# Why Venus May Have Lost Its Moon Forever

An episode of [Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1080090608), 17 Sep 2026, 34 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/op3.dev/e/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/75183217/why_venus_may_have_lost_its_moon_forever_nordvpn.mp3

Sponsor Link: This episode of Space Nuts is brought to you with the support of NordVPN. your first stop for online privavcy. To check out our special offer with a 30 day money back guarantee, visit www.nordvpn.com/spacenuts Space Nuts: Venus’s Missing Moon, Satellite Pollution, and Space Force Uniform Controversy Space Nuts covers three very different space stories in this episode, ranging from planetary science to the consequences of satellite reentry and a controversial military uniform design. Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson also field listener questions on orbital mechanics, neutrinos, alien communication, and time dilation. The discussion is broad, but the main thread is clear: how real-world physics shapes everything from Venus’s history to the future of spaceflight and even the look of space-age uniforms. Key topics Venus is Earth-like in size, mass, and gravity, but unlike Earth it has no moon, and the episode explores whether it may once have had one. Fred explains a modeling study led by Stephen Kane suggesting a Venus moon could have spiraled inward, crossed the Roche limit, and been torn apart by tidal forces. The team discusses what evidence might remain if Venus once consumed a moon, including possible chemical fingerprints in the atmosphere or surface. Satellite pollution is examined through the lens of reentering spacecraft, especially the growing number of Starlink reentries and their impact on the upper atmosphere. The European Space Agency’s jet-based chase of two reentering Cluster spacecraft, Tango and Samba, is described as an effort to measure reentry byproducts directly. The conversation raises concerns about aluminium oxides, atmospheric chemistry, and whether repeated reentries could have broader consequences such as ozone depletion. The final main story looks at proposed United States Space Force uniforms and why the design drew immediate comparisons to World War II-era fascist aesthetics and Starship Troopers. Andrew and Fred note how uniform design can shape perception, and why the new concept feels divisive rather than inspiring. Timestamps 00:00 - Intro and setup for the episode 00:41 - Venus, satellite pollution, and Space Force uniforms preview 04:40 - Venus as Earth’s twin and why it has no moon 08:21 - Modeling a missing Venusian moon 09:20 - Gravitational tug-of-war and moon migration toward Venus 11:44 - Conditions for a moon to survive around Venus 12:43 - Possible traces of an ancient moon impact 16:06 - Satellite pollution from reentering spacecraft 17:16 - Starlink reentries and atmospheric contamination 18:14 - ESA’s jet chase of reentering Cluster spacecraft 20:06 - Observing Tango and Samba during controlled reentry 21:45 - Why the atmospheric consequences could become controversial 23:12 - Wood as a potentially more benign spacecraft material 24:16 - Space Force uniforms and the first visual reaction 25:34 - Starship Troopers and deliberate fascist design cues 27:29 - Why the proposed uniforms feel unsettling Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts-astronomy-insights-cosmic-discoveries--2631155/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is
[0:02] Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy and space
[0:04] science and dogs and cats living together and
[0:08] just about anything, really. There's no topic
[0:10] that is, uh, ever, um, ignored.
[0:14] Even when you don't want us to talk about it,
[0:16] we'll talk about it.
[0:17] Actually, we've got one of those storeys in
[0:19] this episode. Uh, not the first one, though,
[0:21] because we're going to discuss Venus. Now, in
[0:24] many ways, Venus is just like Earth, except
[0:27] for one striking difference. Aside from the
[0:30] weather, it doesn't have a moon. Why not?
[0:33] Well, um, yeah, there's probably a very
[0:35] dark reason for that. Uh, satellite
[0:38] pollution. Uh, we're not talking about
[0:40] satellites in orbit polluting, uh, our
[0:43] skies and making life for astronomers very
[0:45] difficult. We're talking about when they come
[0:47] back into the atmosphere and literally
[0:50] pollute our, uh, atmosphere. We'll see
[0:53] what's going on there.
[0:54] And the United States Space
[0:57] Force uniforms have been unveiled. At
[1:00] least one concept, and it's got some tongues
[1:02] wagging, some wiggling and some people
[1:05] scratching their heads. We'll talk about all
[1:07] of that on this episode of space nuts.
[1:09] Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
[1:12] 10, 9. Ignition
[1:15] sequence start.
[1:16] Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.
[1:17] Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2. 1, 2, 3, 4,
[1:20] 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
[1:22] Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts.
[1:23] Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.
[1:26] Andrew Dunkley: And he's back. Once again, it's Professor
[1:28] Fred Watson Watson, Astronomer at large.
[1:29] Hello, Fred Watson.
[1:31] Professor Fred Watson: Uh, hello, Andrew. You mean we're not going
[1:34] to cover migraines again this week or.
