# The Galaxy’s Sugary Center Could Change How Life Began

An episode of [Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries](https://invisiblenetwork.ai/podcast/1080090608), 13 Aug 2026, 28 min.

Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/op3.dev/e/api.spreaker.com/download/episode/73890268/utf_8_q_the_galaxy_e2_80_99s_sugary_center_co_utf_8_q_uld_change_how_life_began_mp3.mp3

This episode covers three very different astronomy stories and then moves into a lively Q&A with listener questions. Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson discuss a possible sugary molecule in the center of the Milky Way, the risk lunar landers may contaminate ice that could preserve clues to life’s origins, and a new way to track lost dogs using satellite connectivity. The second half of the episode answers questions about moons with atmospheres, secret astronomy, hot Jupiters, and black hole mergers. Key topics In this episode, Fred Watson explains an update from Peter Verweyen on MOND, now referred to as Aether Scalar Tensor Theory, and how it relates to dark matter and dark energy debates. We discuss the detection of erythrulose, a sugar molecule found in interstellar gas clouds near the center of the Milky Way, and why this matters for prebiotic chemistry. Fred describes how molecules like sugar can form in cold molecular clouds before stars and planets exist, making some ingredients for life surprisingly common. We discuss a new study warning that rocket exhaust from future lunar landings could contaminate ice in permanently shadowed craters at the Moon’s south pole. The Moon’s polar ice may contain ancient prebiotic molecules delivered by comets, asteroids, and dust, making it a possible time capsule for the chemistry that led to life. We discuss the practical and ethical problem that landers have to use rocket engines, and those exhaust plumes may spread methane and other organics across the lunar surface very quickly. Fred shares how satellite-based direct-to-cell or direct-to-mobile systems could help locate lost dogs in remote places without cell coverage. We discuss how this kind of tracking builds on existing GPS pet trackers, and how it could be useful in wilderness areas, while also noting the limits and concerns in national parks. Timestamps (00:00) Start of the episode and what’s coming up (03:12) MOND update and the new AEST name (07:10) A sugary molecule in the center of our galaxy (09:51) Why sugar can form in deep space before stars exist (12:24) Why lunar landings could contaminate the Moon’s ice (14:54) The Moon as a time capsule for prebiotic molecules (16:24) Methane exhaust and rapid contamination risk (18:37) Should the Moon be protected like a national park? (20:28) Satellite tracking for lost dogs in remote areas (24:52) Direct-to-mobile satellite technology explained (25:44) The Judas goat program and invasive species control Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts-astronomy-insights-cosmic-discoveries--2631155/support.

## Transcript

[0:00] Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks again for joining us. This
[0:02] is Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy, space
[0:05] science and anything else that tends to pop
[0:08] up. We've talked about trains, we've talked
[0:09] about movies, we've talked about dogs and
[0:12] cats and we might be talking about dogs
[0:14] today. In fact, we are, strangely enough,
[0:16] nothing to do with the Dog Star either. We're
[0:19] also, uh, going to talk about something quite
[0:21] sweet. We did Salty recently with the Pink
[0:24] Planet, but now we've found out, um,
[0:27] there's a sugary centre in our, uh, galaxy.
[0:30] And what might happen when we land on the
[0:33] moon again. Uh, it's not good news, as it
[0:35] turns out. We'll talk about all of that on
[0:37] this episode of space nuts.
[0:40] Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
[0:42] 10, 9. Ignition
[0:45] sequence start.
[0:46] Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.
[0:47] Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. 2, 3, 4,
[0:50] 5, 5, 4, 3, 2', 1.
[0:52] Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.
[0:53] Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.
[0:56] Andrew Dunkley: He's back again for more. I don't know how he
[0:58] keeps it up because, um, I don't know. I
[1:01] worked in radio for 40 years and lost my
[1:03] voice many times. So Fred Watson never loses
[1:05] his. It's Professor Fred Watson Watson,
[1:06] Astronomer at Large. Hello, Fred Watson.
[1:08] Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Um, you probably jinxed us
[1:11] now. I probably have coughing in the
[1:13] bathroom.
[1:14] Andrew Dunkley: One famous case I must tell you about. I
[1:16] worked for a rock station in Newcastle many
[1:18] years ago and I was doing a Saturday
[1:19] afternoon shift.
