# Do You Know That's Wrong?

An episode of [Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1082244480), 16 Sep 2026, 15 min.

Audio: https://mgln.ai/e/187/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/fa326977-3de5-4283-9b8b-af3500c58607/b69b2795-5503-4de1-ac91-af460017906e/0bbfed99-5ff5-42a3-abec-b4bf0028b8ab/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a05f1702-0c0e-4b0f-8014-af460017907c

Location tracking. Checking a partner’s phone. Constantly asking where they are and who they’re with. For some teenagers, controlling behaviour is becoming so normal they may not even recognise it as a red flag. Justin and Kylie share three simple questions sparked by Victorian Attorney-General Sonya Kilkenny’s conversation with her teenage son: Do you know that’s wrong? Do you know that’s a red flag? What do the girls think? They unpack consent, coercive control, rejection and the messages boys are absorbing about what it means to be a man. Most importantly, they explain why these conversations need to start long before our kids begin dating. KEY POINTS • Why jealousy, phone checking and location tracking can be mistaken for love or devotion • Three questions that help teenagers recognise controlling behaviour • Why conversations about consent should start when children are young • Teaching kids to trust the feeling that says, “I don’t like this” • Helping boys understand that rejection should be met with grace • How online culture and unhealthy models of masculinity can shape boys’ ideas about relationships • Why healthy relationships should leave people feeling safer and stronger • Keeping conversations open so kids come to you when something doesn’t feel right QUOTE OF THE EPISODE “Healthy males help the people around them feel safer and stronger.” RESOURCES MENTIONED • Boys: Building Strong Men From the Inside Out by Dr Justin Coulson • Victorian Attorney-General Sonya Kilkenny’s comments about coercive control • Happy Families school parent presentations ACTION STEPS FOR PARENTS Ask the three questions: When relationship behaviour comes up, ask, “Do you know that’s wrong?”, “Do you know that’s a red flag?” and “What does the other person think?” Start consent conversations early: Teach younger children that they can say no to unwanted affection, scary play or anything that makes them uncomfortable. Talk about what healthy masculinity looks like: Ask your child when they saw a boy or man help someone feel safer and stronger today. Talk about the opposite: Ask when they saw someone leave another person feeling smaller or weaker, then discuss what made the behaviour different. Keep talking: Make relationships, consent, pornography, online influences and red flags normal topics of conversation rather than one big awkward talk See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

## Transcript

[0:05] Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast. Recently, about a
[0:09] Speaker 1: month ago, just over that, Victoria's Attorney General, a woman
[0:13] Speaker 1: by the name of Sonia Kilkenny, was in Victoria's Parliament
[0:16] Speaker 1: House launching a campaign about coercive control because, unfortunately, these
[0:21] Speaker 1: issues still come up. And she put her notes down
[0:24] Speaker 1: midway through her speech and spoke quite personally about something
[0:28] Speaker 1: that wasn't in the notes, about.
[0:30] Speaker 2: Her own family.
[0:31] Speaker 1: Kilkenny's 16-year-old son had come home and told her what some.
[0:35] Speaker 2: Of his mates were doing to their girlfriends.
[0:38] Speaker 1: I'm talking about things like location tracking, checking their phones
[0:41] Speaker 1: to see who they were speaking to, and constantly checking in.
[0:44] Speaker 2: Where are you?
[0:45] Speaker 1: Who are you with?
[0:45] Speaker 2: What are you doing?
[0:47] Speaker 1: She asked her son three questions because they tie in
[0:50] Speaker 1: with this issue of coercive control. I think they're really
[0:54] Speaker 1: worth interrogating and spending some time on. going to tell
[0:58] Speaker 1: you about that next so that you can have better
[1:00] Speaker 1: conversations with your kids about this very tricky topic. Stay
[1:04] Speaker 1: with us. Hello, welcome to the Happy Families podcast, where
[1:09] Speaker 1: you get real parenting solutions every single day. We're Justin
[1:11] Speaker 1: and Kylie Coulson, the parents of six daughters. And today,
[1:16] Speaker 1: a conversation about talking to kids on tough topics like
[1:21] Speaker 1: coercive control.