[1:36] Andrew Dunkley: Why not? We can do that if you like. We've
[1:39] talked about that before.
[1:40] Professor Fred Watson: Um, yeah, yeah, we did.
[1:42] Andrew Dunkley: I mean, we've reached that age where the
[1:44] first topic, because I'm the captain of
[1:47] the veteran golfers at our local
[1:50] club and, um,
[1:53] the first topic, whenever you sit down, is,
[1:55] um, your health. And what have you had done
[1:58] this week?
[2:00] Professor Fred Watson: Well, yes, I'm sure that's right,
[2:03] because I'm a little bit older than you, my
[2:05] topics are even more interesting. So I was at
[2:07] a presentation last night where they were
[2:08] talking about coffins, uh, made out of
[2:11] mushroom fibre.
[2:12] Andrew Dunkley: Oh, my goodness. Yeah,
[2:15] okay, that is different.
[2:17] Professor Fred Watson: It's different. Yeah, different. But
[2:19] apparently it works.
[2:20] Andrew Dunkley: Well, it'd be a lot cheaper, wouldn't it?
[2:22] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, they don't last very long. Two days, I
[2:24] think, is the time it takes to decay.
[2:26] Andrew Dunkley: Wow.
[2:26] Professor Fred Watson: No, actually, I think it might be a bit
[2:28] longer than that.
[2:29] Professor Fred Watson: Very.
[2:29] Professor Fred Watson: Ah, interesting presentation, though, on, um,
[2:33] the. From the Symbioscene
[2:36] Institute, uh, which is looking
[2:38] at the ways that humankind can live
[2:41] more comfortably with its own planet
[2:44] rather than being the terrible Colonial
[2:48] um, species that we've been to date.
[2:50] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. The problem with that is you've got to
[2:52] get everyone to agree.
[2:54] Professor Fred Watson: Uh, exactly. That was going to be my
[2:57] point which I never really got to raise.
[3:01] Andrew Dunkley: People come up with all these wonderful ideas
[3:03] about how we can do things right. But, and
[3:06] you know, some countries will go, well, you
[3:08] know, we don't want to do that. So we're not.
[3:11] Professor Fred Watson: So I think um, just as, as an idea though and
[3:14] as a concept, I think this has
[3:17] much to uh, um, approve
[3:20] of and it, and the reason what took me
[3:23] there was um. Marnie was part of a panel
[3:25] discussion yesterday.
[3:28] Excuse me, I'm sorry, sorry Marnie, I sneezed
[3:31] in the middle of your promo there. She was
[3:34] part of a panel discussion, uh, which one of
[3:36] the other guests was, was an
[3:38] advocate, in fact the founder of the
[3:40] Symbiosine Institute.
[3:43] Andrew Dunkley: Well I think if you go to um,
[3:47] try to make those kinds of changes in
[3:50] the psyche of humanity, it's going to be
[3:52] a multi generational approach.
[3:55] It's not going to be something we all just go
[3:57] to do the next day. Okay, we're
[4:00] now doing this. It just wouldn't
[4:03] happen.
[4:04] Professor Fred Watson: No, you're right, humans don't work that way.
[4:06] But uh, hopefully with
[4:09] enough panic from climate
[4:12] change, some things will change.
[4:15] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, certainly needs to happen that way.
[4:18] Professor Fred Watson: Indeed.
[4:19] Andrew Dunkley: Shall we get down to business?
[4:21] Professor Fred Watson: Well, why not?
[4:22] Andrew Dunkley: All right, our very first question uh,
[4:25] is focusing um, on our uh,
[4:28] twin planet. Um, when we say twin,
[4:31] we're the good twin, it's the evil twin.
[4:33] We're talking about Venus. Uh, I mean
[4:36] size wise it's similar to Earth. In fact
[4:39] everything about it is similar to Earth.
[4:41] Size, mass, gravity, that kind of thing.
[4:43] Except it's got a God awful
[4:46] weather pattern and it doesn't have a
[4:49] moon. And that's the subject of this
[4:51] particular storey because they're trying to
[4:53] figure out why.
[4:55] Professor Fred Watson: Indeed. That's right. Uh, yes. Often referred
[4:58] to as Earth's ugly sister because of all the
[5:01] things that you've mentioned, the
[5:02] similarities and um, as we're
[5:05] recording it's very prominent in our evening
[5:07] skies at the moment. Really can't fail to see
[5:10] the planet Venus as it uh, approaches its
[5:13] greatest distance from the sun. Greatest
[5:15] angular distance from the sun. In fact it may
[5:17] even have passed it. I've kind of lost track
[5:19] with my confinement to hospitals and things
[5:22] of that sort recently. Uh, but it is still
[5:24] very spectacular in the evening sky. Anyway,
[5:26] a planet about the size of ours, uh,
[5:29] of which we know a lot um, thanks
[5:32] to orbiting spacecraft which have Carried
[5:34] with them radar, uh, uh, equipment in
[5:37] order to be able to map m the surface.