[1:21] Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
[1:21] Andrew Dunkley: And I must have had a virus of some kind
[1:23] that, that was sort of living underneath the
[1:26] radar. And during the progression
[1:29] of my four hour shift. Was it four or six?
[1:32] Might have been six. My voice just
[1:34] deteriorated and deteriorated to the point
[1:36] where I actually couldn't talk, couldn't make
[1:39] a sound. And the programme director
[1:42] rang and said, what's going on?
[1:43] Professor Fred Watson: I said.
[1:47] Andrew Dunkley: So he had to come in and take over from me.
[1:50] Was not happy. I mean, I can't.
[1:51] Professor Fred Watson: You can't help it. No, you can't. That's
[1:54] right, you can't help it.
[1:55] Andrew Dunkley: But, uh, yeah, that's one of my famous
[1:57] moments in radio. Or is it infamous? I don't
[2:00] know.
[2:00] Professor Fred Watson: Infamous. That's right, yeah.
[2:01] Andrew Dunkley: Amongst many. I should write a book.
[2:04] Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's what you need to do. Yes, you
[2:06] should, you should write a book.
[2:07] Andrew Dunkley: Because behind the scenes in radio, um, most
[2:09] people never know any of the stuff that
[2:11] happens. And some weird stuff happens. Yes,
[2:14] some very weird stuff.
[2:15] Professor Fred Watson: Yep, yep.
[2:16] Andrew Dunkley: Now, Fred Watson, uh. Oh, how are you, by the
[2:18] way?
[2:18] Professor Fred Watson: Oh, I'm fine, thank you. Uh, all good. Still
[2:20] supporting my, um, collision with the screen
[2:23] door the other night.
[2:24] Andrew Dunkley: But it's looking a little better.
[2:25] Professor Fred Watson: It's Getting better.
[2:27] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, the orbital rotation is starting to,
[2:30] you know, look less radical.
[2:33] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, no, it's good. Uh, I wear it with
[2:35] pride.
[2:36] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, you do. Um, at your age, though, it
[2:39] might take 10 years to fade.
[2:41] Now, um,
[2:44] before we get started, uh, we've received,
[2:46] um, a message from, um, uh, one of your,
[2:50] um, friends and colleagues.
[2:52] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, from Peter Verwein, who's our link
[2:55] with the world of Mondo Modified Newtonian
[2:57] Dynamics. I actually saw him, uh,
[3:01] last week at the, uh, Astronomical Society of
[3:03] Australia's annual science meeting and
[3:06] he said he'd dropped me a line with an update
[3:08] and I, uh, asked him if he'd mind if I read
[3:10] the update out on Space Notes. And he said
[3:12] no, he wouldn't. Uh, but he did preface it
[3:14] by, um, having, uh,
[3:17] mentioning that they'd heard from the
[3:20] originator of mond, Modified Newtonian
[3:22] Dynamics, Mordechai Milgrom, who,
[3:25] um, seems to be calling it something else
[3:27] now, uh, which was Ether
[3:30] Scalar tensor theory.
[3:31] Andrew Dunkley: Oh my goodness.
[3:32] Professor Fred Watson: Aest. Uh, yeah, uh,
[3:35] but, um, uh, he
[3:38] basically keeps going with his research.
[3:40] Although, um, Peter suspects he's
[3:43] suggesting that the theory needs a complete
[3:45] rethink, which apparently Peter's been doing
[3:48] as well. Let me read what he says though,
[3:50] because I think it's quite interesting for
[3:52] anybody who's been following this argument.
[3:54] Mond, of course, is an alternative theory,
[3:56] uh, of, um, basically
[3:59] gravity. Except it's not gravity, it's
[4:01] acceleration, uh, which postulates
[4:04] that at very low accelerations, uh,
[4:06] Newton's laws don't hold. The accelerations
[4:09] behave in a different way. Uh, and by
[4:12] very low, I mean the kind of accelerations
[4:14] that you get outside. Um,
[4:17] sorry, in terms of the movement of
[4:20] objects around a galaxy, uh, things in the
[4:23] solar system are accelerating too rapidly for
[4:26] this to show up. That was the original
[4:28] premise. And it's of course, uh, an
[4:30] explanation for why galaxies don't fly apart
[4:34] as we think they should, because they're
[4:36] rotating too fast for what we can see to hold
[4:38] them together. And of course that's why we
[4:41] postulate dark matter, the stuff that we
[4:43] think is invisible but does hold them
[4:45] together. So, reading from Peter's
[4:47] email, uh, he says in a very vague sense
[4:50] the universe might be like an onion, a bit
[4:53] like Shrek, if you know the movie reference.