[1:23] Speaker 2: This blows my mind.
[1:24] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[1:25] Speaker 2: A little bit. When I hear conversations like this, I
[1:28] Speaker 2: just feel grateful that I live in a bubble, I think,
[1:33] Speaker 2: but devastated that so many girls specifically are dealing with this.
[1:39] Speaker 1: At like 12 and 13 and 15 and 16.
[1:41] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[1:42] Speaker 1: It's so funny though, because when I look at that,
[1:44] Speaker 1: checking in to see what they're up to, who they're
[1:45] Speaker 1: talking to, what they're doing, where they are, I also
[1:49] Speaker 1: feel a little bit guilty because I check in on you.
[1:51] Speaker 2: A lot, but Yeah, but not in a coercive way.
[1:55] Speaker 1: No, but not in the ick way. It's just like, hey,
[1:56] Speaker 1: what are you doing today? Or where are you off to?
[1:58] Speaker 1: Who were you talking to all that time?
[2:00] Speaker 2: That was a really- Like we share our location because
[2:02] Speaker 2: you're not here a lot.
[2:03] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[2:03] Speaker 2: It's so nice to look on the map and just go, okay,
[2:05] Speaker 2: that's where you are.
[2:06] Speaker 1: Oh, Justin's in Perth today. Yeah.
[2:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[2:08] Speaker 1: So I just want to emphasize all of the things
[2:11] Speaker 1: that we're talking about can be done in a spirit
[2:13] Speaker 1: of mutuality and can be done consensually and can be
[2:16] Speaker 1: done in a loving way. But unfortunately, too much of
[2:19] Speaker 1: this is not happening in a positive environment, not happening
[2:22] Speaker 1: in a positive relationship. So here's the deal. Sonia Kilkenny
[2:26] Speaker 1: is chatting with her son. He's 16. And he talks
[2:29] Speaker 1: about how the kids are location tracking and checking the
[2:32] Speaker 1: girlfriend's phone to see who they're talking to. And she
[2:34] Speaker 1: asks him three questions. She talks about this in the
[2:37] Speaker 1: press conference.
[2:39] Speaker 2: What are the three questions? Really simple.
[2:42] Speaker 1: Do you know that's wrong? Do you know that's a
[2:45] Speaker 1: red flag? What do the girls think?
[2:49] Speaker 2: Just that.
[2:50] Speaker 1: And it's so interesting because of all the commentary that
[2:52] Speaker 1: I've read over the last two months or thereabouts with
[2:54] Speaker 1: all these awful stories that have been in the news
[2:56] Speaker 1: again and again and again about the appallingly bad behavior
[3:00] Speaker 1: of too many of our young men. I think these
[3:02] Speaker 1: three questions might be the most useful thing in anything
[3:06] Speaker 1: that I've read. Like our news feeds are literally full
[3:09] Speaker 1: of hideous stories where girls being hurt or died because
[3:13] Speaker 1: boys and men can't answer those three questions. Do you
[3:17] Speaker 1: know that's wrong? I don't even want to talk about
[3:19] Speaker 1: this on the podcast. So only one quick mention, this
[3:23] Speaker 1: choking story. Do you know that's wrong? Do you know
[3:26] Speaker 1: that's a red flag? What does the girl think about this?
[3:29] Speaker 2: Just those three questions.
[3:31] Speaker 1: I just can't imagine that anyone's lining up and saying, oh,
[3:33] Speaker 1: put your hands around my throat.
[3:34] Speaker 2: So simple.
[3:35] Speaker 1: And yet I wonder how many parents are asking those
[3:39] Speaker 1: questions of their kids, having those conversations with them.
[3:42] Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we're having those conversations
[3:44] Speaker 2: with our girls though, just as much.
[3:46] Speaker 1: Oh, totally.
[3:47] Speaker 2: Because- So much of what is happening is just accepted
[3:51] Speaker 2: because it's actually not a minority. This is actually the norm.
[3:56] Speaker 1: So I said this in a presentation recently, and somebody
[4:00] Speaker 1: approached me afterwards and was furious that I said it.
