um yeah so yeah those are the two best places
[15:56] Speaker 2: you can find.
[15:57] Speaker 1: Been a delight to talk to you thanks so much
[15:58] Speaker 1: for chatting on the happy families podcast it's great thank
[16:01] Speaker 1: you the happy families podcast is produced by justin roland
[16:04] Speaker 1: from bridge media mim hammonds provides admin and other support
[16:07] Speaker 1: we'll link to dr joe winchester's website and details in
[16:11] Speaker 1: the show notes check it out if you're looking for
[16:13] Speaker 1: some careers advice support or help for your kids

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