[4:56] Imagine a bubble universe expanding from
[4:58] within its progenitor universe. In this case,
[5:01] the word universe can still be because like
[5:04] an onion over time as bubble universes
[5:06] explode into existence. Yes, like a Big Bang.
[5:09] Within the universe we get layers.
[5:11] Penrose's book, Cycles of Time
[5:14] explains the concept of a cyclic universe
[5:16] quite well, but he does some mathematical
[5:19] magic with how he handles scaling.
[5:22] Our idea is similar but offers an alternative
[5:25] explanation as to why these bubbles explode
[5:27] in the first place. And uh, as our
[5:30] idea develops, not a theory yet, we are
[5:33] noting similarities to other theories and
[5:35] models like K essence, which,
[5:38] um, I haven't heard of. And I bet you haven't
[5:40] either, Andrew. No, um, there's much to do to
[5:43] fully develop this into a theory that
[5:45] explains dark energy and dark matter. But one
[5:47] thing to note, looking for evidence of
[5:49] modified gravity around a black hole should
[5:52] be like looking for a needle in a needle
[5:54] stack. That's why the paper reporting
[5:57] mass discrepancies around supermassive black
[6:00] holes might put a dampener on quite a few
[6:03] modified gravity ideas. And
[6:05] we actually covered that, that uh, it was uh,
[6:08] the evidence that there's stuff outside a
[6:11] black hole that is not normal matter.
[6:14] So thank you very much, Peter. Thanks for the
[6:16] update. And um, we'll continue
[6:19] to watch with interest what happens in the
[6:21] world of mond.
[6:22] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed.
[6:23] Professor Fred Watson: Oh, sorry, aast.
[6:25] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, as it's now called. Uh,
[6:28] yes, and lovely to hear from Peter as well.
[6:30] It's great that we get these little pieces of
[6:33] input from everyone
[6:36] and anyone
[6:37] Professor Fred Watson: friends around the world.
[6:38] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed. Let's get into our topics
[6:41] for today, Fred Watson.
[6:43] And our first one sort um of follows on
[6:45] from um, its uh,
[6:48] opposing, um, platform which was
[6:51] our salty pink planet, which we spoke about,
[6:54] um, uh, a few episodes back.
[6:57] This uh, is at the opposite end of the
[6:59] scale. We're going from salty to very sweet,
[7:03] uh, because it looks like our galaxy has a
[7:05] sugary centre. Now what's interesting to
[7:08] me, Fred Watson, is that sugar in the
[7:11] universe is not uncommon.
[7:13] Professor Fred Watson: It's not. That's right. Uh, we've
[7:16] found it apparently, um, in
[7:19] um, asteroids actually.
[7:21] Andrew Dunkley: Uh, and wait for it. That's why
[7:24] the universe is expanding at an accelerating
[7:26] rate.
[7:29] Professor Fred Watson: Well, that could be one explanation. That's
[7:31] right. And it's certainly the waistline
[7:33] that's expanding. Uh, so yes,
[7:37] uh, it's a sugar. There are, there are. Sugar
[7:39] comes in different varieties. It's basically
[7:41] a chemical, um, defined by the
[7:44] number of carbon atoms there are in it
[7:47] and how it combines with other atoms. So
[7:50] this particular one is called
[7:52] erythrulose. I'm not sure whether I'm
[7:55] pronouncing that correctly, but that's what
[7:56] it looks like. Um, and its chemical formula
[7:59] is C4H8O4. So
[8:02] four atoms each of carbon and oxygen and
[8:04] eight of hydrogen. Um, so,
[8:08] uh, it Comes under a classification known as
[8:10] ketos. I've heard of those. As you know, I'm
[8:13] not a chemist.
[8:13] Andrew Dunkley: So isn't there a keto diet or am I getting
[8:16] that mixed up with something?
[8:17] Professor Fred Watson: It could be, yeah, yeah, could be all sorts
[8:20] of things. All sorts of diets these days.
[8:22] Yes. But it, but it's this time.
[8:24] These molecules of sugar have been
[8:27] detected in interstellar space rather
[8:30] than, you know, in, um, uh,
[8:33] meteorites or asteroid samples or whatever.