[5:39] Because the atmosphere of course is largely
[5:42] opaque, uh you can penetrate the
[5:44] atmosphere down to surface in infrared. That
[5:47] was done actually by one of my former
[5:49] colleagues at the Anglo Australian Telescope,
[5:51] David Allen, back in the 1990s I
[5:54] think, or maybe 1980s using infrared
[5:57] uh radiation managed to see the surface of
[5:59] Venus which is quite a uh, spectacular
[6:02] outcome. Um, but the best way to do it
[6:05] is with radar and from that we can see the
[6:06] topography.
[6:07] This jury I think is still out on whether
[6:10] uh Venus has plate tectonics because we see
[6:13] conflicting results. Uh, but
[6:16] the one thing that we do know for absolute
[6:18] certain uh, is that it doesn't have a moon.
[6:21] Um, uh, Mercury and Venus, the only two
[6:24] planets in the solar system that do not
[6:26] have satellites, at least do not have
[6:29] natural satellites. Um
[6:33] so the question that you would ask as a
[6:36] scientist is that significant is
[6:39] that um, you know, is
[6:41] it just happen, just the fact that
[6:44] the planet happens not to have a moon
[6:47] or whether it is a uh,
[6:50] situation where Venus once did have a
[6:53] moon. Um, given that moons are pretty common
[6:56] throughout the solar system, perhaps uh,
[6:58] there was a similar formation event to the
[7:00] event that formed our moon when uh, Theia,
[7:03] the object size of Mars clouted the Earth in
[7:06] the early history of the solar system and
[7:09] eventually that coalesced to form the moon
[7:11] which uh, both way. I read a headline not
[7:14] very long ago that looks as though that
[7:16] formation of the moon from that debris cloud
[7:18] might have happened very very quickly. And I
[7:20] can't remember how quickly it was but it was
[7:22] surprisingly quickly. You might have seen
[7:25] that too I
[7:26] Andrew Dunkley: think uh, Jonty and I did actually do that
[7:28] Storey.
[7:28] Professor Fred Watson: Okay, great.
[7:30] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, um, so uh,
[7:33] yeah I was trying to find it actually through
[7:35] my notes. M seen my notes.
[7:38] These are all past episodes, all my notes.
[7:41] Professor Fred Watson: But I could have nicely filed Ye
[7:44] Andrew Dunkley: it's just a neat pile. It's not file
[7:48] uh, but um, I couldn't find it. But yeah, I
[7:50] was trying to remember what we did about
[7:52] Venus previously and that was it.
[7:54] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, okay. Anyway,
[7:57] um, yes, so Venus may have had the same
[8:00] experience. Uh what uh,
[8:03] would have happened though if uh, Venus had
[8:05] had a moon? Why isn't it there now? And
[8:08] so this is the uh
[8:11] thesis of ah, a group of scientists
[8:14] um led by um, Stephen Cain who's at
[8:17] the University of California Riverside. Uh
[8:20] he uh and his colleagues
[8:22] have looked to see you know
[8:26] what might have happened had Venus had
[8:29] a moon. So it's all done by modelling of
[8:31] course, um,
[8:34] their Comments more or less, as we've just
[8:37] related, uh, this is a comment from Stephen.
[8:40] Venus undoubtedly experienced large impacts
[8:42] just as as Earth has and so has had
[8:45] m as much if not more opportunity to form
[8:48] a moon similar to what we see in our own
[8:50] skies.
[8:51] So, all right, put a moon there in your
[8:54] modelling um, and see
[8:57] what happens. And this is the
[9:00] interesting bit because um,
[9:02] there is a really very neat
[9:05] explanation for why Venus doesn't have a
[9:07] moon. That comes almost straight
[9:10] out of the modelling. Uh, and it's all about
[9:14] what the they describe as the gravitational
[9:16] tug of war between Venus, a
[9:18] hypothetical moon and the sun. And
[9:21] if you track this over billions of years,
[9:25] what you get is a situation
[9:29] opposite to what we've got on um,
[9:32] planet Earth. And that is that
[9:34] the laws of physics dictate uh, that
[9:37] because um, there is
[9:40] basically an impulse given to the moon
[9:43] from the Earth's rotation slowing down,
[9:46] uh, it means the moon is drifting away from
[9:48] Earth. And that's um, something we've
[9:51] talked about, it's well known, well
[9:53] established, one of those phenomena that
[9:56] we recognise as being scientific facts.