[4:02] Speaker 1: They argued that I was asking girls to police boys' behavior,
[4:06] Speaker 1: that it's up to boys to do it. And that
[4:08] Speaker 1: person's right. It is up to boys to do it.
[4:10] Speaker 1: But hello. Hello.
[4:11] Speaker 2: Each of us have an individual responsibility to keep ourselves safe.
[4:16] Speaker 1: We don't live in a perfect world where every boy
[4:18] Speaker 1: is going to do the right thing. So I want
[4:19] Speaker 1: to teach my daughters how they can listen to that
[4:22] Speaker 1: little voice inside and then use their big voice and
[4:25] Speaker 1: make a noise if something is not right, if something
[4:27] Speaker 1: is a red flag, if she doesn't agree with it.
[4:29] Speaker 1: I just think the world is so far from perfect
[4:33] Speaker 1: and therefore we need to help our daughters to have
[4:35] Speaker 1: these conversations. The primary responsibility is with the male. if
[4:39] Speaker 1: that's what he's doing and he thinks that's okay. But
[4:41] Speaker 1: girls need to be able to call it out as well.
[4:43] Speaker 1: And we've had great conversations with our kids where they
[4:45] Speaker 1: have called stuff out and you're like, yeah, well done.
[4:48] Speaker 1: You needed to do that. That was the right thing
[4:49] Speaker 1: to do.
[4:50] Speaker 2: I think that this is a conversation though that starts
[4:52] Speaker 2: like from a really, really early age. It's not once
[4:55] Speaker 2: they're in it. Helping our kids to actually listen to
[5:00] Speaker 2: that internal voice, whether it be, you know, like, I
[5:04] Speaker 2: don't want to sit on granddad's leg. Do you know
[5:07] Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, or I don't want to kiss grandma.
[5:08] Speaker 2: She's got prickly chin or whatever it is. I just,
[5:12] Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we honor our kids, those,
[5:16] Speaker 2: those feelings, because if we don't, we teach them to
[5:20] Speaker 2: kind of just ignore them.
[5:21] Speaker 1: Kylie, you're right. This starts at the youngest ages and
[5:24] Speaker 1: this is about consent. Like the kids are on the
[5:26] Speaker 1: trampoline and they're bouncing. And one of the kids says,
[5:29] Speaker 1: I need you to stop. It's scaring me. So does
[5:32] Speaker 1: the other sibling know how to stop because it's scaring someone?
[5:37] Speaker 2: I remember watching a movie with the kids when they
[5:40] Speaker 2: were younger. And it was a movie that I'd loved
[5:42] Speaker 2: as a kid. And one of the younger children, one
[5:46] Speaker 2: of our youngest children, was like, oh, this is really,
[5:48] Speaker 2: really scary. And I went to say to her, oh,
[5:52] Speaker 2: come on, it's okay. It's just a movie. And then
[5:55] Speaker 2: it dawned on me. It was like, no, that internal
[5:58] Speaker 2: voice is telling her this doesn't feel good. And I
[6:01] Speaker 2: actually need to honor that. I need to give her
[6:03] Speaker 2: the opportunity to recognize that. when her body says, I
[6:07] Speaker 2: don't like this, that that's a sign to listen to. Yeah.
[6:11] Speaker 1: Really love that. That happened again fairly recently. One of
[6:14] Speaker 1: our kids, our youngest, Emily, was watching Pirates of the Caribbean.
[6:17] Speaker 1: She loved it. She wanted to watch number two.
[6:19] Speaker 2: We're like, yeah, okay.
[6:20] Speaker 1: And then shortly after it started, she was like, I
[6:22] Speaker 1: don't feel good about this one. This one doesn't, the
[6:24] Speaker 1: other one made me laugh. I really liked it. But
[6:26] Speaker 1: this one doesn't have the same feeling. And we were like, great,
[6:28] Speaker 1: let's turn it off. You don't have to watch it
[6:30] Speaker 1: if you don't want to. And then it As the
[6:34] Speaker 1: kids grow it, it turns into things like I didn't
[6:36] Speaker 1: get invited to the party or my friend wanted to
[6:38] Speaker 1: go to the park but I wanted to go to
[6:39] Speaker 1: the beach or the shops. So figuring out how to
[6:43] Speaker 1: negotiate that in such a way that we're willing to
[6:46] Speaker 1: hear what other people are saying. And consent is this
[6:49] Speaker 1: thing where– and I teach this in my seminars. If
[6:52] Speaker 1: you get a circle and you say, here's what I want,
[6:53] Speaker 1: you get another circle and it's, here's what the person
[6:56] Speaker 1: I'm with wants. The bit where they overlap, like a
[6:59] Speaker 1: Venn diagram, that's the bit where we both want the
[7:01] Speaker 1: same thing. And that's the stuff that you do.