[8:36] Uh, and those gas clouds where
[8:39] they've been detected are actually near the
[8:42] centre of our galaxy. So it seems
[8:45] that it is probably something quite
[8:47] ubiquitous in the galaxy. Uh,
[8:50] um. It's a particular class of sugar and
[8:53] I'm sure you've noted that it is actually the
[8:56] same sugar that you find in raspberries.
[8:58] Andrew Dunkley: Yes.
[8:59] Professor Fred Watson: Uh, which, um. Yeah, it's just.
[9:01] It's bizarre, isn't it? I don't know why
[9:03] we're surprised, because. No, that's right.
[9:05] Andrew Dunkley: We are made up of the stuff of the universe,
[9:07] so it stands to reason.
[9:10] Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that's correct. Uh, and, uh, yes, it
[9:13] does. And, um. So basically,
[9:16] you know, uh, sugar is one of the.
[9:19] What you might call a prebiotic here. I'm
[9:22] losing my voice after our conversation
[9:23] before, what we might call a
[9:26] prebiotic molecule, um, one
[9:28] that, uh, is what we do, loosely termed
[9:31] part of the building blocks of life. But
[9:33] they, you know, these key ingredients of life
[9:36] basically conform deep in the
[9:39] universe, uh, in these, what are called
[9:42] molecular clouds, uh, giant molecular
[9:45] clouds, molecular nebulae, uh, and
[9:47] you can get them before stars and planets
[9:50] form. That's the bottom line. So you don't
[9:52] need the planet formation process or the star
[9:55] formation process to synthesise sugar. It
[9:58] can happen in the cold of, uh, space.
[10:00] Andrew Dunkley: That's amazing.
[10:01] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. It's quite extraordinary.
[10:04] Um, uh, it's
[10:06] basically some research that's come from
[10:08] Spanish astronomers, using Spanish
[10:10] telescopes, I think, radio telescopes. Uh,
[10:13] so a very interesting piece of research and
[10:16] there's a sort of corollary which, uh,
[10:19] suggests that perhaps in the
[10:22] early universe, perhaps before the solar
[10:25] system formed, um, the
[10:27] residual gas cloud in
[10:30] which the solar system, um,
[10:33] formed had sugar in it, which
[10:36] suggests perhaps the young
[10:39] Earth and the young solar system was
[10:40] bombarded by these sugar molecules,
[10:43] uh, as the formation took place. We don't
[10:46] know that, but that's a suggestion that's
[10:48] been made. So, yeah, um, and there's a lot
[10:51] of it, uh, this stuff. So it's, uh, sitting
[10:54] there in the galactic centre, sweetening it
[10:56] very nicely.
[10:57] Andrew Dunkley: Amazing. And, uh, interesting. And I suppose
[11:00] it just adds one more flavour. Boom boom. To
[11:03] all of those things that are out there that
[11:05] we're learning are uh, very, very common now
[11:07] like water, uh, salt and
[11:10] iron and all this other
[11:12] stuff. It's all just part of
[11:15] the conglomeration we call the universe.
[11:18] And yeah, shouldn't be surprising that we've
[11:21] found sugar which um, will
[11:24] make a lot of people happy. There's a lot of
[11:26] sugar addicts out there.
[11:27] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, there's one sitting here.
[11:29] Andrew Dunkley: I'm one of them as well.
[11:30] Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
[11:31] Andrew Dunkley: M. My wife is more of the salty variety.
[11:34] Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yes.
[11:36] Andrew Dunkley: Uh, if you'd like to read all about it,
[11:38] there's a great article on the
[11:40] abc.net.au
[11:42] website about it. And uh, I'm guessing there
[11:45] was a paper published Fred Watson, which I
[11:47] have not been able to find while we've been
[11:49] talking.
[11:49] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, it's in nature astronomy.
[11:51] Andrew Dunkley: Of course it is. Yes. There you go. This is
[11:54] Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor
[11:57] Fred Watson Watson.
[12:00] Professor Fred Watson: I'm going to step off the land now.
[12:04] That's one small step for man,
[12:09] one biofuel for mankind.
[12:12] Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.