[9:59] But uh, what they
[10:02] found, what these researchers found when they
[10:04] put the same sort of analysis into Venus and
[10:07] a moon, uh, the moon would go the other way.
[10:10] Uh, it would basically eventually,
[10:14] um, it would start to drift
[10:17] inwards towards Venus
[10:20] and spiral towards the
[10:22] planet, eventually passing within the
[10:25] Roche limit, which is where you can't have
[10:28] something uh, staying together because of the
[10:31] competing gravitational pull on one side and
[10:33] the other what we call the tidal effect.
[10:37] So it would break up, um, and
[10:40] uh, even a
[10:43] big moon, uh, would not
[10:46] necessarily survive.
[10:47] Uh, in fact one of the comments that Stephen
[10:50] Kane makes is an interesting aspect is that a
[10:53] heavier moon is destroyed faster since
[10:56] a massive moon would drain Venus's spin so
[10:58] efficiently that it hastens its destruction.
[11:02] Uh, and so um, that
[11:05] is the basic outcome of
[11:08] this work. I um, think
[11:12] in uh, fact I'm sure that they looked
[11:14] at a whole variety these
[11:17] researchers of different scenarios. Uh,
[11:20] and one of the questions they addressed was
[11:23] are there any circumstances under which a
[11:25] Venusian m moon could actually survive?
[11:29] And the comments that Stephen, uh, Kane made
[11:32] on this are uh, survival came down to two
[11:34] main things. Venus had to be
[11:37] spinning fast when the moon formed
[11:40] with a day shorter than about 12 hours. And
[11:43] the moon couldn't be too massive up to
[11:45] roughly the mass of our own moon. In that
[11:48] narrow window, the moon migrates outwards and
[11:50] stabilises much as the Earth did. Outside
[11:53] that range, the moon is unfortunately
[11:56] doomed to be consumed by Venus.
[11:59] So a Surviving moon would have to be
[12:02] modest in size, orbiting a rapidly spinning
[12:05] early Venus, which are conditions that don't
[12:07] match what we think the early Venus was
[12:09] actually like.
[12:11] Uh, and so, you know, the
[12:14] upshot of this is,
[12:16] um, maybe indeed Venus did
[12:19] have a moon, which eventually was
[12:22] essentially gobbled up by Venus. It was
[12:25] drifted inwards, uh, was torn apart and the
[12:27] debris essentially rained down on the planet.
[12:31] Um, the
[12:34] next step would be essentially
[12:38] to look for any, what you might
[12:41] call geological evidence,
[12:44] uh, on Venus that would
[12:47] give you some
[12:49] hints that this is what happened. Uh,
[12:52] forgive me, Andrew, because I think I'm about
[12:54] to sneeze.
[12:55] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I've been fighting one for the last few
[12:57] minutes too.
[12:58] Professor Fred Watson: Why are we both sneezing? It's the time of
[13:01] year. That's right. Uh, let me, um, quote
[13:04] again, uh, Stephen Cain. Uh,
[13:06] finding direct observational evidence is
[13:09] pretty tough. A moon lost billions
[13:12] of years ago would leave little to no direct
[13:14] trace we can point a telescope at today
[13:17] so we can't observe the event itself.
[13:20] However, there are indirect avenues. For
[13:22] example, if a moon was destroyed
[13:25] and its debris rained down on Venus, it could
[13:28] have left a chemical fingerprint in the
[13:30] planet's surface or atmosphere. And upcoming
[13:33] missions to Venus, including NASA's da
[13:35] Vinci, uh, will measure the
[13:38] atmospheric composition in detail. So it is
[13:41] possible, uh, that we might eventually, um,
[13:45] find something. Uh, one other comment from
[13:47] Stephen Cain is there's a broader test beyond
[13:50] our solar system because our results predict
[13:52] that slowly rotating Venus, like planets
[13:55] around other stars, should generically
[13:58] lack large moons. So as astronomers
[14:00] begin searching for moons around exoplanets,
[14:03] that's a prediction that can eventually be
[14:06] checked against real data. Uh, so, yeah, it's
[14:09] very, very nice piece of work. Uh, I think a
[14:11] very interesting outcome as well.
[14:13] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, and it sort of harps back to a storey
[14:16] from a few weeks ago about, uh, how they
[14:19] do think they have found continental size
[14:24] anomalies, um, deep in our
[14:26] crust that suggests parts of Theia
[14:29] exist.
[14:30] Professor Fred Watson: Might be parts of Theia. That's right, yes,
[14:32] indeed. Yeah.
[14:33] Andrew Dunkley: So, yeah, then you can draw a similarity
[14:35] there. And so, yeah, there probably is
[14:37] evidence if that's indeed what happened. But,
[14:40] yeah. Ah, how do you find it?