[7:04] Speaker 2: Yeah. So we've started this conversation about girls and boys' relationships, right?
[7:10] Speaker 2: And the idea that we might hold hands, and that
[7:13] Speaker 2: feels really good to both of us. But then one
[7:16] Speaker 2: of us wants to go further, and the other person doesn't.
[7:20] Speaker 2: It's being able to voice that, whether you're a boy
[7:23] Speaker 2: or a girl. Yep.
[7:24] Speaker 1: And if you're being the one who's rejected, and typically
[7:26] Speaker 1: that will be the guy, not always, but typically, then
[7:29] Speaker 1: being able to respond to that rejection with grace is
[7:32] Speaker 1: is the critical thing. And that's what we've got to
[7:33] Speaker 1: talk about. Now, after the break, there's a whole lot
[7:36] Speaker 1: more about where this comes from, why boys are doing
[7:38] Speaker 1: this and what we can do. Stay with us. That's next.
[7:49] Speaker 2: We're back.
[7:49] Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
[7:51] Speaker 2: So where do you think this behavior is actually coming from?
[7:53] Speaker 2: Can I say the internet? Do you think it's just internet?
[7:55] Speaker 2: Do you think that they're- No, it's from bigger kids.
[7:59] Speaker 1: It's from modeling.
[8:00] Speaker 2: I was about to say, I feel like kids are
[8:03] Speaker 2: watching this play out in different scenarios.
[8:09] Speaker 1: I'm stumbling over my words because there's like four or
[8:11] Speaker 1: five different things going through my head at once. There's
[8:14] Speaker 1: a line that I've been using a lot in relation
[8:15] Speaker 1: to my new book about boys building strong England from
[8:17] Speaker 1: the inside out, where I highlight that too many of
[8:20] Speaker 1: our boys are trying to be the man rather than
[8:21] Speaker 1: a man. there are so many young men who think
[8:25] Speaker 1: this is who they're supposed to be. And I'm using
[8:27] Speaker 1: the word supposed to be in inverted commas, right? They
[8:31] Speaker 1: act jealous and they pass it off as caring or
[8:36] Speaker 1: their possessiveness is some sort of sign of devotion, right?
[8:42] Speaker 2: They're not controlling.
[8:43] Speaker 1: They're just crazy about the other person. And so when
[8:47] Speaker 1: you think about it, when you flip those things around
[8:50] Speaker 1: and frame them that way, it actually makes it sound,
[8:53] Speaker 1: I think they think they're being a good boyfriend, but
[8:55] Speaker 1: they're not. They're being overtly, excessively, coercively controlling. And when
[9:01] Speaker 1: you look at what social media feeds, when you look
[9:03] Speaker 1: at the ugly parts of the manosphere, what their peers
[9:07] Speaker 1: are telling them, that's, it's not the only script, but
[9:11] Speaker 1: it is a popular script and it's gaining in popularity
[9:15] Speaker 1: because of some of the ugly things that are online. And,
[9:18] Speaker 1: and I will also say this, Parents are generally oblivious.
[9:22] Speaker 1: Parents are generally clueless or they shrug their shoulders and go,
[9:25] Speaker 1: you know, that's fine. That's what I was like when
[9:26] Speaker 1: I was a kid. This is just growing up. Everyone
[9:29] Speaker 1: has different morality and standards around that. And we've been
[9:31] Speaker 1: talking about that internally in our home a little bit lately.