[12:14] Andrew Dunkley: Okay Fred Watson, let's uh, go back to the
[12:16] moon. It's uh, certainly getting a lot of
[12:19] attention at the moment with the Artemis
[12:20] missions and the, the Chines
[12:23] presence on the Moon at the moment. Uh, but
[12:26] there's a downside to all of this. We're
[12:28] putting people back on the Moon in the not
[12:31] too distant future. But uh,
[12:34] there's concern that this could mess a few
[12:36] things up. Particularly um, the way
[12:39] we might destroy evidence of the
[12:42] origins of life on Earth.
[12:44] Professor Fred Watson: Correct. Uh, and that's
[12:47] uh, all tied up with kind
[12:50] of the reason why um, we're going to the Moon
[12:52] in the first place. Uh, and that
[12:55] is uh, uh, certainly all the
[12:58] in terms of the Artemis mission.
[13:01] Uh, the
[13:04] cratered regions of the Moon's south pole. In
[13:07] particular the Moon's south polar region is
[13:09] very heavily cratered. It's mountainous and
[13:11] it's not a good place to land. But that's
[13:13] apparently where we're going to land. Uh, but
[13:15] uh, because of the fact that some of these
[13:18] deep craters ah are
[13:21] never illuminated by the sun, they're in
[13:23] perpetual shadow. Uh, we know,
[13:25] uh, at least we did deeply suspect or
[13:29] um, perhaps securely suspect that's the way
[13:31] to put it, uh, that um, they
[13:34] contain uh, ice and
[13:37] it's not just a guess. That comes from
[13:39] measurements that have been made particularly
[13:42] by orbiting spacecraft over the last um,
[13:44] decade or two. So we think there is
[13:47] ice and it's water ice frozen Water,
[13:50] uh, down there in these deep craters. Uh,
[13:53] and. But that ice could
[13:56] be a bit of a treasure trove
[14:00] of the stuff
[14:02] that would have been entrapped,
[14:05] uh, coming from space debris, dust,
[14:08] probably, uh, interstellar, interplanetary
[14:11] dust. Uh, there's probably stuff that hit
[14:13] from asteroids in the early history of the
[14:16] solar system and comets. Um,
[14:19] so we think there might be this trove of
[14:21] ancient molecules, again, a bit like what
[14:24] we've just been talking about, trapped in the
[14:26] ice near the southern polar regions or in
[14:29] the southern polar regions of the Moon.
[14:33] Um, and they're something that we'd really
[14:35] like to know about, um, because
[14:39] if we could, um, see some of these
[14:41] molecules, um, which no longer exist
[14:44] on the Earth because the Earth is a very
[14:46] dynamic geology and atmospheric
[14:49] physics. Um, they've been recycled,
[14:51] they've turned into life, they've done all
[14:53] their thing. But if we could find these
[14:55] prebiotic molecules on the Moon,
[14:58] uh, uh, that might be a way of
[15:01] seeing how they eventually combined and
[15:04] life emerged. Uh, that would be a
[15:07] sensational discovery to work out
[15:10] what triggers life. How does it start? Uh, we
[15:13] know that the prerequisites of life,
[15:16] molecular prerequisites, are, uh, sort
[15:19] of everywhere. But, uh, we don't know what
[15:21] the chemistry was like that caused life to
[15:23] come into being. So because the moon is
[15:27] almost like a time capsule in this regard,
[15:30] uh, we would like to preserve this ice, uh,
[15:33] and keep it safe. Um,
[15:36] so, uh, where it is now is fine.
[15:39] But the landing
[15:42] process of bringing a spacecraft down to the
[15:45] moon has an issue in
[15:48] relation to this ice and it is done by,
[15:51] um. This has been flagged because of
[15:53] computer modelling that's been carried out,
[15:56] uh, in the study that we're reporting. Um,
[15:59] and that modelling suggests
[16:03] that, uh, the
[16:05] exhaust that comes from the
[16:08] rockets, the motors that will be used to
[16:11] touch down on the moon, and there isn't
[16:13] really another way of doing it. You can't do
[16:16] a re entry like the shuttle did because
[16:18] there's no atmosphere to re enter. But the
[16:20] exhaust is rich in methane and
[16:23] that, uh, methane, apparently
[16:26] the modelling shows that it could very
[16:28] quickly and, and
[16:30] permanently contaminate the ice
[16:34] and basically get rid of any
[16:36] molecule, evidence, uh, that
[16:39] we would have found in them otherwise.
[16:42] Uh, the modelling suggests
[16:45] that, um, what are called
[16:48] the organic components, which are part of the
[16:51] exhaust of these lunar landers, would spread
[16:54] across the moon's surface very, very rapidly.