[14:43] Professor Fred Watson: Well, um, we're very, uh, resourceful, uh,
[14:46] in that regard, I think. I think, um,
[14:48] scientists, particularly astronomers, because
[14:50] they, you know, they've got.
[14:52] All they've got is what comes in, usually on
[14:55] electromagnetic radiation, apart from a few
[14:57] satellites going here and there. Uh, but,
[15:00] yes, um, uh,
[15:03] uh, I think we might well
[15:06] get some hints as to whether this has
[15:08] happened in the past or not.
[15:09] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Okay. Uh if you'd like to read up
[15:12] on that storey uh great article@spare.com or
[15:15] you can uh see the pre peer
[15:18] reviewed paper on the repository site
[15:21] arXiv. This is space Nuts with Andrew
[15:23] Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson Watson.
[15:28] Professor Fred Watson: Roger, you're lots Space Nuts.
[15:31] Andrew Dunkley: Okay, let's uh get close to
[15:34] home. In fact uh, we're getting right down
[15:37] and dirty into our own atmosphere with this
[15:39] storey and it's got to do with satellite
[15:41] pollution. Now the number of satellites that
[15:44] are starting to appear in our sky is
[15:47] somewhat um, disturbing when it comes to
[15:50] um optical astronomy. In fact I
[15:52] saw a photo the other day where this problem
[15:55] was exhibited. Uh where they'd done a little
[15:58] bit of time lapse and the
[16:01] satellite that image were
[16:04] horrifying. Uh if you're an astronomer they
[16:07] were probably really interesting for
[16:09] other people. But uh, it looked the same as
[16:12] um the contrails that you see
[16:15] airliners leaving the sky. Um
[16:19] but it was actually the light reflection
[16:21] images of the uh satellites. But the
[16:24] other problem with them is when they come
[16:26] back down uh, they burn up and
[16:29] what happens to all that stuff? And that's
[16:31] the nuts and bolts of this storey.
[16:34] They've chased a couple down to try and
[16:36] figure out what happens to you know
[16:39] everything that burns off them.
[16:42] Professor Fred Watson: Exactly. So and um, it is a
[16:45] um. This uh essentially
[16:47] experiment is very well timed because at the
[16:49] moment we're with the Starlink
[16:52] constellation which I think is kind of
[16:54] already past 12,000 spacecraft. Uh
[16:58] not all of them functioning. Um
[17:01] those are re entering at about one a day.
[17:04] That's the current rate. And every time one
[17:06] of those re uh enters the atmosphere it burns
[17:09] up at about 90 kilometres or thereabouts
[17:12] above the Earth's surface and its
[17:15] contents, its metallic contents become part
[17:18] of the upper atmosphere. Uh and we
[17:21] already are seeing um, higher levels of
[17:24] certain oxides of aluminium and things of
[17:26] that sort.
[17:26] Uh uh that are probably the result of
[17:29] these uh reentering satellites. So
[17:33] uh, the European Space
[17:36] Agency uh has
[17:39] I uh think uh in
[17:41] collaboration with a number of other
[17:44] organisations. Uh what they've done
[17:46] is they have decided that they're going to
[17:49] cheque this out directly. And the way they've
[17:52] done that is by hiring a private jet as
[17:55] you do. Um and it's
[17:59] using uh, that uh private jet. They've
[18:01] basically chased a pair of reentering
[18:04] satellites. Um both were due to re
[18:07] enter uh at about the same um
[18:10] place I think a day apart. Um and so
[18:13] what they've done is um, actually
[18:16] basically followed these In a jet which
[18:18] is festooned with uh
[18:21] spectrometers, images, uh and
[18:23] all of the equipment that we use to try
[18:26] and learn about what's happening when
[18:29] things burn up in space. Uh and
[18:32] so uh, um essentially
[18:35] uh the satellites tracked
[18:38] uh in detail uh I like
[18:41] um the spacecraft that
[18:44] they chose because there was a constellation
[18:47] called Cluster which I think we might have
[18:49] talked about many years ago. A European Space
[18:51] Agency constellation which had four
[18:54] individual spacecraft uh which
[18:57] were named after well known
[18:59] dances, Tango, samba, rumba and
[19:02] Salsa.
[19:03] Uh were the quartet of uh the Cluster
[19:06] spacecraft and they actually were studying
[19:09] the way the Earth's magnetic field uh
[19:12] interacts with the solar wind. And they were
[19:15] launched back in I think back in the 90s.