[9:34] Speaker 1: There was one study that I saw recently that showed
[9:36] Speaker 1: that about 3% of parents are aware of some of
[9:39] Speaker 1: the ugly stuff that's on the manosphere. So for example,
[9:43] Speaker 1: what's his name? There's a white nationalist in the US.
[9:45] Speaker 1: His name's Nick Fuentes. He wrote this. He wrote, your
[9:50] Speaker 1: body my choice forever.
[9:52] Speaker 2: I don't want to vomit.
[9:56] Speaker 1: It's horrendous it's horrendous But here's the thing. He got
[9:59] Speaker 1: more than 90 million views on that, and the line
[10:01] Speaker 1: was being used in schools within days, being chanted at
[10:04] Speaker 1: girls by the boys, right? So you've got these ugly, ugly,
[10:08] Speaker 1: horrendous things being said online, and then the boys say
[10:12] Speaker 1: it because they get status from it. They feel like
[10:14] Speaker 1: they're the man. There's nothing manly about it, but they
[10:16] Speaker 1: feel like they're the man. You've got all the Andrew
[10:19] Speaker 1: Tate stuff. We don't need to go into that.
[10:20] Speaker 2: He's just horrendous.
[10:21] Speaker 1: You've got Australian teachers reporting that students as young as
[10:25] Speaker 1: six refuse instructions from female staff, but then they will
[10:30] Speaker 1: follow identical instructions from male staff. I had one teacher
[10:33] Speaker 1: tell me.
[10:33] Speaker 2: Boys and girls? No, boys.
[10:35] Speaker 1: I had one primary school teacher tell me that a
[10:37] Speaker 1: six-year-old boy told her to stop telling him what to
[10:40] Speaker 1: do and go and make her a sandwich. These might
[10:43] Speaker 1: sound like they're exceptional cases, and I think that I
[10:45] Speaker 1: think that in the main they are, but they still
[10:47] Speaker 1: happen a lot. And if that happened, like if I
[10:51] Speaker 1: was a, if I was a female teacher and a
[10:53] Speaker 1: six or a seven year old boy said that to me,
[10:55] Speaker 1: I'd just like, I'd want to strangle him. But I'd
[10:57] Speaker 1: also be like this poor kid, this kid, where, where
[11:00] Speaker 1: is he getting this from?
[11:01] Speaker 2: And how do we change this? Recently I was having
[11:06] Speaker 2: a conversation with one of our girls and she'd been
[11:09] Speaker 2: in a situation where a young man tried to kiss
[11:11] Speaker 2: her and she just knew that she didn't want to
[11:16] Speaker 2: go there right then. And she kind of just, she
[11:19] Speaker 2: put her head down and shied away. And this beautiful
[11:24] Speaker 2: young man took a step back and he said, I
[11:28] Speaker 2: get the feeling that you don't want to kiss me.
[11:30] Speaker 2: And she said, no, it's not that. It's just, I
[11:32] Speaker 2: just want to take this nice and slow. And as
[11:35] Speaker 2: she was sharing this, she said, mom, I have done
[11:38] Speaker 2: that move so many times. And she said, every single
[11:42] Speaker 2: time I have, shied away the young man has kind
[11:46] Speaker 2: of forcibly taken my face into his hands basically and
[11:50] Speaker 2: and kissed me and it's such a like almost small
[11:56] Speaker 2: act right it's like this moment where this boy's being
[11:59] Speaker 2: bold he thinks he's being bold he wants to show
[12:02] Speaker 2: this girl who's a little bit shy and not sure
[12:04] Speaker 2: if she wants to go there that he really likes
[12:07] Speaker 2: her but he's taken away her choice and To have
[12:11] Speaker 2: that experience, she said to me, I never realized, and
[12:14] Speaker 2: this was really powerful, I never realized I had a choice.
[12:19] Speaker 2: In that moment, I get to decide whether or not
[12:21] Speaker 2: I'm going to go through with that.
[12:23] Speaker 1: And so what happened? You didn't finish?
[12:25] Speaker 2: He didn't kiss her. And they were able to have
[12:27] Speaker 2: a really beautiful conversation. And he honored that.
[12:30] Speaker 1: He accepted the rejection with some grace.