[16:57] Um, uh, and they basically
[17:00] studied, uh, how that would happen, including
[17:03] the radiation from the sun, including the
[17:05] solar wind. But there is a
[17:07] suggestion that that atmosphere
[17:10] that methane, uh, could very
[17:13] rapidly, uh, cover the whole of the lunar
[17:16] surface. Uh, the suggestion
[17:19] is possibly, uh, reaching from the
[17:21] moon's south pole to the north pole, uh,
[17:25] in less than a month or a couple of months.
[17:28] What we call two lun. Two lunar days. Yes.
[17:31] Very, very quickly.
[17:32] Professor Fred Watson: Wow.
[17:34] Andrew Dunkley: Uh, that's a bit scary. Uh, I was going to
[17:36] suggest, you know, we've spent all that money
[17:38] and time going to Mars looking for life and,
[17:40] you know, it might be next door.
[17:43] Um, but maybe not. If this keeps up, there's
[17:46] probably nothing much that can be done about
[17:48] it. Fred Watson.
[17:49] Professor Fred Watson: That's right. How do you, you know, how do
[17:51] you, um, essentially
[17:54] solve this problem? You can't glide down.
[17:57] It's got to be using rockets, um,
[18:00] and, um, a space elevator.
[18:03] Well, yes, the space elevator. There you go.
[18:05] But you. Yes. I think you've got.
[18:07] Andrew Dunkley: Too costly.
[18:09] Professor Fred Watson: You've got to put your rockets on the moon to
[18:10] start with, to do that. Well, that's the
[18:13] point. You can't just dangle it down.
[18:15] Andrew Dunkley: It's a catch 22.
[18:16] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. There's a comment here from, uh,
[18:19] one of the scientists involved with this, who
[18:21] is, uh, actually a Portuguese.
[18:24] Uh, we have laws regulating contamination
[18:27] of Earth, uh, environments like Antarctica
[18:29] and national parks. Uh, I think the moon is
[18:32] an environment as valuable as those. So the
[18:34] suggestion is, you know, maybe there should
[18:36] be laws protecting the moon. But the. As
[18:39] you said, what's the answer to that? Well,
[18:42] don't go there. That's really
[18:45] a, uh, very, very interesting piece of
[18:46] research. I'm sure this is going to promote,
[18:48] uh, or prompt a lot of conversation
[18:52] and perhaps debate about the ethics of this.
[18:54] And, uh, it'll be checked, I'm sure, very,
[18:57] very much, uh, very carefully,
[18:59] because that's a really important result.
[19:02] Andrew Dunkley: Yes. Uh, and look, they could
[19:05] introduce, uh, an international law
[19:08] saying, okay, moon's off limits. It's a
[19:10] national park. Can't go there. Um,
[19:13] but people will. Anyway, it's the same as we
[19:16] were talking about, um, recently with
[19:19] nuclear weapons. We already think they're up
[19:21] in space even though they're not allowed.
[19:23] Professor Fred Watson: Yep, Yep, that's right.
[19:25] Andrew Dunkley: So, you know, here's another one. So
[19:29] that's not going to work either.
[19:30] Professor Fred Watson: I think you're right.
[19:33] Uh, knowing human nature, I think you're
[19:35] right. And the world we live in today as
[19:37] well.
[19:38] Andrew Dunkley: Well, you know, it's, it's. It's the old, um,
[19:42] sign on the fence that says do not enter.
[19:44] Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
[19:45] Andrew Dunkley: You know, someone's going to ignore that.
[19:47] Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Oh, I better go and have a look.
[19:49] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
[19:49] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, but my Frisbee.
[19:51] Andrew Dunkley: I've got to get my Frisbee.
[19:52] Professor Fred Watson: Yes. What am I doing? What am I doing? Just
[19:55] for a segue.
[19:56] Andrew Dunkley: There. That's what we'll talk about next. But
[19:59] if you'd like to follow up on that storey,
[20:01] it's on the space.com website or you can read
[20:03] the study which was published in the journal,
[20:06] uh, the American Geophysical Union. This is
[20:09] Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor
[20:11] Fred Watson Watson.
[20:15] Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.