[19:17] It's a long, long time ago. But their
[19:20] orbits um were
[19:23] decaying and in fact uh, Rumba and Salsa
[19:26] I think decayed quite some time ago. So what
[19:29] was uh in question here was since
[19:32] they you know these spacecraft are still
[19:34] sending telemetry back so you know what their
[19:36] velocity is, you when and where these things
[19:39] are going to re. Enter the atmosphere. Uh and
[19:41] it was Tango and Samba which
[19:44] were basically uh,
[19:47] um they had controlled RE entry and
[19:50] it was basically that re entry that was uh
[19:53] observed by this mission using ah
[19:56] a chaser jet, if I can put it that way
[19:59] uh over the South Pacific Ocean. So
[20:02] uh, what we've seen I think is that this was
[20:05] successful. There's been um
[20:09] a bit of a report saying that um
[20:12] the outcome of the experiment was successful
[20:14] and that they got the data that they wanted.
[20:16] I'm uh not sure whether we yet have the
[20:19] details of what that
[20:21] analysis was, you know in terms of
[20:24] what the exact uh effects on the
[20:27] atmosphere and the byproducts that
[20:30] came from uh the reentry of these two
[20:32] spacecraft.
[20:33] So I think those results are still yet
[20:36] uh to be described but at least the
[20:38] experiments are worked. Uh apparently there
[20:40] were eight scientists on board this aircraft
[20:43] and they um observed
[20:46] the satellites from about 90 kilometres
[20:49] down to something like 65 to
[20:52] 70 kilometres when they stopped, basically
[20:54] stopped burning up. Uh so
[20:58] they were then completely vaporised. Uh so
[21:00] these details uh as I said we hope we will
[21:03] find a little bit more uh as the results
[21:06] come from that group of
[21:09] scient, they've
[21:11] Andrew Dunkley: finished analysing the data and
[21:14] start uh publishing uh it could
[21:16] turn into something quite controversial
[21:18] because if they reveal that there's some
[21:21] really nasty stuff coming out of all of this,
[21:24] you know a handful of satellites doing this
[21:26] probably no big deal but we're going to be
[21:29] talking over decades to come
[21:32] tens of thousands burning up,
[21:35] probably more.
[21:36] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. When it's one a day, uh, which it is
[21:39] now, then, uh, you're potentially in trouble.
[21:41] And you're absolutely right, Andrew, because
[21:44] one of the possibilities is something
[21:47] we thought we'd licked back in the 1980s, and
[21:50] that's ozone depletion. Um, that's one
[21:53] of the possible outcomes of this. And that
[21:56] would then become a really hot political
[22:00] hot potato politically. Uh, given
[22:02] that you've now got people saying, well,
[22:04] we've got all these pollutants that are
[22:06] actually starting to affect the behaviour of
[22:08] the upper atmosphere. And on the other side
[22:10] of the coin, you've got people saying, well,
[22:11] we need Starlink because it's actually a
[22:13] vital, uh, service, it's vital
[22:15] infrastructure now on so many fronts. You've
[22:18] got a really quite interesting situation
[22:20] emerging, I think.
[22:21] Andrew Dunkley: Sure have.
[22:22] Professor Fred Watson: And,
[22:24] Andrew Dunkley: yeah,
[22:28] where do you point the finger, if you want to
[22:30] put it that way? Uh, how do you, um,
[22:33] curtail these effects and whose
[22:35] responsibility does it become?
[22:38] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you start looking, I think, at, um,
[22:40] what you make your spacecraft out of. The
[22:42] Japanese have demonstrated that you can make
[22:44] wooden spacecraft and operate them
[22:46] successfully. Uh, and I think wood
[22:48] is one of the more benign, uh,
[22:51] materials, um, that would burn up. Of
[22:54] course, you still got soot and carbon coming
[22:56] off that. But, um, it might not be the
[22:59] aluminium that, um, is
[23:01] certainly the biggest constituent of, of what
[23:04] is coming from present satellite reentries.
[23:07] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed. M. So, yeah, it's a case of,
[23:10] watch this. Space.
[23:11] Uh, we will probably learn more about this
[23:14] and, uh, we'll tell you all about it when
[23:17] that day comes. Um, but they'll be analysing
[23:19] the data at the moment and,
[23:22] uh, we hope it's good news, but I've got a
[23:24] feeling it won't be, Fred Watson.
[23:26] Professor Fred Watson: M. Yeah, I think you're right.
[23:28] Andrew Dunkley: Okay. Uh, that is a storey you can Also
[23:31] read@spare.com this is Space
[23:34] Nuts. Andrew Dunc, frankly, here with
[23:36] Fred Watson Watson,
[23:41] Professor Fred Watson: Tranquilly Base here. The Eagle has landed.
[23:44] Space Nuts.