[12:32] Speaker 2: That's right. And they've continued speaking and enjoying a friendship together.
[12:36] Speaker 1: So we need to wrap this conversation up. I really
[12:39] Speaker 1: wanted to highlight Sonia Kilkenny's comments because those three questions matter, right?
[12:45] Speaker 1: Do you know that's wrong? Do young men know that
[12:47] Speaker 1: if they.
[12:47] Speaker 2: Go to kiss a girl and- She shies away. That's it.
[12:51] Speaker 1: That's the end of it.
[12:52] Speaker 2: Stop. If she's- If she's the one kissing you, then
[12:55] Speaker 2: kiss her back.
[12:56] Speaker 1: But if you're the one doing the kissing, this has
[12:58] Speaker 1: got to be a mutual thing. Do you know that
[13:00] Speaker 1: it's a red flag? What do the girls think about this?
[13:02] Speaker 1: I go back to what I wrote in Boys. Healthy
[13:04] Speaker 1: males help the people around them feel safer and stronger.
[13:07] Speaker 1: And if you want to help your kids to get
[13:08] Speaker 1: this right, ask them this tonight or this afternoon. When
[13:12] Speaker 1: did you see a boy or a man help someone
[13:13] Speaker 1: feel safer and stronger today? And then listen really closely
[13:17] Speaker 1: to the answer and respond with, how did it feel
[13:20] Speaker 1: to watch that happen? And then reverse it. when did
[13:24] Speaker 1: you see a boy or a man leave someone feeling
[13:26] Speaker 1: smaller or weaker today and have that feel and then
[13:31] Speaker 1: wrap it up with what kind of man do you
[13:33] Speaker 1: want to be the first one on the second one?
[13:36] Speaker 1: Or if it's your daughter, what kind of boy or
[13:39] Speaker 1: man do you want to spend time with the first
[13:40] Speaker 1: one on the second one? To me, that's the conversation,
[13:43] Speaker 1: have that conversation regularly. And that's when you see it.
[13:46] Speaker 1: I think we need to start calling out red flags.
[13:48] Speaker 1: We've got to be open about pornography because my goodness,
[13:50] Speaker 1: the scripts that are there are horrendous. And, really, we
[13:55] Speaker 1: just want to keep the conversation going, right? Like, I
[13:57] Speaker 1: think if we go back to Sonia Kinney's story, she's
[13:59] Speaker 1: got a 16-year-old son, this attorney general. She's got a
[14:02] Speaker 1: 16-year-old son. She's talking to him about this coercive control
[14:05] Speaker 1: stuff that she's working on. And he discloses. He wants
[14:09] Speaker 1: his mom to know. This is what the boys are doing.
[14:12] Speaker 1: To me, that's what everything else depends on. Kids staying
[14:17] Speaker 1: in a conversation with us because that's where they get
[14:19] Speaker 1: our guidance. And the kids that don't have a conversation
[14:22] Speaker 1: with us get someone else's.
[14:24] Speaker 2: I love the conversation we had around the dinner table
[14:26] Speaker 2: when we celebrated Father's Day and each of our girls
[14:29] Speaker 2: acknowledged that the thing that they loved about you the
[14:33] Speaker 2: most as their dad was the way you loved me
[14:36] Speaker 2: and the way you left me feeling. And the legacy
[14:41] Speaker 2: and example that you've set for them enables them to
[14:44] Speaker 2: go looking for the kind of man that leaves them
[14:46] Speaker 2: feeling safer and stronger, that literally has them feeling encapsulated
[14:53] Speaker 2: in unconditional love and a sense of safety on every level.
[14:57] Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roulon from
[15:00] Speaker 1: Bridge Media with additional support from Mim Hammonds. For more
[15:03] Speaker 1: info about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies.com.au. And if
[15:06] Speaker 1: you reckon a talk like this would go well for
[15:08] Speaker 1: the parents at your school, contact my office. I'd love
[15:11] Speaker 1: to come and give a talk wherever you are.

Shows are listed from Apple Podcasts' charts and directory, and Podcast Index where it is used. Every show and episode belongs to its publisher and plays from the publisher's own feed; this site hosts none of them.