[20:17] Andrew Dunkley: Now, Fred Watson, uh, we're going to the
[20:18] dogs, um, lost dogs specifically. Now
[20:21] that's not uncommon, especially after a
[20:24] thunderstorm or a tornado. Um,
[20:28] and you often see signs around town. You
[20:31] know, have you seen my dog? There's a pretty
[20:33] picture of the dog on the top of the A4
[20:35] banner.
[20:36] Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
[20:37] Andrew Dunkley: But, um, when you're in an area,
[20:40] um, beyond. And there's technology around
[20:42] these days where you can put gps, um,
[20:45] or you can put trackers that require
[20:48] cell phone coverage and things like that on
[20:50] your dogs. Um, but that's not
[20:53] always practical. Um, but
[20:56] now there's a new way, and this is really
[20:58] quite fascinating about, uh, using, uh,
[21:01] GPS systems, satellite systems
[21:05] to connect to your dog's collar.
[21:07] Professor Fred Watson: Yes. So you're right,
[21:10] that's the perfect intro because, um, these
[21:13] devices do exist. Of course. There's um, you
[21:15] know, many of us have got air tags that we
[21:18] use to keep tracks on, ah, our luggage
[21:21] and, and things of that sort. Um,
[21:24] and um, we can certainly
[21:27] find one of those if it's hanging around your
[21:30] dog's neck. Uh, actually our dog doesn't have
[21:33] one. Uh, but um, most of my other
[21:35] stuff does, uh, which doesn't walk away,
[21:38] it just gets left behind. Uh, but the
[21:41] issue arises that if you're away
[21:44] from a, ah, sort of standard suburban area
[21:47] and you really are exploring the wilderness,
[21:50] uh, you're nowhere near a cell tower. And
[21:53] that means that these devices simply don't
[21:55] work. You can't locate your possession or
[21:58] your dog. Uh, and so this
[22:01] storey is basically about
[22:04] how you can use,
[22:07] guess what, the Starlink technology, uh,
[22:11] um, to essentially find
[22:13] your dog even when it's not in
[22:16] a, uh, a place covered by a
[22:19] cellular network. So,
[22:22] uh, that's rather an interesting
[22:25] thing because it means that if you are in the
[22:27] middle of nowhere, uh, no phone
[22:30] coverage, uh, your dog gets lost, you
[22:33] can find it. But if you haven't got phone
[22:34] coverage, you're not going to know where it
[22:36] is. So you've got to have a satellite phone
[22:38] as well. Um, so if you've got that,
[22:41] um, then you can find your dog. Now, um,
[22:44] I am assuming that this relates to places
[22:47] where it's not illegal to take your dog into
[22:50] wilderness areas, uh, as it is in
[22:53] much of Australia, because of the fact that
[22:56] we do have endangered species,
[22:59] uh, all through our country. And so dogs are
[23:01] the last thing that you want. Yeah, we have
[23:03] dog fences, in fact, don't we?
[23:05] Andrew Dunkley: We do. We do have dog fences and rabbit
[23:07] fences and all sorts of things to stop the
[23:09] nasties getting through.
[23:10] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
[23:11] Andrew Dunkley: Um, Jordie would not need this kind of
[23:13] technology because when he barks in sy.
[23:16] Sydney, I can hear him 300 miles away.
[23:19] Professor Fred Watson: He just does one of his howls and everybody
[23:22] knows.
[23:22] Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, the whole district knows. Yeah.
[23:24] Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
[23:25] Andrew Dunkley: Um, that. That's not an uncommon
[23:28] issue in, um, residential areas.
[23:31] Uh, the dog barking problems. Um,
[23:35] so this is a fairly new thing from what I've
[23:38] read, because, uh, it sort of came on
[23:41] the back of the Starlink technology.
[23:44] Um, but it's also a
[23:46] fairly simple thing, I suppose. Uh, if
[23:49] you are out in the wilderness and there's no
[23:51] mobile coverage and your dog chases a bear or
[23:54] whatever, this could
[23:57] save its life.
[23:59] Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's correct, yes. Uh,
[24:02] I guess that's the good side of the storey.