[23:46] Andrew Dunkley: Our final storey. Uh, Fred Watson,
[23:48] takes us into the realm of science fiction,
[23:51] at least in part. Uh, they have just
[23:54] unveiled what might be
[23:56] the new United, uh, States
[23:59] Space Force uniforms.
[24:02] And they've got tongues wagging
[24:05] because they've drawn some similarities
[24:07] between the uniforms. And when I first saw
[24:10] them, my mind immediately went to,
[24:13] um, SS uniforms of World War II.
[24:15] Professor Fred Watson: Exactly.
[24:17] Andrew Dunkley: And, uh, that is the controversy because they
[24:19] do not sort of. I mean, it's the first
[24:22] thing that comes to mind when you look at
[24:24] these designs which have just been unveiled.
[24:28] Professor Fred Watson: Um, and Just to clarify where this has come
[24:30] from. It's come from Truth Social. Uh, it's
[24:33] one of uh, President Trump's
[24:37] basically, uh, uh, one of his posts on Truth
[24:39] Social. The um, as yet
[24:42] unconfirmed design is how it's being
[24:44] described.
[24:45] But yes, um, that was my thought too
[24:48] when I looked at this. I thought, wait a
[24:49] minute, I've seen that sort of thing before.
[24:52] Um, but you are ah, probably aware as well of
[24:55] the sort of science fiction links that there
[24:58] are with uh, with this, where this
[25:00] uniform is said to have come from.
[25:02] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, this, uh, back in the
[25:05] 90s, the late 90s, uh, 1997, there was a
[25:08] movie released based on a book called
[25:10] Starship Troopers. And
[25:13] anybody who's watched that film, and I've
[25:14] watched it multiple times, it's a bit
[25:17] tongue in cheek. Um, there's a lot of,
[25:20] um, to use the Australian vernacular,
[25:23] Jingo is a m. Minute. Um, but it
[25:26] portrays a, ah, human society that is
[25:29] very, very authoritari, very,
[25:33] very super aggressive, very um,
[25:36] competitive. Uh, lots of.
[25:39] It would be a very tense place to live
[25:42] if Earth as we know it,
[25:45] um, was the way Starship Troopers
[25:48] portrays human life. And they're at war
[25:51] against the bugs, um, who live
[25:54] on a planet called Clandathu. You know what's
[25:57] sad about this, Fred Watson? I'm doing it all
[25:58] from memory. And they have been shooting
[26:01] asteroids at ear. And um, in the
[26:04] movie they destroy the city of Buenos Aires.
[26:06] And that sort of causes um,
[26:09] the humans to up the ante in terms of
[26:12] trying to eliminate the bugs. Uh, and
[26:15] so it goes on. But what's striking about it,
[26:18] not only the authoritarian,
[26:21] um, nature of the military in
[26:25] this film, is the uniforms.
[26:28] They are dead set. Um, just
[26:31] like the uniforms that have been
[26:33] suggested as the new U.S. space Force
[26:36] uniforms. I did a bit of research on this,
[26:38] Fred Watson.
[26:39] Um, uh, the uniforms in
[26:42] um, the 1997 film
[26:45] Starship Troopers were deliberately designed
[26:48] by a costume designer, Ellen
[26:50] mirojink, uh, to evoke
[26:53] fascist aesthetics.
[26:55] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, so.
[26:56] Andrew Dunkley: So they're basically designed
[26:59] around the Nazi military uniform.
[27:02] That was deliberate. That was done on
[27:04] purpose. And now we're seeing These new
[27:06] uniforms, 2026,
[27:09] um, being unveiled, um, based
[27:12] on the uniforms from Starship Troopers
[27:15] and um,
[27:18] Star Wars. If you remember, um, the Empire
[27:21] uniforms were of a similar ilk. They
[27:24] are, look, don't get me wrong, they're quite
[27:26] striking, quite striking. But
[27:30] they immediately put you in um,
[27:33] a mindset of going, whoa.
[27:36] Professor Fred Watson: What?
[27:39] Andrew Dunkley: You're not impressed? You're just going,
[27:43] hello. What are we thinking here? Why are we
[27:46] doing it this way. That's kind of the
[27:49] reaction I had head.
[27:51] Professor Fred Watson: And me too. Um, when, when I saw
[27:54] it was the boots, I noticed first I thought,
[27:56] wait a minute, I've seen that sort of thing
[27:57] before.
[27:58] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, Jack Boots.
[27:59] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, exactly.
[28:00] Andrew Dunkley: More or less. Yeah, yeah, they're quite,
[28:02] um, I mean, I, I think
[28:05] uniforms are an amazing thing. Uh, I, I don't
[28:08] know where they originated. I, I did look it
[28:10] up once and I, I, I think it was the British
[28:13] or no, the Romans. The Romans, um, that
[28:16] invented uniforms. But, um,
[28:19] everybody has them now and, and some of them
[28:21] are incredible. I mean, uniforms for some
[28:23] reason make human beings look better
[28:27] somehow. Um, and
[28:31] these ones, I don't know if you're going to
[28:33] get the right kind of psychological
[28:36] reaction when, if they
[28:39] go down this road. And that's a, that's a big
[28:41] if, I guess.
[28:43] Professor Fred Watson: I don't know where this storey's going
[28:46] really, Andrew. And, um, you know, what
[28:49] we are likely to see coming out of the Space
[28:52] Force itself rather than just coming from the
[28:54] President's fertile, uh, mind.
[28:58] But, um, yes, I didn't find it
[29:00] something that cheered me up particularly.
[29:03] Uh, I thought it was very much along
[29:06] the lines that you've described something
[29:08] that we could probably well do with that.
[29:10] Uniformly so.
[29:11] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. But what I would say to, uh, Space
[29:14] Nuts listeners is have a look for yourself
[29:17] and be your own judge. Don't, you don't have
[29:19] to believe what we think. Um, we're just.
[29:23] As soon as I opened the storey that
[29:25] Fred Watson sent me, I went, what is this?
[29:29] Before I read a thing, I saw the picture and
[29:31] went, what are we looking at here? And then I
[29:34] read the caption and went, no,
[29:38] seriously. Ah, anyway, have a look.
[29:41] Uh, you can see it@, uh,
[29:43] spaceconnectonline.com
[29:46] it's um. Yeah, or just do
[29:49] a search through your favourite search engine
[29:51] of United States Space Force Service
[29:54] dress uniform, I think is what it's called.
[29:57] Um, and. Yeah, well,
[30:01] we'll leave it to you to decide what you
[30:03] think. Uh, ah, it's a
[30:06] difficult one because, uh, it's so divisive.
[30:09] Just that look in
[30:11] itself without saying anything, um, would
[30:14] be instantly divisive, I venture to
[30:17] say.
[30:18] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you're probably right.
[30:21] Um, yeah, to me
[30:24] it just portrays arrogance of a kind that,
[30:26] um, we could do without.
[30:28] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, possibly so.
[30:30] Professor Fred Watson: All right.
[30:31] Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yeah, As I said, spaceconnectonline.com
[30:34] if you want to cheque that out. And I think
[30:36] we are just about done.
[30:38] Fred Watson, thank you so much.
[30:39] Professor Fred Watson: It's a pleasure, Andrew. Always interesting
[30:41] to chew the fat over these issues, no matter
[30:43] what they are. We did get away from our
[30:46] normal stocking trade there, uh, with the
[30:48] uniforms. It's not often we talk about, uh,
[30:51] fashion in terms of, um, you know, space
[30:53] fashion, if I can put it that way.
[30:55] Andrew Dunkley: Well, that's what it is, isn't it, really?
[30:57] Space fashion.
[30:58] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
[30:58] Andrew Dunkley: Well, we've talked about the flight
[31:01] suits, certainly.
[31:02] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, we have.
[31:03] Andrew Dunkley: When they've done major upgrades on those and
[31:05] their incompatibility between space agencies,
[31:08] so.
[31:08] Professor Fred Watson: That's right.
[31:09] Andrew Dunkley: There's always controversy somewhere, even in
[31:12] fashion. Uh, thanks, Fred Watson. We'll catch
[31:14] you on the next episode.
[31:15] Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great.
[31:16] Andrew Dunkley: Thank you, Professor Fred Watson Watson,
[31:18] astronomer at large. And don't forget to
[31:20] visit us online between
[31:21] episodes@spacenutsio or
[31:24] spacenutspodcast.com and
[31:27] you can send us messages there through the
[31:29] Ask me anything link up the top, or you can
[31:30] visit the shop, or you can sign up for the,
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[31:36] and whatever you like. And if you want to
[31:38] become a supporter, you can hit the supporter
[31:39] button and see how you can do that too. And
[31:42] thanks to all our supporters, uh, for, uh,
[31:44] getting behind us with a cup of coffee and a
[31:47] cream bun.
[31:49] Uh, and thanks to Huw in the studio, uh, who
[31:51] couldn't, uh, be with us today. He wanted,
[31:53] uh, to be the first in line for a Space Force
[31:56] uniform. And he's still waiting.
[31:59] And from me, Andrew Dunkley, we'll catch you
[32:01] on the next episode of Space Nuts. Until
[32:03] then, bye bye. Space Nuts. You've been
[32:06] listening to the Space Nuts
[32:07] Professor Fred Watson: podcast,
[32:10] Andrew Dunkley: available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
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[32:19] this has been another quality podcast
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