[24:05] So, um, there have
[24:08] been animal
[24:11] trackers for a while. Apparently, uh, 11
[24:14] million dogs tracked or monitored by
[24:16] GPS in some form. Is that true, uh,
[24:20] throughout the world? Yeah. That doesn't
[24:21] surprise me there. There's a lot of dogs in
[24:23] the world. But, um, this is a step,
[24:26] you know, a step further, this, uh, this new
[24:28] connectivity, uh, because it's a. It's
[24:31] a bit like, um,
[24:34] D2M, which is direct to mobile
[24:37] from using satellites. If you've got
[24:39] direct to mobile, then you've basically got a
[24:41] satellite phone and I think Starlink,
[24:44] um, um, bringing that out quite soon, if they
[24:47] haven't done already. So it's that sort of
[24:50] technology. It's the direct to mobile or
[24:52] direct to cell technology, uh, that,
[24:55] um. That you can now adapt to dogs,
[24:57] apparently.
[24:58] Andrew Dunkley: Well, now that's a good thing because dogs do
[25:00] run away. They get excited and they wander
[25:03] off and. Or they. Or they meet another dog
[25:05] and next thing you know they're in Siberia.
[25:09] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, it's happened. It
[25:12] has, yeah.
[25:13] Andrew Dunkley: This reminds me of something that was done
[25:15] many, many years ago, uh, up around
[25:18] the, uh, Warren Bungles. Uh, we used to live,
[25:21] uh, in Cootabarabra and
[25:24] it was, uh, uh,
[25:26] the Judas Goat programme. You remember that?
[25:30] Judas, uh, goats.
[25:31] Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I do. I do remember that.
[25:33] Andrew Dunkley: Goats are an invasive species and they cause
[25:36] a lot of damage. In national parks in
[25:38] Australia. So what the National Park Service
[25:40] did was they would put, uh,
[25:43] a tracking collar. Collar, a GPS collar
[25:46] on a goat and they would release the
[25:49] goat into the national park,
[25:51] knowing that it would eventually find a herd
[25:54] of feral goats.
[25:55] Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
[25:56] Andrew Dunkley: And then they could go in and.
[25:58] Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
[25:58] Andrew Dunkley: Let's just say deal with them.
[26:00] Professor Fred Watson: They do deal with them. They use helicopters
[26:02] as well.
[26:02] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, they do. So the, the old Judas
[26:05] goat.
[26:05] Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
[26:06] Andrew Dunkley: Was, um, using, uh, this kind
[26:09] of technology, but, uh, now it's more freely
[26:11] available for, um, for. For domestic
[26:13] purposes, I suppose, Fred Watson.
[26:15] Professor Fred Watson: That's right. For, um. Yes, for
[26:18] other invasive species like dogs and cats.
[26:22] Andrew Dunkley: Absolutely. Yeah.
[26:24] Professor Fred Watson: Keep them, Keep them out of the national
[26:25] parks.
[26:26] Andrew Dunkley: Indeed. Uh, really interesting storey. That
[26:28] one is also on space.com but,
[26:31] um, there's every chance that, um, you
[26:34] know, if you're in the right part of the
[26:36] world, you might be using this technology
[26:38] already. Apparently 11 million dogs do.
[26:42] Professor Fred Watson: Ah.
[26:42] Andrew Dunkley: Uh, gosh, um, I think that brings us to the
[26:45] end, Fred Watson. That was quick.
[26:47] Professor Fred Watson: It was quick. Uh, and, um, that's
[26:51] kind, uh, of brought us up to date, I think,
[26:52] hasn't it, with life, the universe and
[26:54] everything.
[26:55] Andrew Dunkley: Yes, indeed, yes. Um, anyway, thank you
[26:58] very much. We will catch you on the next
[26:59] episode, uh, coming soon.
[27:02] Professor Fred Watson: Sounds good. I'll look forward to it. Andrew.
[27:04] All the best.
[27:05] Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at
[27:07] large, part of the team here at Space Nuts,
[27:09] and thanks to Huw in the studio. Uh, Huw
[27:11] could. Couldn't be with us today. Tends to
[27:14] wander off and his wife's fitting, um, a
[27:16] GPS collar to him as we
[27:19] speak. Uh, and don't forget to visit our
[27:22] website, uh, between episodes, Spacenuts
[27:24] I.O. and From Me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks for
[27:27] your company. We'll be back with a new
[27:28] episode real soon. See you then.
[27:30] Professor Fred Watson: Bye Bye.
[27:32] Andrew Dunkley: You've been listening to the Space Nuts
[27:34] podcast, available
[27:37] at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
[27:40] iHeartRadio or your favourite podcast
[27:42] player. You can also stream on
[27:44] demand@bytes.com M.
[27:46] Professor Fred Watson: This has been another quality podcast
[27:48] production from bytes.com.

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